Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 10: Here I Go Again | Flutter Mane banned

[SMB]

This last DLC turned Flutter Mane from what was in my eyes a borderline tier 1 pokemon into a solid tier 1 pokemon, indisputably the best pokemon in the tier right now as reflected by the usage stats.
One of the factors that made this possible was the addition of numerous new dragon-type pokemon, incineroar and deoxys, with flutter mane having a fairly positive matchup against all of them, and hardly any new counterplay at all, or very niche in the likes of excadrill or metagross.

With that said, the counterplay for flutter mane is the same as in the previous suspect test. Is this bad? Not really, because those checks it had before are still just as good now with a few exceptions like gholdengo or heatran (both of them are more underused than what they should tho, probably a big reason is incineroar, I think incineroar is way worse than what the vr reflects but this is a different topic).
Rillaboom and priority are as common as before, priority spam even has a new tool with entei replacing dragonite that improves the flutter mane matchup. Volcanion probably sees less use but I advocate that it is much better now than it was before, incineroar is not any better than volcanion atm. Trick room got a new solid and reliable trick room setter in p2, which really makes the difference because being able to set trick room twice in this meta is huge. I could expand on some of them but iI believe these are the main ones.

In reference to the high use of Flutter Mane, well you only have to count the amount of dragon and dark pokemon that are currently viable. There are too many, plus also a stats monster like iron hands so you can't get wrong by using Flutter Mane since most teams are going to have at least 1 or 2 of these. That's the main point why its usage has increased. Nevertheless, the presence of Flutter Mane doesn't completely drop them from the viability ranking at all and in fact, I consider it a healthy presence because, apart from being a pokemon that has some difficulties trading 1v1 which in my eyes is the main reason why it isn't broken, so using flutter mane still requires some skill, when you look at the other fairy types on the viability ranking or even in the whole game, I really don't see another fairy type that could keep these pokemon in check. Just to name a few of the other most used fairy types in dou; diancie, whimsicott, ninetales... So this means there aren't really better options or alternatives to use in the Flutter Mane slot.

I will be voting do not ban, although it is true that its usage has increased and it is a better pokemon because it has a favourable matchup against many of the new elements, i see nothing that pushes it to be considered not healthy or too good for the tier. Its checks are still the same and its usage is justified because there are no alternatives to an offensive fairy type in a metagame full of dark and dragon types.

 

[zCriTiCaL]

i'm also on the no ban side of flutter but using ladder rating to put down other people's arguments is not great, a blind dog can get to top 10 on DOU ladder if it was trained to lead deoxys indeedee and click expanding force every turn

Would you like a screenshot of my team? I use neither Flutter Mane, nor Deox/Terrain. As you can see I literally asked for that thing to be annihilated. But I haven't asked for it to be banned, just because I didn't like it. I play around most of these threats ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

 

[Fangame10]

Lmao

Would you like a screenshot of my team? I use neither Flutter Mane, nor Deox/Terrain. As you can see I literally asked for that thing to be annihilated. But I haven't asked for it to be banned, just because I didn't like it. I play around most of these threats ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

>Joins Smogon today

>Insults everyone in this thread for making constructive arguments about Flutter Mane instead of adding to the discussion like a normal person

>Thinks that people not liking something is not a legitimate reason for a ban

>Thinks raging bolt is overpowered

>Argues that ladder ELO is all that matters for opinion and calls everyone bad including the other VGC players who play this tier

>Can only make number 13 on ladder when I can make #1 and get 2000 ELO with snow trick room ez

>Urshifu whataboutism just because ogerpon exists. Probably thinks Zacian was healthy in generation 8 because of Incineroar and Calyrex ez countered by Wide Guard

>Insists that 4v4 VGC balance applies to doubles OU 6v6, probably thinks Basculegion-male is balanced and insists this to

>Lurk More

 

[Nido-Rus]

Others have already covered most of what I want to say, but I'll add on what I can. I still agree with what I wrote for last suspect about flutter mane here. Since then I'd say the problem has only become worse. One thing I mentioned in my previous post is that around that time, flutter had been serving a role moreso as an 'enabler' rather than an outright endgame cleaner. It was particularly good at keeping certain threats at bay to allow other strong pokemon to stay on the field and set up or just do big damage.

