Metagame np: SS DOU stage 0: Begin Again | Beat Up banned

[AuraRayquaza]

I was also thinking about fullroom today and came up with something quite similar to SMB, its been very epic so far:


https://pokepast.es/65893704cee1ddf7

Indeedee is such incredible support for setting TR. The psychic terrain really shuts down a load of options for dealing with TR and its not even deadweight once you set TR up. I never actually procced the focus sash in my 30 or so games today but I'd rather have it on Indeedee and it be useless than lose both mons t1 because its physical bulk isn't actually that great. I agree that babiri berry is best by far on Hatterene so you can set TR in front of even dragon tail Duraludon. I just never saw one and wanted to OHKO everything. Indeedee Hatterene can just take over games its incredibly hard to stop. I'm still slightly undecided on whether regular or gmax Hatterene is better. Gmax Hatterene is what I used for most of my games and it was super clutch with the confusions sometimes, you also typically don't want to change terrains to lock out Whims/Grimmsnarl from games. However, gmax Grimmsnarls move which makes both mons drowsy can really set you back if you're unable to deal with it, so setting misty terrain might be better. Dusclops is always gonna be fat and sat doing nothing so I decided why not self activate Rhyperiors weakness policy. Its been really good for me I just don't like not having an accurate move and would use earthquake if I could. Dusclops is also that one mon that you can always rely on to set TR late in the game when you've lost some resources. Torkoal is epic. Reuniclus was the last slot for no reason other than its really really strong and is an offensive TR setter, which fits what I wanted in the slot.

The one game I lost in my games today was to gmax Lapras setting veils and then walling me with snarl Mew. I realised that actually TR can't quite muscle through screens and debuffs along with dynamaxing. So I found a (possibly) better 6th slot on the team: Mr Rime. Screen cleaner shuts down lapras' veils 5 turns early (assuming you bring it in after its dynamax turns have ended) which can give you a lot more space to work with in actually koing mons. The set I came up with is probably not great and the mon is reasonably situational but Reuniclus wasn't doing much except be strong and set TR.

Mr Rime

Mr. Rime @ Life Orb
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
- Psychic
- Ice Beam

 

[OrangeFluffy Sheep]

How is dynamaxing in doubles? So much of the discussion centers around singles, so it's hard to get a read on how it works here.

I'm hesitant to really get into 8th gen until the dust settles around such a big mechanic.

 

[Yuichi]

Haven't seen this anywhere so I figured out this might be helpful for newer players trying to get into the format. also trying to avoid doing work but well Yoda2798 is bad
Im just going to cover the more general/common roles since the metagame is still developing atm. If you feel that something is missing feel free to contact me on discord/below so that i can add them in!

DOU Roles Compendium

Offensive

Revenge Killers
Fast Pokemon: (solid) (shaky)
Priority: (solid)
Scarf: (solid) (shaky)
Weather: (solid)

Setup Sweepers
Beat Up: (solid) (shaky)
Bulk Up: (solid) (shaky)
Omniboost: (solid)
Dragon Dance: (shaky)
Calm Mind: (solid) (shaky)

Weather Abusers
Rain: (solid) (shaky)
Sand: (solid)
Sun: (solid) (shaky)

Trick Room Abusers: (solid) (shaky)

Choiced Attackers
Choice Specs: (solid) (shaky)
Choice Band: (solid) (shaky)

Throat Spray: (solid) (shaky)

Pivots:
U-Turn: (solid) (shaky)
Volt Switch: (solid) (shaky)


Utility

Intimidate: (solid) (shaky)

Tailwind Setters: (solid) (shaky)

Trick Room Setters: (solid) (shaky)

Taunt Users: (solid) (shaky)

Fake Out Users: (solid) (shaky)

Weather Setters:
Rain: (solid)
Sand: (solid) (shaky) <--Yoda2798isbad
Sun: (solid)

Status: (solid) (shaky)

Redirection:
Follow Me: (solid) (shaky)
Lightningrod: (solid) (shaky)
Storm Drain: (solid)

Misc.
Bypass Redirection: (solid) (shaky)
Trapping: (solid)
Boosting: (shaky)
Priority Stoppers: (solid)

WIP: DMax users

 

[TheGimmick - Musashi]

