Metagame NP: Stage 13 - If You Only Knew (Gallade Banned)

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etern

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NU Leader
:gallade: :Gallade: :gallade:
(s/o to Phantomistix for helping writing up the suspect reasoning + choosing the song)

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Gallade is being suspect tested due to its metagame defining, and arguably warping, offensive power, which has a widely noticeable effect on both teambuilding and gameplay in the NU tier. With a fearsome Base 125 Attack stat, offensive synergy via it's new ability ‘Sharpness’ and perfect coverage, Gallade is simply unwallable. Gallade’s premier set consists of the moves Sacred Sword / Psycho Cut / Night Slash / and either Agility or Leaf Blade, as well as the item Scope Lens. With the high base Critical hit chance of these moves, the extra critical chance from Scope Lens, and Gallade's gargantuan power, it becomes an unstoppable machine that can threaten to OHKO anything slower than it, even through defense boosts. Gallade also commonly runs Choice Scarf sets to outspeed common threats that in other cases might be able to revenge kill it, while sacrificing some power, and also enabling it to permanently cripple would be defensive answers with Trick. Life Orb sets are also common, trading the slightly inconsistent lethality of Scope Lens for raw power, at the cost of wearing itself out much quicker than other sets. Assault Vest is another common and effective set which takes advantage of its incredible base 115 SDef stat to make it incredibly difficult to kill without a faster Physical threat, allowing it to harass more offensively inclined teams and act as a blanket check to for special attackers that can also wallbreak. Gallade already has more than enough offensive potential, and is commonly seen running more defensively oriented Tera types, the most notable being Dark and Ghost, with other options like Steel also seeing use. Tera Dark allows it to nullify prankster moves, and more importantly, resist Ghost type attacks and be immune to Psychic type attacks, which greatly helps its matchups against faster or even speed threats like Brambleghast, Chandelure, Indeedee, Munkidori, Typhlosion-Hisui and many more. Tera Dark also has the added bonus of boosting the power of its already strong Knock Offs or Night Slashes. Tera Ghost provides immunity to Normal and Fighting type priority options that might be able to finish it off if previously weakened, while also providing a resistance to Flygon’s First Impression. Tera Ghost also boosts the power of its Shadow Sneak, which is commonly seen on SD sets. It regularly packs coverage for all the common defensive answers, both pre and post Tera, and its STAB Psycho Cut allows it to bypass contact punishers like Talonflame, Vileplume and Bellibolt. This means that Gallade creates a constant cycle of needing to perfect dance around it every turn in order to avoid losing a Pokemon, with almost zero opportunity cost on Gallade's side. As Gallade's wallbreaking prowess is so high, even mispredictions can still soften up teams enough to the point that too much momentum has been lost to come back from. Scream Tail has been brought up as a solid check to counter Gallade, as it can shrug off the majority of it's attacks and consistently heal itself and its team with Wish. However, Scream Tail isn't a very common Pokemon in the tier, and is almost exclusively found on extremely slow and fat Stall teams, as it extremely passive. Gallade can also sometimes struggle to make an impact versus Hyper Offense teams, as they regularly carry physical attackers that can prey on it's lower defense stat, and outspeed it before it has the chance to make a dent. However, Gallade also happens to be a very viable component of Hyper Offense teams, as it can be found running it's Agility set on Psychic Terrain structures, and a myriad of sets on Sticky Web based teams. Overall, it’s presence in the tier is controversial due a lack of defensive counterplay, and the NU council believes that it more than deserving of a public suspect test to let the community determine its fate.​

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  • All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! NU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "NUGSS (nickname)”. For example, NUGSSLICE or NUGSSTORIES.​
  • You have to reach a COIL of 2800 in order to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 7.​
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokémon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.​
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and result in harsh sanctions.​
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.​
  • This also includes throwing games to help other people qualify. Play your games normally and fairly.​
  • The suspect test will last for 14 days, ending on Thursday, August 22nd. 23:59 GMT -4.
GXE = Games Required
71 = 343
72 = 173
73 = 116
74 = 88
75 = 71
76 = 59
77 = 51
78 = 45
79 = 41
80 = 37
81 = 34
82 = 31
83 = 29
84 = 27
85 = 25

 
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I've been meaning to talk about Gallade and my feelings on it. Beforehand, I felt Gallade wasn't a real issue at all, and people we're just being dramatic about how well it really wallbreaks. Recently, however, I've switch sides and am officially on the please ban half. And, this is for multiple reasons, but what really opened my eyes was a post in a place where I had no intention of even building for SV NU.

