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Metagame np: SS DOU stage 0: Begin Again | Beat Up banned

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Ezrael said:
Regardless of what Ladder Players™️ think, SPL is the most important tournament on Smogon. PS ladder is important, yes, but tournament integrity of SPL for the next month is of utmost importance. SPL wouldn't be the best tournament if, halfway through, the metagame became completely uncompetitive for 2 weeks just so ladder players can have their fun (especially since their fun is merely delayed). Note that this is Smogon, not PS!, so decisions should be made in the interests of Smogon, which involves to a very large degree promoting SPL as a worthwhile tournament to participate in and take seriously.

With that said, if Everyone On The Ladder™️ disagreed with me, I would be open to changing my mind, but as it stands,Red Pill PUA merely says that he stands for Everyone On The Ladder™️, and I have no reason to believe his opinion.

With regards to having the ladder meta and spl meta be different--I am indifferent to this suggestion, but it is my belief that the meta should be the same for ladder and tournaments so anyone who wants to play in a tournament can practice on ladder. That would mean that I think the rules should be the same for SSnls, SPL, and the ladder.

Finally, I think that once SPL is done, or at least on to top 4, we just drop all the quickbanned mons that were not quickbanned in previous generations (rachi, marsh, Kyub, beat up, whatever) and run suspect tests on them then. Saying 'fuck SPL' so Red Pill PUA can play 2 games a week with Jirachi for 3 more weeks seems very silly to me.

P.S.: ban beat up, I really don't wanna find out that it's broken halfway through my game next week
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Yeah, no. The entirety of this post is fallacious at the absolute best, blatant stupidity at the absolute worst. See Administrative decisions post here where the pre home meta will only be around for SPL week 6, afterwards every subsequent week will be played with the home meta. I don't see why DOU gets a pass when literally every other metagame that has to deal with home, whether that be Ubers, OU, etc and has to deal with these changes.

Is there any denial that these mons might be broken? Maybe, maybe not. But banning stuff for the sake of keeping things from shaking up SPL is clearly not what the TD's want and I'm sure that how the TD's view home dropping in the middle of SPL matters far more than what some random user has to say .-.
 
Haruno said:
Yeah, no. The entirety of this post is fallacious at the absolute best, blatant stupidity at the absolute worst. See Administrative decisions post here where the pre home meta will only be around for SPL week 6, afterwards every subsequent week will be played with the home meta. I don't see why DOU gets a pass when literally every other metagame that has to deal with home, whether that be Ubers, OU, etc and has to deal with these changes.

Is there any denial that these mons might be broken? Maybe, maybe not. But banning stuff for the sake of keeping things from shaking up SPL is clearly not what the TD's want and I'm sure that how the TD's view home dropping in the middle of SPL matters far more than what some random user has to say .-.
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He's 5-0 in SPL mate he's the furthest thing from random there can be

You use strong words ("blatant stupidity") but your only argument is that you're interpeting a single post in admin decisions to mean "we would prefer tiers not to ban things", which really isn't even what the post says. The post just communicates that, as is typical for any new releases, they will only be allowed starting from next week - absolutely nothing in that post actually suggests how the SS tiers should handle themselves now that Home's been released.

DOU doesn't even "get a pass while everyone else has to deal with Home", this discussion is literally DOU dealing with Home. Pretty much everything in your post is misinterpreting the facts (whether by accident or by malice I do not know). The notion that the TDs want us not to quickban things after a massive amount of changes is something you pulled entirely out of thin air, we are absolutely free to quickban things and address issues as we see them.
 
Amaranth said:
He's 5-0 in SPL mate he's the furthest thing from random there can be

You use strong words ("blatant stupidity") but your only argument is that you're interpeting a single post in admin decisions to mean "we would prefer tiers not to ban things", which really isn't even what the post says. The post just communicates that, as is typical for any new releases, they will only be allowed starting from next week - absolutely nothing in that post actually suggests how the SS tiers should handle themselves now that Home's been released.

DOU doesn't even "get a pass while everyone else has to deal with Home", this discussion is literally DOU dealing with Home. Pretty much everything in your post is misinterpreting the facts (whether by accident or by malice I do not know). The notion that the TDs want us not to quickban things after a massive amount of changes is something you pulled entirely out of thin air, we are absolutely free to quickban things and address issues as we see them.
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Shit, guess he wants to keep the meta the way it is so he can go 9-0 instead of having to adapt for home. My b, carry on. I'm sure people have voted to no/ban things based on if it actually helped them in tournament.

