Sorry for the meme but I felt like I had to post this... Highly interesting arguments you are pointing out and I am enjoying all the discussion. I hope at least I can give you some laugh break before you unsheathe your tongue swords (in reality, finger swords though).
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★ np: SS UU Stage 8.2 - Cherry (Latias BANNED)
- Thread starter kumiko
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Sorry for the meme but I felt like I had to post this... Highly interesting arguments you are pointing out and I am enjoying all the discussion. I hope at least I can give you some laugh break before you unsheathe your tongue swords (in reality, finger swords though).
its a normal shift, shift was every month before but its back to 3 months like it was used to be so "normal shift" doesnt have much sense since theres no expections. always cool to analyze usage but saying : this drops this rise sounds weird.
i dont see whats wrong with that. it was obviously a meme but still. smogon doesnt want to ban stuff, since smogon doesnt have a word on it. council and community ban stuff. the banning policy isnt banning one of the best mon and when its done banning again, but banning mons so we have a healthy tier. atm i think the tier is horseshit and i dont see whats wrong with discussing potential bans which can make the tier better : i dont see the tier fixing itself with time or with only one ban, therefore we need several suspects, which take time but which is necessary.
- also what is with smogon always wanting to ban stuff. I get mantis made that visual as a joke but it honestly bugs me to think that can be a possibility. Everyone is asking for more and more sorts of bans when all it will do is just send another one over the edge. Just because its very good like zera or victini doesn't mean its broken. Honestly re ask yourselves whether this is truly banworthy and how will the meta get better. does zera really "restrict teambuilding" by having me run amoongus or tangrowth, Pokémon that just so happens to beat other top threats like bulu, azumarill, and terrakion. Idk its too much, just needed to rant about it.
Not gonna try to go in another back and forth, but there was one thing said that I really disagree with and want to point out:
I don't believe this is actually true - it is definitely not "just as good" vs. offense. Perhaps it's not bad, but "just as good" is stretching it. HO teams don't really care much about Latias, and they are certainly not constrained by it or forced to adjust their building much due to it. A scarf Latias can help stop boosters yes, and Latias is certainly not useless against offense. But the substantial majority of all pro-ban arguments as to why it is too strong apply to balance teams. You can use sub-optimal Latias sets to help with stall/HO more (e.g. Scarf is a suboptimal Latias set, Flame Orb is a suboptimatl Latias set), but that goes back to my previous point of trying to argue for suboptimal sets in favor of ban. I don't think it works that well.
Whether or not the fact that Latias constrains the tier enough for balance teams to warrant a ban - I already discussed that plenty so not worth discussing again. But the whole idea of the tier moving from one playstyle to another playstyle, and how enjoyable that may be, would be a personal preference to many.
But, as Ramolost said, it's a community decision. So as much as I don't want to ban Latias, and as much as I think the tier is fine ATM, if the rest of the community does not feel the same way and wants to ban things then that's just the way it is. At the very least, it should be done with the majority of the tier involved in the discussion and decisionmaking on it. I would strongly caution against a ban-culture from re-emerging though after this suspect - my post was a meme yes, but if we get too carried away the meme will become a reality.
I don't believe this is actually true - it is definitely not "just as good" vs. offense. Perhaps it's not bad, but "just as good" is stretching it. HO teams don't really care much about Latias, and they are certainly not constrained by it or forced to adjust their building much due to it. A scarf Latias can help stop boosters yes, and Latias is certainly not useless against offense. But the substantial majority of all pro-ban arguments as to why it is too strong apply to balance teams. You can use sub-optimal Latias sets to help with stall/HO more (e.g. Scarf is a suboptimal Latias set, Flame Orb is a suboptimatl Latias set), but that goes back to my previous point of trying to argue for suboptimal sets in favor of ban. I don't think it works that well.
Whether or not the fact that Latias constrains the tier enough for balance teams to warrant a ban - I already discussed that plenty so not worth discussing again. But the whole idea of the tier moving from one playstyle to another playstyle, and how enjoyable that may be, would be a personal preference to many.
