Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 11 - Break The Ice

[Clem]

Hello, I'm going to use your post to explain why I am going to vote ban because I feel like people don't really understand how much of a pain Kyurem is. I am going to use the exact same list of Pokemon you said checked or countered Kyurem, simply because I have a few things to contradict about it.

Smogon definition of counters and checks

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

There are some parts of those definitions that may be confusing to the unfamiliar, so now I'm going to make sure we're all on the same page. "Hax" does not mean cheats or codes used to win. "Hax" means, loosely, things that have a chance of happening but usually don't, for example, critical hits (under most circumstances), Ice Beam freezing, and Fire Blast missing. This means that we don't take into account these types of things when we analyze if one Pokémon checks or counters another. Despite this, it's unwise to declare that one Pokémon checks another when the victorious Pokémon relies on hitting Focus Blast three times in a row, or something like that. Basically, you're often okay ignoring hax unless something that doesn't have a high chance of happening must happen in order for a Pokémon to check or counter another.

There are some things, like flinching, which you would normally consider to be hax but aren't always so. For example, Jirachi has a 60% chance to flinch a slower opponent with Iron Head, so in this case, flinching is not hax because it happens over half the time. For things such as missing or secondary effects, such as a Scald burn or Special Defense drop from Seed Flare, that have a decently high chance of happening, you need to think about them when you analyze checks or counters. Even though they might fit the standard definition of hax, they happen often enough for you to expect to see them in real situations somewhat commonly. There's no official or best guideline, but in my opinion, if some form of "hax" has a 30% chance or higher of happening, you should keep it in the back of your mind because it's not a negligible occurrence.

realized midway throught this that I use Specs Kyurem as an argument fairly often, if someone wants to argue that Specs Modest Kyurem isn't really popular, these are the usage stats for October 2021 on the SS OU ladder for Elo>1825.

Kyurem be like

 +----------------------------------------+
| Kyurem                                 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 279262                      |
| Avg. weight: 0.00571354622619          |
| Viability Ceiling: 94                  |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities                              |
| Pressure 100.000%                      |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items                                  |
| Choice Specs 35.410%                   |
| Heavy-Duty Boots 23.507%               |
| Metronome 11.969%                      |
| Never-Melt Ice 11.860%                 |
| Choice Scarf  8.660%                   |
| Leftovers  6.663%                      |
| Other  1.931%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads                                |
| Modest:0/0/0/252/4/252 24.275%         |
| Modest:0/0/0/252/0/252 16.482%         |
| Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252  7.247%          |
| Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252  4.529%          |
| Hasty:56/0/0/0/200/252  4.529%         |
| Timid:56/0/0/200/0/252  3.866%         |
| Other 39.071%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves                                  |
| Freeze-Dry 92.754%                     |
| Earth Power 86.920%                    |
| Ice Beam 65.860%                       |
| Roost 50.863%                          |
| Focus Blast 32.240%                    |
| Substitute 29.848%                     |
| Icicle Spear 12.451%                   |
| Draco Meteor  9.862%                   |
| Other 19.202%                          |
+----------------------------------------+

: I don't think I even need to explain this one, but I will anyway. Melmetal checks every Kyurem set easily

This is unfortunately not true, as Choice Specs Kyurem can 2HKO even AV Melmetal (128 HP / 252+ SpD) with either of Earth Power ((46 - 54.1%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO / 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) or Focus Blast ((61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
This means that Melmetal, no matter how bulky it is, cannot reliably switch into Kyurem. To properly counter Kyurem with Melmetal, you would need something that can take on Specs Kyurem, which is already a hard task in itself.

: Blissey hard walls every non-DD set for obvious reasons

Once again, this is not true, as Choice Specs Kyurem can 2HKO Blissey with Focus Blast. Here, the odds aren't really in Kyurem's favor, as hitting 2 Focus Blasts in a row and get the proper rolls ((46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO) is not something Kyurem likes to chance vs TWave or Toxic Blissey. Also, SubRoost Kyurem can quite easily PP stall Bliss, especially if Kyurem is Sub DD. Blissey is however quite capable at dealing with NMI / Scarf Kyurem.

: Tyranitar doesn't mind special attacking variants of Kyurem due to Sandstorm's 50% SpDef boost

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

: Tapu Lele is another great offensive counter since it can switch into attacks relatively easily

Lele can switch into Kyurem once and once only no matter what Kyu's set is, that's not a counter. Maybe a one-time check, but that's it.

: Scizor's Bullet Punch easily forces Kyurem to switch out, with a Choice Band making it a clean OHKO

Offensive Scizor really does not like switching into Kyurem, because it can get OHKOd by Focus Blast ((91.8 - 108.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) (and also OffZor is really bad do not use it). SpD Zor rose in popularity to switch into the likes of Kyurem and Lele, but 1- It's not very useful outside of this niche and isn't very good either, and 2- it gets 2HKOd by Modest Kyurem without coming close to threatening it with Bullet Punch (252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 179-211 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). It's not a bad Kyurem switch in per say but the sheer power of Specs Kyu is too much for a mon with 70/80 special bulk.

: Dragapult can't switch directly into Kyurem

Good at revenge killing Kyurem ya

: Volcarona turns Kyurem into setup fodder for its infamous Quiver Dance antics. It switches into attacks easily thanks to its good Special Defense

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 336-396 (108 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 336-396 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Not the most common set I'll give you that but Volc switching into Kyurem easily is just false.

There are plenty of other checks and counters that usually can't directly switch in but dominate against specific sets, so I'll highlight those separately.

: OHKOs any Kyurem not behind a Substitute.

: iron head hax lol

: OHKOs any non-DD Kyurem not behind a Substitute.

: OHKOs any Kyurem not behind a Substitute and always breaks Sub with Surging Strikes.

: Walls any non-DD Kyurem, consistently breaking Substitutes with Sludge Bomb, adding additional damage with Future Sight to bypass Roost, and shrugging off Earth Power damage with Regenerator.

: Eternally walls literally every common set (only on this lower list because Shedinja is very specific and difficult to fit on teams).

I'm not gonna go too much into details for these but yeah revenge killing Kyurem is the best option in most cases but
1- Kyurem is not an easy mon to OHKO, especially without a STAB, super effective move
2- Reliably revenge killing Kyurem implies having a good enough idea of its set, especially of its spread. Bold and Calm Kyurems have been seen a lot recently since SubRoost Kyurem doesn't always need the firepower to make some progress in a game.

I'm sorry if this post comes out as harsh or mean; this is absolutely no what I want. I wanted to use your post to show that contrary to a somewhat popular belief, Kyurem does not have any true counter. Even the rare Shedinja can get smashed by Rock Slide Kyurem, if we're gonna use unsets and unmons as arguments.
Because Kyurem is very restrictive in the teambulding department, and because playing around it requires some very risky switches (without even taking Freeze into account), I will be voting ban.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Argument #2: The freeze chance lets it beat stuff it's not supposed to
I have never and will never understand this argument. How come this is only relevant to Kyurem and only brought up when talking about Kyurem? What about Buzzwole's Ice Punch or Arctozolt's Blizzard? If we want to talk about other status, then what about Blacephalon's Flamethrower? Zapdos' Discharge? Toxapex's Scald? I could keep going. See what I mean? This point is a complete double standard that people only seem to use to stretch out their argument. An argument that could apply to literally any Pokemon that uses a move that can cause status, yet is only ever brought up in the context of Kyurem.

User above did the breakdown of each check or whatever but to answer this since it's a valid question. Kyurem can freeze fish a LOT more easily due to being able to stay in on a lot more and posing a switching threat a lot more often and as such gets to freeze more often statistically than Buzzwole and Artozolt (the former is much easier to force out and the latter is on a timer pretty much always). Same for Blace burning with Flame since it can never switch into anything outside of a wild predict and can only usually Flame one turn at a time till end game. As for Zap Discharge and Pex Scald, a majority the mons that switch into them and take them on often either aren't bothered by the status and still checks them properly (same kinda applys to Blace Flame even to a degree). Plus, Freeze is much more often game changing than burn currently is in practice considering what's taking burns from mons like Heatran or whatever compared to Freeze, which literally imobalizes anything more or less. So no, it's only a double standard when all context is removed.

