Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 12: Under the Bridge | Archaludon remains legal

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yoda2798

Blood on the Clocktower is the best
is a Community Leaderis a Top Community Contributoris a Metagame Resource Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Doubles Leader
I don't ever wanna feel like I did that day
But take me to the place I love, take me all the way
I don't ever wanna feel like I did that day
But take me to the place I love take me all the way

:sv/archaludon:

Following the responses to the most recent tiering survey, Archaludon has emerged as the next DOU suspect test target!

At first glance, Archaludon doesn't appear to overwhelming: despite a pseudo-legendary level BST, its stat spread wasting a lot in Attack while leaving a middling Speed and lackluster Special Defense (which it would love to take advantage of with its excellent Dragon/Steel defensive typing) leave something to be desired. However, Archaludon has two important aces (one unique, one almost unique) up its sleeve which take it up a level. The first of these is Electro Shot, a 130 BP Electric-type attack similar to Meteor Beam where the first turn is spent raising Special Attack before attacking on the second turn, with the massive plus of not requiring a charge turn while in rain. With weather support readily available from Pelipper or Rain Dance Tornadus (who can also set Tailwind to help with Archaludon's middling Speed), this provides Archaludon a powerful coverage attack which simultaneously makes it more threatening, and as this can be used multiple times unlike Meteor Beam which requires a one-off Power Herb, provides especially strong snowball potential. Electro Shot's powerful boosting potential also helps allow Archaludon to invest defensively, usually opting for Assault Vest and a Specially Defensive EV spread to patch up its vulnerability on the special side.

Archaludon's true trump card, though, is its ability Stamina. This ability boosts Archaludon's Defense by one stage whenever damaged by attack, with multi-attacks activating multiple times (meaning a Beat Up user like Whimsicott may be paired to quickly rack up boosts, though this is less common), but also notably activating even on being hit by special attacks as well. In practice, this means Archaludon finds ample opportunity to begin racking up boosts, as with its Dragon/Steel typing providing a number of resists, moves like Fake Out or U-Turn, Bleakwind Storm from Tornadus, or any STAB moves from Ogerpon-Wellspring or Rillaboom will do minimal damage while in fact benefiting Archaludon. Quite importantly, Archaludon can switch into any of these attacks to get the boost train rolling before it even selects a move, and this is often the best way to start gaining boosts as once Archaludon is on the field the opponent should avoid unnecessarily targeting it or risk playing into its hand. Even beyond the aforementioned attacks one must be careful about choosing to attack Archaludon, doing so thoughtlessly can easily let it run away with the game, as attacking with for example a neutral physical attacker like Incineroar or Kingambit may do decent damage on the first hit, but will be unable to break through with subsequent attacks while boosting Archaludon up. As if steadily turning Archaludon into an untouchable monster, Stamina boosts also pair perfectly with Body Press, letting them function as an offensive boost as well. On top of dealing with pesky Steel-types like Kingambit that resist Archaludon's STABs, Body Press quickly becomes a nuke after racking up a few defensive boosts, capable of KOing most non-resists. Electro Shot is nice, but often Body Press alone is strong enough alone for Archaludon to get by relying on that as its damage output, while also letting it get away with investing in Special Defense.

However, Archaludon is not without its flaws. Even with Assault Vest and Special Defense investment, Archaludon is still quite vulnerable to ever-present threat Landorus-I, often being forced to Tera to remove its Ground weakness (and generally being quite tera hungry as a result). Other strong special attackers like Chi-Yu, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, or Regidrago can also threaten Archaludon, though not as strongly as Landorus, while also lacking its helpful Body Press/Electro Shot resists. On the physical side, Chien-Pao can pierce through Archaludon's Defense boosts using a super effective Sacred Sword, and while Tera can remove this weakness, usually a Terrastallized Archaludon will be weak instead to Chien-Pao's Ice-type attacks as a result. Amoonguss resists both Body Press and Electro Shot while being able to tank Archaludon's other attacks as well and can Spore it in return (or Clear Smog a Terrastallized Archaludon, though this does still leave it at +1 Defense), though Safety Goggles or Tera Grass variants can make it unreliable. Gholdengo is immune to Body Press and resists Archaludon's other attacks outside of Electro Shot, often being able to Nasty Plot up on it. In general, using a Tera type which resists/is immune to Body Press can be effective against Archaludon as this is usually its primary damage source, particularly so for Iron Defense sets. Archaludon's reliance on rain also holds it back, either needing to find time to manually set with Tornadus, or use an otherwise inferior choice in Pelipper to get rain on switch-in; overriding rain to prevent Electro Shot or force Archaludon to lock into a 2-turn execution can also cripple it. Archaludon's biggest flaw, however, is its reliance on boosts to be effective, without which it is damage output is quite non-threatening, and it can still be hurt by a well-timed physical attack. Avoid letting Archaludon acquire too many boosts, particularly from needlessly attacking into it, and it is much easier to deal with.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Archaludon.

Important: For this suspect, there will be two ways to qualify. The first is the typical laddering period, where players must reach the minimum GXE. The second is by winning a live suspect tournament, to be held in the Smogon Doubles Room. You may compete in the suspect tournament on any account, and will need to post proof of you winning the suspect tournament on the voter ID thread.

There will be two live suspect tournaments:

Suspect Tournament Times
Saturday, 11th May at 12:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-4)
Sunday, 12th May at 4:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-4)

The laddering period will last for a total of nine days.

Laddering Period
Start: Friday, 10th May at 8:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-4)
End: Sunday, 19th May Wednesday 22nd May at 8:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-4)

All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! Doubles OU ladder on a fresh alt with the prefix DOUAR [name]. For example, I might register "DOUAR Yoda” to ladder with. You must follow this format to qualify.

To qualify to vote, you must achieve a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may subtract 1 game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

Archaludon will be legal during this suspect.
 
Last edited:
I do not like using or fighting archaludon but it's pretty clearly not broken to me

It's a strong snowball mon that requires significant support to unlock it's potential (pelipper/rain dance torn, healing, often redirection). Disrupting Archaludon's setup is not "free" but not too difficult, the support it demands means you have at least a couple turns before it's an omegathreat.
- your own weather can prevent it from boosting while also doing big damage with Blizzard spam or Sun boosted Fire moves
- simply overwhelming them with high damage output can be a viable answer with HO teams
- moves like Spore/Whirlwind/Encore can just ruin their board, forcing them to play from behind
- you can use their setup turns and setup something of your own to try matching it

I don't find it to be too overbearing in game or in the builder, just another team style you need to respect. If anything I find abusing Arch's setup turns and preventing the snowball to be an interesting dynamic. Preying on careless or miscalculated play is much healthier than outspeeding and outdamaging the entire tier like our last two suspects. Of course that's not the only type of Pokemon that's banworthy, but I don't find it to be as unreasonable to account for as an Annihilape or Dondozo either. If it gets banned I definitely won't be heartbroken, though I'm pretty convinced it's not broken.

