Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 14: Under the Bridge - Remastered | Archaludon Banned

Yoda2798

Yoda2798

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:sv/archaludon:

Following the results of the most recent tiering survey, Archaludon received overwhelming suspect support, so is being put under the microscope once again!

Much of what was said in the Archaludon suspect test last year still stands, so I won't retread the same ground in too much detail. To summarise the last thread: Archaludon is a Pokemon which can rack up Defense boosts with Stamina in combination with its useful defensive typing, doubling as offensive boosts with Body Press; while having unique access to Electro Shot as a powerful snowball attack on the special side. However, Archaludon deals limited damage without boosts and is vulnerable on the specially defensive side even with boosts, almost necessitating Assault Vest, while still requiring committing Tera on top to deal with attacks like Landorus' Earth Power or Chien-Pao's Sacred Sword. Electro Shot's reliance on Rain also means Archaludon requires either Pelipper to switch in or Tornadus to manually set weather to unlock its full potential, and can make matchups into other weathers such as Snow tricky.

The biggest change since the previous Archaludon suspect test is the rise of Sinistcha as a partner. The two have a synergy that is obvious immediately from typing: Sinistcha is immune to one of Archaludon's weaknesses in Fighting, and resists the other in Ground, which with Rage Powder means safely redirecting dangerous attacks such as the aforementioned examples of Earth Power from Landorus or Sacred Sword from Chien-Pao. In the case of Landorus it can't really touch Sinistcha whatever attack it clicks, but even in the case of Chien-Pao, or something else like Iron Hands where it will typically have a coverage move to hit Sinistcha as well, just the threat of Rage Powder can often make the opponent use those moves instead of the one which threatens Archaludon, letting Sinistcha get away with using another move for free. Trick Room benefits Archaludon greatly, as outside of opposing Trick Room teams it only really needs to be wary of Iron Hands underspeeding and threatening it, while the remaining majority of the Pokemon that can threaten Archaludon outspeed it and so will move after. For these reasons, Sinistcha can delay or occasionally prevent entirely the need for Archaludon to Tera, letting it benefit from the many resists of its base typing while stacking Stamina boosts first. Hospitality is an incredible bonus for Archaludon, as even if Sinistcha is not currently on the field to redirect, there is always the option for Archaludon to immediately gain 25% HP no matter what Pokemon is in the other slot. This can swing turns from death for Archaludon to it surviving and running away with the game. With the ability to repeatedly switch in and out to reactivate Hospitality, and access to Life Dew as well, the extended amounts of healing Sinistcha provides are a complete gamechanger for Archaludon's ability to stay healthy. Rather than being able to wear Archaludon down over time, with it having little hopes to win the game from below 50% HP or so, the potential to bring it back up from low HP makes it far more reliable as a win condition.

However, the fundamental problem of Archaludon teams remains, with the number of support Pokemon required to function effectively and the general passivity that brings. With Tera generally needing to be committed to Archaludon as well, and some teams even opting for Grimmsnarl as well for screens support, newer Archaludon teams rely on it more than ever, providing more support in the hope it succeeds, but with even less of a backup plan if it fails. While an Archaludon sitting beside Sinistcha can be more difficult to hit directly, there are still ways to deal with it, the most reliable counterplay being to use strong special attacks. Landorus can use Sandsear Storm to threaten Archaludon even with redirection, while other strong spread attackers such as Gholdengo, Kyurem, and Regidrago can also cause the pair problems. If Sinistcha can be taken down then Archaludon loses its ability to heal, making it easier to take down over the course of a game. Archaludon also still largely struggles with the same other weaknesses as mentioned in the previous thread: its weakness to Chien-Pao's Sacred Sword; being vulnerable to Amoonguss shutting it down; and its reliance on Electro Shot and therefore Rain being up being exploitable by other weathers. Most importantly, the general gameplan against Archaludon remains the same: Archaludon is very reliant on acquiring multiple boosts, so preventing that from happening, such as avoiding hitting into it for Stamina boosts, will greatly limit its potential to run away with the game.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Archaludon.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in DOU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played DOU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, bagel, or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me/bagel or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2980 (using a B value of 5 - you do not need to worry about this).
The suspect laddering period is now underway and the deadline for getting requirements is Sunday, February 16th 8:00 PM Eastern Time (GMT-5).