 

[airfare]

i made a chart visualizing some of the checks to each common set and how they overlap.
might drop my personal opinion on ban/no ban later but for now i think this will be helpful to visualize how annoying each of its 3 sets can be (and they're often found on similar teams as well, making it hard to determine which it is on preview); keep in mind that kyurem (especially subdd) is often paired with stuff like zone, tspikes, and flame body/trapper tran to help remove or cripple a lot of these, and also that some of these checks can be unreliable over time because of pressure stall
lastly
i got the sexiest handwriting oat

thx to Skypenguin QWILY Chiles Habaneros for helpin

 

[qwertyman888]

Most of this has already been addressed, however I would like to say my piece to contribute.

Dragapult can't switch directly into Kyurem, but if it gets a clean switch, Kyurem is either forced to switch out or be wiped from the team, as Infiltrator allows Dragapult to hit Kyurem even behind Substitute. If Kyurem has whittled its health away enough from spamming Substitute, Dragapult can even safely predict with a Shadow Ball so that Steel-types that switch in will be met with a surprise when they aren't staring down a Draco Meteor.

: Walls any non-DD Kyurem, consistently breaking Substitutes with Sludge Bomb, adding additional damage with Future Sight to bypass Roost, and shrugging off Earth Power damage with Regenerator.

: Eternally walls literally every common set (only on this lower list because Shedinja is very specific and difficult to fit on teams).

Instantly loses to DD, as we all know. However, you saying "If Kyurem has whittled its health away enough from spamming Substitute, Dragapult can even safely predict with a Shadow Ball so that Steel-types that switch in will be met with a surprise when they aren't staring down a Draco Meteor" just isn't valid. Any good Kyurem player using it as a win condition WILL do their very best to keep it healthy at all times, plus the fact that NMI doesn't whittle itself down with Sub. And just using Shadow Ball, predicting a Steel, on a healthy Kyurem equals a dead Dragapult. It simply can't afford NOT to click Draco Meteor (an 8 PP move) most of the time. Have you seen BIHI vs. Finchinator? He thought he phazed. Wiped in 11 turns. The Kyurem never even switched. And funny enough, his Melmetal never stood a chance.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-582952


Decent check, but you can't just slap it on and say you're safe from Special Kyurem sets. It certainly doesn't wall. It loses long game to, at the very least, NMI, if not Sub as well, can only recover by switching out, and gets chipped REALLY hard by hazards, to the point that any decent Kyurem play will put it in an awkward position, with Specs Kyurem clicking Ice Beam and 2HKOing after hazards, instead of locking itself into EP.


hahahahahahahahahahaha.

I play stall semi-regularly, which is the only archetype Shedinja is particularly viable on, and Shedinja is NOT a solid Kyurem check. You need something alongside it to protect against Kyurem. Shedinja alone is immediately invalidated if:

+ / /
The opponent has Sand or Hail, which is common, considering Hippowdon's rise back to prominence, Tyranitar "checking" Kyurem, and Hail still being top 2 weather. Any hazard on the field with weather up and Kyurem in makes any Shedinja an instant sack, a surprisingly common scenario for Stall to find itself in.

+ Substitute + DD
The opponent is running Sub+DD Kyurem. It EFFORTLESSLY pp stalls the Hex/Will-o-Wisp/Toxic/Protect set. Happened to me before. SubDD Kyurem is already a good stallbreaker, and Shedinja just can't put out the damage to threaten a Subbed Kyurem with high-PP moves. Not to mention a VERY common teammate of DDkyu is Cosmic Power Mew, also a good stallbreaker. Not only does it effortlessly Taunt out Hex Shedinja (the only viable set on stall imo), but has Synchronize. It comes in on a Will-O-Wisp Shedinja's using to "save" PP even though it still loses, and boom! Not only is it un-toxable now, your Shedinja is very dead.

Don't say SD Poltergeist Shedinja threatens this. It can get stalled out, Kyurem has 5 teammates to absorb it, and don't bother running Shadow Sneak in a meta with Ferro, Rocky Helmet at fairly high usage on other mons, Garchomp, etc. One switch and it's over. Which brings me to my next point:


SKILLED PLAY

Shedinja forces its user to make 50/50s ALL GAME if you're relying on it. One wrong play, and splat. Shedinja is just so predictable. Double switches let the opponent have free momentum, it can't come in all the time, and so many Pokemon threaten it or run coverage for it... it's just SO HARD to use in general and it's really not the best check to Kyurem in this meta, especially versus someone who's baseline competent. If the Kyurem is Specs and there's no powder weather on the opposing team, great. You have something to go into Kyu every time. Definitely no way anyone capitalizes on that.

Argument #3: It's too restrictive on teambuilding
Refer to Argument #1. The main checks/counters I listed already see a good amount of usage and are just genuinely good Pokemon on their own merits. They just happen to be able to check Kyurem. People already know how to build good teams around these Pokemon, so unless you don't use them, you'll find that they'll put in their work if you're able to fit them onto teams. I'm not necessarily sure what else to say - people like to pretend that its supposed "few counters" are rendered useless if facing certain sets, which seems like another excuse for people to scapegoat Kyurem despite their own inability to make a satisfactory team that checks it consistently and reliably.

The point is that prepping for every Kyurem set on a team is INCREDIBLY difficult to do. It doesn't make you go "oop, I need an ice resist or this team is unviable" like Spectrier did with Dark-types being mandatory, since Ice resists are quite common in a lot of team structures. It makes you go "oh, need a Specs check... and a SubDD check... and hopefully those two will be able to beat either set against a skilled opponent... and then I hope I can play around NMI and Sub2A correctly. It's DEFINITELY restrictive on teambuilding and loads of players much, much better than I am agree.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Yo what the fuck... I know this is genuinely community based and you actually have been making an effort to take in people's opinions so I won't say too much. However I will say that as a person who build's independent of the community and isn't too deep in the hype ethos I will absolutely say many of your opinions on Kyuryem are legitimately unfair and exaggerated. I’m grouping and providing a cursory overview however for all of the people that basically are saying

- that it can freeze
- it's restrictive on teambuilding
- pressure is a bitch to deal with
- it's versatile

Now all but the second one are true actually, however the second point I believe is people's main harboring thesis. It is not restrictive, however many of you love running dragons, 4x weak ice mons, and toxapex so I can absolutely see your restricted point of view. However if that's the route you are going there is not a modicum of a chance that you actually believe that the most restrictive mon on teambuilding is kyu. Tangential point I’m aware but I find some of the posts in here disingenuous at best and most likely malicious since I’m of the opinion that they are actually malicious in just making their wins with their teams easier instead of having a healthier metagame.

Anyway besides that, as a person who uses a few variants of Kyu I will say that ice beam hits like a motherfucker, but not that hard unless it's specs. And if it's specs, it's pretty well dealt with. The closest thing I find that's really an issue is the pressure variants. Kyu is really fucking bulky and the pressure set (which is inferior to mew cosmic ) with sub while super annoying and arguably cheap, has many ways around it that deal with other setup threats the same way, so it would be certainly unfair to call Kyu out for that. is it's bulk wild considering it's speed tier and special attack? yes. Is DDance really the treat people say it is, sadly not really. I truly wish it was. It's a surprise yes! But saying that would be flat out ignoring the much more oppressive, faster, and unpredictable dual threat Dragapult which has everything that I listed above except freezing but can pull off a lot more bullshit. Am I for suspecting pult absolutely, but to point this out for the lesser threat in that regard seems... anyway. Let me know your thoughts? I’m open to hearing them. Remember I actually use this mon and am pro banning a lot of threats in the tier. I just don't think this is the one right now.


TL.DR - you peasants are disingenuous babies. Do not ban
edit
ausma that facetious response of yours was uncalled for. I attacked no one, gave my opinion, stated that this was my interpretation, and stated that I’m actually open into hearing people thoughts. I’m not downplaying anything. This is my actual opinion. But hey, I’m going to continue to be respectful toward the perspectives of others whether you agree or not, thanks!