I think the changes in the meta that have occurred since then have pretty significantly modified flutter's role. It's still amazing at that same role as before of an enabler, becoming even better at that with booster speed icy wind sets working really well with lando-I, waterpon, chi yu, glimmora etc kind of mons. Along with this, though, flutter has once again become incredibly strong as an early game damage dealer as well as endgame cleaner.

There are a few root causes for this. The first is that DLC2 introduced pokemon that work really well at supporting flutter, such as incineroar, archaludon, and other pokemon that were paired with flutter got quite a bit better (waterpon, glimmora). Another factor is DLC2 introducing good pokemon that are weak to flutter- raging bolt hates flutter and deo-A can't contend very well with speed booster flutter. Finally, the biggest factor is probably that most of the passive flutter checks from previous metas have lost viability due to the DLC2 changes. Amoonguss and tera'd iron hands were probably the best flutter checks around, but the introduction of psyspam and increased viability of lando-I waterpon comps have significantly limited how usable these are. These changes have also hurt fire type checks such as heatran or volcanion. Finally, even rillaboom has lost viability as it now often needs to contend with indeedee in terrain wars, limiting its ability to switch in and out often.

All of this leads to a situation where teams are completely overloaded by the number of threats they need to deal with, often opting for offensively checking threats by beating down opposing teams with hyper offense rather than attempting to go for defensive counterplay. In the cases where they do opt for defensive counterplay, this is often very limited in scope and results in teams that are forced to run few to no fairy resists to give themselves the space to defensively account for other threats. Take this recent DPL replay as an example.

As such, I'll be voting to ban. Due to how consequential this vote is and how much it will transform the rest of the format, it's hard to say what may or may not become broken as a result of this, but our first priority is to fix the current situation at hand, and I believe flutter ban will be the best first step to doing that.

 

[GenOne]

Hi! Giving you the benefit of the doubt that these are genuine questions and comments, I've replied below.

Hahaha. This has to be an absolute joke. Instead of literally raining fire on that monstrosity called Raging Bolt (and for the love of all things holy... that Terrain/Deox combo) people are yapping about Flutter Mane.

While Flutter Mane is the main topic of this thread, these threads are also welcoming to other thoughts on the state of the DOU metagame. Flutter Mane is the current target of a suspect test because a survey we recently held for the community indicated that a Flutter Mane suspect was the most widely supported suspect. As for Deoxys-A, it is the next most widely supported suspect to be held and that has not gone unnoticed; while a Deoxys-A suspect wasn't quite as widely supported as a Flutter Mane it is definitely on our radar, and I'll go as far as to say some people in the community consider Deoxys-A more problematic than Flutter Mane.

As for Raging Bolt, the onus falls to you to share evidence (replays, team examples, etc.) that showcase how this Pokemon is problematic for the metagame, since such claims have not been raised by others in the community. My personal take is that Raging Bolt is at best a situationally good team member in DOU but nowhere close to being suspect worthy.

And I might not be a top 10 player, but as someone who's been at N⁰13 (1800+) these comments seem more like excuses.

Reaching #13 on the ladder is something to be proud of - nice work! But ladder results are far from the only qualifier of what makes someone knowledgeable about the metagame. A large portion of our community doesn't actively ladder, but consistently performs well in DOU's team tournaments (like Doubles Premier League) and circuit tournaments like Official Smogon Doubles Tournament IV - arguably of which are the "gold standard" for showcasing skill in the tier, although this isn't to discount the talent of a good ladder player either!

And I don't even use Flutter Mane, 90% of the time. What are they crying about? The unbelievably low HP and Defence stats?

The low HP and Defense stats are easily mitigated by Flutter Mane's abundance of Special Attack and/or Speed that it can afford to divest into patching up its physical bulk; it's deceptively bulky in the hands of the right player.

The manageable speed, with TR/Tork-Lil/Scarf?

Sun-boosted Lilligant is an anomaly as pretty much the only weather beneficiary that can outspeed a Protosynthesis-boosted Flutter Mane. And funny enough, sun teams' own weather somewhat backfires into opposing Flutter Manes since they also gain a Protosynthesis boost even if they aren't intended to.

But regarding basically any other weather beneficiary, "traditionally" decent options like Kingdra and Excadrill for example can't even outspeed a Protosynthesis-boosted Flutter Mane when using Timid/Jolly natures. Likewise, many would-be decent Choice Scarf users also can't outspeed Flutter Mane. This can be oppressive in the teambuilder, many would argue.