His literal argument is, "preserve things for SPL!!!!!" instead of actually discussing if it'll benefit the tier nor about how broken something is or whatnot which is definitely different than how tiering should be done. yw
 
Haruno said:
Shit, guess he wants to keep the meta the way it is so he can go 9-0 instead of having to adapt for home. My b, carry on. I'm sure people have voted to no/ban things based on if it actually helped them in tournament.

His literal argument is, "preserve things for SPL!!!!!" instead of actually discussing if it'll benefit the tier nor about how broken something is or whatnot which is definitely different than how tiering should be done. yw
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You're speaking as if he's pushing to stay on a pre-home metagame lmfao. Did you even read his post? He's saying ban the potential outliers and take no risks with these potentially broken new releases, he's fine with Zeraora and all the other chill things that are being introduced. Once again you're absolutely inventing things to support your arguments - first you made up a policy reason not to touch things, now you're attacking people who want to touch things based on things they haven't said.

Post again when you're done being "fallacious" and "blatantly stupid", thanks
 
Amaranth said:
You're speaking as if he's pushing to stay on a pre-home metagame lmfao. Did you even read his post? He's saying ban the potential outliers and take no risks with these potentially broken new releases, he's fine with Zeraora and all the other chill things that are being introduced. Once again you're absolutely inventing things to support your arguments - first you made up a policy reason not to touch things, now you're attacking people who want to touch things based on things they haven't said.

Post again when you're done being "fallacious" and "blatantly stupid", thanks
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The most precedence you can use is if a mon was banned last gen, aka marsh/jirachi but seeing as how the council hasn't directly addressed that, safe to assume they're not using that as their reasoning. When has DOU in particular ever done the whole premature unbans on mons (lol hypnograv) realize it was an unnecessary premature ban and then retest? Not likely to happen if it even has. There's a reason why this isn't done since it sets a very bad precedent for the future.

Preserving the meta means jack shit though as far as a tour is concerned, especially in regards to SPL at least. You expect the best players to be able to adapt to w/e new changes are done to the meta. But yknow, gotta take no risks.
 
Haruno said:
The most precedence you can use is if a mon was banned last gen, aka marsh/jirachi but seeing as how the council hasn't directly addressed that, safe to assume they're not using that as their reasoning. When has DOU in particular ever done the whole premature unbans on mons (lol hypnograv) realize it was an unnecessary premature ban and then retest? Not likely to happen if it even has. There's a reason why this isn't done since it sets a very bad precedent for the future.

Preserving the meta means jack shit though as far as a tour is concerned, especially in regards to SPL at least. You expect the best players to be able to adapt to w/e new changes are done to the meta. But yknow, gotta take no risks.
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No, no, no, lies and inventions once again.

There is basically no precedent for this stuff. Never ever in the history of Smogon (to my knowledge) we've had so many massive releases, at the same time, during an important tournament. There's a reason we try to schedule tournaments around releases, it's because we need time to process large changes in our tiering. Now for the first time in history we don't have that time and we need to decide how we want to approach this. There is no precedent. We can do whatever we think is best.

The best players could adapt to having Mega Rayquaza freed but it would be incredibly fucking stupid. Just because a meta is playable doesn't mean it's healthy and competitive. Bad argument, misses the point of tiering as a whole.
 
Haruno said:
The most precedence you can use is if a mon was banned last gen, aka marsh/jirachi but seeing as how the council hasn't directly addressed that, safe to assume they're not using that as their reasoning. When has DOU in particular ever done the whole premature unbans on mons (lol hypnograv) realize it was an unnecessary premature ban and then retest? Not likely to happen if it even has. There's a reason why this isn't done since it sets a very bad precedent for the future.

Preserving the meta means jack shit though as far as a tour is concerned, especially in regards to SPL at least. You expect the best players to be able to adapt to w/e new changes are done to the meta. But yknow, gotta take no risks.
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There is precedent for Pokemon that don't fit the "objective" uber standard (670+ BST) to be quick-banned without prior testing in historic Smogon policy. This happened with Blaziken, Mega Gengar and Mega Lucario in generation 7 OU, for instance, and afaik it has happened with Shaymin-S+Darkrai in all of generation 5-7 OU too.