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

Argument #1: Its versatility makes it difficult to actually check
This I don't entirely disagree with. While it is true that the multitude of sets Kyurem could viably run can render certain checks somewhat dummied out, people simply act as though the counters in its sets don't overlap when that couldn't be further from the truth. Simply look above and you'll see what I mean; even the slightly more fringe checks fare well against the most common sets. If you're able to build your team around its checks, which isn't a difficult ask since the main checks are all varying levels of good in their own rights, you'll handle it fine, though most people don't seem to realize that. Kyurem is one of those Pokemon where figuring out its set is key to beating it, and I anticipate that many people will respond to this by saying "Oh But By The Time You Figure The Set Out It's Already KOd Most Of Your Team." To that, I'll say this. Look at a tier like DPP Ubers. Many Pokemon in that tier have tons of viable sets they can run, which means that you're going to need to figure out the set to beat the Pokemon. Despite this, no one Pokemon absolutely rules over the tier to the point of being broken, and DPP Ubers is considered one of the best Smogon metagames ever. I ask you this; what makes Kyurem different?

Argument #2: The freeze chance lets it beat stuff it's not supposed to
I have never and will never understand this argument. How come this is only relevant to Kyurem and only brought up when talking about Kyurem? What about Buzzwole's Ice Punch or Arctozolt's Blizzard? If we want to talk about other status, then what about Blacephalon's Flamethrower? Zapdos' Discharge? Toxapex's Scald? I could keep going. See what I mean? This point is a complete double standard that people only seem to use to stretch out their argument. An argument that could apply to literally any Pokemon that uses a move that can cause status, yet is only ever brought up in the context of Kyurem

as someone who was pro DO NOT BAN and went to PRO BAN i had these 2 arguments at first, but

#1 Kyurem IS one of those pokemon you have to figure out the sets to find out the sets, and to do that consistently, is to look at what the build looks like, the thing is, like my post before, most kyurem set can be slapped on any build and still work, ive seen stall using specs kyurem, or HO use bulky sub roost. "Oh But By The Time You Figure The Set Out It's Already KOd Most Of Your Team." is a valid argument since if you screw around with kyurem too much, you can lose right then and there. "But DPP Ubers, Many of the pokemon in that tier has TONS of viable sets and most of em are very powerful and need to know the sets first to run or else you lose, yet noone is broken"
Buddy, thats dpp ubers, ALL of the mons are in some ways broken, Dialga, Kyogre, Giratina, Latios, Garchomp, Lucario, Palkia, Jirachi are some of the pokemon that i will mention, and all of them are in one way or another, are broken. which means the brokenness of it balanced everything out, not to mention that its Ubers, as someone who loves the tier to death, i love it because of how balanced the meta is despite having TONS of broken pokemon, and thats why ubers is fun.
SS OU doesnt have the luxury of broken mons, yes Melmetal, Lele, Pult, Blace, Volcanion or Volcarona can sometimes feels a bit hard to switch into and get drops, but the thing is unlike kyurem, these mons have more hard counters, and better checks, Melm is slow as hell so hazards and knock chip it down so easily that itll eventually die. Lele gets hard walled by steels, even with specs focus blast, it doesnt KO most, and also the stabs of lele isnt as spammable, Weavile Glowking Steel (corvi or heatran usually) Is a VERY common build that can be slapped on anywhere, and lele struggles vs it hard since it cant spam its stabs as freely and cant really switch in due to it lack luster bulk, Kyurem doesnt have that weakness, its stabs are spammable as hell, common builds like Double Steel in theory destroy kyurem, but it has the coverage to make them obsolete, plus it has incredible bulk letting it get in multiple times in a game and wreak havoc.

#2 i was also on the bandwagon of "Freeze is the same as spdef drop from ghosts since it makes that check no longer good and have to switch, get good" but the difference between a Spdef Drop, Burn, Zapdos Static, Pex Scald, Buzzwole Ice Punch is.

Spdef Drops VS Freeze : this is the most common argument by far, and the different is freeze makes your pokemon immobile, it doesnt do anything for 1 up to 8 turns even, and thats pretty much a KO, you cant do anything but stay in to brute force the thaw or make it a death fodder, aka a free K.O. Spdef Drops however is more managable, since in a team, theres usually 2 ghosts Check (my definition is a pokemon that can take 3 shadow balls: Lando Heatran, Lando Fini, Ferro Glowking, Weavile Glowking, etc) and if you get spdef dropped on one you can switch out and that pokemon will usually still be useful later, and if you get double spdef dropped after you switch, tough luck but you still have another check usually, not to mention, 2 SpDef drops are SUPER RARE so idk if i needed to mention this


30% Para and Burn vs Freeze: Para and burn mainly from zapdos and pex are anoyying, but theyre not as detrimental as freezes. Zapdos para sucks especially if it gets your Shifu, Kart, or Skewda rendering them semi useless, but the thing is, they can still do work vs zapdos's other teammate which are things like ferro or heatran. even so, you dont use this to counter zapdos, u usually go to Heatran, Lando, Kyurem and these things dont mind para that much since they still work even with it, so the consequences of para and freeze are very different. one is making a pokemon sometimes useless, another is making a pokemon ALWAYS useless.
Burn is even less detrimental, halving an attack sucks but what are you switching into pex anyways? grounds getting burned sucks but they can still check pex and be an elec immune or set up hazards, ferro doesnt mind burn at all! and lele or zapdos being burned is fine, they more worry about knock. so putting burns in the same category as freeze is overselling it

Buzzwole and Zolt VS Kyurem:
Buzzwole doesnt ALWAYS spam ice punch and even so, buzzwole has more counters and usually gets chipped down easily, arctozolt is on a timer everytime so a freeze doesnt matter that much.

 

[ausma]

Yo what the fuck... I know this is genuinely community based and you actually have been making an effort to take in people's opinions so I won't say too much. However I will say that as a person who build's independent of the community and isn't too deep in the hype ethos I will absolutely say many of your opinions on Kyuryem are legitimately unfair and exaggerated. I’m grouping and providing a cursory overview however for all of the people that basically are saying

- that it can freeze
- it's restrictive on teambuilding
- pressure is a bitch to deal with
- it's versatile

Now all but the second one are true actually, however the second point I believe is people's main harboring thesis. It is not restrictive, however many of you love running dragons, 4x weak ice mons, and toxapex so I can absolutely see your restricted point of view. However if that's the route you are going there is not a modicum of a chance that you actually believe that the most restrictive mon on teambuilding is kyu. Tangential point I’m aware but I find some of the posts in here disingenuous at best and most likely malicious since I’m of the opinion that they are actually malicious in just making their wins with their teams easier instead of having a healthier metagame.

Anyway besides that, as a person who uses a few variants of Kyu I will say that ice beam hits like a motherfucker, but not that hard unless it's specs. And if it's specs, it's pretty well dealt with. The closest thing I find that's really an issue is the pressure variants. Kyu is really fucking bulky and the pressure set (which is inferior to mew cosmic ) with sub while super annoying and arguably cheap, has many ways around it that deal with other setup threats the same way, so it would be certainly unfair to call Kyu out for that. is it's bulk wild considering it's speed tier and special attack? yes. Is DDance really the treat people say it is, sadly not really. I truly wish it was. It's a surprise yes! But saying that would be flat out ignoring the much more oppressive, faster, and unpredictable dual threat Dragapult which has everything that I listed above except freezing but can pull off a lot more bullshit. Am I for suspecting pult absolutely, but to point this out for the lesser threat in that regard seems... anyway. Let me know your thoughts? I’m open to hearing them. Remember I actually use this mon and am pro banning a lot of threats in the tier. I just don't think this is the one right now.


TL.DR - you peasants are disingenuous babies. Do not ban

You are welcome to believe and feel whatever you want regarding about Kyurem and whether or not it is banworthy, but to downplay people's stances on the metagame and the massive support from qualified players regarding Kyurem in the metagame by calling them disingenuous and even going as far as calling them malicious is beyond uncalled for and is completely baseless considering the support and reasoning for the suspect. Please keep this kind of behavior out of the suspect thread and be respectful toward the perspectives of others whether you agree or not, thanks!

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Yo what the fuck... I know this is genuinely community based and you actually have been making an effort to take in people's opinions so I won't say too much. However I will say that as a person who build's independent of the community and isn't too deep in the hype ethos I will absolutely say many of your opinions on Kyuryem are legitimately unfair and exaggerated. I’m grouping and providing a cursory overview however for all of the people that basically are saying

- that it can freeze
- it's restrictive on teambuilding
- pressure is a bitch to deal with
- it's versatile

Now all but the second one are true actually, however the second point I believe is people's main harboring thesis. It is not restrictive, however many of you love running dragons, 4x weak ice mons, and toxapex so I can absolutely see your restricted point of view. However if that's the route you are going there is not a modicum of a chance that you actually believe that the most restrictive mon on teambuilding is kyu. Tangential point I’m aware but I find some of the posts in here disingenuous at best and most likely malicious since I’m of the opinion that they are actually malicious in just making their wins with their teams easier instead of having a healthier metagame.