But, as Ramolost said, it's a community decision. So as much as I don't want to ban Latias, and as much as I think the tier is fine ATM, if the rest of the community does not feel the same way and wants to ban things then that's just the way it is. At the very least, it should be done with the majority of the tier involved in the discussion and decisionmaking on it. I would strongly caution against a ban-culture from re-emerging though after this suspect - my post was a meme yes, but if we get too carried away the meme will become a reality.
i don't think anything you're saying is particularly wrong but i want to clarify a few of my points because I might have misstated them earlier!
i'm not saying i don't think people are digging deep enough for checks, i'm saying that in past instances of broken mons we've seen nu / pu / nfe pokemon suddenly skyrocket in usage because they happen to provide a niche counter -- even if latias doesn't have true counters in these tiers, it's just not something I've seen much of. totally possible that's my own nearsightedness, and thanks to lilburr for sharing a few examples of it, but I still don't think it's being done to the extent we've seen in the past. maybe a more succinct or accurate position would be this -- there's been some limited experimentation with niche checks and counters for latias from lower tiers, but ultimately what people gain by countering it a little better than they could with uu threats they lose by having to run a shitmon. i think we're actually both in agreement on that -- the point i'm making is that in the past, despite it making your team actively worse people would still regularly resort to using terrible pokemon to counter/check broken threats.
my point with hydra was actually specifically about dark pulse -- should have specified, but during the suspect one of the things we talked about was the ability for LO and specs variants to often click dark pulse with reckless abandon and chunk anything. regardless, i think the overall point still stands. just because latias may not have many 100% switchins assuming correct prediction, it doesn't mean it doesn't have countless switchins that punish incorrect predictions.
echoing BigFatMantis, my experience has also been that HO doesn't have much of a problem with Latias. again, might be colored by my own biases, but i don't think it's too controversial to say that HO is good against a pokemon weak to u-turn that drains its own stats and has minimal defensive type utility.
i think the idea that "balance is an indicator of the health of a tier" is more of a personal opinion than it is a given fact. i can think of many great phases in past gens where offense, hyper offense, or bulky offense were the most common and meta-defining playstyles -- i don't think it was a marker of an unhealthy tier that balance wasn't as good at those times.
lastly, i want to clarify my comments about usage. you're totally right -- something being broken doesn't necessitate it being #1, especially if it's specific to a playstyle or archetype, niche in usage, or has competition from similarly viable mons of the same type. but latias doesn't fall into those categories, and a lot of the very arguments being used in this thread pro-ban are predicated on the fact that latias is easily splashable on any team, must be accounted for all the time when teambuilding, has several viable threats that all fill different niches in the metagame, etc, etc. i'm not saying that a pokemon needs to be #1 usage to be broken, what I am saying is that if a pokemon as general, versatile, and ubiquitous as latias were truly as broken as claims have made it out to be, I'd expect to see higher usage. i don't think usage proves its innocence, it just calls into question for me the truth of some of the above claims!
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thanks for pointing this out. When I meant normal shift I meant how it was done throughout this generation so far, so it was my bad on the wording part. I still think that using these usage stats is a good way to determine the future of the metagame and how we should tier in the coming months. Also, I may have misstated when I said "smogon" and I guess meant by how the community in the tiers tend to have a ban happy mentality. My saying is just we should be more careful in determining what should get a suspect test in the future because being good or versatile doesn't warrant a test. Its fine to discuss potential bans, especially since we are likely to ban at least one more thing after latias, but I still advise that we stay away from a ban culture and only do it when there is clear consensus that something is unhealthy for the tier. To sum it up I'm just advising that we be careful with what we want to test and give it clear thoughts on the possible effects it could have on the metagame.
This last bit is unrelated and kinda speculation but I would like to say that even if latias does get banned, I can still envision a future where latias can be UU. We already have some defensive checks to it, albeit a bit more would be nice, and looking to changes in OU we can possibly get things like mandibuzz, tyranitar, and hydreigon in the future, the former 2 act as great defensive checks while the latter can revenge kill with scarf. There's also other mons that can come back like AV alolan muk, scarf infernape, and empoleon that can also help check latias. This is 100% theorymonning but its something I want to say and hopefully when the remaining pokemon do return to the game we can at least consider giving latias another shot in UU should it get banned.
The real question is, since we are suspecting Latias, what are we going to do with its big blue brother?