Trick Room is Trick Room - no arguing there that it's good into faster opponents so I won't bother going there.

When did the game become so pathetic? I don't like many things that hard counter me. Does that mean I vote to ban them? No. Being a good player has become more about crying and asking to shift the game, instead of adapting.

This is your opinion and you're entitled to it, but you have to understand that we simply aim to balance Doubles OU using the same Tiering Policy and practices that every other Smogon tier uses. You don't have to like it but this tier is meant for people who want to enjoy 6v6 doubles formats where the community aims to balance it through an active community that partakes in suspect tests. Many people enjoy this format and the community we offer!

Wanna ask them to ban Urshifu from VGC too, folks? Cause last time I saw people used Ogerpon, hard countering it.

We have no sway over VGC nor do we aim to. The VGC community is also great and they offer great 4v4 doubles formats that are governed by The Pokemon Company itself. In fact, a lot of Doubles OU's playerbase are also active VGC players!

Would you like a screenshot of my team? I use neither Flutter Mane, nor Deox/Terrain. As you can see I literally asked for that thing to be annihilated. But I haven't asked for it to be banned, just because I didn't like it. I play around most of these threats ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

Unironically, a sample of the teams you're using as well as notable replays would go a long way in making your case. Not mandatory by any means, but definitely helpful.

Anyways, hope this is somewhat helpful or at least gives your post the due process of a sincere answer!

 

[zCriTiCaL]

Alright. This has been quite the rise of reactions, so far. Now let's begin with the fact that some of the folks have been... irritated, at the very least. Funny enough, as that was never my goal. But I don't mind a few snowflakes calling me out. On a separate note, I'd like to thank the few people that were decent enough while writing back and thank them, for their time. It's funny how just because of a placement on the tier people have been complaining. As someone who came out expressing an opinion, I have to basically explain where it's coming from. In the middle of all the insanely skilled player base, expressing my opinion without any achievement attached to it (although a small one and I did point it out. So what's the drama about?), it would be irrelevant. You say something being the new newbie on low/no ladder and people laugh at you. You say something while playing on high ladder and people go berserk. It's a loss either way. People will always judge. But the ones that caught my eye are the ones that think I'm insulting others, because of my score. This has to be the funniest reaction ever. Trying to put me down with their own scores, as some sort of "mine's bigger" ಥ⁠‿⁠ಥ

There's no point in arguing about one's ELO, simply because it wouldn't matter other than having some background experience. In the middle of all the literal champions, you need to have something to show for. I literally spent 1 sentence on that. Explaining how I am not some almighty entity.

The only case that was made was about trying to ban something that you don't like. And yes. That's literally not a reason. Raging Bolt and Deox/Terrain are some things I don't like either. We've went from trying to adapt to crying and asking for others to hold our winnie. I call it as I see it. No backlash will change that.

 

[Marreant]

Alright. This has been quite the rise of reactions, so far. Now let's begin with the fact that some of the folks have been... irritated, at the very least. Funny enough, as that was never my goal. But I don't mind a few snowflakes calling me out. On a separate note, I'd like to thank the few people that were decent enough while writing back and thank them, for their time. It's funny how just because of a placement on the tier people have been complaining. As someone who came out expressing an opinion, I have to basically explain where it's coming from. In the middle of all the insanely skilled player base, expressing my opinion without any achievement attached to it (although a small one and I did point it out. So what's the drama about?), it would be irrelevant. You say something being the new newbie on low/no ladder and people laugh at you. You say something while playing on high ladder and people go berserk. It's a loss either way. People will always judge. But the ones that caught my eye are the ones that think I'm insulting others, because of my score. This has to be the funniest reaction ever. Trying to put me down with their own scores, as some sort of "mine's bigger" ಥ⁠‿⁠ಥ

There's no point in arguing about one's ELO, simply because it wouldn't matter other than having some background experience. In the middle of all the literal champions, you need to have something to show for. I literally spent 1 sentence on that. Explaining how I am not some almighty entity.

The only case that was made was about trying to ban something that you don't like. And yes. That's literally not a reason. Raging Bolt and Deox/Terrain are some things I don't like either. We've went from trying to adapt to crying and asking for others to hold our winnie. I call it as I see it. No backlash will change that.

this website needs more people like you, able to state what is and what isn't without fear of "offending" someone else's opposite views.