Additionally there will be 2 live suspect tournaments in the Smogon Doubles Showdown room. The winner of each of these tournaments will qualify for suspect voting, and should reach out to me, bagel or another member of staff so we can verify and add them to the voting pool.

Suspect Tournament Times
Saturday, 8th February at 12:00 PM PM Eastern time (GMT-5)
Sunday, 9th February at 4:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)

Archaludon will be legal during this suspect.
 
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Yoda2798 said:
Landorus can use Sandsear Storm to threaten Archaludon even with redirection, while other strong spread attackers such as Gholdengo, Kyurem, and Regidrago can also cause the pair problems. If Sinistcha can be taken down then Archaludon loses its ability to heal, making it easier to take down over the course of a game. Archaludon also still largely struggles with the same other weaknesses as mentioned in the previous thread: its weakness to Chien-Pao's Sacred Sword; being vulnerable to Amoonguss shutting it down; and its reliance on Electro Shot and therefore Rain being up being exploitable by other weathers.
Click to expand...
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sandsear Storm vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 265-312 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 198-234 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 150-178 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+4 112+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 276-325 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

16+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 228-268 (71.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem: 276-326 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 16+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Gholdengo: 199-235 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It should be abundantly clear at this point that archaludon has no issue outtrading all of its checks at neutral, let alone when it is boosted, which it will be more often than not since there is no way to prevent electro shot boosts barring weather control. And it should go without saying that this issue is exacerbated by the ludicrous healing and protection afforded by sinistcha. It has become incredibly easy to compress the necessary support for archaludon to 2 or 3 teamslots max, giving room for swift swimmers in Kingdra or Basculegion or other rain abusers such as offensive wellspring and genies to round out teams with more silly threats to break down Archaludon's "checks".

I said in the last suspect thread
Schister said:
However we cannot ban a pokemon on theoretical usage, that would just be absurd, and as such I do not currently believe that Archaludon is banworthy. I know that sentence will disappoint some of my comrades, but as the metagame stands archaludon is not providing significant enough strain upon tournament play to warrant a ban in my eyes, though future developments and efforts could very easily push it to that level. Archaludon is in my eyes the least developed tier 2 pokemon in the format and I would be remiss to fail to mention that it could very well cause problems in the future should the metagame shift around developments the benefit (such as ting lu rising in popularity lately).
Click to expand...
Archaludon has since developed a fully functional and self-sufficient core with Pelipper and Sinistcha that largely performs into most of the metagame, and mainly seeks to hammer down on the pao snow and genies matchups a little harder with the remaining slots on the team. This means that arch teams are incredibly flexible and dangerous, as half their team structure is specifically dedicated to demolishing arch checks on top of sinistcha doing a fantastic job minimizing the impact of said checks with incomparable levels of support utility. Any team that looks even a little weak to arch will have a herculean struggle into the archetype, and every good team in the format currently needs to double or triple down on arch counterplay. I would mention tera but I feel that most arch checks can actually deal with arch teraing pretty effectively thanks to good natural coverage, and arch's base typing is so absurdly good that teraing often puts you at risk of taking too much damage from other pokemon such as torn, but as stated in the OP arch often does not need to tera to perform in games anymore.

I think a ban vote should be abundantly clear to all, I feel like the main reason this thing stuck around last suspect was purely because of the lack of development around it, something that has certainly changed. If you truly enjoy this metagame and plan to vote do not ban, I can respect that, but today I encourage everyone to VOTE BAN.
 
Just got recs so I now can legally speak on this.

Archaludon is definitely good, but from my SV experience; I have mixed feelings.