Watch Latias drop to RU while it is being suspected because Latios is here lmao. If that happens, I think it is the first time that a Pokemon dropped to a lower tier while it is being suspected :P
Watch Latias drop to RU while it is being suspected because Latios is here lmao. If that happens, I think it is the first time that a Pokemon dropped to a lower tier while it is being suspected :P
Latias's suspect test ends later today, Latios will not be dropping to UU for at least another month, so this won't be happening! Regarding Latios, it'll most likely be quickbanned but we can't say for sure what will happen until it happens. Regardless, these types of posts are better suited for the Simple Questions & Simple Answers thread, please use that in future if your post would better fit there!
I believe that you are missing a mon here. A mon that is so broken it literally breaks the smogon TIERING POLICY FRAMEWORK. Before I tell you guys what this busted ass mon is I want to give a s/o to hs for pulling the wool over my eyes and revealing to me the truth of how broken this pokemon is. Now imagine a pokemon that has a chance to move first 44% (almost HALF) of the time and has the same spa as dragapult, regieleki, groudon, and giratina and the same hp as quagsire, clefable, and slowbro. On top of that imagine a move pool that can hit almost every mon in the uu tier and below. Pretty broken right? If you said yes let me tell you this is not a made up mon, this is a real mon lurking right below us in ru. This mon is Slowbro-Galar. Now if you haven't heard of Slowbro-Galar either your new to mons or have been living under a rock. Like I said before this mon is so broken it literally breaks the tiering policy framework I don't see any other mon we banned doing that!!! Moving first without giving a flying fuck about its opp speed is so broken words cannot describe it. If you think it has answers think again cuz this things movepool is pure ectasy. Not only does it have Nasty plot but it has access to many moves such as flamethrower/fire blast, grass knot, many poison and psychic type moves and those are just the best moves you can choose from however on top of that for some insane reason you don't feel like choosing those moves or are scared of incineroar fear not it also has access to focus blast, hydropump, and scald. By now you must be thinking holy shit its broken as fuck replace it for terrak for the march ban. The madness doesn't stop there it is also powerful as fuck all of our defensive options crumble before this god like pokemon.
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Shell Side Arm vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 390-462 (96.5 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Amoonguss: 618-728 (143 - 168.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 314-370 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Palossand: 339-400 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 316-373 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Shell Side Arm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Salamence: 321-378 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Amoonguss: 618-728 (143 - 168.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 314-370 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Palossand: 339-400 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 316-373 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Slowbro-Galar Shell Side Arm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Salamence: 321-378 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Final thoughts on the second post of me gassing up qcqd (more posts to come). I believe this thing has amazing coverage, spa and a broken ability and this pokemon needs to be suspected next! Even though you may try to revenge it it will always move first so you never can (bar prio). Thanks for reading and I hope you support the qcqd ban for March 2021.
Which mon is getting suspected next?
It's been three days since Latias was banned please be patient lmao
Because I don't want this to be a one-liner, I'm going to talk a bit about a Pokémon that got a lot better with Latias's ban.
Kommo-o was already fairly solid in the Latias meta, but suffered from being completely and totally checked by Latias. Now that Latias is gone, though, Kommo-o now has a bit more freedom to run amok. This Pokémon has more sets than Tom Brady has Super Bowl rings. fuck Tom Brady btw There are defensive Stealth Rock + Body Press sets, physically offensive Swords Dance/Dragon Dance/Belly Drum sets, specially offensive Clangorous Soul + Throat Spray sets, et cetera, et cetera. We might not have even scraped the bottom of the barrel when it comes to Kommo-o sets. Its movepool and stat spread makes it that versatile.
This huge set variety is going to make Kommo-o a very difficult Pokémon to prepare for in the teambuilder. Depending on the set it has, it could completely counter entire teams that built for the wrong set. I don't think Kommo-o is broken because it still has counters and checks (defensive sets and special sets without Flash Cannon get completely walled by Hatterene, Togekiss, and Azumarril, and none of its current sets can touch Jirachi). But I do think it's going to join Zeraora and Scizor as one of the best mons in the metagame.
I'm interested to hear what you guys think about Kommo-o and its future in the SS UU metagame.
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Victini honestly is the first one to come to mind for a suspect
I believe that simple questions like this should go into the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread, and not here, as this is generally reserved for discussion and bad memes.
But if you feel strongly about Victini (or anything else) related to a future suspect, be sure to fill out the newly posted UU Community Survey which has Victini as one of the topics, among other things.
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