 

[Actuarily]

There are still votes remaining, but the result is decided. With Ban having received over 60% of the vote already, Flutter Mane will be banned from SV DOU. The current voting breakdown is as follows:

Ban: 39 (60.00%)
Do Not Ban: 17 (26.15%)
Votes Remaining: 9 (13.85)
Total Voters: 65

Tagging dhelmise to implement, thanks!!

Post below your thoughts on this new metagame change, and any other metagame elements you wish to discuss!

 

[Marreant]

as pointed out before, this will open up the ability to play more Steel types, gives their secondary type currently suffers from Flatter Mane coverage.
quite interesting to see how things will unfold, one question tho, when does the ban take effect?
thank you

 

[Howfalcons]

Nice, an archaludon buff

 

[SuckyLucky]

IRON HANDS T1 SOON BABY LETS GOOOO

 

[zCriTiCaL]

this website needs more people like you, able to state what is and what isn't without fear of "offending" someone else's opposite views.

Offending someone was never my goal. I had to come from somewhere, to make a comment... The backlash was unreal ಥ⁠‿⁠ಥ

 

[Test Bots]

Hahaha. This has to be an absolute joke. Instead of literally raining fire on that monstrosity called Raging Bolt (and for the love of all things holy... that Terrain/Deox combo) people are yapping about Flutter Mane. And I might not be a top 10 player, but as someone who's been at N⁰13 (1800+) these comments seem more like excuses. And I don't even use Flutter Mane, 90% of the time. What are they crying about? The unbelievably low HP and Defence stats? The manageable speed, with TR/Tork-Lil/Scarf? When did the game become so pathetic? I don't like many things that hard counter me. Does that mean I vote to ban them? No. Being a good player has become more about crying and asking to shift the game, instead of adapting. Wanna ask them to ban Urshifu from VGC too, folks? Cause last time I saw people used Ogerpon, hard countering it.

This community is actually very welcoming and can easily tell if a said player is new to the meta. A lot of us are willing to help. The problem (I would say) was your tone. Read your post like you would read someone else's post and you might see what I mean by this.

 

[Actuarily]

as pointed out before, this will open up the ability to play more Steel types, gives their secondary type currently suffers from Flatter Mane coverage.
quite interesting to see how things will unfold, one question tho, when does the ban take effect?
thank you

so the ban will take effect on Pokemon Showdown as soon as the admins are able to implement (which can be anything from hours to a couple of days).

As for ongoing tournaments, since this ban was implemented before any tour games had been played, it’s been banned for Doubles Ladder Tour round 3 & Doubles Premier League week 4.

 

[Actuarily]

Wanted to give a quick “views from the council” type post. Due to the responses on the survey, Deoxys-Attack is absolutely on council’s radar for a potential suspect. But, with Flutter Mane having been a very centralizing part of the metagame (with around 75%ish usage), while also being an excellent partner for Deoxys-Attack, the council wants to give the metagame a little time to adjust after the Flutter Mane ban. So we won’t be suspecting Deoxys-Attack starting Friday, but may very well in the coming weeks.

Feel free to post below your thoughts on Deo-A, or any other changes in the post-Flutter metagame!

 

[Fangame10]

ban deoa

 

[SuckyLucky]

I think Deo-A is still certainly a massive threat in the metagame, but I do agree with a suspect not being required immediately. Deo LOVED having Flutter around even if they weren't on the field at the same time, esp. since Chi-Yu was extremely common on Psyspam teams (See Eragon's team he gave us for the suspect), and it's hard to instantly replace that slot. Something like Lillikoal can work, but put even more reliance on gimmicky sets. There isn't just a Flutter Mane Jr. that can come in and immediately replace it, especially with the blistering speed (or Trick Room) it would require.

With Flutter gone, there are so many more viable dark types that Deo-A just can't deal with by spamming Expanding Force, and Rillaboom being so consistently good can often force games of switching in and out with Indeedee and Rillaboom to reset terrain without actually making progress. Also, with Archaludon & Rain teams becoming even better in the absence of Flutter, Pelipper running Wide Guard can just completely blank Deo-A for a turn or two - something that Deo-A really can't afford. It needs all the pressure and offense it can dish out. Also, I can't really tell if this relates to Flutter or not but I've seen a lot more Trick Room (blegh) on ladder recently, something that completely stuffs Deoxys. I think it can still certainly blow teams open if used properly/dominate low ladder, but it certainly isn't the threat it was with Flutter by its side.

tl;dr Flutter being broken made Deo-A broken, without Flutter helping it be broken it is significantly less broken. Can still farm low ladder but most high-end players have more leeway around it now.

