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Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 13: Let It Snow | Evasion Abilities Banned

I don't have much to add here. I view evasion abilities as uncompetitive and a hamper to the skillful gameplay we should be striving for when making tiering descisions on Smogon. I see no reason to keep them around the tier and will be voting Ban.

I don't think banning evasion abilities will trigger any sort of slippery slope where we will start to try and remove any element of RNG that we can. I trust the council and the playerbase to think critically about different game mechanics that have elements of randomness in them. Banning evasion abilities doesn't give grounds to ban something like Thunder Wave (as we can see from the many tiers (Doubles and Singles alike) that have banned Evasion Abilities without completely collapsing in a spiral of RNG removal.

This may sound harsh but frankly sacrificing some of Ladder Player #5's enjoyment when they can no longer use Snow Cloak is worth the improvements to the tier to me. I can't speak for anyone else but as an avid ladder player myself I have gotten very frustrated from missing 100% accurate moves to pure luck, and I believe taking any steps towards making it a more competitve environment is a good thing.

Lastly just answering some people who are a bit confused on why this is a suspect at all instead of just a council vote. Thats because there already was a council vote earlier this year in which evasion abilities stayed legal, but as mentioned in the OP evasion abilities had the highest percentage (63%) of respondents calling for a suspect in the latest tiering survey and it would be doing a disservice to the community to not follow up on that with a test.
 
There's no reason for uncompetitive luck factors to be in the tier. This is along the lines of a basic Smogon 101 ban that competitive players have implemented in competitive battling since Gen 1. If there is community support for additional votes on uncompetitive things, I'd be happy to go through with them, but the slippery slope argument is generally a poor one for an ability type that has been banned on this exact website since 2011 with BW Garchomp.

@ the people arguing Snow Cloak is weak, sure, but we still tier weak things that create uncompetitive situations. This is a stronger ability than Double Team, a move that takes a turn, and Articuno has been seen in top level competition such as OSDT and SCL.
 
The arguments made about missing 100% moves being inherently problematic would maybe hold if it were truly introducing RNG to the game but it isn't, Pokemon is already full to the brim of different sources of randomness which affect the game to various extents. Imperfect accuracy moves are used all the time, and even if you opt not to use any yourself then you're still at the mercy of your opponent using them and the result of the game hinging on them. Even if you do click a move that says 100% accuracy you can still miss for other reasons, most notably Muddy Water which is far far more relevant historically in DOU than any Pokemon with Snow Cloak/Sand Veil; but even missing is far from the worst form of RNG, flinches are even stronger and prevent even moves that don't rely on accuracy, and freezes are yet more powerful as they last indefinitely with only a 20% chance to thaw (i.e. an 80% chance each turn to not move which is insane). On a scale of weakest to strongest RNG effects, missing a move is objectively much lower down than being frozen, and the sources of that are just completely free to exist.

The raw effect on paper isn't especially powerful, but even more importantly the Pokemon with Snow Cloak and Sand Veil aren't strong in practice. Much has been made about Articuno being used in OSDT and SCL, but it was only actually 3 uses in OSDT playoffs (46th in usage) and 1 use in SCL (54th in usage), while there has been a grand 0 uses in DWCoP. Ladder usage wise Articuno is not even DOU, and the only Pokemon with either ability in DOU is Ninetales-Alola which doesn't use it for obvious reasons. If the upside of rolling the dice with Articuno was so strong it would see real tour usage but it unquestionably doesn't, not even close. Snow is very much viable and does gets used, while people definitely know Articuno exists as an option from the high profile OSDT games, but the fact people still just choose to use other, better options instead speaks volumes about how ineffective Articuno really is despite its ability.

Yes it can be annoying if your opponent brings something bad that relies on luck, and they get it, but like Actuarily said there are plenty of ladder gimmicks in the same vein, it doesn't make them banworthy. To say it doesn't matter how god awful these Pokemon but they're still a problem is absurd, bans are for elements that are "too much", not something weak but annoying to run into on ladder. Snow Cloak and Sand Veil are not any more uncompetitive than other sources of RNG that exist, except in the sense of not being competitively viable. As I mentioned before and in my council vote, even if you're specifically worried about getting lucked by snow teams then freezes are way more impactful and more common in actual battles, facing and missing a mid Articuno once in a hundred games is so much less of a problem it shouldn't even be on the same radar as that.
 
VOTING IS NOW UP!
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tyo
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Voting is now done through the suspect page linked above, if you have any issues please contact myself or bagel.

The voting deadline is Sunday, December 15th 8:00 PM Eastern Time (GMT-5), but the results will be posted before that if the outcome is already decided.
 
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There are still a few votes left but the result cannot be changed. Therefore, Evasion Abilities (Snow Cloak and Sand Veil) are now BANNED from SV DOU! Tagging dhelmise and Marty to implement on PS, thanks.

For anyone who qualified but has not yet voted, voting will remain open here until the end of the week. If you now qualify for Tiering Contributor from having 4 DOU votes (see the new standards here), please send me or bagel a DM with your votes.

Thank you to everybody who participated in this suspect test!
 
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With the ban to Evasion abilities and the discussions here, indicating a general dislike for evasion despite its limited usage, I think that the community would be generally supportive of a ban Brightpowder. More so for a council vote than a suspect test, or perhaps for consideration in the DOU survey. Most of the same arguments for banning Evasion abilities and Double Team align with Brightpowder.
 
Darkmalice said:
With the ban to Evasion abilities and the discussions here, indicating a general dislike for evasion despite its limited usage, I think that the community would be generally supportive of a ban Brightpowder. More so for a council vote than a suspect test, or perhaps for consideration in the DOU survey. Most of the same arguments for banning Evasion abilities and Double Team align with Brightpowder.
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I agree, although the opportunity cost of using bright powder over any other item is so high I don't think it needs to be looked into.
 
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