I checked through the thread cryonics of SS NU in hope of finding an inspirational team and found a post of Stories's talking about Goodra. And, their description of its impact on the tier is exactly how I feel about Gallade. The post is here if you want to read it, and it's good; I recommend you do, but I'll just reword to fit Gallade's impact here.

Gallade has no safe counterplay. Your best bet is to switch with predictions until you can bring out something that threatens it, and even then, you might just get attacked by a critical hit for your troubles. Any Pokemon coming in is OHKOed, if not 2HKOed, by Gallade's attacks. Now, its poor Defense and middling Speed can be taken advantage of by Talonflame, Mienshao, and Flygon, but if I have to use Scream Tail to have a chance versus Gallade defensively—even on balance, then it's definitely broken. Sure, it has utility like Encore, Thunder Wave, and Stealth Rock, but its usage only spiked this month by the time everyone realized Gallade is dumb. Of course, there are other strong wallbreakers that people might compare to Gallade like Chandelure, Heracross, Inteleon, and Staraptor, which have limited switch-ins, but these threats have other features that hold them back like poor coverage, chip damage, bad defenses, and weakness to entry hazards.

As long as it isn't super effective, Gallade can always live one physical hit, and Gallade can live multiple special hits with its respectable Special Defense. It can use this as leverage against special attackers like Inteleon, Munkidori, Meloetta, defensive Sylveon, and Toxicroak (the Nasty Plot variants of course). Also, unlike the other dangerous OHKO breakers (Crabominable, Golurk, and Glastrier, which are typically reserved for Trick Room gimmick teams), Gallade actually has a real Speed tier, helping it outspeed all significant walls and some breakers too like Breloom, Sylveon, Toxtricity, and Basculegion.

On top of that, unlike how the post mentions how Goodra can run a million moves, Gallade only truly requires three with its fourth being quite malleable and allowed to be as niche as it wants it to be, as it'll only be used in situations where neither its STABs nor Night Slash are better. Leaf Blade deletes Water-types planning on switching in to check Gallade for a bit, Shadow Sneak helps pick of weakened faster threats, Agility lets it clean games, Swords Dance ensures it has no switch-ins, Encore makes passive teams have absolutely no chance into Gallade, Aqua Cutter snipes Talonflame, and Poison Jab can hit Scream Tail trying to check Gallade. Every Pokemon on balance can't handle Sharpness-boosted Sacred Sword + Psycho Cut + Night Slash, and with Gallade's extra slot, it can pick and choose which other Pokemon it wants to screw over, similar to how Deoxys-D could run multiple sets to beat different checks.

Gallade's natural Speed, chance to land a critical hit, Sharpness-boosted attacks, perfect coverage, lack of checks, decent natural bulk, and ability to OHKO or 2HKO the entire metagame separates itself from other wallbreakers as broken and banworthy.

And, as for the anti-ban half on the post, it speaks of how Draco Meteor halves its Special Attack and how Goodra has to run the right coverage, which doesn't apply to Gallade because it can't learn Draco Meteor and only relies on its STABs + Night Slash to break through teams anyways.

Its low Defense leaves Gallade open to being revenge killed by the aforementioned physical attackers (Talonflame, Flygon, and Mienshao), and they can even take advantage of it switching out with U-turn to gain momentum. There are also some Pokemon that can take one hit from Gallade and trade damage versus it, regardless of how they may end up afterwards, but if an entire tier's checks to a threat is to trade damage or purely offensive counterplay, it is unhealthy for that tier.

In summation, Gallade has no viable switch-ins, and the only counterplay to it is to predict until you can bring in an offensive threat; however, these predictions themselves can be punished by an unlucky critical hit. Its low Defense encourages KOing it before it KOes you, but even that can be flipped on its head by Agility, Shadow Sneak, and Choice Scarf sets. On top of that, Gallade also enjoys Sticky Web hyper offense teams because of how they slow down these faster threats that may have checked it otherwise. Because of that and what I said earlier (shown in the hidetag below), I truly believe Gallade should be banned from NU and left to reek in NUBL.