Anyway besides that, as a person who uses a few variants of Kyu I will say that ice beam hits like a motherfucker, but not that hard unless it's specs. And if it's specs, it's pretty well dealt with. The closest thing I find that's really an issue is the pressure variants. Kyu is really fucking bulky and the pressure set (which is inferior to mew cosmic ) with sub while super annoying and arguably cheap, has many ways around it that deal with other setup threats the same way, so it would be certainly unfair to call Kyu out for that. is it's bulk wild considering it's speed tier and special attack? yes. Is DDance really the treat people say it is, sadly not really. I truly wish it was. It's a surprise yes! But saying that would be flat out ignoring the much more oppressive, faster, and unpredictable dual threat Dragapult which has everything that I listed above except freezing but can pull off a lot more bullshit. Am I for suspecting pult absolutely, but to point this out for the lesser threat in that regard seems... anyway. Let me know your thoughts? I’m open to hearing them. Remember I actually use this mon and am pro banning a lot of threats in the tier. I just don't think this is the one right now.


TL.DR - you peasants are disingenuous babies. Do not ban

Saying stuff like this, especially the bold, does not make you look credible. As things are, Kyurem checks are few and far between, and most of them lose to another set. Brought Blissey along? Better hope it isn't Sub DD. Using Melmetal as your Kyurem check? If it's specs or Never Melt Ice, you're still in a bad way, especially as Melmetal has no recovery.

Argument #2: The freeze chance lets it beat stuff it's not supposed to
I have never and will never understand this argument. How come this is only relevant to Kyurem and only brought up when talking about Kyurem? What about Buzzwole's Ice Punch or Arctozolt's Blizzard? If we want to talk about other status, then what about Blacephalon's Flamethrower? Zapdos' Discharge? Toxapex's Scald? I could keep going. See what I mean? This point is a complete double standard that people only seem to use to stretch out their argument. An argument that could apply to literally any Pokemon that uses a move that can cause status, yet is only ever brought up in the context of Kyurem.

Like was stated already, there's a major difference between freeze and all this other stuff. A frozen Pokemon is essentially no different from a fainted Pokemon, unless you get lucky and thaw out immediately (and if you don't, you just gave your opponent a free turn to do whatever). Paralyze pales in comparison, as it doesn't always render the mon useless, and burn does nothing to special attackers. Stat drops from the likes of Shadow Ball are annoying, but in comparison to a freeze, that's all they are - an annoyance at best.

 

[apoteosis]

I think the main issue regarding Kyu is that it’s over centralized. Many of the post I’ve seen start from the position of the defender.
But what about the attack position?
It’s not like you can slam kyu onto your team and do the magic. Kyu is not broken by itself; it needs support. First you need a stallbreaker to deal with Blissey and other Spdef walls. Heatran comes to mind, which also has the advantage of countering volcarona . And finally, you need to trap stuff like scizor and Melmetal. There goes your magnezone.

The consequence? A meta crowded with steel types. Just kyu plus a bunch of steel cores. Is that healthy? Throw in the freeze chance and the number of viable sets kyu has and it’s a nightmare.

 

[Feelingmo]

Personally, if I get reqs, I will be voting for Kyurem to stay in the tier. In my opinion, it is hardly anywhere near overbearing or restrictive on teambuilding, and as much as people don't want to admit it, there are plenty of ways to reliably check it, even over the course of an overall game. I suppose I should start by highlighting those checks and counters and then going over some common arguments made in opposition.

: I don't think I even need to explain this one, but I will anyway. Melmetal checks every Kyurem set easily; its AV set especially helps against the common SubRoost set, it tanks hits from the Dragon Dance + Icicle Spear set easily, and it OHKOs it even behind Substitute with DIB. Not much more to say, honestly, but that brings up the fundamental problem with Kyurem - it's too reliant on Substitute and too many of its checks (which I'll mention later) can take advantage of this. Its issue is that its below mediocre defensive typing forces it to constantly spam Substitute and Roost away the damage, which just makes it overly passive, highly susceptible to Taunt, and allows Pokemon to switch in for free and break its Substitute, forcing it to switch out lest it be used as setup fodder. Instant recovery is what pushes Kyurem over the edge in some people's eyes, but I'd argue it forces it to, as I said before, stay more passive, which generally isn't something you want for a wallbreaker.

: Blissey hard walls every non-DD set for obvious reasons, consistently breaking Kyurem's Substitute with Seismic Toss (if it doesn't invest in HP, though it usually does (but not always lol)), afflicting it with Toxic to somewhat nullify Roost, shrugging off Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry's potential freeze chance with Natural Cure, and utilizing Aromatherapy/Heal Bell to help out teammates afflicted by freeze. Even then, the most common Blissey set can tank a DD-boosted Icicle Spear, even if it hits 5 times, which also means it can survive 2 5-hit Icicle Spears if they are unboosted (of course, these are assuming none of the hits are critical). If it can't break Substitute with ST, it can always Teleport out to safely bring in a teammate that can, like the aforementioned Melmetal (as well as others that I WILL MENTION LATER OK I'M ALREADY TIRED OF SAYING THIS).

: Tyranitar doesn't mind special attacking variants of Kyurem due to Sandstorm's 50% SpDef boost, and breaks Sub with Rock Blast, which will always break Sub even if it lands only two times, and can cripple it with Taunt or Thunder Wave. Once again, its ability to counter it is all surface-level stuff, so there isn't much to say except that Earthquake can nail Heatran, who is a common partner for Kyurem since it provides safety against strong Fire-types.

: Tapu Lele is another great offensive counter since it can switch into attacks relatively easily and get rid of Kyurem with its Moonblast, which OHKOs with Specs. Scarf variants can't OHKO it from full health, but a little bit of chip damage will put it into Moonblast range easily, and Scarf is arguably safer in certain scenarios since they both speed-tie otherwise.. Speaking of chip damage, hazards can force Kyurem to Roost constantly and give up momentum, providing opportunities for Pokemon like Lele to switch in and potentially force it out or flat out KO it. Its susceptibility to hazards, especially Stealth Rock, is why it usually runs HDB, which makes it more vulnerable to Knock Off.

: Scizor's Bullet Punch easily forces Kyurem to switch out, with a Choice Band making it a clean OHKO and its ability to force a switch especially compounded by its +1 priority, which is also helpful against DD variants. It takes hits relatively well and can handle them more easily if it chooses to go a specially defensive route to handle those sets. Great coverage in Superpower also makes some of Kyurem's common partners, such as Heatran and Magnezone, reluctant to switch in.

: Dragapult can't switch directly into Kyurem, but if it gets a clean switch, Kyurem is either forced to switch out or be wiped from the team, as Infiltrator allows Dragapult to hit Kyurem even behind Substitute. If Kyurem has whittled its health away enough from spamming Substitute, Dragapult can even safely predict with a Shadow Ball so that Steel-types that switch in will be met with a surprise when they aren't staring down a Draco Meteor.

: Volcarona turns Kyurem into setup fodder for its infamous Quiver Dance antics. It switches into attacks easily thanks to its good Special Defense alongside a resistance to Ice and a Ground neutrality, so Kyurem's only hope is aiming for that 10% freeze chance (and I don't think I need to explain why that isn't a good idea).

There are plenty of other checks and counters that usually can't directly switch in but dominate against specific sets, so I'll highlight those separately.

: OHKOs any Kyurem not behind a Substitute.

: iron head hax lol

: OHKOs any non-DD Kyurem not behind a Substitute.

: OHKOs any Kyurem not behind a Substitute and always breaks Sub with Surging Strikes.

: Walls any non-DD Kyurem, consistently breaking Substitutes with Sludge Bomb, adding additional damage with Future Sight to bypass Roost, and shrugging off Earth Power damage with Regenerator.

: Eternally walls literally every common set (only on this lower list because Shedinja is very specific and difficult to fit on teams).


Now for the section where I rebut points and arguments made in favor of Kyurem's ban.