I did not play or play versus Arch + Sinistcha (I used a rain team featuring the Lando-I and Torn-I Tailwind). If someone could provide replays of this team [which seems to be apparently the reason it is being re-suspected], I'd love to see it. Because Rage Powder and Follow Me do seem to have the ability to make it overwhelming once it sets up.

Thoughts on if I should ban:

I think it is really good with trading; you will never not trade with Arch at neutral even with most of its checks and counters. It feels like it is easy to just click button; assuming you have rain. Once it is set up, you have to commit to try to kill it.

I think if it was just not boosted with an electric Solar Beam, it'd be fine though; strong in rain, yes, but it'd have enough counters. But the fact Electro Shot gives you special attack and Stamina is a bit absurd. You literally become unkillable physically. I would use my Rilaboom to U-turn on my Arch if I did not have a good target U-turn to versus my opponent. Because getting a +1 Def boost that will be healed off as soon as grassy terrain heals is so worth it.

Your weaknesses can be negated. Rain makes fire not neutral damage to you; Grassy Terrain makes ground not as effective (Other than the Landos).

The final point I can make is 1 good tera can just be an autowin; Suddenly Landorus-I can't kill you; Fighting types no longer destroy you. And in the case of fighting types; they just gave you +1 defense. That can be unhealthy, and losing a turn versus Arch is an autoloss in some cases.


Thoughts on if I shouldn't ban:

Arch by itself is fine, and its checks and counters can still kill it, even with tera. You do need support mons to make it truly good. If you don't have rain you just get walled by mons you need Electroshot to kill. (For me, I had Pelipper and RD Torndous-I so this wasn't a problem.) Its speed makes it only truly excel mostly in Tailwind or Trick Room to outspeed opposing mons and not risk chip; and honestly most Trick Room mons kill you or force tera (Then kill you afterwards in some cases lol). Then for Tailwind if your opponent is also Tailwind offense there is a chance that you just lose to their still faster mons. (Shoutouts to that ladder demon with majority 100-110 base speed Pokemons still running Tailwind)

As the post says you NEED support for it to be broken. I saw two players use Arch without rain and I just was confused on why they would limit themselves so poorly. Which actually gets to my next point since one of them had a bad set....

Arch has one moveset. Body Press, Electro Shot; a dragon move, and usually Flash Cannon. While some will deviate from Flash Cannon, if you do so you will most likely get walled by fairy types at neutral if you do that. This allows you to have a great understanding on what it will do and make some good outplays. (Counter teras, good switches, etc.)

Final one is greedy; but I myself never had troubles with Arch; I've always been able to kill it myself. However, I often only play and watch tours of Vintage doubles tournaments, so it is hard for me to truly say "Oh it's not an issue," when my biggest SV Opponent is Ladder Demon #4214. So I am VERY open to replays of either side showing me either why or why not Arch should be banned, to help influence my final decision.

Bad: If you face a sun; hail, or sand team. You will not have rain as much; weaking you in the proccess. Arch doesn't like getting demolished by sun-boosted fire attacks; and You don't really appreciate blizzards


Biased: I love doubles weather; from gen 4 and 5 hailroom; to charizard in gens 6-7 to tyranitar teams to rain cores throughout the years. The only RMT I ever made is a sun team. And if rain loses arch.... It'll be fine probably, It still has a lot of good rain mons and I love genie rain honestly. So if I vote to ban it'll be a bit bittersweet if it does get banned; since I do enjoy it.

All things considered I'm leaning DNB as personal experience wins out versus situations I never expirienced, but I am very open to changing my mind.