If prominent players feel that it will likely be a problematic element, I don't see how it would be unreasonable to quick ban it—especially given that the SwSh DLC is fundamentally different to anything this site has dealt with in the past (we have never been subjected to two waves of new Pokemon in the space of one new generation).

As such, I feel the correct decision is to quick-ban likely problem children (Jirachi, Marshadow, and arguably Kyu-B), retest them throughout this phase of the limited metagame, and only return to traditional no-holds-barred tiering once we know that no more large "batches" of Pokemon are going to be added.
 
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Some quick thoughts while I'm thinking about them

  • DLC really throws a huge wrench in any "precedent" arguments, sure Gen 7 had megas dropping periodically but missing huge, metagame defining pokemon for prolonges periods like this hasn't really happened before to my knowledge so I think it's best to approach this as a new issue entirely.
  • As for quickbans, I think they're absolutely warranted, this generation to this point has the lowest power creep I've seen and some of these mons (Jirachi, Marshadow to name a couple) have been too problematic for metagames with far more tools around to manage them.
  • In a similar vein though, I think anything deemed broken in this pre-DLC phase of SWSH DOU should be revisited and probably freed when the rest of the DLC pokemon drop. Tiering this gen is absolutely going to be a headache, but from the looks of it we're getting huge swathes of new Pokemon constantly and it would be best to revisit the entirety of the metagame as fresh and new each time.
  • On the topic of SPL, we again, to my knowledge, don't really have this precedent outside of Incineroar dropping in playoffs of SPL 9, but thats way less meaningful than what we have now. I don't think DOU's tiering should be treated any different than OU on this matter, and it appears that they're going ahead with the changes. In addition, lower tiers have to dea with changes throughout their major tours every gen. It'll be tough to adapt to the new meta, absolutely, but I'd like to think it's a good test of player skill at the highest level to be able to succeed given the circumstances here. Definitely don't think we should preserve the pre-home meta for any reason.
  • Bit unrelated but I want it out there, can we please reinstate Moody Clause when we get Smeargle back :psyduck:
 
Alrighty~

The following Pokemon are banned because...duh
  • Mewtwo
  • Reshiram
  • Zekrom
  • Kyurem-W
  • Solgaleo
  • Lunala
  • Necrozma-Dawn Wings
  • Necrozma-Dusk Mane
For a non-pedantic explanation, these Pokemon have never been and will never be legal in DOU given their wild base stat totals and access to crazy moves/abilities/etc. Classic cover legend treatment.

Some of the Pokemon reintroduced to DOU with the release of Home have a bit more checkered pasts, spending some time legal and some time banned throughout their lifetimes. Jirachi and Marshadow are the key offenders here, both of which have seen their fair share of drama throughout DOU history. A familiar face that had not before been placed behind bars is Kyurem-B, who gained access to three phenomenal new moves this generation in the form of Dragon Dance, Icicle Spear, and Freeze-Dry. It's quite reasonable to conclude that Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear in particular would push Kyurem-B over the line from really good to "ok this is probably an issue."

As such, the council decided to vote on the fates of Jirachi, Marshadow, and Kyurem-B. This was treated as a vote to unban, meaning that a majority of 4/7 votes was needed in order for these Pokemon to remain in DOU. Argue the validity of that all you want because it ultimately matters not; the results are as follows:
pLnR0FD.png
This means that Jirachi, Kyurem-B, and Marshadow are all banned from DOU.

Everything else released with Pokemon Home (including all of the Pokemon listed in this wonderful post by DaWoblefet and all of the oldgen-exclusive moves/abilities/etc) are now legal.

For clarification, this really has nothing to do with the fact that SPL is currently happening. The council's goal isn't to curate the metagame to the satisfaction of either "tournament players" or "ladder players," we just want to keep the metagame as healthy and competitive as possible at all times.

This is new territory, so bear with us. We haven't yet discussed our plan of action once the DLCs start to drop and more Pokemon are introduced into the metagame; the idea of releasing banned Pokemon with the release of the DLCs is certainly an option, but we aren't committing to anything yet. For now, this is the only action we'll be taking. Once SPL concludes and we've had a good chance to see what the metagame looks like, we'll reenter the typical suspect test framework, as mentioned in the HypnoGrav reban post.
 