Don't think any Pokemon in the tier is worth banning (don't ban Tornadus lol) or unbanning (unless it means banning Commander), people just load cringe teams which makes the tier seem worse than it is, goodstuffs games are really fun. Good time to test Archaludon though since it's been talked about for a while and we're about to be in-between major tours so props for that. Only disappointed to see evasion abilities remain legal seeing as they're uncompetitive, add nothing interesting to the tier, have been a ladder nuisance forever and recently started appearing in tour. @ derby players abuse those ty
 
Congrats to ihbst for winning the first suspect tour!
finals replay, semi's 1 replay (I lost the other semi's replay whoops)
bracket.png

There will be another suspect tour tomorrow, 5/11 at 4pm -4.
 
:Incineroar::espathra::archaludon::rillaboom::politoed::landorus:

This skill-less team is the biggest reason for me feeling pro-archa ban atm. It's a pretty popular team. Double fake support allows espathra to set a cm and get atleast at +2 speed boost easily in most games. This is all it needs to baton pass to archaludon or in a few cases lando-i to steamroll the entire game if there's no haze/roar/whirlwind user on the opposite team.
Once tha baton is passed to archaludon it becomes stupidly difficult to take down due to the reasons mentioned in the op + passed stats. It more or less gets a free av if u have grassy seed espathra after the pass. It can either be the leftovers set which benifits hugely from terrain too or it can be the AV set which can take a few extra special hits before going down (which is more than enough time for this bridge-dino to wear most of your team down unless u seamlessly play around it, which is yet another problem). playing around such is largely inconsistent coz the people who use this team (including me) seem to always click the move that makes the least sense so it's tough to outmaneuver. If archaludon stays legal even after this suspect, I'd urge the council peeps to look into the ostrich onc3 (saying this sounds stupid somehow coz the mon feels weak on paper) since it is basically the puppeteer of this team.

Well basically what I mean to say is structures like this team feel heavily uncompetitive and rely a lot over getting the correct 50-50s to secure a win that remind me of the time when deo-a was legal and everyone was spamming that one tyo sun psyspam tr.

tldr; https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2113339253?p2 and many more

This was my first time writing anything like this so excuse me if it feels unprofessional or lacking, thanks.
 
oh my god finally this god of a fucking bridge is being dealt with
i like using i myself, but even i would vote for ban if i voted.
 
I will be voting Do Not Ban for Archaludon. While it can certainly be an annoying Pokemon to deal with, Archaludon has a lot of drawbacks that keep it from being too overbearing either offensively or defensively. It's low special bulk (very important because now it has to invest in Special Defense to stick around rather than make its offenses more threatening) and natural weaknesses to key offensive Pokemon in the tier mean that it can often be blitzed down by strong attackers and/or forced to Tera, which can be further abused if played well. Offensively it really relies on Electro Shot boosts in Rain (or other inconsistent strats like beat up for Stamina Boosts) to be truly threatening, which obviously can be disrupted by your own weather and has a limited time, while also needing a couple turns to get going. I've also seen sets that manually use Iron Defense but I think those are simply bad.

Archaludon is definitely a Pokemon that can start to steamroll if given enough space, but there are plenty other threats that can threaten something similar (Diancie and Gholdengo are interesting comparisons as bulky mons that can set up (kinda) and often rely on additional field conditions to truly thrive). Archaludon just requires a different approach that took a little while for the playerbase to figure out (watching later rounds of OSDT in particular Archaludon hasn't stood out as problematic).

Xrn's post is great and I agree with everything he said, particularly his point about Archaludon preying on careless or miscalculated play more than anything else. Well-constructed teams using good pokemon shouldn't have a huge problem handling Archaludon compared to any other threat in the metagame that you have to consider when building and playing.
 
From what I can tell, there arent too many people who find archaludon busted in the typical sense (tho i would hear out any arguments if there were), and its certainly not on the same level as flutter or deo. I think the best arguments in in favor of ban are how it impacts the meta and teambuilding as a whole. For one, the versatility of archa means you have few consistent options in the builder to deal with it. theres more options than just lando but its high usage is llikely due to it being mandatory on most teams (otherwise u autolose to some archa sets). Archa has brought back weather wars too, which I dont mind too much personally but i expect to get tired of it eventually. I think this also makes prankster twind even better, as if it really needed that, considering its the most reliable way to run weather. These small things all add up, to where it does kinda feel difficult to build without having some autolose matchup, so games feel kinda cheesy rn. It's true that its not really *that* much stronger than other threats on its own Archa is just exacerbating a lot of problems with the meta rn.

that said, the meta does still feel like it has room to grow and im thinking archa getting suspected is a bit premature.

im sure theres stuff im missing but since i hadnt seen much talk from those leaning towards ban I thought I'd give my interpretation. I'm leaning ban because archa is annoying but ill probably go back and forth a few more times lol.

also idbp is def a legit set replay (i played this so poorly too)
 

:Archaludon:
General consensus on this mon from established players seems to be DNB, which I don't fundamentally disagree with. While strong, annoying, and very slightly centralizing, my feeling is that the counterplay to this mon is just barely sufficient to keep it in check. The mons that help offensively check Arch are by themselves fundamentally strong (like Lando I) and are not difficult enough to fit on teams to truly constrain the teambuilder in the way we've seen other mons this gen do it (Deo-A, Flutter, etc). In this regard, Archaludon pretty clearly falls short of being broken- it's just not quite at that same level of centralization or raw power. However, while I agree with the final conclusion I (and others in this thread) have reached here, I don't think this comes even remotely close to telling the full story of why this mon is being suspected.

:Basculegion: :Annihilape:
There's another angle here which I think comes a lot closer to the actual root cause of the problems people actually have with Archaludon. Rather than see this mon as another Deo-A or Flutter, I'm more inclined to view Archaludon as being a less overtly broken member of the dumb mechanic crowd that includes mons like Basc-M or Annihilape (this might seem like an odd comparison for a significantly less broken Pokemon but hear me out here). Ape and Basc both heavily capitalized off of mechanics that heavily punish literally just playing the game, with rage fist and last respects gaining absurd power just because you bothered to click an attacking move or dared to take a ko. Although added two generations previously in gen 7, stamina is surprisingly similar in the way it capitalizes passively off of basic gameplay. In my opinion, stamina (especially with body press) is inherently close to being uncompetitive. On Mudsdale (skull emoji), this wasn't an issue since the mon was pretty obviously terrible in every other respect with a lackluster defensive typing. However, with Archaludon, we have a 600 bst behemoth wielding this ability and I think it comes quite close to pushing the boundaries of healthy gameplay. Fundamentally, I think this ability on a mon with these kind of stats was destined to receive some form of attention at some point- the floor is just too high to avoid it.

However, there are a few key differences with Archaludon as opposed to the other two that ultimately prevent it from attaining the same banworthy status imo. The first of these has to do with the way Stamina works as opposed to the others. Contrary to the gen 9 stupidity of rage fist and last respects that allows these moves base power to stay heightened after a switch, Stamina just gives stat boosts. Forcing out this pokemon isn't too difficult if you catch it early before it really can stack boosts, and when you do so, it loses all its progress in a way that Annihilape (Basc plays very differently) never had to fear. Additionally, body press isn't STAB boosted, which really prevents it from doing the absurd damage early on that the other two could. Due to this lack of STAB, options like Kommo-o are usually just better at committing solely to IronPress sets, meaning Arch resorts to sets like AV/3 attack protect that just don't snowball to the same capacity most of the time.