Sorry for basically posting a nothing burger just wanted to get my thoughts through (May edit if I see reason to adjust my thoughts or add someone lol)
 
I made a quick video ranting about my thoughts on Archaludon and its place in the metagame. If you wanna check that out:

If you'd prefer a text summary of my thoughts, click the hide tag
  • Archaludon teams are imo the most optimized team in the metagame at present, and that all starts with Archaludon itself. Looking at something like Pelipper Archaludon Landorus-I Sinistcha, you find a core 4 that is able to operate on multiple ends of the speed tiers with Scarf Lando-I, TR Sinistcha, and occasionally Tailwind Pelipper. This makes outpacing the team really difficult and a challenging test of positioning.
  • A variety of viable Tera types make Archaludon unpredictable, and gives the user a stronger advantage over the foe
  • Similarly, playing defensively around these teams is quite difficult. The offensive coverage on offer is just too hard to play around, even with terastallization, making pins very easy to find for the Arch Rain pilot.
  • Arch Rain puts opponents in a tough dilemma. Passive actions can be punished heavily by Electro Shot, but insufficient attempts at offense only serve to give it a Stamina boost and progress can ultimately be undone by Sinistcha or Amoonguss.
  • The strain this Archetype puts on the teambuilder feels too restrictive. Having a Landorus or Ursaluna is simply not enough in the current metagame, which is often what was cited as sufficient counterplay last time. Snow has a positive matchup on paper but the margin is thinner than most would expect when backed by a strong pilot, and manual Sunny Day teams can be fishy. Torkoal and Tyranitar are very shaky brings in the modern meta to start with.

In conclusion, I'll be voting ban.
 
bringing the BOOM to archaludon!

first ever time qualifying for suspect reqs (with my fave alt too)! overall wasn't bad, i used this sample team for low ladder and then realized it had absolutely 0 mu into arch. spammed variations of CM Bolt Balance for basically the rest of my reqs (shoutout to @<iPetBigfoot> for passing teams).

overall, i think Archaludon is not the most absurdly broken mon on its own and it does struggle with a decent amount of mons (Lando-I, sometimes Chien-Pao, Bolt, Kyurem, etc) it can easily overcome those mons with very limited skill required. Matcha Guy has proven itself to be an invaluable and annoying partner, protecting the bridge from all manner of special attacks with redirection and healing, and its best friend Pelliper giving it wide guard support and water STAB for its biggest check, Lando-I. i think, overall, Archaludon does not introduce any healthy dynamics to the tier and is generally a decently large strain on the teambuilder. I will be voting Ban.

flexing my peak alt name:
Image 2-10-25 at 9.04 PM.jpeg
 
I kinda wanted to write about Archaludon too so i am doing so lol

To preface, I will be voting BAN.

For one, I think Archaludon really restricts teambuilding. With a lot of the tier 1 pokemon, you can account for them with specific pokemon, while also trading fairly well with a number of other pokemon. Archaludon is a pokemon that requires very specific pokemon to counter, and not a lot of stuff outside of that trades very well.

The best pokemon into archaludon are probably Chien-Pao and Landorus. While those pokemon are good into it, they face many struggles. Chien-Pao itself is incredibly frail and only really threatens with Sacred Sword. If you get the turn wrong and they tera, Chien-Pao is prone to dying immediately. Landorus is in a similar boat. With Archaludon commonly being ran on rain teams, Landorus has tons of other things to worry about. There are other pokemon that can threaten Archaludon such as Ursaluna, but frankly those pokemon don't fit on most team structures.


The nature of Stanima is also interesting. Previously exclusive to Mudsdale, it didn't get used a lot outside of early sm vgc. Now it is on a pokemon with real stats. This discourages players to actually attack Arch, and unlike Mudsdale, Arch has a boosting attack. While you are trying to avoid boosting Arch to unkillable status, it can be actively gaining boosts. This in my eyes, is unhealthy gameplay.


I have no idea how to wrap this up lmao thanks for reading
 
Just qualified, so time for me to make my statement.

As you can tell by my showdown name during this laddering period (ban steel bridge), I don't like Archaludon. It is super bulky and really strong with so much versatility and variability in its sets, specifically its Tera and unique options like Sturdy, Snarl, etc.

