★ np: SS UU Stage 9.1 - King of the Clouds (Thundurus Banned)

[pokemonisfun]

I voted ban to Arctozolt in the council vote posted here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...nutes-community-surveys.3665716/#post-8970908

I generally follow Smogon tiering principles when voting. That means there are three main reasons to ban something.

1) Too strong (broken) - if Kyogre was in UU, it would be too strong
2) Too haxy (uncompetitive) - this is the logic of banning Double Team/Evasion clause
3) Makes the tier significantly worse (unhealthy) - this is the logic of banning fishy styles like at one point in this tier sun

I picked the third reason to ban Arctozolt, it makes the tier significantly worse and makes many match ups fishy. By fishy, I just mean match ups are much riskier but frankly Arctozolt is good enough that there isn't even too much risk. Counterplay to Arctozolt exists but is rare, strange, and generally otherwise poor in the metagame. I refer to Piloswine when speaking of defensive counterplay. I do not consider Umbreon reliable counter as Bolt Beak is a near 2HKO given hail and SR chip. Offensive counterplay is also limited but the teams that Arctozolt are on generally use two ice types (Arctozolt + Ninetailes) so there can be defensive holes. It's not enough for me to vote do not ban though.

I think it is a no brainer to select Arctozolt. I don't think we should even call this a hail suspect at all, Arctozolt's hail abuse is a different order of magnitude to the next best abusers like Weather Ball Thundurus-T/Volcanion and Snow Cloak Mamoswine. Arctozolt is clearly the broken element so Arctozolt should be banned. Again, I follow Smogon tiering principles which says to do simple bans. In my view, a simple ban is a non complex ban. A complex ban is a non-Pokemon ban (banning abilities, making conditions, banning items, etc).

I apologize for the off the cuff nature of this post. This is not a thorough analysis of why Arctozolt should or should not be banned nor does it represent anyone's view except my own. I thought to post these rough thoughts as I believe we would be remiss to have a tiering decision without any discussion in our official UU NP thread.

 

[Lily]

Adding onto the fact that Thundurus was banned (in case anyone hadn't seen, uh... bye Thundy?)

following a unanimous council vote, Arctozolt is also banned from UU.

Some people who are out of the loop might be wondering, why Arctozolt?

Hail has picked up a lot recently, dominating tournaments with an absurd winrate in large part due to the freezing dino. Everyone knows how good of a combination BoltBeam is, but it's particularly strong in UU right now - our only Pokemon that resist both are Mamoswine and Rotom-H. Mamoswine takes Life Orb recoil and isn't particularly bulky while also being popped by the occasional Low Kick, while Rotom-H admittedly has a fairly strong Hail matchup but is not a great Bolt Beak switchin due to its massive power and doesn't stick around for too long.

Arctozolt is also extremely difficult to play around offensively - like a lot of our offensive threats it's limited by Accelerock, and unlike a lot of our offensive threats that's kinda where the list ends. Things like Choice Scarf Krookodile and Mienshao are so much less common than before, while other Scarfers like Jirachi don't really do a whole lot to it anyway, so it's difficult to play around for both ends of the spectrum.

As I'm writing this pif has posted above me to broach the issue more, so I'll leave it here and encourage you to read his post if you want more thoughts. Tagging Marty or Kris to implement this if you don't mind, please and thank you~

 

[5camp]

So semi-serious question: Instead of banning Arctozolt and Dracozolt, why not instead ban the broken aspect of the two mons, aka Bolt Beak. To me it fits the criteria of something that is inherently broken. It's an effective 170 base power move. It's more powerful than most Z moves and Max moves and isn't a one time use. It makes mediocre Pokemon busted by UU standards. Banning Bolt Beak would give sand and hail some very cool and unique weather abusers by freeing Dracozolt and Arctozolt which would be an overall positive influence on the meta, not just in UU but in lower tiers too.

Of course the counter to this is fishious rend, which is stuck on a PU Arctovish, an arguably better move than Bolt Beak, but at the same time Arctozolt was ready to drop to ZU until everyone suddenly discovered it in every single tier simultaneously and doesn't necessarily mean the moves themselves aren't stupid.