Finally, this mon's biggest failing in comparison to Basc/Ape is the (so far) inability to produce widespread teams that totally commit to abusing itself. While the Espathra team (built by Schister) Sundays mentioned
does remind one of the Rabsca days of old, this team primarily stands by itself as the only one that's really effectively seen success in this way, whereas both of the others had many, many teams revolving around them. While you could argue some of the rain teams we've seen also lean this way, it's really not the same level of commitment in my opinion. If we'd been seeing more teams in this vein, I'd be much more likely to come down on the ban side but with what I've currently seen there's not quite enough to convince me. I still think this Pokemon has the potential to reach this level but it's not quite there and I think a ban vote might be a little premature at the moment. While I am on the fence here, I am leaning towards voting DO NOT BAN.
 
:Incineroar::espathra::archaludon::rillaboom::politoed::landorus:

This skill-less team is the biggest reason for me feeling pro-archa ban atm. It's a pretty popular team. Double fake support allows espathra to set a cm and get atleast at +2 speed boost easily in most games. This is all it needs to baton pass to archaludon or in a few cases lando-i to steamroll the entire game if there's no haze/roar/whirlwind user on the opposite team.
Once tha baton is passed to archaludon it becomes stupidly difficult to take down due to the reasons mentioned in the op + passed stats. It more or less gets a free av if u have grassy seed espathra after the pass. It can either be the leftovers set which benifits hugely from terrain too or it can be the AV set which can take a few extra special hits before going down (which is more than enough time for this bridge-dino to wear most of your team down unless u seamlessly play around it, which is yet another problem). playing around such is largely inconsistent coz the people who use this team (including me) seem to always click the move that makes the least sense so it's tough to outmaneuver. If archaludon stays legal even after this suspect, I'd urge the council peeps to look into the ostrich onc3 (saying this sounds stupid somehow coz the mon feels weak on paper) since it is basically the puppeteer of this team.

Well basically what I mean to say is structures like this team feel heavily uncompetitive and rely a lot over getting the correct 50-50s to secure a win that remind me of the time when deo-a was legal and everyone was spamming that one tyo sun psyspam tr.

tldr; https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2113339253?p2 and many more

This was my first time writing anything like this so excuse me if it feels unprofessional or lacking, thanks.

:Archaludon:
General consensus on this mon from established players seems to be DNB, which I don't fundamentally disagree with. While strong, annoying, and very slightly centralizing, my feeling is that the counterplay to this mon is just barely sufficient to keep it in check. The mons that help offensively check Arch are by themselves fundamentally strong (like Lando I) and are not difficult enough to fit on teams to truly constrain the teambuilder in the way we've seen other mons this gen do it (Deo-A, Flutter, etc). In this regard, Archaludon pretty clearly falls short of being broken- it's just not quite at that same level of centralization or raw power. However, while I agree with the final conclusion I (and others in this thread) have reached here, I don't think this comes even remotely close to telling the full story of why this mon is being suspected.

:Basculegion: :Annihilape:
There's another angle here which I think comes a lot closer to the actual root cause of the problems people actually have with Archaludon. Rather than see this mon as another Deo-A or Flutter, I'm more inclined to view Archaludon as being a less overtly broken member of the dumb mechanic crowd that includes mons like Basc-M or Annihilape (this might seem like an odd comparison for a significantly less broken Pokemon but hear me out here). Ape and Basc both heavily capitalized off of mechanics that heavily punish literally just playing the game, with rage fist and last respects gaining absurd power just because you bothered to click an attacking move or dared to take a ko. Although added two generations previously in gen 7, stamina is surprisingly similar in the way it capitalizes passively off of basic gameplay. In my opinion, stamina (especially with body press) is inherently close to being uncompetitive. On Mudsdale (skull emoji), this wasn't an issue since the mon was pretty obviously terrible in every other respect with a lackluster defensive typing. However, with Archaludon, we have a 600 bst behemoth wielding this ability and I think it comes quite close to pushing the boundaries of healthy gameplay. Fundamentally, I think this ability on a mon with these kind of stats was destined to receive some form of attention at some point- the floor is just too high to avoid it.

However, there are a few key differences with Archaludon as opposed to the other two that ultimately prevent it from attaining the same banworthy status imo. The first of these has to do with the way Stamina works as opposed to the others. Contrary to the gen 9 stupidity of rage fist and last respects that allows these moves base power to stay heightened after a switch, Stamina just gives stat boosts. Forcing out this pokemon isn't too difficult if you catch it early before it really can stack boosts, and when you do so, it loses all its progress in a way that Annihilape (Basc plays very differently) never had to fear. Additionally, body press isn't STAB boosted, which really prevents it from doing the absurd damage early on that the other two could. Due to this lack of STAB, options like Kommo-o are usually just better at committing solely to IronPress sets, meaning Arch resorts to sets like AV/3 attack protect that just don't snowball to the same capacity most of the time.

Finally, this mon's biggest failing in comparison to Basc/Ape is the (so far) inability to produce widespread teams that totally commit to abusing itself. While the Espathra team (built by Schister) Sundays mentioned

does remind one of the Rabsca days of old, this team primarily stands by itself as the only one that's really effectively seen success in this way, whereas both of the others had many, many teams revolving around them. While you could argue some of the rain teams we've seen also lean this way, it's really not the same level of commitment in my opinion. If we'd been seeing more teams in this vein, I'd be much more likely to come down on the ban side but with what I've currently seen there's not quite enough to convince me. I still think this Pokemon has the potential to reach this level but it's not quite there and I think a ban vote might be a little premature at the moment. While I am on the fence here, I am leaning towards voting DO NOT BAN.


Seeing as the team I built has been brought up multiple times in this thread as well as in discord spaces I have frequented it seems fit for me to weigh in on the topic of an Archaludon ban. This is perhaps the most split I have been on a ban all generationdue to the particular circumstances of this pokemon's impact on the metagame at large. In short: I do not believe Archaludon is particularly metagame warping at present, many of the things that can beat or neutralize it are already viable for other reasons, however this fact does not prevent it from being one of the more uncompetitive pokemon in the tier in my opinion. There is also a sizeable impact in builder that archaludon has for anti-meta or lesser played strategies that leads to it punishing more deviant builders quite significantly, something I see reflected in its ladder use rate and the rhetoric coming from those that I see frequenting mid-low ladder that often find themselves punished for not conforming to the top of the metagame when they face archaludon in a way that isn't quite true of other meta threats.