I know it will take more time (SPL and ssnl matches) to see how Melmetal plays out in this meta, but I can't be the only one thinking it might be suspect worthy, right?

Its stat distribution is extremely min/maxed compared to your average BST 600 Pokemon, and its already high defenses are further augmented by the fact that mono-Steel typing is one of the best defensive typings in the game. It's basically a Mega Metagross that trades off speed for a free item slot, and if you use it as a TR attacker, it's also basically a hyper offensive Jirachi firing off STABs with a ~51% flinch rate.

Incineroar is everywhere, and Melmetal admittedly becomes more manageable at -1. Still, Melmetal is just really fat and hard to take down, and when its dynamaxed it can pretty much shrug off any super-effective hit that isn't a strong special Fire-type attack.

This isn't all to say I'm 100% anti-Melmetal at this point, and I recognize that we may not want to shake things up too much with DLC additions looming in the near future (e.g. Landorus) but I think it's at least worth talking about this.
 
GenOne said:
Incineroar is everywhere, and Melmetal admittedly becomes more manageable at -1.
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lmao my ass off, exactly correct. And Arcinine too. Melmetal should be the fourth thing we think of suspecting with number 1 being:

  1. Beat Up: this shit is uncompetitive due to the fact that super viable tier 1 mons are also great beat up abusers ( Dpault and Whims). Add on to that fact that your beat up terrak and arcanine is also gonna Max 99% of the time, you cannot fake out to slow down the momentum. A poor mans gimmick in gen6 and 7 is now a stupidly broken and cheap strategy that should be banned

  2. Jirachi and Kyurem-B: We banned these things on release. They deserve to be tested out thoroughly in a proper suspect given how much has changed in the new gen. Theory mon'ing is frowned upon when deciding weather to ban or not, lets see if they are really broken or not.
    IMO, maybe, jirachi is really passive and probably dies to a bunch of stuff; while Kyurem-B is a better Kyurem-regular who has turn out to be pretty mediocre so far in early testing.

  3. Swagger: idk why we unbanned this in the first place, 99.99% of times it is used is to roll for a hax on your opponent. Same as gen6 and gen7, the ban should have stayed in place and been suspected first, if it was to be unbanned.
 
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+1 to "Beat Up is uncompetitive". In previous gens it was annoying but there was decent counterplay in Fake Out / multiple viable Follow Me users, multiple viable Wide Guard users to stop Rock Slide and such, plenty of speed control, etc.

Now, most of those counterplays are heavily nerfed or not existent in the metagame. Dynamax allows you to avoid the flinch from Fake Out and prevent phazing from Roar. It also doubles your HP and puts even more stress on a team since you can't easily chip down a Dynamaxed Pokemon. The main abuser, Terrakion, outspeeds pretty much the entire metagame naturally bar Dragapult / Zeraora and neither can OHKO a Dmax'd Terrak without help. Follow Me options are heavily limited and the best ones are weak to Terrakion. Speed control options are very limited and even if you do stuff like Prankster Thunder Wave / Tailwind, you still run into the issue that again, dynamax Terrakion is incredibly hard to OHKO. This isn't even getting into other underexplored options like Cobalion (trading power for Defense boosts) / Arcanine (ridiculous coverage).

I could ramble on but the main point is that Dynamax + Beat Up is an uncompetitive combination and dealing with it like we dealt with it in past gens is not a viable option.
 
In all honesty, the first thing I would like to see being suspect tested in DOU is Shadow Tag. In addition to Gothitelle denying the opponent from switching Pokemon with it in previous generations, the line now gets Fake Out which allows Gothitelle to give further momentum to its partner, and a better fit to teams than before. While Dragapult was a good check to Gothitelle as being part Ghost-type makes it immune to trapping and deals super effective damage against it, things will change with the release of team player cat. Banning Gothitelle alone would solve nothing as its pre-evolutions could easily fulfill the gap as evidenced by players start using Gothorita as an alternative to or pairing with it in Gen 8. So I believe it's best to suspect test the ability rather than the Pokemon.

Edit 2/20: I decided to include some replays for demonstration:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1064512058 (showcasing gothorita being paired with (competitive) gothitelle)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-476094
 
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I feel like a lot of people are calling for bans because they can't adapt to a changing meta.

home mons haven't even been out a week and people are acting like they can see the future. Something you feel is op right now might not be in a couple months. Stop with this whiteboard Pokemon theory crafting.