I was also thinking about fullroom today and came up with something quite similar to SMB, its been very epic so far:


https://pokepast.es/65893704cee1ddf7

Indeedee is such incredible support for setting TR. The psychic terrain really shuts down a load of options for dealing with TR and its not even deadweight once you set TR up. I never actually procced the focus sash in my 30 or so games today but I'd rather have it on Indeedee and it be useless than lose both mons t1 because its physical bulk isn't actually that great. I agree that babiri berry is best by far on Hatterene so you can set TR in front of even dragon tail Duraludon. I just never saw one and wanted to OHKO everything. Indeedee Hatterene can just take over games its incredibly hard to stop. I'm still slightly undecided on whether regular or gmax Hatterene is better. Gmax Hatterene is what I used for most of my games and it was super clutch with the confusions sometimes, you also typically don't want to change terrains to lock out Whims/Grimmsnarl from games. However, gmax Grimmsnarls move which makes both mons drowsy can really set you back if you're unable to deal with it, so setting misty terrain might be better. Dusclops is always gonna be fat and sat doing nothing so I decided why not self activate Rhyperiors weakness policy. Its been really good for me I just don't like not having an accurate move and would use earthquake if I could. Dusclops is also that one mon that you can always rely on to set TR late in the game when you've lost some resources. Torkoal is epic. Reuniclus was the last slot for no reason other than its really really strong and is an offensive TR setter, which fits what I wanted in the slot.

The one game I lost in my games today was to gmax Lapras setting veils and then walling me with snarl Mew. I realised that actually TR can't quite muscle through screens and debuffs along with dynamaxing. So I found a (possibly) better 6th slot on the team: Mr Rime. Screen cleaner shuts down lapras' veils 5 turns early (assuming you bring it in after its dynamax turns have ended) which can give you a lot more space to work with in actually koing mons. The set I came up with is probably not great and the mon is reasonably situational but Reuniclus wasn't doing much except be strong and set TR.

Mr. Rime

Mr. Rime @ Life Orb
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
- Psychic
- Ice Beam

I branched off from that Indeedee-Hatterene core myself and have been seeing success on the ladder as well (TheGimmick#634).

I currently run GMax Hatterene. I ran into Grimmsnarl-Goth Sleep twice and won by forcing Goth to switch with GMax Hat and then powering through the Yawn effect. Of course, this won't work every time. Instead of going to DMax Hat as a solution, I have been thinking about just throwing Safeguard on Indeedee in place of Reflect. Allows me to keep up Psychic Terrain for Hatterene, Indeedee, and Psychic Fangs for Dracovish (which, has worked very well for dealing with screens and feels great as a play against other TR teams, or teams with slower mons in general).

I normally run Psychic, Follow Me, Helping Hand, and Reflect on Indeedee with the aforementioned thought about changing Reflect to Safeguard to keep from going to DMax Hat. Has Healing Wish been working well for you? Also, I just maxed defense on Indeedee. As I am probably way less familiar with the damage calcs for the current game than people here; what's the reasoning for your EV spread?




As for my own team:

https://pokepast.es/9359017b635f236e

The I've tried both Life Orb and CB on Dracovish, as well as Life Orb and Nature Berry on Hatterene.
Dracovish has been a great median for dealing with different situations and hammers down on TR teams not running Follow Me. I am aware Max Flare from Hatterene can conflict, but it has yet to really bother me. Jellicent has been well for dealing with rain teams and has been a lifesaver against CB Dracovish by being another good switch-in against him. Still, I am not settled with him as a secondary setter.

Currently working around these 4 and trying to settle on 2 other TR attackers (1 phys, 1 special). The other TR attackers I have been trying out right now have been a mix of:

Vest Vikavolt

Vikavolt @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 244 HP / 52 Def / 32 SpA / 180 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Bug Buzz
- Energy Ball
- Volt Switch

Life Orb Copperjah

Copperajah @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Atk / 48 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
- Play Rough
- Power Whip / Protect

Guts Conkeldurr

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Protect

Specs Drampa

Drampa @ Choice Specs
Ability: Cloud Nine / Berserk
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- Hyper Voice
- Heat Wave
- Focus Blast

Bronzong???

Gonna be real, have no idea what I want to do with Bronzong, I guess mainly anti-sandcore.

Bronzong @ Life Orb / Macho Brace
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Slide
- Gyro Ball
- Body Press
- Trick Room

Toxtricity

Toxtricity @ Throat Spray
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Protect
- Sludge Bomb

 

[Mozilla Fennekin]

How is dynamaxing in doubles? So much of the discussion centers around singles, so it's hard to get a read on how it works here.