I have seen a somewhat common sentiment that the espathra team is the primary thing making archaludon look broken/uncompetitive and that other teams have failed to truly push archaludon as a centralizing win condition. I find this odd as not only is the very first sample team listed for the tier archaludon + 5 supportive pokemon but multiple variations of rain teams such as ratpacker psyrain have used archaludon as a win condition to great effect. Personally I believe that the espathra team is nowhere near the limits of how archaludon can be abused, but given the way the mon plays I do not believe there is significant interest from too many top players to actually push the mon to its limits. Example:
I do not like using or fighting archaludon but it's pretty clearly not broken to me
However we cannot ban a pokemon on theoretical usage, that would just be absurd, and as such I do not currently believe that Archaludon is banworthy. I know that sentence will disappoint some of my comrades, but as the metagame stands archaludon is not providing significant enough strain upon tournament play to warrant a ban in my eyes, though future developments and efforts could very easily push it to that level. Archaludon is in my eyes the least developed tier 2 pokemon in the format and I would be remiss to fail to mention that it could very well cause problems in the future should the metagame shift around developments the benefit (such as ting lu rising in popularity lately).

If I were just a ladder player, however, I would probably be vehemently in favor of an archaludon ban. As a very deviant builder myself that likes toying with anti-meta ideas, Archaludon is one of the most restrictive pokemon I have seen all generation to that side of the team builder. Archaludon forces a certain level of raw power or disruptive utility to either break it or neutralize it in a way that simply cannot be replicated by any other pokemon, and it very often forces difficult board positions for its opponents as board states usually force specific lines to be taken in battle that can be exploited by certain supports for arch in a way that is all too often worse than a 50/50 for its opponents. Additionally, archaludon's fantastic typing and great physical bulk let it be an extraordinary blanket switch-in on physical attacks in the tier grabbing immediate pressure and momentum into a great many board states not too dissimilar to how gholdengo exploits its typing to find entry points to click nasty plot on. Archaludon is also quite possibly the best tera abuser in the format, given how the click of a button can completely flip available counterplay to it and be the starting point for its iconic snowballing to win games. Given all this, in my eyes those who call for a ban on the pokemon are perfectly reasonable in doing so even if I personally think that archaludon isn't quite at that level yet and can stand for further development in the metagame before it is truly banworthy.

TL:DR;
Leaning Do Not Ban due to the current lack of development and pressure upon top level play. though I believe that Archaludon could very easily become problematic in the future, and even currently constrains certain aspects of the tier.
 
Last edited:
1716097141638.png



1716096984979.png


Archaludon is one of the most restrictive pokemon I have seen all generative to that side of the team builder. Archaludon forces a certain level of raw power or disruptive utility to either break it or neutralize it in a way that simply cannot be replicated by any other pokemon, and it very often forces difficult board positions for its opponents as board states usually force specific lines to be taken in battle that can be exploited by certain supports for arch in a way that is all to often worse than a 50/50 for its opponents.

I really agree with this statement. I think its not broken and unbeatable but its just the type of mon that you need 1.5 answers when building a team or you will auto lose. It really sucks in the builder and and while not over centralizing its not a fun pokemon to have exist. I was auto ban before the suspect honestly and frankly I might still vote ban, bc its a really interesting case of would DOU be a more entertaining and creative tier without this thing? Yes imo. We have two steels that are really viable within the tier and i wouldnt mind some forced diversity.

In conclusion I think I want to see a suspect where archaludon is not legal. I want to see the metagame without this gaudy monstrosity.
 
Last edited:
To begin with, I'll analyse the replays from Top 16 of OSDT onwards featuring Archaludon:


Actuarily's Archaludon is unfortunately crit by Earthquake, which it otherwise would have tanked. However, it is still worth noting that afterwards, with Kingdra being knocked out already as well, Actuarily forfeits a 4v6. This is usually quite early to forfeit, but as the team is built around supporting Archaludon (and to a lesser extent Kingdra), losing its focal point is quite decisive even with all the remaining Pokemon left, which is a big drawback of building around Archaludon that the team often lives or dies by how well it performs.


This game it's the Archaludon which gets a bit lucky, dodging Glimmora's Meteor Beam, though that's actually not too significant as it would only take ~30% minus Grassy Terrain healing, and the Stamina boost would offset some damage from Ogerpon's Ivy Cudgel on the following turn as well. Anyways, in this game Despacito87 decides to use Tera Fairy on Archaludon to deal with the threat of Regidrago, as not only can it otherwise hit Archaludon hard as a strong special attacker, but their team also has no Dragon-type resists to switch into, as Archaludon is their Steel-type but still only neutral. This does work out well for the Archaludon staying healthy that turn, which could and maybe should have KOed the Regidrago in return, but the big problem with this is seen later, where the Terrastallized Archaludon's newfound weakness to Gholdengo's Make It Rain proves fatal. This is often the case where Archaludon requires Tera to deal with certain threats, but even afterwards can still struggle due to new weaknesses gained and the loss of the great defensive profile its base typing provides.


Archaludon manages to finally finish off the Iron Crown, though its teammates were too depleted by that point for it to do much afterwards, so there's not much to be said about Archaludon from this game.


This game from the same set also features the same Archaludon team from Flying Beagle, but this time the bridge gets more of a chance to shine. A typical play is made switching Archaludon in against a weaker hit (Kingambit's Assurance) it can tank to get Stamina going, throwing in the optional side U-Turn for an extra boost on top. Along with Psychic Seed activating, this puts Archaludon in a threatening position immediately after switching-in, and it takes advantage to start throwing out +2 Body Presses right away. However, even with those boosts Archaludon fails to pick up KOs, dealing rather unimpressive damage to Ninetales-Alola and Articuno with Body Press (which to be fair they did have the Defense boost from Snow, but it still would have been underwhelming damage without that). The more notable effect of Snow, however, is it denying Archaludon the option to effectively use Electro Shot, which as you can see from the replay severely limits Archaludon's offensive capability. As a result, Archaludon is worn down and eventually knocked out by several special attacks, and while it did manage to acquire boosts and sit on the field for a while, it was unable to capitalise on that offensively. Weather in particular is obviously quite strong against Archaludon for limiting its ability to use Electro Shot, but setting that aside I think that game is a great example of how Archaludon is still manageable even with boosts, and how it can often struggle with being fairly passive even with a boosted Body Press at its disposal.


This game showcases a different Archaludon set from the other games, with Ann using an Iron Defense variant here. Now, the situation when Archaludon hits the field is a bit of a mixed bag, as it is a 2v3, but two of its opponents are physical attackers and it does get to set up an Iron Defense while at full health. Again, Archaludon's underwhelming damage output is displayed, as it tragically fails to knock out Regidrago from just over half with +2 Body Press, which with the Draco Meteor miss could have let it win the game. In reality, even with the miss Archaludon still loses the game, as supporting Regidrago to land two good special attacks on Archaludon is sufficient to deal with it despite all the Defense boosts built up. You might say that this is fine because Archaludon only got an opportunity at the end of the game, but that's also part of the problem: Archaludon being too slow, with needing to set up Iron Defense and relying on Body Press for damage (which even at +2 is nothing special), is exactly why it was kept in the back all game. If sempra had reached the endgame without Regidrago, then things could potentially have looked quite differently, with Archaludon being difficult to break through after an Iron Defense, but sempra was smart and preserved the Regidrago to be able to handle it, which makes a massive difference in being able to deal with Archaludon effectively.