It also just doesn't lose to its threats. Btw I took a team from the team bazaar to ladder, torkoal is mad fun.

Anyways, I will be voting ban.
 
This is the first time I've completed suspect reqs, so I think I'm finally qualified enough to talk about it. Here's the team I've been using for the entirety of the suspect if you're interested.

Screenshot 2025-02-11 7.12.04 AM.png


Overall, I don't think Archaludon itself is an extremely broken threat, but the team core of Sinistcha+Archaludon can restrict teambuilding, and Sinistcha solves most of Arch's checks like Iron Hands or Landorus, and can completely undo any damage dealt to Arch. Stamina is also just broken when you factor in Arch's really good base defense and great natural typing, which makes it discourage dealing sufficient damage to Arch, and if you ignore it completely Arch can overwhelm and snowball with Electro Shot when you're actively trying to avoid attacking it. Like Jazz721 said earlier, this is unhealthy gameplay. Arch's versatility with Tera types and unique sets like Sturdy + Power Herb can make it unpredictable and even harder to manage.
Idk about the stuff I said made sense, but for these reasons I will be voting to ban Archaludon.
 
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I think the problems with sv run deeper than just archaludon, but this is a good start. Sinistcha is probably the more broken element imo, and if that gets banned later down the line, maybe we can see an arch retest? As it stands right now, I don't think this combo is remotely reasonable to prep for, and I will be voting ban on arch.
 
Have recently gotten reqs, and I'll confidently be voting ban.

Archaludon's checks all just lose if its at +1 and its a mon that moves the metagame in a very unhealthy way. It already owns the two priority sample teams almost completely by itself, and seems to promote HO that denies it many opportunities to cycle heals and set up. Just when you think one check severely damaged it (Landorus, Regidrago, Gholdengo) so that you can pick up the kill later:
Go! Sinistcha!
[Sinistcha's Hospitality]
Archaludon drank down all the matcha that Sinistcha made!

(Rain continues to fall.)
The opposing Chien-Pao's HP was restored.
Archaludon's HP was restored.

Actually seems impossible to defend, I thought even Deoxys-A was more tolerable tbh, since it was at least reliant on getting kills, and you could handle it semi-decently with the right speed control or defensive Pokemon, felt like it was significantly less of a strain. Archaludon just doesn't care and its suddenly +3 Def +3 SpA at 75% HP.

Reqs team: https://pokepast.es/fabdad472889abe2, have fun and hate Archaludon.
 
I'm happy to see this suspect happening and I do think that Archaludon rain archetypes are overpowered right now, but I also think that people have realized how strong Sinistcha is at supporting bulky setup sweepers in general. Right now Archaludon just happens to be the #1 best available partner for Sinistcha, sharing exceptionally strong type synergy and benefiting immensely from rain.

Still, it is hard to ignore how some of Archaludon's calcs, both defensively and offensively, snowball throughout a well-played game when it is kept alive, so I will be voting ban. But I will also be watching Sinistcha with interest moving forward and seeing what other partners might take Archaludon's place in its absence.

Here's my reqs team - ironically Azumarill put in more work than Archaludon :smogduck:
 
Just hit reqs and I will be voting ban! Optimized Arch teams obscenely good at protecting the bridge and play off its strengths way too well way too easily. In my opinion, Archaludon makes the game less fun and building less fun. As someone who started playing the tier back in May of last year, it is scary how quickly arch teams rose to prominence once people started developing better teams around it. Also I don't believe sinis is particularly unfair, just very good at its job and probably was underrated up until around DWCOP. I certainly don't believe it to be banworthy.

More importantly however, I had made this team as an anti-arch hardroom psyspam based on Hugo's iconic "Hugo Room" hardroom psyspam team sometime during DWCOP. Based on the general trend of this thread I believe this team will be obsolete in a few days and so I would like to bestow upon the world:

Hugo Room 2: Irregular Show
 
Here’s what I wrote last time we suspected Archaludon

If you had asked me over a month ago, I probably would have been leaning ban on Archaludon, since at the time it felt like the only checks were like Landorus/Ursalunas or Iron Hands before Archaludon gets defense boosts. Even then, Archaludon can of course Tera to beat these matchups, but then forcing an early Tera on their wincon can often be an advatangeous position for Archaludon’s opponent.