 

[pokemonisfun]

So semi-serious question: Instead of banning Arctozolt and Dracozolt, why not instead ban the broken aspect of the two mons, aka Bolt Beak. To me it fits the criteria of something that is inherently broken. It's an effective 170 base power move. It's more powerful than most Z moves and Max moves and isn't a one time use. It makes mediocre Pokemon busted by UU standards. Banning Bolt Beak would give sand and hail some very cool and unique weather abusers by freeing Dracozolt and Arctozolt which would be an overall positive influence on the meta, not just in UU but in lower tiers too.

Of course the counter to this is fishious rend, which is stuck on a PU Arctovish, an arguably better move than Bolt Beak, but at the same time Arctozolt was ready to drop to ZU until everyone suddenly discovered it in every single tier simultaneously and doesn't necessarily mean the moves themselves aren't stupid.

My immediate reaction flows like this:

1) Your point about diversity in UU is well taken but in my view we cover this already in Smogon’s tiering philosophy - the side changing the status quo must be the one making justifications, meeting the burden of proof. Changing the status quo in this case and most cases is doing the ban. That, said, I agree diversity is a good thing so all else equal I’d pick the option leading to greater diversity
2) I do not take any tier into consideration in these decisions except UU, they have their own tiering councils to make decisions and can ask to break transitivity on their own
3) From 1) and 2), if Bolt Beak can be equally justified as Arctozolt as broken/unhealthy then I’d be open to banning Bolt Beak
4) Bolt Beak is a complex ban, which in my view is a non Pokemon ban but this isn’t publicly defined yet.
5) Complex bans are equally good as regular ban only if we can argue the complex element (Bolt Beak) is the broken part, which means you need it on more than one Pokemon: in this case, Arctozolt and Dracozolt as you point out
6) It is not clear to me that Bolt Beak can be isolated as the commonality that makes Arctozolt/Dracozolt broken/unhealthy. Most importantly, both require speed boosting abilities and STAB to use Bolt Beak effectively and be broken/unhealthy
7) In other words, while it’s that both require Bolt Beak to be broken, they also both require Electric typing and a speed boosting ability. Therefore we shouldn’t isolate Bolt Beak

I think you can make a strong argument against this. That would be: the Electric typing is a different type of complex element than a move, because we’ve banned moves before but can hardly modify a typing. The ability element isn’t a common broken factor because both have different abilities that require different support.


One other process point: I do not believe tiering councils should have independent ability to conduct a complex ban and would generally vote against a complex ban unless Policy Review approves first.

Overall, on its merits, I think your argument is sound or at least should be considered more thoughtfully than this post, but I warn you it takes time and effort to go through these suggestions when involving policy review.

 

[5camp]

My immediate reaction flows like this:

1) Your point about diversity in UU is well taken but in my view we cover this already in Smogon’s tiering philosophy - the side changing the status quo must be the one making justifications, meeting the burden of proof. Changing the status quo in this case and most cases is doing the ban. That, said, I agree diversity is a good thing so all else equal I’d pick the option leading to greater diversity
2) I do not take any tier into consideration in these decisions except UU, they have their own tiering councils to make decisions and can ask to break transitivity on their own
3) From 1) and 2), if Bolt Beak can be equally justified as Arctozolt as broken/unhealthy then I’d be open to banning Bolt Beak
4) Bolt Beak is a complex ban, which in my view is a non Pokemon ban but this isn’t publicly defined yet.
5) Complex bans are equally good as regular ban only if we can argue the complex element (Bolt Beak) is the broken part, which means you need it on more than one Pokemon: in this case, Arctozolt and Dracozolt as you point out
6) It is not clear to me that Bolt Beak can be isolated as the commonality that makes Arctozolt/Dracozolt broken/unhealthy. Most importantly, both require speed boosting abilities and STAB to use Bolt Beak effectively and be broken/unhealthy
7) In other words, while it’s that both require Bolt Beak to be broken, they also both require Electric typing and a speed boosting ability. Therefore we shouldn’t isolate Bolt Beak

I think you can make a strong argument against this. That would be: the Electric typing is a different type of complex element than a move, because we’ve banned moves before but can hardly modify a typing. The ability element isn’t a common broken factor because both have different abilities that require different support.


