Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

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QueenOfLuvdiscs said:
Can people actually name these checks/counters to gatr? The only one that is a counter is Poliwrath, but if people could name the others they are finding, that'd be great
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Honestly, there is no solid, completely set Check to Gatr. People are saying Poliwrath is the only counter, but it isn't even a counter
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 190-224 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
People say you can use Scarfmons like the Rotoms and Lilligant to check it, but Double Dance outspeeds both after Agility and OHKO without any boosts
Quagsire and Seismitoad lose to special HP Grass, Ferroseed loses to Sub DD and Special Focus Blast, Tangles/Plume/Geist/Leafeon all lose to powered up Ice Beams...
I understand we're rehashing a lot of points here, but when my opponent has the freedom to just lead with this mon and have the potential to AT THE VERY WORST get one kill with it (no matter what team I am using), I think we have a problem.
 
QueenOfLuvdiscs said:
The only one that is a counter is Poliwrath
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252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 190-224 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers (30.38% if you factor in Focus Blasts' Accuracy on both hits.)
sick counter bro.

apparently I was sniped by Disjunction, so to prevent this post from being void of content, I'll post my thoughts:
Can we stop beating around the bush and just QB gatr already please? It's not hard to see this thing is beyond retarded in NU.
 
My two cents on Gatr:

Gatr was already strong before it got Sheer Force; and was one of the most dominant pokemon in NU. Between it's decent bulk; high physical power; set-up ability; and great coverage; it had few checks and arguably no true counters.

And now it has Sheer Force; giving it an additional power boost which it did not have before. In fact the x1.3 boost from Sheer Force is not much smaller than the x1.5 boost Torrent gives Gatr to Waterfall alone.

It doesn't help that with Heliolisk banned; a Revenge Killer/Check to Gatr is also gone.

Sheer Force pushes an already powerful pokemon over the edge in this case; I believe.
 
CanadianWifier said:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 190-224 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers (30.38% if you factor in Focus Blasts' Accuracy on both hits.)
sick counter bro.

apparently I was sniped by Disjunction, so to prevent this post from being void of content, I'll post my thoughts:
Can we stop beating around the bush and just QB gatr already please? It's not hard to see this thing is beyond retarded in NU.
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Run 108 spdef EVs on your wrath tho. Still takes on both sets this way unless high rolls.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 108 SpD Poliwrath: 169-200 (44 - 52%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Poliwrath: 110-130 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

But yea, even I as a new player to the tier can see how this thing just goes ham.
 
I have to agree with the vast majority of posters above, Feraligatr at this time (with the inclusion of sheer force) is much too powerful for this tier.

While I lack the play and team building experience as others I have been digging through the NU tier for a reliable check or counter to this pokemon. Sadly I have been coming up with little less than a handful that are actually effective against Feraligatr, Poliwrath and some gimmick explosion pokemon with Focus Sash.

As a result I feel that its removal will be needed from this tier or at the very least the Sheer Force ability.
 
Looks like NU has taken some hits overall with all the changes in tier. I hardly believe its anyone's fault but yeah NU will either see the same 6-10 pokemon on every team or will have a resurgence of some PU mons into the tier.

Personally, I feel like change is always good for a tier and new mons being used could do just that.
 
El Coqui said:
Looks like NU has taken some hits overall with all the changes in tier. I hardly believe its anyone's fault but yeah NU will either see the same 6-10 pokemon on every team or will have a resurgence of some PU mons into the tier.

Personally, I feel like change is always good for a tier and new mons being used could do just that.
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All of the changes that have happened in the past couple of days with helio/mega lix ban + virizion and friends leaving takes so much stress off on team building you have no idea. Makes the tier much more fun and allows me + rest of community able to use your quirky fun PU mons we always wanted but never could.
Next step to a healthy meta would be a nice n quick gatr ban and a typhlosion suspect then we have a nice little tier, little centralisation around mons, and if anything arises as being clearly broken (like I fear m-audino might) that can be handled, but hey, I'm no council member, and I'm not renowned for being right all the time either.

tl;dr: bans and shifts were a good thing for nu, we are a gatr qb and typh suspect away from a fun meta
 
HJAD said:
All of the changes that have happened in the past couple of days with helio/mega lix ban + virizion and friends leaving takes so much stress off on team building you have no idea. Makes the tier much more fun and allows me + rest of community able to use your quirky fun PU mons we always wanted but never could.
Next step to a healthy meta would be a nice n quick gatr ban and a typhlosion suspect then we have a nice little tier, little centralisation around mons, and if anything arises as being clearly broken (like I fear m-audino might) that can be handled, but hey, I'm no council member, and I'm not renowned for being right all the time either.

tl;dr: bans and shifts were a good thing for nu, we are a gatr qb and typh suspect away from a fun meta
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I don't think I was disagreeing with you at all just made a basic statement. Now that the more "centralizing" mons are out of the tier you are right things will become more fun...it may just take some time for newer mons to appear so yes we will probably see a lot of the "old but same" mons everywhere. Pretty much all I meant..


..with that said Mawile, Claydol, and Quag are nice additions to the tier and I'm sure with the great wall of NU gone more things will pop up again
 
Ugh I have no idea why people keep suggesting special Gatr; you're essentially giving up the monster that is physical boosting Gatr for....an inferior special Poliwrath? If you love special Gatr so damn much just use a special Rain Dance LO Swift Swim Poliwrath, which is essentially a Ludicolo with Focus Blast > Giga Drain; it boasts superior sweeping power (boosts its speed and power in a single move) and even more potent surprise factor. I actually feel relieved special Gatr because I know I won't be overpowered immediately when it starts boosting.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Bouffalant: 328-386 (87.7 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (fucking christ that's powerful for a neutral hit with no drawback)
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That said outside of using Poliwrath, bulky Ludicolo, or fucking Lapras, I would think the two sets I posted, which is SubDD and DualDance, would be enough to sway opinions towards quickbans already (kudos to me for promoting ladder cancer~)

Edit: swagilyph You completely misunderstand; I mentioned those as counters.
 