But since then there’s been proven a lot of other different ways to beat Archaludon, such as having opposing weather (hail especially) to prevent it from getting off ElectroShots, setting up a strong special attackers first that can often Tera if needed to beat it like MB Glimmora CM Raging Bolt, NP Gholdengo, etc. Then there’s even some physical attackers that can beat it if they set up first like SD Kingambit or SD Iron Hands. Beyond that you can just have strong special attackers like Regidrago or Walking Wake that can just chunk it hard.

There’s even some more tech options that have been gaining popularity like Whirlwind Ting-Lu, Sacred Sword mons, and this isn’t even counting ragepowder mons like Amoonguss & Sinistcha that can redirect Archaludon’s Electro Shot, and Amoonguss can also spore it.

All in all, there’s just enough in the metagame to be able to beat it, and this is further evidenced by as others have pointed out it’s slightly dwindling popularity. Do Not Ban.
Click to expand...
While all of that remains true, Archaludon teams & players have gotten much better since then. Pairing it with stuff like screens, Sinistcha, and other utility Pokemon (Mew, ogerpon-wellspring, Cresselia etc.) have made Archaludon much more difficult to take down. For instance with a light screen, Landorus (the best counter) is now doing 60% to Archaludon, and Archaludon at +1 spa kos it back. Then the next turn Sinistcha comes in, and Archaludon is back to ~70% health, and its best check is gone.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon through Light Screen: 213-251 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 16+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 340-402 (106.5 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Because of these supports, I think that even teams that are “prepared” for Archaludon still often lose to it, unless they outplay to such a high degree the way that no other threat requires. So at this point, I’m leaning ban.
 
Just qualified as a voter today so decided to share my opinion

First off, I believe in Archaludon being Banned

In my opinion, Archaludon punishes passive and defensive plays entirely too hard. If you try to use Fake Out, it gets a defense boost; if you try to use Parting Shot, it will offset the SpAtk drop with Electro Shot; if you try to use Snarl, it offsets the SpAtk drop AND gets a defense boost. Being caught out of position by Archaludon is also especially devastating as chipping it is not an option due to Stamina and switching just gives it a free Electro Shot into whatever comes in. Switching in a ground type like Landorus into a predicted Electro Shot is not really an option as Arch usually wins the trade at +1 SpAtk. Trying to use a mon with high special defense also does not necessarily work as Arch can still brute force with Electro Shot or switch to Body Press against SpDef boosted mons. Sacred Sword does not work as Archaludon's common Tera Types of Flying and Fairy resist Fighting.

Even to more fast pace, offensive rain teams, Archaludon provides a defensive backbone that makes threats such as Wellspring downright oppressive. You wouldn't Grassy Glide or Bleakwind Storm a chipped down Wellspring if Archaludon can come in, eat the hit, and get a free defense boost from it. Wellspring also provides redirection support with Follow Me to take pressure off of Archaludon. Wellspring and Basculegion also clear the ground types that threaten Arch. Landorus-I is also an ever present teammate who's Sludge Bomb threatens the grass types that try to tank Electro Shot. Trying to outspeed Arch is also tricky as it can have tailwind support from mons like Pelipper and Tornadus or Trick Room from Sinistcha. Speaking of Sinistcha, it pairs disgustingly well with Archaludon alongside other support mons like Grimmsnarl, who heal or reduce damage to Arch respectively, making the bridge essentially unkillable and giving it all the time in the world to max out its defense and special attack stats and slowly bulldoze through everything. Attempting to Status Archaludon is also difficult as it is immune to poison naturally and partners such as Wellspring and Landorus can slot taunt into their moveset

With Archaludon Banned, balance teams that rely on Rillaboom and Incineroar for pivoting will likely increase in usage, providing some more defensive counterplay to the increased number of Hyper Offense teams that rose in popularity to combat Archaludon. In addition the Archaludon ban will not kill rain as an archetype, as it still has a lot of new toys from gen 9 such as the Genies and Basculegion.