I'm hesitant to really get into 8th gen until the dust settles around such a big mechanic.

Dynamax is mega ass cancer in Singles, but in Doubles it actually works pretty well tbh. The jury could still be out as to whether or not it's well balanced (Giga Grimmsnarl and his AoE Yawn is fucking dumb imo), but the 2-on-2 format allows one very fun thing: SYNERGY. Max Moves only hit one target, but their secondary buffs/debuffs hit both Pokemon on one side; so let's say you wanna spam Kommo-o's Clanging Scales. You can then pair it with a Max Steel to recoup that defense drop. Just some cool stuff all around. Dnya is obviously strong here, but it's not like in Single where you just nuke something and then your opponent does nothing because he's dead; a lot can happen in one turn in Doubles. Defense and speed control are really popular and help deal with it as well--best thing to happen this gen is speed adjusting mid-turn now.

I dunno who said it or where, but I think it's been said that Pokemon is balanced more for Doubles formats than for Singles. And Dynamax just feels like it was made for Doubles battles where you don't have to I think it's actually a pretty fun mechanic right now, but again who knows how the metagame will sustain it.

 

[Red Pill PUA]

This game is perfectly balanced right now having a lot of fun again.

not even beat up rk9 is that difficult to deal with. I was calling for a ban but now ill vote no ban if that suspect happens.

please dont ruin this game like you ruined sun and moon with premature banning before all the mons were released.

let everything get released first and settle before you start the bans.

 

[Siria]

I was just thinking that GalarZing may be good partner for Dracovish. What´s this fossils most powerfull attack? Fishious Rend. At the right circumestances so powerfull that even mons that resist gets hefty damage. So, what are the answers? Abilities like Storm Drain or Water Absorb. And who neutralizes all abilities? GalarZing. So you can spam Choiced water attack without fear. Next answer against Dracovish is priority status, namely burn and paralysis (looking at you, Grimmsnarl, and yes, snarl all you want, you know it´s true!). What is GalarZings other ability? Misty surge, which has that handy-dandy effect of blocking statuses. You can choose whatever ability helps your team more.

 

[Project_Mars]

Dynamax is mega ass cancer in Singles, but in Doubles it actually works pretty well tbh. The jury could still be out as to whether or not it's well balanced (Giga Grimmsnarl and his AoE Yawn is fucking dumb imo), but the 2-on-2 format allows one very fun thing: SYNERGY. Max Moves only hit one target, but their secondary buffs/debuffs hit both Pokemon on one side; so let's say you wanna spam Kommo-o's Clanging Scales. You can then pair it with a Max Steel to recoup that defense drop. Just some cool stuff all around. Dnya is obviously strong here, but it's not like in Single where you just nuke something and then your opponent does nothing because he's dead; a lot can happen in one turn in Doubles. Defense and speed control are really popular and help deal with it as well--best thing to happen this gen is speed adjusting mid-turn now.

I dunno who said it or where, but I think it's been said that Pokemon is balanced more for Doubles formats than for Singles. And Dynamax just feels like it was made for Doubles battles where you don't have to I think it's actually a pretty fun mechanic right now, but again who knows how the metagame will sustain it.

Good news for you then: Gmax Grimmsnarl’s Yawn effect is target only and isn’t even a 100% chance to apply Yawn apparently.

I was just thinking that GalarZing may be good partner for Dracovish. What´s this fossils most powerfull attack? Fishious Rend. At the right circumestances so powerfull that even mons that resist gets hefty damage. So, what are the answers? Abilities like Storm Drain or Water Absorb. And who neutralizes all abilities? GalarZing. So you can spam Choiced water attack without fear. Next answer against Dracovish is priority status, namely burn and paralysis (looking at you, Grimmsnarl, and yes, snarl all you want, you know it´s true!). What is GalarZings other ability? Misty surge, which has that handy-dandy effect of blocking statuses. You can choose whatever ability helps your team more.

Neutralizing Gas does stop Strong Jaws too though, so you are missing out on a chunk of power, so I think it has that going against that ability. Misty Surge would be a neat Idea too though, and GWeezing isn’t the worst thing.

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

One thing I noticed is Orbeetle's G-Max move can summon Gravity. Despite that, the validator will allow G-Max Orbeetle with anyone that has sleep moves below 100% accuracy when Gravity+Sleep ban is in effect on Gravity. Considering that Dynamax only lasted for 3 turns, I'm not sure if that should be taken any action yet, but it's worth discussing it.

huge images

 

[Zé Capáu]

Cursola seems to be a good partner for GMax Copperajah due to Perish Body forcing everyone out after G-rajah sets up the Stell-type SR with its GMax move. Still questionable if this combo is efficient enough in DOU, tho.