Gallade's natural Speed, chance to land a critical hit, Sharpness-boosted attacks, perfect coverage, lack of checks, decent natural bulk, and ability to OHKO or 2HKO the entire metagame separates itself from other wallbreakers as broken and banworthy.

edit: Also, for those of you who can quality check analyses, I'd like it if you were to get around to Gallade before it may be banned.

e2: Gallade analysis out :quagchamppogsire: : https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/pokemon/gallade/
 
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I voted multiples times on council slates to ban Gallade. I still stand by those votes. While I don't think Gallade is unbeatable in any sense of the word--you can pivot around it adequately enough and exploit its relatively average speed and poor physical bulk to revenge kill it--the pressure it exerts game to game is really too much, and the set variety messes up some answers quite badly. Agility in general negates most offensive checks, Scope Lens can just smack certain checks far more effectively, and Swords Dance has as close to zero defensive counterplay as possible. If Agility + Scope Lens wasn't such a bullshit set, it'd be a fine Pokemon to keep around imo.
 
GXE = Games Required
71 = 343
72 = 173
73 = 116
74 = 88
75 = 71
76 = 59
77 = 51
78 = 45
79 = 41
80 = 37
81 = 34
82 = 31
83 = 29
84 = 27
85 = 25
there is no "minimum games required", this is an estimation. you can achieve 2800 COIL in less games than this would lead you to believe. (i reached 2800 with 36 games and 80.1% GXE.)

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this formula tells u exactly how many games you actually need at any given GXE value to reach 2800 COIL

Anyway.

Players have to either not use balance or pretend Gallade doesn't exist because Gallade completely invalidates the playstyle. NU is not short on Fighting resist in any sense but when Gallade virtually gets a STAB boost on Night Slash to threaten Psychic- and Ghost-types and Psycho Cut shreds Vileplume, genuinely nothing is safe. Psycho Cut being non-contact is a bigger deal than it may initially seem, not only avoiding Talonflame's Flame Body but also Rocky Helmet and Houndstone's Fluffy. Gallade's bevy of tools outside of the big 3 "Fighting/Psychic/Dark" is also incredible, with Swords Dance, Agility, Shadow Sneak, and Leaf Blade all serving as viable 4th moves and making the lines of counterplay to Gallade incredibly ambiguous. Gallade's stat spread also lends to a very malleable Pokemon, capable of tanking hits in a pinch with an Assault Vest, having a pseudo-Choice Band via Scope Lens, or OHKOing resists with an actual Choice Band. I love the direction the council is taking by removing HO elements as this will allow balance to shine, but these efforts are null so long as Gallade exists in this tier. I will be voting BAN Gallade.
 
gallade.jpg


While we have had some excellent pro-ban posts, it is interesting to me that we haven't had any do not ban posts in here. I know a room poll isn't the most accurate gauge of community opinion (since anyone who clicks on the room and doesn't really play the tier seriously can vote easily) but these number are still very close. Opinions can't be that one sided with how I've heard people talk about it in the NU room and with these room poll results. With the suspect laddering coming to a close soon and voting starting, if anyone would like to further the discussion now is the time! I'm personally pro-ban but I might have to play devil's advocate a bit for the sake of discussion. The main arguments I've heard are essentially:

1. We have too many pokemon in NUBL. I think this is a pretty weak argument. Personally I would be fine with several more bans (not that we need them but hypothetically) if that is what it takes to have a healthy meta. I think a lot of this sentiment comes from players who started playing the tier more recently and didn't experience a lot of these mons on ladder. Which I understand looking at it and saying "maybe thats a lot of bans" but I think the individual discussions are what are actually important.

2. It doesn't feel broken in practice. This conversation has a bit more to it I think. Gallade's speed tier is usable for sure but it isn't amazing. A lot of offensive teams just don't give it many chances to click. It's defense isn't great and even if it gets an agility off it can be revenged by priority (we did just lose the best 2 priority mons in lycandoggy and lucario but I digress...) A big part of the pro-ban argument is centered around gallade breaking balance / fat and not having reliable defensive counterplay not named scream tail. You can pivot around this mon if you predict correctly (sometimes several times) as well. If we are being honest a lot of times on ladder we aren't seeing optimal plays so that may be a factor?

Again personally I am pro ban, but I would love to hear some differing opinions / discussion! If you don't think gallade is ban worthy, why do you feel that way?
 