If you're thinking that's not a lot of games then you'd be correct, from Top 16 of OSDT onwards Archaludon has only 5/60 uses (~8.3% usage), while in Top 32 it had 6/74 uses (8.1% usage), which is absurdly low for a supposedly banworthy Pokemon. As I've explained above, and others have also already mentioned, Archaludon struggles from several flaws, including requiring a significant amount of support and often dedicating Tera to it, underwhelming damage output, and vulnerability on the specially defensive side. Yes, Archaludon does have the potential to run away with a game, but there's a lot of hurdles it needs to overcome for that to happen, and when it doesn't as is usually the case, Archaludon is not as effective as other Pokemon that require less support and have more immediate and consistent value. Archaludon is a Pokemon that can snowball out of control if not played against correctly, but over time I think people have gotten better about avoiding playing into its hands. Also, people are using more special attackers these days which can hit Archaludon where it hurts, compared to a time in the past where many teams were Landorus-I + physical attackers, so Archaludon with a Tera to absorb Earth Power had an immense advantage on matchup, but that's not really the case anymore. It should come as no surprise that I will be voting Do Not Ban on Archaludon for the reasons above.
 
Joining the majority sentiment here, but I will be voting Do Not Ban for Archaludon. The Electro Shot offensive sets can certainly snowball to victory if the engine is given room, but I stress that it really does feel like Archaludon needs an entire engine to get going. Rain support is the obvious, but its middling speed tier means it also really enjoys Tailwind as well as Fake Out and Follow Me support to shield it from faster threats like Landorus. To draw a comparison, this really isn't much different from the likes of NP Gholdengo and SD Kingambit, some of the other setup steels in the tier. If anything, Archaludon's primary setup condition feels shakier to me than the aforementioned options because of how contested weather is in the tier at the moment - you could very reasonably expect to run into Sun or Snow, and Sand is rare but far from unviable.

I also want to add that it is far from just Landorus that can be considered a threat to this Pokemon. While it is one of the only things that can threaten it with an OHKO on its own, Chi-Yu Sun, Regidrago, NP Gholdengo, Ursaluna & Ursaluna-BM, and Chien-Pao are just some of the Pokemon I have used to threaten Archaludon as well as the ones gunning me down when I find myself using the bridge.

And just to briefly comment on the Iron Defense set: it's a fine Iron Defense user, but the ceiling for these Pokemon in general is only so high due to the nature of their coverage options (Fighting + one coverage move is far from perfect) and reliance on setup (we're starting out with an 80 BP nonstab attack here). It is not much better than the likes of Kommo-o or Registeel from previous metagame trends in my eyes.

Solid Pokemon but has enough flaws that I don't think it needs the boot. If people think the Espathra team is an issue we should probably be talking about Baton Pass instead of the bridge tbh.
 
The least popular set for archaludon seems to be iron defense, and probably hasn't gotten enough talk, however for me this is the best and most splashable set as it doesn't rely so much on other pokemon to do its job and I've tried it since day 1. It's basically an improved kommo-o, because, although it does less damage, it doesn't need to take as many turns to get boosts, sometimes with a simple switch it can be at +2 defense and start pressuring the opponent, plus it fits snarl to fix its low special defense and protect to heal with leftovers. Protect is really what makes the difference with the AV electro shot set, as it doesn't lose as much momentum as the rain set, and allows its partner to put pressure on the slots that threaten him in a better way.

Anyway; sacred sword, landorus or really any good special attacker like chi-yu, gholdengo or ursaluna, phazer moves, encore, tera ghost, your own weather... all of these are solid checks for one set or another and easy to fit on a team.

Just to put an example, my sample team which consist on 6 physical attackers which means it doesn't have any of the best pokemon to remove a def boosted archaludon, has enough tools to deal with both sets, in the form of tera ghost whirlwind ting-lu, sacred sword, encore, snarl and its own iron defense pokemon.

I am of the opinion that archaludon did not even need a suspect test. Although it can be annoying to deal with on certain occasions, there are enough checks for it, and very varied. We should probably start thinking on suspect things down.
 
If you had asked me over a month ago, I probably would have been leaning ban on Archaludon, since at the time it felt like the only checks were like Landorus/Ursalunas or Iron Hands before Archaludon gets defense boosts. Even then, Archaludon can of course Tera to beat these matchups, but then forcing an early Tera on their wincon can often be an advatangeous position for Archaludon’s opponent.

But since then there’s been proven a lot of other different ways to beat Archaludon, such as having opposing weather (hail especially) to prevent it from getting off ElectroShots, setting up a strong special attackers first that can often Tera if needed to beat it like MB Glimmora CM Raging Bolt, NP Gholdengo, etc. Then there’s even some physical attackers that can beat it if they set up first like SD Kingambit or SD Iron Hands. Beyond that you can just have strong special attackers like Regidrago or Walking Wake that can just chunk it hard.

There’s even some more tech options that have been gaining popularity like Whirlwind Ting-Lu, Sacred Sword mons, and this isn’t even counting ragepowder mons like Amoonguss & Sinistcha that can redirect Archaludon’s Electro Shot, and Amoonguss can also spore it.

All in all, there’s just enough in the metagame to be able to beat it, and this is further evidenced by as others have pointed out it’s slightly dwindling popularity. Do Not Ban.
 
Archaludon is what I would consider the closest Tier 2 to being Tier 1, but has enough flaws to stop it from being so. I won't go much into detail because most of what I think about the Pokémon is on this post, but I'll quickly list some of these flaws:
  • Depending on the set you load, you have some very good or very bad matchups.
  • Very tera hungry since it's weak to the strongest hitter in the tier (Landorus).
  • Easily disrupted.
  • Lacks sustain.
It also has some very good points such as easily snowballing games, immediately being threatening if you mess up some turns (Click Fake Out / U-Turn when this switches in), and punishing from the teambuilder if you don't prepare for this, but isn't near as game-breaking as some of the previous Pokémon we've tested and banned. Unfortunately I've been busy with final exams for the last 2 weeks, so I was unable to ladder, but if I had gotten reqs I would've voted Do not ban
 
Last edited:
There are still votes remaining, but the result is decided. With Do Not Ban having received over 40% of the vote already, Archaludon will remain legal in SV DOU. The current voting breakdown is as follows:

Ban: 8 (19.0%)
Do Not Ban: 26 (61.9%)
Votes Remaining: 8 (19.0%)
Total Voters: 42

Post below your thoughts on this result, and any other metagame elements you wish to discuss!
 