 

[Commander Beta]

One thing I noticed is Orbeetle's G-Max move can summon Gravity. Despite that, the validator will allow G-Max Orbeetle with anyone that has sleep moves below 100% accuracy when Gravity+Sleep ban is in effect on Gravity. Considering that Dynamax only lasted for 3 turns, I'm not sure if that should be taken any action yet, but it's worth discussing it.

huge images

View attachment 209684
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You are probably better off using Gmax-Grimsnarl pretty much always anyway, or Gmax-Butterfree if you absolutely can't wait one turn to put opponents to sleep.

 

[TrueArchery]

I'm not quite sure whether this is the appropriate place as I have a question about VGC, however I suppose it's about DOU aswell so here I go:

What to pick against trickroom teams? I thought about putting TR on a fast mon myself (maybe prankster whimsicott?) that can put in some work apart from that. Due to the dynamic speed calculations mid-turn I figure this would be super hilarious and likely very unexpected because of what's popular on it right now (tailwind + beat up). Other ideas?

 

[Commander Beta]

I'm not quite sure whether this is the appropriate place as I have a question about VGC, however I suppose it's about DOU aswell so here I go:

What to pick against trickroom teams? I thought about putting TR on a fast mon myself (maybe prankster whimsicott?) that can put in some work apart from that. Due to the dynamic speed calculations mid-turn I figure this would be super hilarious and likely very unexpected because of what's popular on it right now (tailwind + beat up). Other ideas?

That's really what everybody is trying to find out, I managed to find a combo of surf Peliper and life orb surf Ludicolo that is able to take out the normal hatterene + indeede-F trick room combo, however it is easily exploitable by any pokemons other than them. Thus the normal answer has been to join them, until more reliable strategies are found were destined to a trick room Nash equilibrium. In lamer terms, since the best counter to trick room right now is another trick room, no player shall obtain an advantage by doing anything other than tr.
To spice this up I'll tell you all a secret, on certain tr exploiting pokemon I lower their level to 99 so as to make them slower than the enemies ones and thus forego rng about who will strike first, albeit not as useful as it had been to me on gen 7 DOU, it is still worth it in my opinion as you barely lose anything, especially on Torkoal, who can safely use eruption without fear of losing HP and weaken that of your enemy.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

I'm not quite sure whether this is the appropriate place as I have a question about VGC, however I suppose it's about DOU aswell so here I go:

What to pick against trickroom teams? I thought about putting TR on a fast mon myself (maybe prankster whimsicott?) that can put in some work apart from that. Due to the dynamic speed calculations mid-turn I figure this would be super hilarious and likely very unexpected because of what's popular on it right now (tailwind + beat up). Other ideas?

ok so I've laddered a lot with TR recently and there have been some good checks to it that I've seen. The first thing to note is that Indeedee-F is one of the strongest supports for setting TR and so any moves that are single target (with a couple of exceptions which I'll go into) won't reliably stop TR being set. This is fine though because there are still options!

1) Duraludon (and Barraskewda): Duraludons Stalwart ability lets it bypass any redirection moves (including Ally Switch) and hit its intended target. This can be huge for stopping TR because a flash cannon/steel beam can put a massive dent in Hatterene, while dragon tail can phaze out any non-fairy type TR setters like Dusclops. Dynamaxing can block fake out should the opp not lead with Indeedee. You just have to be careful of not being caught out by a babiri berry on Hatterene, but a simple spread move like rock slide should clean up the remaining damage. Barraskewda can do the same thing with its propeller tail ability and poison jab, but you may struggle to find the KO on some sturdier setters without some phazing tool.

2) Strong spread moves: Another great way to get past the redirection is just to throw out some very strong turn 1 spread moves. Examples are: specs Sylveons hyper voice, rain boosted muddy waters from Ludicolo, Excadrill and Tyranitar rock slides (which together have a very nice 51% chance to flinch the setter and deny TR). These can be paired with Duraludon, or can be used in some combination of each other to pressure the TR setter and Indeedee at the same time. However, if not paired with it, fat pokemon can live both attacks (given spread reduction) and still set up TR.