One other process point: I do not believe tiering councils should have independent ability to conduct a complex ban and would generally vote against a complex ban unless Policy Review approves first.

Overall, on its merits, I think your argument is sound or at least should be considered more thoughtfully than this post, but I warn you it takes time and effort to go through these suggestions when involving policy review.

All fair points. OK, since you've put me up to it, I'll try to write something a bit more formal.

I propose UU bans Bolt Beak. Bolt Beak makes every Pokemon who has access to the move too powerful for UU due to the move's immense power and relatively drawback-free use. This is suggested over banning each individual user of Bolt Beak as it captures every overpowered element of the banned users with a relatively simple single ban, allowing them back into the tier and increasing the number of potentially viable strategies within the tier.

To the best of my knowledge, this would be only the second time a move has been banned in Smogon. The other being baton pass, a wholly unique move and not really comparable, so banning Bolt Beak would be the first time a move is banned on its pure power alone. Since I imagine there would be worries for the precedent it would set, it would be helpful to outline exactly what criteria needs to be passed for a move to be banned that Bolt Beak passes where no other move in the past has done so.

1) Multiple Pokemon must have access to the move.
(Urshifu without Wicked Blow would be fine for OU but as it is the only user of the move, a single ban of the Pokemon is always preferable)

2) Every user of the move must be too powerful and banned from the tier.
(Draco Meteor makes Latios too powerful for UU, but Drampa is fine for the tier, so you would never ban Draco Meteor)

3) Every user of the move must be re-allowed into the tier if the move is unbanned.
(Victini would probably be fine in UU without V-Create, but banning the move would not suddenly make Rayquaza fine in UU)

 

[Monky25]

All fair points. OK, since you've put me up to it, I'll try to write something a bit more formal.

I propose UU bans Bolt Beak. Bolt Beak makes every Pokemon who has access to the move too powerful for UU due to the move's immense power and relatively drawback-free use. This is suggested over banning each individual user of Bolt Beak as it captures every overpowered element of the banned users with a relatively simple single ban, allowing them back into the tier and increasing the number of potentially viable strategies within the tier.

To the best of my knowledge, this would be only the second time a move has been banned in Smogon. The other being baton pass, a wholly unique move and not really comparable, so banning Bolt Beak would be the first time a move is banned on its pure power alone. Since I imagine there would be worries for the precedent it would set, it would be helpful to outline exactly what criteria needs to be passed for a move to be banned that Bolt Beak passes where no other move in the past has done so.

1) Multiple Pokemon must have access to the move.
(Urshifu without Wicked Blow would be fine for OU but as it is the only user of the move, a single ban of the Pokemon is always preferable)

2) Every user of the move must be too powerful and banned from the tier.
(Draco Meteor makes Latios too powerful for UU, but Drampa is fine for the tier, so you would never ban Draco Meteor)

3) Every user of the move must be re-allowed into the tier if the move is unbanned.
(Victini would probably be fine in UU without V-Create, but banning the move would not suddenly make Rayquaza fine in UU)

Not to be that guy or anything but I disagree with this, and somebody would've made a post similar to mine anyway. While it is true without Bolt Beak the fossils would be fine, I would not say Bolt Beak is the sole cause of these Pokemon being banned. One big part of why the Pokemon themselves are broken is due to their ability and STAB coverage. They have the ability to double their speed in sand or hail, allowing them to move first and nail faster threats with Bolt Beak. Its why we saw Arctozolt in PU before DLC 2, bolt Beak is cool and all but if you are slow as shit you cant abuse it. Bolt Beak is piss weak if you are slower. The other reason why the Zolts are OP is because of their movepool and typing. Dracozolt has a powerful Dragon stab and good coverage in fire blast to handle grass-types that would pivot into Bolt Beak, its why even without Sand Rush it was pretty busted. Arctozolt has the best STAB combo in the entire game, and being in hail gives it the ability to fire off strong and 100% accurate blizzards with no problem. It also can get around its checks with substitute and freeze dry. While it would be cool to have these Pokemon usable again, a complex ban on Bolt Beak wouldn't work because its not solely why the zolt's are broken, its the fact that they have an ability to abuse the sheer power of Bolt Beak by moving first in weather as well as great coverage to bypass their checks, making them both broken in UU. Sure Arctozolt without Bolt Beak would be fine, but so would Arctozolt without slush rush to go fast. Its the combination of these traits that make them broken, not just one move.