Hi, I don't really know where to post this lol.
I played in the recent DOU Derby, and I did build most of my teams myself, even tho I did have help from my team. As such, and having very little experience building in this tier, which is admittedly very different from singles building wise, I saw myself forced to use lots of the resources we have, moreso than normally I'd say. Since I have no clue of what EVs does Tyranitar need in Doubles OU (in LC its very easy, max speed max atk even defenses), i constantly went back and used either dex spreads or sample teams spreads. However, I did notice that these resources are incredibly outdated. Half of the sets are based around either living a hit from Flutter mane or killing Flutter mane. So, I did create my very own eridbspreads, which I wanna share today:
Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 212 HP / 152 Def / 144 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 28 Spe
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Pollen Puff
- Clear Smog

This lives +1 Bloodmoon while not losing any of the physical rolls Amoonguss relies on, like pao.
Raging Bolt @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 240 HP / 68 Def / 116 SpA / 84 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Thunderclap
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Protect

This lives both a Sandsear Storm and a -1 Earthquake from Ursaluna, dumping into spatk.
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 4 Def / 28 SpD / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Horn Leech
- Follow Me
- Spiky Shield

This lives Landorus Sludge Bomb and +2 Diamond Storm, while outspeeding Landorus. Dump in attack
Landorus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 120 Def / 4 SpD / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stomping Tantrum
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Rock Tomb

This lives Water Ivy Cudgel, Chi-yu attacks and outspeeds Gouging Fire under Tailwind, dumping into attack
Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 12 HP / 84 Atk / 252 SpD / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch

This OHKOes Waterpon if it teras, while 2HKOing Dragon Gholdengo with Ice Punch. It outspeeds Firepon in Tailwind, and rest is dumped into spdf
Chi-Yu @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 28 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Protect

This OHKOes Tornadus at +2, outspeeds timid Kyurem and dumps into bulk.

Hope this helps guys
 
Last edited:
Felt like compiling some metagame thoughts for the sake of it, SV is in a strange place where I have both extremely positive and some negative feelings on the metagame.

:tornadus: Tornadus teams are absolutely insane right now. So many different special attacking threats to choose from in Landorus, Gholdengo, regidrago, Chi Yu and Ursaluna. All of them have different checks and counters and all of them have insane levels of damage output if they are given a single inch of space, and while they can be individually annoying to account for in builder I honestly have a great time playing against all of these pokemon, and It usually feels like the better player wins when these archetypes are involved with the exception of Bleakwind storm (and sandsear, to a lesser extent) causing terrible amounts of variance in every battle. Bleakwind probably stands as the single greatest point of frustration in the metagame to me between the random speed drops and frequent misses but at this point I'm just going to have to learn to live with it.

:landorus: Definitely my pick for the best mon in the format, Scarf sets are a real menace to me lately, often outspeeding big threats like gholdengo and chi yu in tailwind. Not a huge fan of how overwhelmingly powerful sandsear storm is, especially with the variance it creates. Sturdy switches to this guys' ground STABs are fairly limited in this format and being able to roll the dice on sandsear to pick up KOs or massive damage with a spread move can be very straining, even with teams that are meant to counter landorus such as Ting lu Special Defense cores and snow. It is definitely not fun having to dance around a move that hits harder than groundon's precipice blades off one of the faster pokemon in the format and personally I would like to discuss looking at this pokemon a little more closely because supposed counters like wellspring and Ninetales and chien pao are only so effective when you can still get nailed by sludge bomb or lose the trade to sand sear chipping them and KOing the other slot of a pokemon that requires no setup.

:ting-lu: What a guy man. This pokemon stands as the best blanket check to special offense in the format aside from perhaps AV raging bolt. Ting lu priority offense is honestly a great metagame adaptation that really flipped things on its head without completely undermining the format. The metagame of recent months has trended away from the once-commonplace practice of carrying disruption moves such as taunt on lando-t back in DLC 1 and it's left a lot of opportunity for ting lu to start playing its little hazards game again. Ting lu's rise has the potential to go much farther than it already has and I for one am loving how its impacting the metagame and the potential adaptations it may soon force out of teams. I've also experimented with snarl + sand tomb which has felt very solid on the right teams over the whirlwind + hazards + stabs sets and overall I'm glad that this guy alongside snow is helping to keep the metagame a little slower than just being a special offense versus pao phys offense banana show right now.

:ninetales-alola: Snow is in an interesting spot right now, the community having gotten over new meta syndrome with when snow was pushing the forefront of the metagame a few months back, I feel snow has been a bit slow to develop new strategies in the face of modern special offense and ting lu structures, nevermind bagel's excellent sun sample that's really revitalized that archetype and punishes conventional snow pretty well. Still, I've seen a few adaptations such as fangame's addition of suicune on fanroom, a pokemon special offense really struggles to deal with, and some players using glimmora to help patch the hazards matchup on their own snow teams. I think there is still a lot of potential to explore here, especially with more disruptive sets on Ninetales such as encore + disable or roar which can get the jump on ting lu trying to phase some of the bulky setup mons you might try on snow. I think a faster kyurem sets to get the jump on pokemon such as glimmora and other faster mons when combined with glaciate speed drops are heavily underexplored right now, one of the biggest issues with snow I've felt has been the lack of speed control as the teams sometimes solely try to win through outbulking opponents, lending to the structure feeling a bit linear. Still, snow teams are exceptionally good at maintaining an unbreakable position if they take a lead in momentum and I will not be writing the archetype off anytime soon

:baxcalibur: On the tails of discussing snow, I think bax is heavily underrepresented in the metagame right now. So many different good sets to prey upon a litany of ice-weak pokemon in the metagame and an aboslute nuclear bomb of a signature move off its incredible attack stat. Definitely feels underused right now.

:ogerpon: :ogerpon-wellspring: :ogerpon-cornerstone: :ogerpon-hearthflame: The gap between these guys is getting a bit smaller, and it's not hard to see why. With most tornadus in the format opting to go bulky right now, ogerpon has almost nothing contesting its speed tier among common pokemon, leaving hearthflame and cornerstone to bonk targets as they please. I've personally been finding Play Rough to be a great alternative to grass stab on these guys lately, it puts some fear into the bulky dragons (or dragon terad gholdengos who think they're safe). There's so many other fantastic moves in these mons' kit that go underutilized such as encore, u-turn, and knock off and I hope to see more innovation because honestly they all have a role to play in their own way.

:kingambit: I may be crazy for saying this but it feels like this mon has steadily declined over recent months, peaking when KLIFO was common and sort of fading into the background since. Sort of feels like diancie in that it can absolutely run a train on unprepared teams but in a world where the best pokemon of the format can nuke it with its STAB, ogerpon threatens to take its most defining attribute away in sucker punch threats, and intimidate usage has largely declined from the days of 40%+ lando-t usage and Incin + lando sharing the spotlight post DLC 2 when flutter was still around, it's more of a matchup fish than a consistent win condition. Gambit can still definitely take trades and pin boards even in bad matchups though, so it's not the end of the world for this guy, though I rarely find myself wanting to run it unless it's specifically to counterteam a scout.

:farigiraf: Insanely good pokemon. Establishes control over slower teams so effectively that it really doesn't need to do anything else. The full sets on this pokemon has never quite felt solved to me between throat spray, sitrus or even seed variants but honestly it never really needed to have a perfect set. One of my favorite metagame presences that continues to feel better as the generation progresses.

:archaludon: What an insane fall-off from where it was during the suspect. Regidrago and ursaluna's rise around derby and seasonal really damaged this pokemon's consistency as a win condition when compounded with the presence of the already great Landorus and Gholdengo. Then to make things even worse for it ting lu rose to consistent usability as a phazer and completely halted this pokemon's ability to freely stack electroshot boosts and steamroll teams that struggled to break it down in time. While I do still think there's room to adapt structures so support acrhaludon as a win condition, or even just a general-purpose physical wall thanks to its typing and ability, it is undeniable that the format has become well adapted for the big not-so-scary staple remover and dethroned its status as a suspect-worthy threat.