Argument #1: Its versatility makes it difficult to actually check
This I don't entirely disagree with. While it is true that the multitude of sets Kyurem could viably run can render certain checks somewhat dummied out, people simply act as though the counters in its sets don't overlap when that couldn't be further from the truth. Simply look above and you'll see what I mean; even the slightly more fringe checks fare well against the most common sets. If you're able to build your team around its checks, which isn't a difficult ask since the main checks are all varying levels of good in their own rights, you'll handle it fine, though most people don't seem to realize that. Kyurem is one of those Pokemon where figuring out its set is key to beating it, and I anticipate that many people will respond to this by saying "Oh But By The Time You Figure The Set Out It's Already KOd Most Of Your Team." To that, I'll say this. Look at a tier like DPP Ubers. Many Pokemon in that tier have tons of viable sets they can run, which means that you're going to need to figure out the set to beat the Pokemon. Despite this, no one Pokemon absolutely rules over the tier to the point of being broken, and DPP Ubers is considered one of the best Smogon metagames ever. I ask you this; what makes Kyurem different?

Argument #2: The freeze chance lets it beat stuff it's not supposed to
I have never and will never understand this argument. How come this is only relevant to Kyurem and only brought up when talking about Kyurem? What about Buzzwole's Ice Punch or Arctozolt's Blizzard? If we want to talk about other status, then what about Blacephalon's Flamethrower? Zapdos' Discharge? Toxapex's Scald? I could keep going. See what I mean? This point is a complete double standard that people only seem to use to stretch out their argument. An argument that could apply to literally any Pokemon that uses a move that can cause status, yet is only ever brought up in the context of Kyurem.

Argument #3: It's too restrictive on teambuilding
Refer to Argument #1. The main checks/counters I listed already see a good amount of usage and are just genuinely good Pokemon on their own merits. They just happen to be able to check Kyurem. People already know how to build good teams around these Pokemon, so unless you don't use them, you'll find that they'll put in their work if you're able to fit them onto teams. I'm not necessarily sure what else to say - people like to pretend that its supposed "few counters" are rendered useless if facing certain sets, which seems like another excuse for people to scapegoat Kyurem despite their own inability to make a satisfactory team that checks it consistently and reliably.


tldr, the pro-ban side of this argument has failed to convice me that banning Kyurem is a decision that makes sense for the metagame and a decision that will leave the metagame healthier in the end. I'm not saying Kyurem is garbage, it's absolutely a fantastic Pokemon, but it's not anywhere near ban-worthy in my opinion. In recent times where Kyurem has skyrocketed in popularity, I've rarely found my teams overwhelmed by it to the point where I can say "Yeah, get it out of here."

ok i've been typing this out for the past 4 hours i might add some stuff later if i feel like it
(keep the haha reactions rolling in they only fuel me)

Most of the mons that you sent get 2hkod by its moves and cant switch in

 

[WhiteQueen]

What makes Kyurem OP isn’t its sets; it stupid ass bulk, on top of its versatility and ability, is what makes it overbearing. Unless it’s a Double Bash from Melmetal, Kyurem can distribute its EVs to survive virtually most attacks in the game, absorb 2-3 super effective hits without needing to heal itself (hey Clefable and your weak Moonblast), Roost, Substitute, rinse and repeat to PP stall and use supposed checks as set up fodders.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

What makes Kyurem OP isn’t its sets; it stupid ass bulk, on top of its versatility and ability, is what makes it overbearing. Unless it’s a Double Bash from Melmetal, Kyurem can distribute its EVs to survive virtually most attacks in the game, absorb 2-3 super effective hits without needing to heal itself (hey Clefable and your weak Moonblast), Roost, Substitute, rinse and repeat to PP stall and use supposed checks as set up fodders.

Respectfully what teams are you running that "Unless it’s a Double Bash from Melmetal, Kyurem can distribute its EVs to survive virtually most attacks in the game, absorb 2-3 super effective hits without needing to heal itself" is a true statement for you?

On both sides, both using kyu and facing kyu, this is truly not an issue I have run across nor faced. Nor have I seen in replays. If you're running what I would consider wimp teams / mini stall teams or just weak balance I can def see this as being true for you though.
Edit
Niko
you saw that I’m Omari P and think I've been using 1 team since dlc2? That cannot be something you actually believe for real lol. like I’m all for crits man I really am! but like be forreal here. I do lives with Storm where we sample like 10 teams at a time and if uve ever seen one ud realize that I have a lot of them. but hey maybe you actually didn't know man. But ya you're wrong here; even you look at the date of that link you posted you'd know that you were wrong lol. But hey, ty for the calls; some of those should be expected but one or 2 are surprising

 

[Niko]

Respectfully what teams are you running that "Unless it’s a Double Bash from Melmetal, Kyurem can distribute its EVs to survive virtually most attacks in the game, absorb 2-3 super effective hits without needing to heal itself" is a true statement for you?

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem: 408-482 (89.8 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Kyurem: 384-452 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem: 152-180 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Kyurem: 342-404 (75.3 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem: 164-194 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem: 382-450 (84.1 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem: 360-426 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Tapu Fini Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem: 162-192 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

be strong bro, i'm sure you will find a replacement for kyurem in the single team you've been using since dlc2 was released, who has scarf kyurem + av victini + glastrier and sd close combat mew as kyurem soft checks / rkillers

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Respectfully what teams are you running that "Unless it’s a Double Bash from Melmetal, Kyurem can distribute its EVs to survive virtually most attacks in the game, absorb 2-3 super effective hits without needing to heal itself" is a true statement for you?

On both sides, both using kyu and facing kyu, this is truly not an issue I have run across nor faced. Nor have I seen in replays. If you're running what I would consider wimp teams / mini stall teams or just weak balance I can def see this as being true for you though.

A team I found https://pokepast.es/ffbe356537b667d6 Uses a very sp. def DD kyurem that can stall pokemon such as clefable, slowking-g, tornadus-therian, and more bulky pokemon it can set up on. The extra bulk also provides it with more pokemon either not being able to break the sub, or not being able to do enough damage and as a result can roost stall pokemon like kyurem, glowking, and uninvested fairies.

It can litterally beat its counters by adjusting its sets for it, like DD icicle spear for blissey, Sp. Def for opposing kyurem, clef, glowking, and more, NMI as a way to break through teams who rely on it locking itself into one move.

The argument "I have never had this issue before therefore not broken" is pretty shit... I mean you are using one team with like a shit ton of counterplay... I mean building teams and have to factor all of its sets are a pain in the ass as is and then you have to acutally deal with them in game or esp in tours when you have no idea which it could be because its not ladder. Mimikyu Stardust already made a post about how hard it can actually be to determine the sets from preview and how you can lose pokemon if you got the wrong set.

" If you're running what I would consider wimp teams / mini stall teams or just weak balance I can def see this as being true for you though. " If you are what I consider a one trick and built it specifically to fuck kyurem over.. then of course I can see this being true for you.. but for the general public? Nah not really.

 

[Double Electric]

One tidbit I'll add is that despite all the matchup issues and set guessing that Kyurem tends to create, one archetype that really doesn't care about Kyurem at all is Trick Room. Like, obviously TR has its own matchup issues and limitations, but for the most part, you don't even notice Kyurem when playing TR. The substitute and DD sets especially are completely worthless against bulky setters (Pory/Cres) + a faster Melmetal, and Kyurem doesn't love facing faster A-Marowak either.

That isn't to say Kyurem teams can't beat trick room--it's teammates often can--but in general, it won't be anywhere near your MvP.

 

[LudwigFrog]

i'll try to be short cuz nobody reads wall of texts and we saw enough about this dude yet:

- the coverage is almost perfect, the few things not dying still have a very high risk to be frozen. 10% chance becomes smth solid when you can spam dry/beam multiple times before withdrawing in front of the (soft) checks. for example, after 3 freeze dries chances are 27% which is close to a scald burn. boots neutralize one of the most annoying weakness, the hazards, but actually dozens of variants regarding items, movepool and EV spreads are viable and require different approaches to face them. for sure not a healthy situation for smth with such a good natural firepower, and i'm only considering the special kyurem right now

- just the fact that physical kyurem exists and that it can do this and this (i only looked in felix reps, there are hundreds similar) is a permanent worry for a player facing kyurem. there are maybe 3 mons that can reliably deal with this thing long term and they are all kinda easy to overload, once you know that it's all you got to do. and so people developed strats with flame body, magnezone, cresselia...but this kind of cheese isn't that healthy if you think about it.