 

[5camp]

Not to be that guy or anything but I disagree with this, and somebody would've made a post similar to mine anyway. While it is true without Bolt Beak the fossils would be fine, I would not say Bolt Beak is the sole cause of these Pokemon being banned. One big part of why the Pokemon themselves are broken is due to their ability and STAB coverage. They have the ability to double their speed in sand or hail, allowing them to move first and nail faster threats with Bolt Beak. Its why we saw Arctozolt in PU before DLC 2, bolt Beak is cool and all but if you are slow as shit you cant abuse it. Bolt Beak is piss weak if you are slower. The other reason why the Zolts are OP is because of their movepool and typing. Dracozolt has a powerful Dragon stab and good coverage in fire blast to handle grass-types that would pivot into Bolt Beak, its why even without Sand Rush it was pretty busted. Arctozolt has the best STAB combo in the entire game, and being in hail gives it the ability to fire off strong and 100% accurate blizzards with no problem. It also can get around its checks with substitute and freeze dry. While it would be cool to have these Pokemon usable again, a complex ban on Bolt Beak wouldn't work because its not solely why the zolt's are broken, its the fact that they have an ability to abuse the sheer power of Bolt Beak by moving first in weather as well as great coverage to bypass their checks, making them both broken in UU. Sure Arctozolt without Bolt Beak would be fine, but so would Arctozolt without slush rush to go fast. Its the combination of these traits that make them broken, not just one move.

Wouldn't it be better to look at it through the lens of why Light Clay was banned? Yeah there were users of dual screens who would have been fine in the tier with light clay allowed, but you would have had to ban too many users or abusers of long lasting dual screens to eventually reach that happy medium so it was decided to just ban light clay. For a move, you could repeatedly ban every user of the move, or just ban the move itself. Yes it is not just Bolt Beak that helps the Zolts be overpowered. It was also not just dual screens that made Galarian Moltres into a terrifying setup sweeper. But they both are what contribute heavily to pushing them over the edge.

 

[KM]

All fair points. OK, since you've put me up to it, I'll try to write something a bit more formal.

I propose UU bans Bolt Beak. Bolt Beak makes every Pokemon who has access to the move too powerful for UU due to the move's immense power and relatively drawback-free use. This is suggested over banning each individual user of Bolt Beak as it captures every overpowered element of the banned users with a relatively simple single ban, allowing them back into the tier and increasing the number of potentially viable strategies within the tier.

To the best of my knowledge, this would be only the second time a move has been banned in Smogon. The other being baton pass, a wholly unique move and not really comparable, so banning Bolt Beak would be the first time a move is banned on its pure power alone. Since I imagine there would be worries for the precedent it would set, it would be helpful to outline exactly what criteria needs to be passed for a move to be banned that Bolt Beak passes where no other move in the past has done so.

1) Multiple Pokemon must have access to the move.
(Urshifu without Wicked Blow would be fine for OU but as it is the only user of the move, a single ban of the Pokemon is always preferable)

2) Every user of the move must be too powerful and banned from the tier.
(Draco Meteor makes Latios too powerful for UU, but Drampa is fine for the tier, so you would never ban Draco Meteor)

3) Every user of the move must be re-allowed into the tier if the move is unbanned.
(Victini would probably be fine in UU without V-Create, but banning the move would not suddenly make Rayquaza fine in UU)

the main problem with a complex ban (e.g. banning a move) is that it's not really user-friendly or displayable in the teambuilder at all. for someone new to the tier (or new to smogon / battling as a whole), it's very likely that they'd go through the effort of building an entire team around bolt beak only to find out upon clicking the button that the move was banned -- even with some sort of extra coding to provide a link explaining the decision or something, it's inconvenient, would lead to lots of confusion and extra work, and would take a lot of effort on the part of people who moderate the server to continuously explain it.

in a very real sense, the precedent that a move ban would set would probably extend beyond the zolts. there'd likely be calls to do the same for mons like zapdos-g or victini, creating an even more complicated situation that could potentially result in multiple pokemon in the tier being unable to run their signature moves, and confusing people new to the tier or game.

while the same could be said for an item ban, these item bans have a long precedent and are a part of the game regardless. there are multiple items currently banned in different tiers, and banning light clay doesn't fundamentally change tiering or constitute a complex ban in the way that banning bolt beak would.