:tyranitar: In a similar vein to ting lu, Tyranitar is a great response to special offense teams and slowly garnered respect over the past several months, spearheaded by esm's sand team. Knock off and sand chip do Tyranitar a lot of favors as a standalone physical breaker in a format where most physical attackers are usually associated with chien-pao or more supportive such as iron hands, ogerpon and rillaboom. In my eyes Tyranitar stands alongside Raging Bolt as one of the best ways in the format to build in a response to tornadus on teams without relying on your own tornadus to match it or resorting to trick room and has just enough going for it in that department that it is worth using despite its weakness to the ever-present iron hands, ogerpon, and rillaboom.

:rillaboom: :iron hands: :incineroar: All three of these pokemon have risen to tier 1 and in my eyes are almost exactly the same in terms of relative strength and viability. Fake out (and really, priority in general) is absolutely critical counterplay against opposing speed control in this format and all three of these pokemon excel in different aspects of using it. Incineroar's insane compression allows it to work wonders on teams that want to go all-out on supporting their offensive slots. Rillaboom's access to secondary priority, resistance to ground and ability to generate healing for the team makes it a natural option on balance cores and slower teams that need ways to clean up KOs and appreciate a bulwark against Landorus and Ursaluna, pokemon could that otherwise pose massive problems. Iron hands may as well be second coming of melmetal himself if he only had an ability and leverages its fighting type and physical bulk absurdly well into snow, ting lu and pao teams and is generally great at pressuring hard matchups while still doing its job as a fake out support. I build these three pokemon in almost exactly even amounts and every competent player in the format needs to know how to use them properly, or how to build teams in the absence of having one of these pokemon (which usually means having chien-pao and other priority attackers instead, or playing to deny priority entirely with farig/psy terrain). I discussed about how good farigiraf feels and a large part of that is one of these three being on well over over half the teams in the format in pretty much every tournament and each level of ladder. In my eyes these three define SV DOU just as much as tornadus tailwind does and that's not going to change anytime soon.

:pecharunt: I nommed this guy for tier 5 beacuse it's honestly put in some good work lately. Really effective at preying upon ting lu teams andsort of beats glimmora at its own game when it comes to spreading poison and being generally annoying. Dual confusion hax can lead to some really stupid outcomes and has just enough other options in its toolkit such as recover and parting shot that it can absolutely ruin somebody's game if they run out of checks for it late. Probably not something that will pick up too much but I do think it represents an opportunity in the metagame for more disruptive strategies to find a foothold again that isn't really being explored.


TL;DR I like the current state of SV dou, metagame development is still occurring, albeit at a slower pace than before, and there is great value in getting calls correct. Common structures have good variety within them and fairly even matchup spreads, though there's still a lot of matchup fish mons like archaludon, diancie, gambit, etc. Genies of a healthy metagame still feel kind of thanos with their signature moves complementing each other extremely well and said moves causing a lot of frustrating game variance via misses or speed drops in torn's case, not a huge fan of these two but it's not ruining my experience of the metagame (matchup fishing is what usually does that) so I suppose it's fine for now in my eyes. Good tier overall, feels like it could improve but I can't tangibly state how other than hoping teams magically develop ways for hard matchup fish mons to go away entirely
 
It's only been a few months since I last posted in here but my opinion on SV has radically shifted in that time. This metagame is dogshit. After taking the time to familiarize myself with Natdex, XY, DPP and BW, I've drastically altered how I think a format should function and what is fun to play. This tier has a disease known as hyper-offense spearheaded by two genies, a ice cat, and a piece of shit staple remover that should've been banned in the last suspect. The last several months have seen various forms of snow balance, Sand bulky offense, and Ting lu hazard spam all rise and subsequently fall to various forms of Chien-pao hyper offense, Tornadus tailwind Special offense with landorus, regidrago, gholdengo, or Ursaluna as abusers, and Archaludon Rain which masquerades as a balance structure but really just plays to keep the big stupid boosting OHKO machine alive and maybe throw in Sandsear storm spam or a water nuker such as wellspring or basculegion for good measure. Any attempts to build a balance team runs the risk of getting decimated by one of the aforementioned HO archetypes due to not being able to account for the absurd coverage of mons like chien pao and landorus in the format, not being offensive enough to break archaludon rain, or not being sturdy enough to survive the onslaught of physical attackers that chien pao enables to do obscene levels of damage in the format.

If we look at SCL statistics we can see that at the highest level of play the format is just as if not even more centralized as it was when flutter mane was terrorizing the format. Ogerpon-wellspring is trying its very best to hold things together but at the end of the day the only way it can do so if by itself running an offensive set that speed creeps landorus, compromising its own bulk in the process and itself becoming an offensive threat that balance structures in the tier are further pressure to respond to (usually by running their own, equally offensive wellspring with a grass move). Almost nothing else in the format can switch in on landorus, owing to the absurd power of the electrics in the format and perhaps the only greater issue than landorus itself, chien-pao.
1730338925660.png



:chien-pao:
This pokemon has been hovering a 65-70% winrate in SCL with the 3rd highest use rate. It goes without saying that chien-pao is the textbook definition of a glass cannon pokemon, pretty much exclusively opting to run a focus sash set with maximum offensive investment. There is no better pokemon to represent where the metagame is at as a whole than chien-pao, in my opinion. We've watched Spurrific and other SCL players abuse this pokemon to hell and back with various partners including an as-yet undefeated dragapult as well as pao simply on its lonesome causing problems for all who dare face it. I know common DOU sentiment is to ignore statistics but I feel that this is too great an outlier to ignore, especially accounting for how the actual games played out. Chien-pao is the most common lead pokemon in the format right now (aside from dedicated rocks users such as glimmora and mew) and more importantly, it is consistently winning regardless of how the opponent responds. This pokemon's uncontested speed tier, nearly unresisted coverage thanks to SV's lack of viable fairy and water types, access to priority and ability to get value even while protecting thanks to its ability to enable its teammate make chien-pao almost impossible to pin down and turn most boards into guessing games that are almost always in the pao user's favor. it's utility as the one of the best landorus/tornadus checks in the format with its inherently stupid power means that one of the best ways to answer offensive teams in the format is itself one of the most offensive pokemon in the game. It's very telling when supposedly slower teams such as ting lu hazard stack are themselves relying on chien-pao to function, a pokemon which again, is the most offensive and volatile pokemon in the format, leaving even these supposedly more balanced teams inconsistent defensively. This all would be fine if we could opt to use bulkier pokemon such as volcanion and screens as we did in the HOME metagame to adapt to chien-pao offense but such pokemon and team structures have been rendered unviable by faster and more consistent archetypes such as Archaludon rain, which will gladly spam electro shot while slower teams hopelessly try to mitigate its damage, and landorus-enabled offense cores, which gladly prey upon volcanion and heatran as well as most other slower pokemon that simply lose too much tempo to the likes of nasty plot gholdengo, Swords dance Kingambit who renders intimidate users worthless, and other bit speed-control enabled threats in the metagame. It is therefore my opinion that chien-pao should be Suspected as soon as possible for the sake of metagame health, its nature as a glass cannon and ability to eliminate the vast majority of pokemon in the metagame while simultaneously being the fastest top tier pokemon creates an unsustainable level of volatility in the metagame that pushes every team towards being more offensive in combination with other threats in the builder.