I can't imagine arguing that Gallade isn't broken in practice. Frankly, I think it's MORE broken in practice than on paper because when teambuilding, you probably feel a bit safer with varying offensive countermeasures and potentially a bulky Psychic-type like Cresselia, Galarian Slowbro, or Scream Tail to limit it somewhat. When you actually play the games out, this counterplay fails to hold up and be reliable, though. You end up having to play the guessing game of "will the Gallade boost its Speed, murder me with critical hits, or boost its Attack to levels comparable of a nuclear bomb?". and it's probably the hardest Pokemon to pick a lead versus as a result of this dynamic.
 
I can't imagine arguing that Gallade isn't broken in practice. Frankly, I think it's MORE broken in practice than on paper because when teambuilding, you probably feel a bit safer with varying offensive countermeasures and potentially a bulky Psychic-type like Cresselia, Galarian Slowbro, or Scream Tail to limit it somewhat. When you actually play the games out, this counterplay fails to hold up and be reliable, though. You end up having to play the guessing game of "will the Gallade boost its Speed, murder me with critical hits, or boost its Attack to levels comparable of a nuclear bomb?". and it's probably the hardest Pokemon to pick a lead versus as a result of this dynamic.

I did forget to mention agility/boosting in my original post. That definitely complicates things as well! The other side of that coin is while it isn't the best set on gallade, scarf gallade can still ohko a lot of the offensive answers as well. It's not the most common item but it's something you need to (but often can't afford to) scout for on a mon that is very hard to scout against. Mons that should normally be able to hit it hard first like tauros, cinccino, flygon, munkidori, typh-h, inteleon etc. can all be ohkoed by scarf gallade if you don't know what item it has yet.
 
I can't imagine arguing that Gallade isn't broken in practice. Frankly, I think it's MORE broken in practice than on paper
Couldn’t agree more with rabia here. When building, people rely on fat psychics right now to eat a hit or two or load up on offensive counterplay, but frankly, both of those lose to Gallade’s coverage moves and the broken as hell Agility. Not really much else to add to this discussion, but I do want to take a second to highlight the Agility set because it flips Gallade dynamics on its head by doubling its speed, especially against HO. Despite the mediocre bulk, Gallade still has enough to easily set up to sweep in my experience, especially on special attackers. The amount of ladder Raikous that I’ve agilitied up on is absurd…

Ban Gallade before SCL please :)
 
i'm pretty new to playing this metagame so take everything i say with a grain of salt, but just a few games at a decent spot on the ladder makes it pretty clear to me that gallade is certainly not healthy for this meta. there just aren't consistent checks to the multitude of sets that gallade can run, and gallade can easily cleave through any halfway decent defensive core in the tier with just one good prediction.

there is just no reliable defensive counterplay, you have to be in your opponent's head and out predict them every time it hits the field AND know the set or you risk having your team melt to gallade's sharpness-boosted move of choice. you have offensive checks that can never switch in (and can pretty easily just not work depending on the gallade's tera type, set of choice, or a simple switch).

dunno if i'll be able to get recs for this test, being new to the tier and with school starting back up and all, but if i do then i'll definitely be voting ban.
 
:whimsicott: Whimsicott Appreciation Post :whimsicott:

Whimsicott has a strong niche in the current metagame on Offense and Hyper Offense teams for its ability to check top meta threats, stop setup attempts with Prankster Encore, and preserve momentum with U-turn and Memento.

:sv/whimsicott:
Whimsicott @ Rocky Helmet/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- U-turn
- Encore
- Memento/Leech Seed/Stun Spore

Good Matchups
:flygon: :tauros-paldea-aqua::breloom::cinccino::torterra::cresselia:

Some of the most popular and powerful pokemon like Flygon, Aqua Tauros, Breloom, and more can all be shut down by Whimsicott. Moonblast does significant enough damage to threaten them back. Because of this, you can often U-turn for free on the opponent's impending switch and threaten them with the appropriate breaker/sweeper. Leech Seed is an optional tech if you struggle to beta bulky setup with the rest of your team, and if Moonblast's Damage is not significant enough. It also helps keep your next switch in at higher HP.