- revenge killing is way harder than it looks, kyurem is very bulky especially with defensive spreads that aren't rare at all. it is also a big pain in the builder (because of what i said before, checks are almost non-existent and some are suboptimal, you wouldn't play them if not for kyu) and in the actual game and something that you always end up hating when you face it. this is for sure a problem in ladder but not even close to the problem that it is in tournaments. fact is, except some dd sets, kyurem is a stand alone. it doesn't need specific support and so it is also very difficult to understand what specific variant the kyurem you are facing is by looking at the rest of the team.

Kyurem is one of the best pokemon in current Gen 8 OU

Locking this for the first 24 hours

Kyurem is currently one of the best pokemon in OU and for good reason. It has base 130 on both attacking stats, base 95 speed, a variety of sets and good natural bulk. While Kyurem may be a meta Defining pokemon, it's not ban worthy in my opinion.

Lack of Speed for Power:
Kyurem has many sets that you will need to play around. Choice Specs, Never Melt Ice, Sub Roost, Sub Dragon Dance, and Choice Scarf. Something Kyurem lacks compared to other breakers (Weavile, Tapu Lele, Blacephalon etc) is a lack of speed and priority. Kyurem dosent have crazy strong base power on its moves besides Draco Meteor. Kyurem can't really deal much damage unless it's modest with Never Melt Ice, or Choice Specs. Problem is, this Nature leaves Kyurem open to pokemon like Tapu Lele, Nidoking, Excadrill and so on. Kyurem can't deal massive damage without Choice Specs, or Modest Nature.


Checks and Counters:
Kyurem is often said to have no counters or checks. While this in a sense is true (Besides Shedinja), a lot of people don't take team comp into consideration. For example, Slowking Galar can wall every set of Kyurem, besides the DD set. Slowking Galar is often paired with physical walls like Buzzwole or Corviknight to name a few. Another example is Scizor. While Scizor is debatably only seeing usage in OU due to Kyurem, Weavile and Tapu Lele rising in usage, it can be considered a counter in a sense. Scizor shuts down every set, besides Choice Specs, which it might not enjoy taking focus blast, but Scizors Teamates usually would come prepared if the team builder puts some care into it. Kyurem does have a lot of checks, like Blissey, Scizor, Glowking, Ferrothorn. All of these pokemon wall the NMI set, but must fear focus blast from Kyurem. In conclusion to this section, it may not have many "true counters", but it has a lot of checks, and these checks paired with their common partners can easily have a way of winning.


Offensive Checks:
As I mentioned before, Kyurem lacks speed, and power if it runs a Choice Scarf set. It dosen't enjoy the presence of other faster pokemon like Gapdos, Weavile, Kartana and so on. It is forced to run modest, so its slower than a lot of pokemon, and can make it hard to actually get in and click buttons if the opponent is applying good pressure (pun wasn't intended lol). It has to really have something it enjoys hitting, like Tapu Fini, or Rillaboom, otherwise it can be hard for Kyurem to come in and start throwing out its attacks.


Common Moves and Options:
Common moves like Knock Off are really popular these days, especially with the rise of Weavile. Kyurem hates Knock Off a lot. Removing its Choice Specs or NMI removes its power boost, really making it less scary and limited to switch into. Removing its boots from sub roost Kyurem, making it more difficult for Kyurem to switch in on hazards. Speaking of Hazards, Kyurem also has a big stealth rock weakness as well, and it dosen't enjoy coming in on spikes either. Kyurem can't afford to run boots on an offensive set, as it makes Kyurem lack power, and it dosem't have speed, priority or a scary setup like something like Weavile or Volcarona.

Conclusion:
Kyurem is a great pokemon, but it is not ban worthy in my opinion. It dosen't have the Uber qualities like some of the more recent bans had, like a near impossible to switch in move that crits, and has no immunitys like Urshifu S, or a broken Ability like Spectrier and Magearna. It has a lot of counterplay, and isn't to limiting to where its just way to hard for the person not using the Mon to win.
My vote will be put into DNB.

Also my smogon glitched idk why it replied like that.

 

[Myzozoa]

- it's restrictive on teambuilding

For me, this is the only reason I care about keeping it in the tier. I just get a weird feeling from the more outlandish arguments being thrown around in the thread (i,e "Blissy only exists to check Kyurem, it beats Scizor w/o freeze, it shouldn't beat heatran" I can't make this stuff up...), that some people have just maybe never played a tier where you have to use a set of specific mons in order to be able to answer the tier's big threats. That sounds unlikely when you have a majority of users finding it broken, but some of these arguments are unexplainable.

Like if it's true and Kyurem is really the most busted thing running around rn, gosh do I get the feeling that some people itt skip on preparing for it.

Now it is probably true that Kyurem is really broken, and I won't be put out one bit if it gets banned, but so far the reasons aren't that convincing. It's like... yes, if you are really good at prediction Kyurem slays the tier. no question. And so do Tapu Lele and I mean tbh Gengar probably slays the tier, or w.e Kyurem does, if you're REALLY good at predicting the fat n slow switch-ins/ your opponent is really unprepared. Get your damage calcs ready for LO gengar bois.

So then we can only be talking about the sub sets, I guess, if we are going to seriously talk about this pokemon. The sub dd set is not good against offense straight up, I don't think anyone really argues otherwise, but I'm sure they will after this post. And the sub roost set is also not amazing against offense (actual offense people, with priorities and momentum/tempo control and everything). So the qualified player list might be seen as being set against a pokemon that threatens the slow n fat and pp stallable and liable to freeze meta (and you understand that the more passive you are the more likely you are to be frozen right? ok just checking. I have to check you now cause ppl have said some pretty outlandish things in this thread). We've turned to slow n fat teams cause there is nothing better in this tier where anyone can bring anything that makes an ounce of sense any game and expect a good shot at winning, or at least a chance thats no worse than if you bring something else. But what if we could have a meta where things actually made sense, and you actually could reasonably predict the most likely things your opponent will bring and prepare a reasonable strategy for all of them with 6 pokemon? This is my only goal for gen 8 ou, and I hope people who are smarter than me will start thinking about how this can come about. Banning kyurem could certainly be a step towards this goal, but only if people are actually on the same page about the problems our metagame has.

I also get that Kyurem pressure stalls slow fat things that we have gotten used to relying on. And I am certainly out of touch, but I mean, if we're banning things cause in PP stall and 10% freeze chance are winning most battles, I find it a bit hard to believe that I'm the only one that lost the plot. There is always going to be a thing that punishes through exploiting low chance secondary affects, and there will always be things that exploit pp. If Kyurem does both these things so well that a majority of good players find it broken, then by all means ban it, but I feel that the reasons and the goals should be clear and shared.

So in summary, the arguments are not all that impressive, at least to me, the vision for the tier is opaque at best if there even is one beyond "do a poll and see what happens next", and if you want to ban this, to be consistent I would expect you all to vote 69(nice)% for a Tapu Lele suspect next. Thats what would reassure me I guess: understanding the vision for the tier and how banning kyurem fits in a larger process to bring this tier into something reasonable to play.

 

[TailGlowVM]

and if you want to ban this, to be consistent I would expect you all to vote 69(nice)% for a Tapu Lele suspect next.

That's not a fair comparison at all. While it's true that Tapu Lele hits harder, shares a speed tier and is similarly threatening to bulkier cores, it can't be compared to Kyurem at all here. Consider this:

Tapu Lele lacks Kyurem's bulk and recovery - while Kyurem can't really be said to be said to be a concrete answer to anything, it can afford to switch into some defensive Pokemon like Slowbro, and even act as a one-time check to a few offensive Pokemon like Nidoking, Zapdos, and Volcanion. Tapu Lele is limited to deterring and switching into Choice-locked Fighting-type moves from a few Pokemon and Choice Scarf Tapu Fini. It also gets revenge killed by several things Kyurem isn't from full health. Kyurem and Tapu Lele are already really the only major offensive presences in this metagame that provide no defined defensive utility.

It so far lacks the same tools as Kyurem has utilised to get around the double-Steel cores that became prominent a while back - there's been some more Choice Scarf and Calm Mind sets used since then, but they've nowhere near reached the dominance of Kyurem's new Never-Melt Ice set.