:archaludon:
This pokemon might be the greatest matchup fisher dou has seen since diancie, and even into supposed bad matchups such as landorus and sacred sword users its teammates and access to tera enable it to still find paths to victory. If a structure *does* exist that can defensively hinder landorus AND chien pao teams in its own way in the format, it certainly cannot also handle Archaludon rain thanks to the absurdity that is electro shot. Attempts to mitigate archaludon with Snarl simply lead to it being able to click body press in a few turns, Setting up screens into archaludon a la Ninetales alola or grimsnarl leaves your board largely passive and vulnerable to STAB flash cannon. You can attempt to ignore it but what pokemon can sponge archaludon's onslaught long enough to eliminate its teammates aside from amoonguss, a pokemon that is very easily pressured by common flying attacks on rain and struggles to find spore value in a metagame where tera grass is extremely common for landorus and Ogerpon's forms combine to be over 50% usage. This pokemon forces you to make more offensive decisions in builder or risk getting steamrolled in an unplayable matchup and it's presence in the metagame is in my opinion extremely unhealthy, and will only be made even worse if any other suspect-worthy pokemon should be removed from the format, please consider resuspecting in the future.

:landorus: :tornadus:
Across every tournament and every metagame development of the last several months these two pokemon have remained at the top of the tier and continue to wreak havoc. So much time has been spent complaining about the variability of bleakwind storm, the fact that tornadus' prankster tailwind with covert cloak or tera ghost is effectively unpreventable, the fact that landorus has nearly unresisted coverage with just 2 move slots while hitting harder than most restricted pokemon would even be able to, I think these two both warrant suspects at some point, I know I personally am very tired of looking at teams in my builder and realizing that the only way I don't lose to torn + lando being next to each other is to burn tera or load up chien-pao/wellspring.

:flutter-mane:
I wanted to address this pokemon as there is a growing sentiment in the community that freeing this pokemon may bring some form of stabilization to the format via centralization, including among many of my friends. I have seen such statistics cited as the average length of games going DOWN in the wake of a flutter mane ban and that having a looming top presence to keep other pokemon in check would be a necessary evil for this generation of DOU to remain somewhat balanced and reduce matchup variance that so thoroughly plagues the format right now. I could not disagree more. Adding flutter mane back to the format won't stop Archaludon rain from demolishing diancie trick room teams and balance cores, or stop iron hands/glimmora or iron head kingambits from rolling over snow teams, or stop snow teams from obliterating genies cores, it will only add another offensive element to the metagame that, like chien-pao, will serve to check offense with more offense. You don't reduce matchup variance in a metagame by adding more offensive elements, even if said elements have a widely positive matchup spread into the metagame; this just means you're adding a broken pokemon! Matchup fishing and hax variance are reduced when a format is tiered such that balance cores are able to function defensively instead of being forced to load up a glass cannon like flutter or pao to out-offense opposing threats. I understand that the metagame has evidently only gotten more volatile and unstable and offensive since Flutter's ban but I believe this is a result of us failing to curb the power of offense effectively enough in this metagame rather than as a consequence of Flutter Mane's banning.

TL;DR:
I believe that SV is due for a chien-pao suspect, though numerous other pokemon in the format are currently problematic. It's nice to envision a reality where one piece of tiering action would solve this format's issues but I think the reality is that SV added an absurd amount of unhealthy pokemon and we as a community need to stop wasting 6 months dawdling over pushing out an evasion ban and start doing actual tiering. This is not to disrespect the work of the council or the playerbase but I'm begun to grow very tired of how things are in SV and think we could all do a bit better in improving the metagame by having real discussions and committing to real action.
 
Last edited:
I think the ideal SV metagame you are looking for either doesn't exist or is DUU. To compare to SS, most of the power creep in this gen is inherently tied to the Pokemon themselves, whereas a lot of the SS power creep either came from the Dynamax mechanic itself or from a pool of Pokemon we banned from the tier (Urshifus, Gothitelle). Chien-Pao was made to be incredible. Archaludon was designed to be stupid. Genies were designed to be busted. But so were/are Chi-Yu, Whimsicott, Gholdengo, Ursaluna, Ogerpon, etc.

It is my genuine belief that we can view the tier through two lenses: the first being that everything is so broken that we start suspecting and banning Pokemon constantly for the next 3 months, or we accept that this a power crept tier and you are opting into it by choosing to play the metagame. No, I am not allergic to statistics. SCL is a tournament where players want to win. I have been responsible for all of Spurrific's builds in particular so I believe I am one of the most qualified to speak on Pao in the current tier. Through the second lens, the one that I believe to be more reasonable, I cannot find Pao to be broken. I think players aren't using enough Iron Hands. I think they're forgetting the Choice Scarf item is very good. Not considering that Glimmora is a problematic lead matchup for it and its common teammates, not using enough Incineroar, and not using the tera mechanic to patch up teams that are potentially weak to Chien Pao. Hell, bagel brought Primarina last week as a response to our Pao usage. Xrn busted out Wisp Volc + Bax. The answers are there. I feel this Pokemon is linear. It is doing pretty much the same thing every time, even so much as only opting to run pretty much two teras: ghost and stellar. I think Pao is probably the best Pokemon in the tier, so give it the respect it needs in the teambuilder and in the game.

Archaludon is not a matchup fish Pokemon and quite honestly I am quite perplexed at how one could arrive at that conclusion. It is a skill checkpoint. For one thing, it is a fairly easy Pokemon to force a tera out of and drain that resource from your opponent. It sits at a pretty awkward speed tier, meaning that you can choose to blitz in before it moves or go after in TR with mons like Ursalunas and Torkoal. The team structures are also pretty particular too. It really wants Pelipper support so that it can instantly snowball, but that requires running pelipper. It can only be kept healthy with puff or it can run lefties and choose not to patch its SpDef. There are multiple SCL replays showing how to overwhelm these types of teams. Archaludon rain is just an archetype where the better player can look really impressive when they pull off a beatdown on the opp because that is how the Pokemon is designed to function. Also hit the Pokemon more, +2 0def EVs nonstab Body Press isn't blowing holes in anybody.

Tornadus might be banworthy but if it were suspected today I'd probably vote DNB. I think it's a risk vs reward simulator. Bleakwind is an overtuned move but it also might blow up in your face if you choose to click the button without rain up. Not unreasonable for the board to be something that genies can't just punch through either and then it feels like you've got torn on the field for nothing. Idk man it's just a good Pokemon to me. You don't have to opt into the tailwind race if you don't want to, there's plenty of other options.

I agree about keeping flutter banned tho. also ban evasion <3
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top