 

[theotherguytm]

Wouldn't it be better to look at it through the lens of why Light Clay was banned? Yeah there were users of dual screens who would have been fine in the tier with light clay allowed, but you would have had to ban too many users or abusers of long lasting dual screens to eventually reach that happy medium so it was decided to just ban light clay. For a move, you could repeatedly ban every user of the move, or just ban the move itself. Yes it is not just Bolt Beak that helps the Zolts be overpowered. It was also not just dual screens that made Galarian Moltres into a terrifying setup sweeper. But they both are what contribute heavily to pushing them over the edge.

I'm not a UU player, but I think I can explain why this isn't on the table.

Compress

Let's quickly go over why Dracozolt was banned in early UU Beta and not touched since:

• Powerful primary STAB attack in Bolt Beak allows it to break non-walls on the switch with ease.
• Passable speed lets it outrun most walls so Bolt Beak is boosted in 1v1s.
• Strong coverage in Earthquake, Fire Fang and Outrage that punishes Bolt Beak switch-ins.
• Strong Ability in Hustle that further amplifies the power of its moves, making them unbearably powerful.
• Ability to even go mixed with Draco Meteor and Fire Blast.

So what is the broken element here? Bolt Beak? No, since at the time Arctozolt did not have Slush Rush, so there was a non-broken user of the move. Hustle? No, Flapple gets Hustle and isn't broken. Clearly the problem is Hustle+Bolt Beak, which is unique to Dracozolt, so Dracozolt is banned.

Now let's have a look at the situation when Arctozolt got Slush Rush:

• Powerful primary STAB attack in Bolt Beak allows it to break non-walls on the switch with ease.
• Great speed under Hail lets it outrun most walls so Bolt Beak is boosted in 1v1s.
• Strong coverage in Icicle Crash, Freeze-Dry and Stomping Tantrum that punishes Bolt Beak switch-ins.
• Strong Ability in Slush Rush that enables Bolt Beak as mentioned above and allows it to potentially sweep.
• Ability to even go mixed with Blizzard and Freeze Dry.

Yes, the situation is very similar in paper. However, let's analyse the situation as above. Is Bolt Beak the problematic element? No, since before getting Slush Rush, Arctozolt was not broken. Is Slush Rush the broken element then? No, since Alolan Sandslash gets the ability and isn't broken. We therefore conclude that the problem is Slush Rush+Bolt Beak, which is unique to Arctozolt. Arctozolt is therefore banned.

While yes, you can argue that every user of the move is currently broken, there are a few problems with this:

1. Every user of Dragon Ascent is broken. Dragon Ascent is an extremely strong move, but also clearly not the only reason Rayquaza is Uber. By a similar line of logic, we can see Bolt Beak is not the only reason the Zolts are banned, so the bans are justified.
2. We have no data considering the performance of Bolt Beak on Pokemon without STAB on the move in standard tiers. Can you say with confidence that without the STAB boost Bolt Beak is broken? Similarly, we can consider Pokemon without the Zolts' excellent coverage. Would a Bolt Beak Pokemon that couldn't threaten Ground types, for instance, be broken? We have no way of knowing. By contrast, when considering other non-Pokemon bans in standard tiers, we can be pretty confident that Shadow Tag, Baton Pass and (previously in UU) Drizzle were broken on every Pokemon that obtained them, would directly cause their bans, and probably would cause most other Pokemon to be broken with them too.
3. Light Clay was banned because the alternatives were banning 4+ different sweepers and/or 3+ screens setters, probably without solving the core issue. Smogon tiers Pokemon, not items, moves or Abilities, and non-Pokemon bans are conventionally a last resort when it is clear Pokemon bans cannot solve the problem. Here two Pokemon have been banned for different reasons, who also happen to share one signature move in Bolt Beak. Any potential problem with Bolt Beak has hence been solved.
4. While it is quite probable Arctozolt without Bolt Beak would be unviable, as it requires Hail to function, Dracozolt is much less clear. It still has an over 100 BP STAB in Outrage and Hustle to boost it with, plus its usual strong coverage, and a passable defensive typing too. None of UU's Fairies or Steels like taking Wild Charges or Earthquakes from Dracozolt (heck, even borrowing from RU we're out of options) bar Defensive Bulu (lol). Take a look at the below set and see if you can determine beyond reasonable doubt it would not be broken. While it is quite possible it might not be broken, we cannot say for sure, so we have no cause to implement a non-Pokemon ban to preserve what may turn out to be a broken Pokemon anyway.