 

[zCriTiCaL]

Wanted to give a quick “views from the council” type post. Due to the responses on the survey, Deoxys-Attack is absolutely on council’s radar for a potential suspect. But, with Flutter Mane having been a very centralizing part of the metagame (with around 75%ish usage), while also being an excellent partner for Deoxys-Attack, the council wants to give the metagame a little time to adjust after the Flutter Mane ban. So we won’t be suspecting Deoxys-Attack starting Friday, but may very well in the coming weeks.

Feel free to post below your thoughts on Deo-A, or any other changes in the post-Flutter metagame!

I'm going to get so much hate for this... But I'll try my best to not being the usual irritating piece of garbage I am ಥ⁠‿⁠ಥ

Few days ago I was on the "I wouldn't mind if Deox-A was annihilated" side, despite not asking for it's permanent ban. In all honesty with the rise of Wide Guard, Terrain exchanges, Choice Scarf Gholdengo (a personal favourite), TR, the increased amount of darkies ️ taking over (plus Tera Dark, that's sometimes unexpected), Ice Spinner Chien-Pao and even some bulky Steel Pokémon I think we're going to be just fine with Deox-A. It comes down to being prepared for something that's considered as big of a threat as this specific combo. Just like Eruption/Sun teams and just like Dragon Energy spams. I know I've always been on the "no need to ban, just because I don't like it" side, but this is literally a case of plenty viable counters to it. Hope this isn't considered "offensive" by the usual folks.

 

[Test Bots]

I'm going to get so much hate for this... But I'll try my best to not being the usual irritating piece of garbage I am ಥ⁠‿⁠ಥ

Few days ago I was on the "I wouldn't mind if Deox-A was annihilated" side, despite not asking for it's permanent ban. In all honesty with the rise of Wide Guard, Terrain exchanges, Choice Scarf Gholdengo (a personal favourite), TR, the increased amount of darkies ️ taking over (plus Tera Dark, that's sometimes unexpected), Ice Spinner Chien-Pao and even some bulky Steel Pokémon I think we're going to be just fine with Deox-A. It comes down to being prepared for something that's considered as big of a threat as this specific combo. Just like Eruption/Sun teams and just like Dragon Energy spams. I know I've always been on the "no need to ban, just because I don't like it" side, but this is literally a case of plenty viable counters to it. Hope this isn't considered "offensive" by the usual folks.

You gotta stop putting yourself down.

Anyways, there really isn't a lot of viable Wide Guard users right now. The only terrain exchange is sending out Rilla, and having Rilla in every team is counterproductive to what should be a healthy and diverse meta. Gholdengo (not necessarily Scarf) and TR-variants are okay against Psy Spam. Dark types are useful, but still risk getting hit by Deo's Superpower.

What makes Deo crazy is not due to its spammable spread move. Rather, what sets it apart from Gholdengo or Regidrago is its naturally fast speed and power. You can't use priority moves against it (unless you have Rilla on the bench), and you have to bonk not once but twice due to its Focus Sash. It puts an unusual restraint in teambuilding because you would want to make sure that you can either outspeed in tailwind or at least survive an attack from it. If you can't survive an attack, I guess you would be using your tera for the match (depending on the situation).

Sure, there are other EF users. However, mons like Hatterene or Iron Crown often have to sacrifice something to reach its prime state. Hatterene needs TR up. Crown probably needs Booster and has not so good fighting moves.

So to conclude, can you play around Deo? Yes, but doing so is like putting objects of all shapes into the square hole. Your supposed "dedicated checks/counters" are "good" against Deo, but that doesn't mean your team is well-balanced for the rest of the meta, does it?

 

[SuckyLucky]

You gotta stop putting yourself down.

Anyways, there really isn't a lot of viable Wide Guard users right now. The only terrain exchange is sending out Rilla, and having Rilla in every team is counterproductive to what should be a healthy and diverse meta. Gholdengo (not necessarily Scarf) and TR-variants are okay against Psy Spam. Dark types are useful, but still risk getting hit by Deo's Superpower.