In Summary, Archaludon is already a strong Pokemon that is pushed over the edge with just a little bit of support. It may not have the flexibility of Flutter Mane or the instant kill power of Deo-A, but Archaludon's ability to slowly bulldoze entire teams that are not carrying a dedicated anti Archaludon tool like Landorus or a Sacred Sword mon is unhealthy to the metagame. Removing Archaludon will not destroy Rain as an Archetype and will allow Balance teams to be more viable.

As such, I am voting BAN
 
Hi! I’m new player in smogon and I don’t really know how to vote, where I vote? (I completed the requirements)
 

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Roggencola said:
Hi! I’m new player in smogon and I don’t really know how to vote, where I vote? (I completed the requirements)
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just use Glaceon. said:
There will be a thread.
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This is incorrect, as per the thread OP there is a new voting process (the old process required physically posting in a thread). Voting will be done through the suspect page that Penter linked once the laddering period has ended at the end of this weekend.
 
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Team I used: https://pokepast.es/d896f64e1fe7605c

I think my original post got mished, so I'll be sorta fr now. Basically, I know Archaludon is going to get banned by popular opinion, but I, coming from a VGC background, don't like the idea of banning something that isn't inherently programmed in an unfair way. Yeah, I get it, Archaludon can stack boosts and with Sinistcha pivots becomes really hard to kill. Still, I think it's fine to just accept it as a centralizing part of the meta, and teams can just be made with multiple Archaludon checks/lines. I mean there's Pokemon like Landorus-I that are very good. I faced like 5-6 Archaludon in that session and can say that I maybe actually struggled with like one after I let it get its boosts for free, otherwise, I think there was always a way. Vote how you want, I'm just putting it out there, and saying that I'm voting not ban.
 
ban arch :thumbsup:

Totally agree with what other people have said here previously, Arch is a really strong mon that pushes rain a bit above of the rest of the archetypes present in the tier. The counterplay to Arch is already limited because of its typing + strong ability that heavily punishes physical attackers, meaning the most consistent ways to remove it quickly are strong special attacking grounds like Lando-I and Bloodmoon. The problem in my eyes is essentially that Arch synergizes a bit too well with rain- it both capitalizes off of Rain for its own damage output with Electro Shot being a broken move while also benefitting heavily defensively by being paired with some of the best mons in the tier at removing Lando-I and Bloodmoon. Rain helps arch a bit too much to really be healthy, especially when combined with Stamina + Body Press' ability to punish typical positional counterplay- hitting Arch with snarl or the like would be great if it didn't come at the cost of making Arch both more difficult to remove and more threatening at the same time!

The other thing that really makes Arch broken (as others have noted) is its pairing with Sinistcha. Sinistcha's typing matches up almost perfectly with Arch and allows both mons to be much more annoying to deal with together. Further, DOU is a slower metagame than something like VGC so damage is much less permanent, giving Sinistcha plenty of chances to keep an Archaludon healthy and making it twice as hard to remove with neutral attacks. I agree with the consensus that Sinistcha itself is not really a problematic mon, it just so happens to help augment the power of already strong pokemon, especially something as bulky as Archaludon.

While I don't think Archaludon staying or getting banned is a life or death situation for SV DOU, I do think banning Archaludon would generally be a positive step for the tier and would help increase the competitiveness of the format. Arch just so happens to be a bit too difficult to handle in an SV without Flutter and counterplay to it is constrained in a way that just isn't conducive to engaging or balanced gameplay. Although I wouldn't count on an Arch ban to fix every issue in the tier, it's pretty clearly the step forward to me.
 
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