No Pressure or Dragon Dance or Roost or the fantastic coverage mono-Ice attacks alone can offer means it can't even attempt to do a PP stalling set to beat Steels like Kyurem can.

Much, much worse offensive coverage - Kyurem only really needs two moves to do adequate damage to the entire metagame save for Volcarona, Blissey and Scizor. Tapu Lele also has a dual STAB combination that leaves it walled by Steel-types, but no Earth Power-type move to cover them - Focus Blast puts you at the mercy of 70% accuracy and still doesn't OHKO Heatran or specially defensive Ferrothorn, and you need Thunderbolt to hit Corviknight.

 

[Xufactor]

No opinion on ban, but I run Calm Blissey all the time because natures yield a 1.1 multiplier and Blissey is a special wall. This allows it to take boosted special hits better and take more before it has to soft boiled. Since evs are additive, I put 252 in def as always.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 200 HP / 56+ SpD Blissey: 290-342 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Calm Blissey does not get 2hkoed by Focus blast.

 

[coral fan]

I wanna adress a couple points from the perspective of someone voting Do Not Ban

vs
Specs Lele is definitely comparable to Specs Kyurem. Every single OU mon gets 2HKOed by lele. Even Slowking, the "Lele answer" gets 2HKOed by Thunderbolt (not even Thunder!)
(252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Scizor gets Focus Blasted with the same power as Kyurem's, so if you argue that's not a switch-in for Kyurem then be consistent and argue the same for Leleand it doesn't even need to risk hitting 2 + getting the roll (<50% odds btw) vs Blissey - Psyshock easily 2HKOs any Blissey set. Both are answered by Shedinja on stall teams, constantly forcing doubles and especially in Kyurem's case requiring hazard removal from the non-stall player's team.
When teambuilding, yes, Specs Kyurem is somewhat restrictive because, on balance/bulky offense you generally need a freeze dry resist with decent spdef, meaning your standard spdef Lando-T or Clef doesn't cut it. But in the same way, Lele forces a non-dark Psychic resist. Both often have coverage to 2HKO almost anything in the tier, meaning you do have to play well, make predictions sometimes, play safe at others, sometimes risk luck from a spdef drop/freeze and aim to play around that the best that you can. Both have 95 speed which is actually not amazing for SS OU but the ability to 2HKO most mons means they are both threatening wallbreakers that force prep in the teambuilder. Hopefully we can agree on that?
Specs Kyurem is around equally as restrictive as Specs Tapu Lele when building a non-HO team.

's versatility (and how this compares to and
Yes, many of Kyurem's traditional switch-ins do not appreciate coming across the Sub variant. But is it really fair to say this is a trait exclusive to Kyurem? Of course not. Take mew, for example. It has around a 1 in 3 chance of running Cosmic Power/Stored Power, the "Demon Mew". A traditional answer to this could be preserving your Dark type. But wait, 1 in 10 Mews run Body Press. Suddenly, you've just sacked your Buzzwole and now you're completely unprepared for it. Feels like a cheap way for your opponent to win, right, especially since you likely couldn't predict its set from preview and you couldn't even judge its set whilst it tried to set up Cosmic Powers. Well that's why we should suspect Mew after this. Well that's comparable to Kyurem, except often by calcing or making a midground play you can see its set as soon as it uses its first move - since it's either wallbreaking or it's subbing up/doing less damage because of a scarf/boots. You can also think of Dragapult as another mon comparable to Kyurem, since not only does it have a Specs set with very few switchins plus a notable % chance to bs its way through anything, it also has set variety that isn't always possible to predict at preview, and the answers to those sets can be completely different. For example, you might assume it's standard specs and switch in Blissey but then it goes for Sub and then DD on your Teleport/switch and now it's getting at least kill or two. Or maybe you switch your Mandibuzz into a Specs Thunderbolt, assuming it's standard. Or the same could go for Heatran/Hippo and Hydro Pump.
Kyurem's unpredictability and relative lack of overlap in its sets' answers is not a trait it exclusively has, and it is not even the worst offender of it in the tier.

If you're pro-ban, the chad consistent move is to say yes, ban Mew, ban Lele and/or ban Pult, too, but realistically I think those mons aren't problematic, they are just manageable but vital parts of the metagame just like Kyurem is. To anyone that is pro-ban but opposed to any kind of council action on the others I ask, what distinguises Kyurem from these other mons that makes Kyu banworthy and the others not even worth suspect testing?

 

[VannAccessible]

One tidbit I'll add is that despite all the matchup issues and set guessing that Kyurem tends to create, one archetype that really doesn't care about Kyurem at all is Trick Room. Like, obviously TR has its own matchup issues and limitations, but for the most part, you don't even notice Kyurem when playing TR. The substitute and DD sets especially are completely worthless against bulky setters (Pory/Cres) + a faster Melmetal, and Kyurem doesn't love facing faster A-Marowak either.

That isn't to say Kyurem teams can't beat trick room--it's teammates often can--but in general, it won't be anywhere near your MvP.

Actually, I'll offer a thought on this! It's true Kyruem that itself doesn't often phase Trick Room because of Melmetal trashing it, but Melmetal being the TR styles premier Sub breaker does leave it weak to other sub users, namely mons like Aegislash, Suicune and Toxic Volcanion. Therefore, Sub users Melmetal cannot beat often make Trick Room lose at team preview. For this reason, I've attempted to run Specs Toxtricity on TR in the past, which is a potent special breaker that doesn't care about Substitute, or get all its momentum sapped by Blissey and Glowking because it has access to Volt Switch. However! If you try to replace Melmetal with Specs Toxtricity, you suddenly lose to Kyruem, as with some investment it is so fat that it can often tank a Specs boosted Boomburst, even AFTER losing 25% of its HP to making a Sub. That is insane.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Checks and Counters:
Kyurem is often said to have no counters or checks. While this in a sense is true (Besides Shedinja), a lot of people don't take team comp into consideration. For example, Slowking Galar can wall every set of Kyurem, besides the DD set. Slowking Galar is often paired with physical walls like Buzzwole or Corviknight to name a few. Another example is Scizor. While Scizor is debatably only seeing usage in OU due to Kyurem, Weavile and Tapu Lele rising in usage, it can be considered a counter in a sense. Scizor shuts down every set, besides Choice Specs, which it might not enjoy taking focus blast, but Scizors Teamates usually would come prepared if the team builder puts some care into it. Kyurem does have a lot of checks, like Blissey, Scizor, Glowking, Ferrothorn. All of these pokemon wall the NMI set, but must fear focus blast from Kyurem. In conclusion to this section, it may not have many "true counters", but it has a lot of checks, and these checks paired with their common partners can easily have a way of winning.

The question is, how many of these checks and counters are actually reliable, as opposed to "they check one set, but lose if Kyurem is running something that's not the set they check"? Because you cannot guess what the Kyurem set is from team preview; as was stated by Mimikyu Stardust, people have made Kyurem work with set Y on a team where it would be expected to use set X. And there's the fact that some of the moves Kyurem oft runs can freeze, which is no bueno when a freeze essentially means you're down a mon short of getting lucky. Anyway... Blissey is rather passive, and thus exploitable, Glowking can only heal by switching out (and also takes hazard damage if it's Assault Vest), Ferrothorn has no recovery... yeah. Also, Kyurem has partners, and they can support it (hint: all of those Pokemon I just mentioned hate being hit with Knock Off).

Lack of Speed for Power:
Kyurem has many sets that you will need to play around. Choice Specs, Never Melt Ice, Sub Roost, Sub Dragon Dance, and Choice Scarf. Something Kyurem lacks compared to other breakers (Weavile, Tapu Lele, Blacephalon etc) is a lack of speed and priority. Kyurem dosent have crazy strong base power on its moves besides Draco Meteor. Kyurem can't really deal much damage unless it's modest with Never Melt Ice, or Choice Specs. Problem is, this Nature leaves Kyurem open to pokemon like Tapu Lele, Nidoking, Excadrill and so on. Kyurem can't deal massive damage without Choice Specs, or Modest Nature.