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Punchshroom said:
Ugh I have no idea why people keep suggesting special Gatr; you're essentially giving up the monster that is physical boosting Gatr for....an inferior special Poliwrath? If you love special Gatr so damn much just use a special Rain Dance LO Swift Swim Poliwrath, which is essentially a Ludicolo with Focus Blast > Giga Drain; it boasts superior sweeping power (boosts its speed and power in a single move) and even more potent surprise factor. I actually feel relieved special Gatr because I know I won't be overpowered immediately when it starts boosting.



That said outside of using Poliwrath, Ludicolo, or fucking Lapras, I would think the two sets I posted, which is SubDD and DualDance, would be enough to sway opinions towards quickbans already (kudos to me for promoting ladder cancer~)
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I hardly think Feraligatr is comparable to a fucking Lapras lol
 
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Hi NU, I have an announcement to make.
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This weekend, the NU Council will be doing a vote on Feraligatr, and whether or not it warrants a quickban.

The reason we are handling it like this instead of starting with a standard suspect test is because of the ridiculous amount of power Sheer Force Feraligatr has, it is incredibly difficult for NU to handle. Due to the opinions of the council, we believe that Feraligatr is a large enough threat to warrant potential removal immediately. Note that if Feraligatr is not quickbanned, it will still be a potential suspect in the near future.

Use this thread to influence the council members about Feraligatr, do you think it deserves a quickban? Why or why not?

Info for council members:

You can send your votes, in PM to both myself and Zebraiken starting Saturday, March 7th at 12:01AM est, any votes received before then will not count. Please include why you want to quickban Feraligatr, it doesn't need to be long, just some sort of reason.
 
I strongly prefer regular suspect testing over quickbanning whenever it's appropriate. As much as I hated both Heliolisk and Mega Steelix, especially towards the end, I still preferred the regular suspect test. But Sheer Force Feraligatr is a completely different story. Even without boosting, it has absurd power, but as soon as it boosts, its checks go down to a handful of Pokemon and its counters become none. As a Water-type with good bulk, it's really easy to set up Feraligatr too. Swords Dance shreds slower teams, and Dragon Dance manhandles offense. Even special Agility puts in a massive amount of work because it has Sheer Force Focus Blast to do tons to Water resists. If for some reason Feraligatr didn't get quickbanned, I can't imagine a single person voting for it to stay in NU. The quicker we get a more stable metagame, the quicker we can look into other potentially broken Pokemon or even just fucking relax and enjoy a good metagame. ORAS shook up NU more than any tier shift ever could, and then just as we finally get a more stable metagame, HA Johto starters shook things up even more.

Although I doubt it's necessary, I strongly urge the rest of the council to vote to ban Feraligatr.
 
So the special set of feraligatr is hard walled by Frillish and depending on what the physical runs, (i know ice punch, waterfall, DD/SD and filler.. If its anything other than aqua jet its pretty SOL..
 
About 7 Kidz said:
So the special set of feraligatr is hard walled by Frillish and depending on what the physical runs, (i know ice punch, waterfall, DD/SD and filler.. If its anything other than aqua jet its pretty SOL..
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Crunch is common, and everyone would adapt to an influx of frillish usage by running crunch anyway
 
Sheer Force really pushed it over the edge. It's not just the extra power; the lack of Life Orb recoil helps it as well. Power is the main issue, I know, but the fact that it can now fire off Sheer Force LO boosted Waterfalls, Ice Punches and Crunches without recoil make it harder to wear down for teams that don't have a dedicated Gatr check and make it less susceptible to priority and revenge killers.
 
A standard NU team is basically

Gatr + Gatr Check + Gatr Check + Malamar check + Typhlosion + something that helps Gatr sweep + hazard setter

Sometimes you can cram three of these roles in one mon (Uxie for example can set SR, check Malamar with Signal Beam, Gatr with Thunderbolt/Giga Drain and support Gatr with Healing Wish.
 
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OK enough Council votes are in, and Feraligatr has been banned from NU overwhelmingly by the NU Council. If you're curious what each member voted, I will leave it at the end of the post.

Feraligatr has been banned from NU due to its its ability Sheer Force, which made an already top threat ridiculously powerful, as most of its common moves got the Sheer Force boost. Feraligatr has excellent typing, above average bulk, and many different options that can all destroy different kinds of teams. All of Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, and Agility are viable as set up options, and all work very well against different kinds of teams. Even a special attacker set is viable to lure in traditional checks and counters to physical sets! The amount of power Feraligatr has compared to the rest of NU is ridiculous, as many teams were forced to run multiple subpar Pokemon in hopes of beating Feraligatr.. If you want more information about why Feraligatr was banned, read some of the many great posts in this thread, such as hollywood's post here.


This change should be up on the ladder sometime soon.

Raseri: ban
Zebraiken: ???
Soulgazer: Ban
FLCL: Ban
Punchshroom: Ban
Hollywood: Ban
Montsegur: Ban
Brawlfest: Ban
Dat Blast: Ban
scorpdestroyer: ban
marilli: ban
Rich Homie Cased: ???
 
Finally! Good riddance! That dumb "gatr" has been a thorn in my side for the past couple of years and I cannot say I will not miss it one bit. It did way too much damage, regardless of what it was attacking. I was not surprised to not see anyone vote no ban.
 
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