Bad Matchups
:Incineroar::muk-alola::munkidori: (and other powerful special attackers)

Whimsicott has weak spots, of course. Prankster-immune dark types and fast Poison-Type attackers pose a great threat to our fibrous friend. While U-turn does not outright solve these issues, it does mitigate them significantly, especially with a proper read or midground play. Additionally, a Memento into the special attackers that threaten you can turn into an opportunity for your own powerful setup threats.

Ideal Offensive Partners
:iron-thorns::drednaw::flygon: (and anything else that just needs that turn to set up)

1. Click Memento
2. Use Setup Move
3. ???
4. WIn Game

Additional Techs
:eject-button: :brambleghast: :terrain-extender:

Tailwind is a bit of a meme but many matchups are very underprepared for a +1 Brambleghast or Specs Typhlosion (no Whimsicott on this build though) clicking buttons over and over. Eject Button helps you squeeze one extra turn out of Tailwind by switching out the same turn you set it.

I've also tried using Whimsicott as a manual Grassy Terrain setter because Thwackey sucks. Often, access to Memento or Encore covers for the tempo lost by clicking Grassy Terrain.

Closing Thoughts

If I were the supreme leader of NU and could put Whimsicott wherever I wanted on the VR, I would honestly put it at B/B- just due to how popular some of its best matchups are. I hope others give this mon a shot (and don't use the Choice Specs set :worrywhirl:).
 
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:whimsicott: Whimsicott Appreciation Post :whimsicott:

Whimsicott has a strong niche in the current metagame on Offense and Hyper Offense teams for its ability to check top meta threats, stop setup attempts with Prankster Encore, and preserve momentum with U-turn and Memento.

:sv/whimsicott:
Whimsicott @ Rocky Helmet/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- U-turn
- Encore
- Memento/Leech Seed/Stun Spore

Good Matchups
:flygon: :tauros-paldea-aqua::breloom::cinccino::torterra::cresselia:

Some of the most popular and powerful pokemon like Flygon, Aqua Tauros, Breloom, and more can all be shut down by Whimsicott. Moonblast does significant enough damage to threaten them back. Because of this, you can often U-turn for free on the opponent's impending switch and threaten them with the appropriate breaker/sweeper. Leech Seed is an optional tech if you struggle to beta bulky setup with the rest of your team, and if Moonblast's Damage is not significant enough. It also helps keep your next switch in at higher HP.

Bad Matchups
:Incineroar::muk-alola::munkidori: (and other powerful special attackers)

Whimsicott has weak spots, of course. Prankster-immune dark types and fast Poison-Type attackers pose a great threat to our fibrous friend. While U-turn does not outright solve these issues, it does mitigate them significantly, especially with a proper read or midground play. Additionally, a Memento into the special attackers that threaten you can turn into an opportunity for your own powerful setup threats.

Ideal Offensive Partners
:iron-thorns::drednaw::flygon: (and anything else that just needs that turn to set up)

1. Click Memento
2. Use Setup Move
3. ???
4. WIn Game

Additional Techs
:eject-button: :brambleghast: :terrain-extender:

Tailwind is a bit of a meme but many matchups are very underprepared for a +1 Brambleghast or Specs Typhlosion (no Whimsicott on this build though) clicking buttons over and over. Eject Button helps you squeeze one extra turn out of Tailwind by switching out the same turn you set it.

I've also tried using Whimsicott as a manual Grassy Terrain setter because Thwackey sucks. Often, access to Memento or Encore covers for the tempo lost by clicking Grassy Terrain.

Closing Thoughts

If I were the supreme leader of NU and could put Whimsicott wherever I wanted on the VR, I would honestly put it at B/B- just due to how popular some of its best matchups are. I hope others give this mon a shot (and don't use the Choice Specs set :worrywhirl:).
Can confirm that specs whimsicott is cheeks :worrywhirl: Tried it for fun a while back and it’s damage output was… awful. It needs the def investment too to take on band flygon better. My specs whimsi got crit by a banded flygon EQ on the switch and took like 75% and died… I do think the memento defensive stuff is cool though! Some similarities to ditto when facing opposing offense (as in it helps shut down setup sweepers), but also has plenty of utility in other matchups with memento. Memento is also just a powerful HO tool right now as well. While I haven’t used it on whimsi much I have used a lot of memento chandy!
 
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I didn’t think stall could get any more dead in NU but with the exit of Talon, Umbreon, and Quagsire, we won’t be getting many 100 turn games anytime soon.
 
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