Dracozolt @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Wild Charge
- Dragon Claw/Aerial Ace/Facade/Fire Fang
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 249-294 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(For comparison: 252+ Atk Choice Band Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and Mence doesn't get Wild Charge to bop 'Steela either.)

Hope this all makes sense!

 

[Tidal]

i was gonna make it "Roses" but i've been playing too much Deltarune

Roserade and Spikes

Between the Thundurus suspect, the Arctozolt ban and the SCL metagame, one particular Pokemon has been making its rise in the Tier. Originally falling all the way down into depths of PU, Roserade has made its return up to RU and has been surging in Underused usage of the past few weeks. Let's take a closer look at it!



Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Spikes
- Sleep Powder / Synthesis

Roserade's became a potent presence within the tier recently thanks to its ability to provide excellent hazard support in Spikes while threatening common switch ins like Salamence, Jirachi and Aegislash with Sleep Powder, making it much more difficult to switch into. Its STAB moves in Giga Drain, Leaf Storm and Sludge Bomb paired with its great base 125 SpAtk cover a wide range of the metagame like Krookodile, Primarina, Tangrowth and many more. Roserade seperates itself from the other Grass-types in the tier like Amoonguss and Tangrowth, trading their defensive profile for its better offensive presence. At face value, this may seem like a negative trade off as Grass-types provide a number of important resistances, and Roserade's lack of Defense may turn people away at first, but this should speak volumes on how crucial spikes support is in our metagame. In a tier filled with plenty of Regenerator Pokemon, reducing the amount of healing they gain upon switch makes disposing of them far easier.

Spikes in itself are a massive factor as to why Roserade has spiked in usage. Hazard stacking is an incredible effective tactic, forcing Pokemon to take massive amounts of chip on the switch. Even with Heavy Duty Boots joining the fray in SS, hazard chip is invaluable damage that is greatly appreciate by almost every team. This makes other hazard setters like Krookodile and Kommo-o excellent partners, working with Roserade to keep the hazards up and use Knock Off to remove Heavy Duty Boots. Roserade, in return, is able to handle the likes of Primarina and Tangrowth for Kommo-o, letting it have a much easier time checking opposing Pokemon and letting its wallbreaking potential shine.

Roserade's ability to set up Spikes makes it a solid partner for wallbreakers like Lycanroc, Salamence, Azelf and Keldeo, pressuring common defensives staples in Aegislash, Tangrowth, Amoonguss and Primarina. Azelf can be an amazing partner in particular, as Roserade takes advantage of a lot of its passive switch-ins like Umbreon and Krookodile. This gives a lot of offensive Pokemon much more breathing room and allows them to make quick work of teams that come unprepared, and with Defog not being a necessity in the tier it can be relatively easy to find yourself under that pressure. Even with our defoggers, Rotom-W and can't switch in safely and Salamence and Rotom-H dislike getting Poisoned.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now for some discussions questions!

What Pokemon have you been using a lot of recently?
What's your favourite set to run? Maybe something unconventional or specific?
Which Pokemon are you most excited for when October rolls around?

thats all for now, have a good rest of your day/night!

​

 

[Morkal]

God doesn't love me enough to let me die