3) Just being fatter: My personal favourite way to deal with TR is to just be fat enough to live all the hits during the next 4 turns. Bulky Arcanine with snarl and Grimmsnarl with light screen can do this well, while max quake/max steelspike give defensive buffs that lessen the impact of letting TR go up. Then once TR ends you can apply the pressure again, having weakened their resources. Grimmsnarl deserves another mention because its gmax snooze can really slow down TR teams momentum by yawning both mons, though this doesn't work correctly on PS and so won't be as reliable in the future.

 

[Sharqi]

One thing I noticed is Orbeetle's G-Max move can summon Gravity. Despite that, the validator will allow G-Max Orbeetle with anyone that has sleep moves below 100% accuracy when Gravity+Sleep ban is in effect on Gravity. Considering that Dynamax only lasted for 3 turns, I'm not sure if that should be taken any action yet, but it's worth discussing it.

huge images

View attachment 209684
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Well this might be a good time to get rid of this silly rule altogether.

 

[uberlegen]

My favorite way to deal with Indeedee/Hatterene is Dragapult Helping Hand + Gigalith Choice Band Explosion lol

I'm having fewer problems with Trick Room and more with Beat Up Lucario. How do people typically handle that? I run Tailwind Whimsicott core.

 

[DDRMaster]

I've been using Gastrodon mainly to counter Rain, but it's been able to survive pretty much everything that's not a Grass attack.

Gastrodon-East (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 216 HP / 212 Def / 80 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Earth Power
- Scald
- Clear Smog
- Recover

Storm Drain is obviously to redirect Fishious Rend, and Gastrodon is bulky enough to not be 2HKO'd by anything else Dracovish has. Clear Smog removes the boosts on anything that's not a Steel-type, which often ends up being Defensive boosts on things that the rest of my team can't kill.

The EVs put HP one higher than a number divisible by 16 and get the first bonus point in SpDef after making it higher than Def. There's probably some specific spread that can do better.

Besides redirecting Water moves aimed at my other Pokemon, I usually use Gastrodon to stall out Dynamax and clear boosts they likely set up. The Burn from Scald means I can usually stall out Bulk Up Corviknight, so not being able to clear its boosts hasn't been an issue.

 

[TrueArchery]

My favorite way to deal with Indeedee/Hatterene is Dragapult Helping Hand + Gigalith Choice Band Explosion lol

I'm having fewer problems with Trick Room and more with Beat Up Lucario. How do people typically handle that? I run Tailwind Whimsicott core.

Redirecting moves. Status. You can also just hit it hard, example:
252+ Atk Excadrill Helping Hand Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Lucario: 277-327 (98.5 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Commander Beta]

I'm trying to build a team around Gmax-Curselax, does anybody know which attack transforms into the Gmax recycle?, because it isn't recycle as you would believe, at least that is what my testing reveals anyway. If it is a bug, please let me know so I can post the problem on the bug report.

 

[miltankmilk]

I'm trying to build a team around Gmax-Curselax, does anybody know which attack transforms into the Gmax recycle?, because it isn't recycle as you would believe, at least that is what my testing reveals anyway. If it is a bug, please let me know so I can post the problem on the bug report.

Its any normal type attack, it turns Max Strike into its sig move

 

[Siria]

I'm trying to build a team around Gmax-Curselax, does anybody know which attack transforms into the Gmax recycle?, because it isn't recycle as you would believe, at least that is what my testing reveals anyway. If it is a bug, please let me know so I can post the problem on the bug report.

How do you get G-max Curselax? Curse is egg move and you can´t breed for G-max trait, right?

 

[Commander Beta]

How do you get G-max Curselax? Curse is egg move and you can´t breed for G-max trait, right?

You'd probably have to use a move tutor for that, as far as I know they are able to teach pokemon any move that they can learn, at least on previous games they did.

 

[MajorBowman]

Egg moves can transfer between parents in the day care now, so that's why Curse Gigantamax Snorlax is legal

 

[Siria]

Oh, thanks, didn´t think about that. :-)

 

[sagaciousslowpoke]

So I tried to make a set for Corviknight in doubels (Smogon doubles / VGC) and I was curious what you guys think of it.

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 92 DEF / 164 Speed
Nature
-Tailwind
-Body Press
-Roost/Taunt
-Brave Bird

The EV spread allows Corviknight to out speed bulky support Rotom-Wash by two points this means you will even out speed bulky sets that try to speed creep. The rest of the IV’s i put into HP because Brave Bird is really spammable and defense to make Body Press hit a little bit harder.