A mon with 130 base in both attacking stats and 95 speed "lacks speed and power"?? Are you kidding me? What the hell are you comparing it to?? If Kyurem really did lack speed and power, it wouldn't be capable of doing this:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-582952
I call this one "Kyurem wrecks Finchinator harder than Mega Man wrecks Dedede in Smash"

Offensive Checks:
As I mentioned before, Kyurem lacks speed, and power if it runs a Choice Scarf set. It dosen't enjoy the presence of other faster pokemon like Gapdos, Weavile, Kartana and so on. It is forced to run modest, so its slower than a lot of pokemon, and can make it hard to actually get in and click buttons if the opponent is applying good pressure (pun wasn't intended lol). It has to really have something it enjoys hitting, like Tapu Fini, or Rillaboom, otherwise it can be hard for Kyurem to come in and start throwing out its attacks.

Looking at the 37 OU viable mons, only about 1/3 outspeed Kyurem. Unless you're running a team consisting entirely of mons that outspeed it (which I would consider overcentralizing), it'll wreck you. Also, most of those mons cannot afford to switch in, meaning you have to sac something to allow them to come in. Then you send in your revenge killer, but whoops, the opponent switched Kyurem out. Then what??

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

For me, this is the only reason I care about keeping it in the tier. I just get a weird feeling from the more outlandish arguments being thrown around in the thread (i,e "Blissy only exists to check Kyurem, it beats Scizor w/o freeze, it shouldn't beat heatran" I can't make this stuff up...), that some people have just maybe never played a tier where you have to use a set of specific mons in order to be able to answer the tier's big threats. That sounds unlikely when you have a majority of users finding it broken, but some of these arguments are unexplainable.

Like if it's true and Kyurem is really the most busted thing running around rn, gosh do I get the feeling that some people itt skip on preparing for it.

Now it is probably true that Kyurem is really broken, and I won't be put out one bit if it gets banned, but so far the reasons aren't that convincing. It's like... yes, if you are really good at prediction Kyurem slays the tier. no question. And so do Tapu Lele and I mean tbh Gengar probably slays the tier, or w.e Kyurem does, if you're REALLY good at predicting the fat n slow switch-ins/ your opponent is really unprepared. Get your damage calcs ready for LO gengar bois.

So then we can only be talking about the sub sets, I guess, if we are going to seriously talk about this pokemon. The sub dd set is not good against offense straight up, I don't think anyone really argues otherwise, but I'm sure they will after this post. And the sub roost set is also not amazing against offense (actual offense people, with priorities and momentum/tempo control and everything). So the qualified player list might be seen as being set against a pokemon that threatens the slow n fat and pp stallable and liable to freeze meta (and you understand that the more passive you are the more likely you are to be frozen right? ok just checking. I have to check you now cause ppl have said some pretty outlandish things in this thread). We've turned to slow n fat teams cause there is nothing better in this tier where anyone can bring anything that makes an ounce of sense any game and expect a good shot at winning, or at least a chance thats no worse than if you bring something else. But what if we could have a meta where things actually made sense, and you actually could reasonably predict the most likely things your opponent will bring and prepare a reasonable strategy for all of them with 6 pokemon? This is my only goal for gen 8 ou, and I hope people who are smarter than me will start thinking about how this can come about. Banning kyurem could certainly be a step towards this goal, but only if people are actually on the same page about the problems our metagame has.

I also get that Kyurem pressure stalls slow fat things that we have gotten used to relying on. And I am certainly out of touch, but I mean, if we're banning things cause in PP stall and 10% freeze chance are winning most battles, I find it a bit hard to believe that I'm the only one that lost the plot. There is always going to be a thing that punishes through exploiting low chance secondary affects, and there will always be things that exploit pp. If Kyurem does both these things so well that a majority of good players find it broken, then by all means ban it, but I feel that the reasons and the goals should be clear and shared.

So in summary, the arguments are not all that impressive, at least to me, the vision for the tier is opaque at best if there even is one beyond "do a poll and see what happens next", and if you want to ban this, to be consistent I would expect you all to vote 69(nice)% for a Tapu Lele suspect next. Thats what would reassure me I guess: understanding the vision for the tier and how banning kyurem fits in a larger process to bring this tier into something reasonable to play.

thank you so much for this post, as I said earlier this is why I mentioned specifically stall and weak and fat balance in most post earlier. I do want to reiterate, as someone quoted my post and posted some dance weak mon icicle spear kyu on stall. Not only was that team just not good, that kyu set, while creative, was terrible in my opinion. I even tried the team out 10 times. that kyu only did well vs teams that had multiple 4x weak to ice mons and that was only after I killed 3 mons on the team. which is ridiculous. for most its just bad. Most of you run 3-4 ice weak mons on the same squad so of course ur out here complaining that a mon has a strong ice beam. this is why I said u were being disingenuous. As for any else who wants to respond to me trying to use the appeal of authority fallacy, that is legitimate tyranny and in no way proves legitimacy. Attack the point itself and do not draw legitimacy from authority. that's ridiculous.

Anyway I would like to see responses to this as well as I said in my post and in chat mostly and now Myzozoa : " and if you want to ban this, to be consistent I would expect you all to vote 69(nice)% for a Tapu Lele suspect next. Thats what would reassure me I guess: understanding the vision for the tier and how banning kyurem fits in a larger process to bring this tier into something reasonable to play."
I’m fine with this but I genuinely do not believe this is ur top priority if u want to ban it. FAR more obvious offender breaking way too many precedents on the list and kyu is more of a balance thing with other tapus IMO. But yes lmk as well

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

thank you so much for this post, as I said earlier this is why I mentioned specifically stall and weak and fat balance in most post earlier. I do want to reiterate, as someone quoted my post and posted some dance weak mon icicle spear kyu on stall. Not only was that team just not good, that kyu set, while creative, was terrible in my opinion. I even tried the team out 10 times. that kyu only did well vs teams that had multiple 4x weak to ice mons and that was only after I killed 3 mons on the team. which is ridiculous. for most its just bad. Most of you run 3-4 ice weak mons on the same squad so of course ur out here complaining that a mon has a strong ice beam. this is why I said u were being disingenuous. As for any else who wants to respond to me trying to use the appeal of authority fallacy, that is legitimate tyranny and in no way proves legitimacy. Attack the point itself and do not draw legitimacy from authority. that's ridiculous.

Lets start with

1) I never said this was the BEST kyurem set, this was to show the MANY DIFFERENT sets kyurem can run.. the team is a outdated being made in june 2021, and let me tell you again I NEVER SAID IT WAS A GOOD kyurem set nor did I SAY IT WAS THE BEST, it was an example of how kyurem can customize its sets and spreads to do whatever the fuck it pleases

2) Maybe if you did not one trick a team for so long and actually used different playstyles and used a bigger sample size than 10 games maybe you would be better impressed at what kyurem can customize itself and beat its would be checks.

3) No? Most teams run double steel for kyurem, I have absolutely no idea where the fuck the statement "Most of you run 3-4 ice weak mons on the same squad so of course ur out here complaining that a mon has a strong ice beam. this is why I said u were being disingenuous" WHERE DO YOU FIND THESE TYPES OF TEAMS??? ladder?? maybe ofc you would nitpick 2 random teams you saw on ladder that have 3-4 ice weak pokemon on a team. Maybe on HO but not on any good balance/BO team esp on stall.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-594449 1 ice type weak on both sides

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-578922 2 ice weak pokemon on SS OU HATER side but he has tran, slowbro, and corviknight which checks weavile fairly well

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-579100 2 ice weak pokemon on TPP's side but they have fini, corv and ferro which are more than enough and form the double steel core

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-578887 2 ice weak pokemon on tace and hsa side but they have a shit ton of resists or ways to play around it and both have the double steel core

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-578394 2 ice weak pokemon on raptor side but it is compensated with 2 ice resists and corviknight

still unconvinced? https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scl-i-replays.3690429/ I see plenty of replays for you to potentially nitpick if you do find any come back if they have 3+ ice weak pokemon and if they have 3 ice weak pokemon, they are having double steel for sure. Kyurem definitely forces unhealthy teambuilding strains and just forces like 2 steels or 3+ resists / many pokemon that offensively pressure kyurem

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

This is an aside but can moderators of ou come in and please tell people that me, Omari p, have used a lot of teams. I’m tired of this misunderstanding as it’s just weird. Maybe Storm Zone or Ox the Fox

lastly the dude above me, you’ve shown in here and in discord that you are just unparalledly against me on any reason. Th replays were pretty bad on top. Anyway lets squash this. We are stopping the convo