What makes Deo crazy is not due to its spammable spread move. Rather, what sets it apart from Gholdengo or Regidrago is its naturally fast speed and power. You can't use priority moves against it (unless you have Rilla on the bench), and you have to bonk not once but twice due to its Focus Sash. It puts an unusual restraint in teambuilding because you would want to make sure that you can either outspeed in tailwind or at least survive an attack from it. If you can't survive an attack, I guess you would be using your tera for the match (depending on the situation).

Sure, there are other EF users. However, mons like Hatterene or Iron Crown often have to sacrifice something to reach its prime state. Hatterene needs TR up. Crown probably needs Booster and has not so good fighting moves.

So to conclude, can you play around Deo? Yes, but doing so is like putting objects of all shapes into the square hole. Your supposed "dedicated checks/counters" are "good" against Deo, but that doesn't mean your team is well-balanced for the rest of the meta, does it?

Yeah, something else I've been seeing recently is Torn setting up Tailwind for the Deo-A/Indeedee combo so that not even Tailwind on your side will outspeed. And if you don't have your own Tailwind, Scarfers won't outspeed at all. Also Superpower just hits like a truck on things like Incin & Kingambit especially - when combined with Protect and Follow Me & even Rage Powder from Sinistcha counters just become null, especially if the support partner is Tera Fairy to eat the Knock Offs/Kowtow Cleaves/Dark Pulses.

I kind of assumed that Deo-A would fall to the wayside without its incredible partner Flutter to support it, but people have come up with even more ridiculous ways to make it work. Counterplay is more possible now, sure, but like you said your team still needs to hold up against the other 4 mons the Deo-A player is running/literally any other team type in the meta.

Just wait until Deo-A starts running Focus Blast and Shadow Ball to really ruin its "Counters".

I'm starting to think Deo-A might be less broken than I thought 24 hours ago.

Actually Insane Calcs

252 SpA Tera Psychic Deoxys-Attack Helping Hand Psycho Boost vs. 228 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon in Psychic Terrain: 266-314 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tera Psychic Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo in Psychic Terrain: 175-207 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Heatranator]

Hi, newbie to Doubles OU here. While I have played a bit of the tier, I would like to say some things that I have found while testing a unique mon, Venomoth.
Compared to other quiver users and rage powder users, venomoth seems downright bad. Like the only worse mon you could use in that scenario might be vivillion, and that is a tight race. However, it has a 2 very unique traits that it only shares with vivillion, rage powder + shield dust. Now, why is that important, it means that if an opponent fakes out venomoth, it can still get a rage powder off to direct moves towards it, meaning you can send it out alongside a threat and potentially get a free hit off while they hit weakly into venomoth (relatively speaking, it still will most likely take big damage from things not 4x resisted). It's a very small niche, but I do think it is neat. Again, probably won't be used that often, but I thought it would be nice to share it.

 

[SuckyLucky]

Hi, newbie to Doubles OU here. While I have played a bit of the tier, I would like to say some things that I have found while testing a unique mon, Venomoth.
Compared to other quiver users and rage powder users, venomoth seems downright bad. Like the only worse mon you could use in that scenario might be vivillion, and that is a tight race. However, it has a 2 very unique traits that it only shares with vivillion, rage powder + shield dust. Now, why is that important, it means that if an opponent fakes out venomoth, it can still get a rage powder off to direct moves towards it, meaning you can send it out alongside a threat and potentially get a free hit off while they hit weakly into venomoth (relatively speaking, it still will most likely take big damage from things not 4x resisted). It's a very small niche, but I do think it is neat. Again, probably won't be used that often, but I thought it would be nice to share it.

Not a bad idea in theory, however Chi-Yu, Tornadus, and Deoxys-Attack (3 of the most prominent pokemon in the metagame) all have spread moves that are super effective into Venomoth.

If you want a redirector that is immune to Fake Out, Sinistcha and Indeedee (with Psychic Terrain up) are much better options. Hope this helps!

 

[zCriTiCaL]

You gotta stop putting yourself down.

Anyways, there really isn't a lot of viable Wide Guard users right now. The only terrain exchange is sending out Rilla, and having Rilla in every team is counterproductive to what should be a healthy and diverse meta. Gholdengo (not necessarily Scarf) and TR-variants are okay against Psy Spam. Dark types are useful, but still risk getting hit by Deo's Superpower.

What makes Deo crazy is not due to its spammable spread move. Rather, what sets it apart from Gholdengo or Regidrago is its naturally fast speed and power. You can't use priority moves against it (unless you have Rilla on the bench), and you have to bonk not once but twice due to its Focus Sash. It puts an unusual restraint in teambuilding because you would want to make sure that you can either outspeed in tailwind or at least survive an attack from it. If you can't survive an attack, I guess you would be using your tera for the match (depending on the situation).

Sure, there are other EF users. However, mons like Hatterene or Iron Crown often have to sacrifice something to reach its prime state. Hatterene needs TR up. Crown probably needs Booster and has not so good fighting moves.

So to conclude, can you play around Deo? Yes, but doing so is like putting objects of all shapes into the square hole. Your supposed "dedicated checks/counters" are "good" against Deo, but that doesn't mean your team is well-balanced for the rest of the meta, does it?

I've been thinking about this and I'd like to share the team I've been using, over the past few months. Everything has a purpose on the team and I believe that the only thing that can break through it is a Dragon Energy spam team. And even that is a pretty close fight. But in all honesty I just don't mind. Being well versatile and able to handle everything isn't something that's considered achievable by only one set of team8s. Isn't this why we have a few teams on our bench? If a team isn't capable of countering whatever is popular that day on ladder I'd just use another one. I believe it comes down to adaptability. In my humble opinion, Gen 9 seems to be the most rapidly growing Gen there's ever been. I also think we recently went through a period where a team was good one week and terrible the next one. So does it come down to being prepared with multiple teams, if we want to ladder up more? I'm personally fine with the idea. It's fun facing new mind-breaking teams, that you need to work around.

As far as the darkies that we mentioned like Gambit and Pao they're probably going down from an unboosted Drain Punch (due to their 4x weakness). So I really don't think that Superpower is the main issue. And they also are a pain, because of their sash and Tera Ghost. But Rilla isn't even needed. Pelipper is an excellent Wide Guard user, that summons a weather condition and has been an OU staple for rain teams. Iron Valiant and Armarouge too. But I think all the counters are OU themselves. So, other than just dealing with Deoxys, they have an incredible toolbox that allows them to reach there. My point is that most players used these before Deoxys was even a thing ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

 

[Heatranator]

Sorry if this is annoying, but I just had to share this clip in which venomoth takes 97% from a booster attack iron hands wild charge and clutches the game for me:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2061873341

 

[TundraRage65]

A few weeks ago, Flutter Mane was banned from DOU. I want to state my concerns on a couple of pokemon for a suspect test.
Deoxys-A: A strong offensive pokemon. It shines on Psyspam teams and its impossible to check unless you have inciniroar. Although the Flutter Mane ban made it decently more manageable. I don't think that'll be enough to hold it back. I find it quite ridiculous most times, and although it's weakness is it's frailty. Under Psychic Terrain, priority isn't much of an option unless you have rillaboom. And Farigiraf is also a solid teammate for it which means even rillaboom isn't a foolproof strategy. In general, I consider it to be too strong. With proper support its a offensive menace. I'll be hoping that it'll be banned.
Archaludon: It's a fantastic rain sweeper. It takes advantage of rain by regaining its resistance to Fire and dishing out powerful Electro Shots. It's ability Stamina makes it quite tanky, and with Amoongus support it can heal back up or not take a hit at all and still be quite healthy which allows it to fire off more attacks. All Archaludons traits allow for unique team structures around it. Using all the traits that make it so great. Flutter Manes ban was definitely a contributing factor to how broken it is. Flutter Mane was one of the best checks to it. And now that it's gone, there's not much to take it on. It's physical bulk effectively make using Fighting, or Ground type moves not an option for most cases. Even without those boosts its still able to take a hit. But the fact it can be easily boosted is a huge part on what makes it incredibly difficult to take on. And special attackers are good into it. But teammates can dispatch them, Heatran is destroyed by Landorus-Therian, Enermorus has to answer to Amoongus and be wary of Electro Shot or Flash Cannon. And Sylveon is just downright enviable because of the strength of the current Meta. And Landorus-I has to deal with possible teammates designed to take it on to protect Archaludon. It's ability to take on so much of the meta and have teammates that can deal with its checks is a large contributor that makes it difficult to deal with. I'm also hoping this pokemon will possibly be banned as of right now until the Metagame finds ways to effectively deal with it.