Give the meta more then a day before you judge something just because you are inadequate and refuse to change.

I would like to run only full trick room teams but right now in this current meta I don't feel its good enough, So instead of beating my head against the wall trying to force it to work I have adapted and changed my play style. Don't see me crying because I lost to a beat up team. My team now shits all over beat up teams. i'm top 5 right now with it at 1800+ elo.

Nobody would be more happy than me if beat up, melmetel, shadow tag got banned I could go back to my old play style. Im not selfish though, just because I don't like something does't mean its op and needs to get banned not even incineroar right now at least.

Before home was released you could argue that hatt-indee core trick room was op, now not so much.
 
Red Pill PUA said:
I feel like a lot of people are calling for bans because they can't adapt to a changing meta.

home mons haven't even been out a week and people are acting like they can see the future. Something you feel is op right now might not be in a couple months. Stop with this whiteboard Pokemon theory crafting.

Give the meta more then a day before you judge something just because you are inadequate and refuse to change.

I would like to run only full trick room teams but right now in this current meta I don't feel its good enough, So instead of beating my head against the wall trying to force it to work I have adapted and changed my play style. Don't see me crying because I lost to a beat up team. My team now shits all over beat up teams. i'm top 5 right now with it at 1800+ elo.

Nobody would be more happy than me if beat up, melmetel, shadow tag got banned I could go back to my old play style. Im not selfish though, just because I don't like something does't mean its op and needs to get banned not even incineroar right now at least.

Before home was released you could argue that hatt-indee core trick room was op, now not so much.
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If you're referring to my post about Melmetal, I was upfront in saying that more time was needed before we know for sure if it's suspect worthy or just a good mon. (That was the first line in my post.)

If you're referring to any of the comments below about:
  • Beat Up
  • Swagger, or
  • Shadow Tag
These were all (subjectively) contentious issues even before Pokemon Home dropped. People have been talking about Beat Up since the start of SwSh, and Swagger and Shadow Tag have been talked about since previous generations.

Either way, nobody here is saying they're not willing to adapt to a changing meta.
 
I wouldn't quickban Beat Up btw, if things got banned for being too cheesy and requiring 0 skill, fullrooom also should have gotten banned when they turned from a checkmater meme strat that preys on players who lack fundamentals in Gen 6 into a full fledged legitimate (but brainless & cheesy ladder staple for people who overestimate their creativity and skill) archetype in Gen 7.

If something were to be done, i would say ban Terrakion, the only (debatably) problematic Beat Up recipient. Not saying that Terrakion needs to be banned either, but it would simply be something that warrants a full suspect and it would be the route I take.

It would be great if people could stay away from claiming something without backing up their argument with facts and logic. If the only defense of your position is anecdotal bias and personal attacks, maybe you haven't got anything better to say and should maybe shut up.
 
Maybe a more controversial take on the beat up issue but lets try anyway: Beat up isn’t the issue, Dynamax is.

in my view dynamax amplifies some of the bigger issues in the current meta: shadow tag and beat up. Dynamax has very little counterplay because of being immune to fake out and the immense bulk you gain, and this is exacerbated by trapping. Look at durant for example; durant is not a good pokemon but it is exceptional at picking off bulky mons in one hit with gothitelle support. goth family is probably an issue on its own, but I think if you watch a few of Stax’s SPL games you can see how to abuse dynamax and goth.

Dynamax breaks beat up in a similar way. Removing the ability to fake out a beat up abusing mon and doubling its HP is a recipe for disaster. I’ll yield to other points in the thread for why beat up is bad, but i think it becomes manageable without dynamax.
 
Red Pill PUA said:
I feel like a lot of people are calling for bans because they can't adapt to a changing meta.

home mons haven't even been out a week and people are acting like they can see the future. Something you feel is op right now might not be in a couple months. Stop with this whiteboard Pokemon theory crafting.

Give the meta more then a day before you judge something just because you are inadequate and refuse to change.

I would like to run only full trick room teams but right now in this current meta I don't feel its good enough, So instead of beating my head against the wall trying to force it to work I have adapted and changed my play style. Don't see me crying because I lost to a beat up team. My team now shits all over beat up teams. i'm top 5 right now with it at 1800+ elo.

Nobody would be more happy than me if beat up, melmetel, shadow tag got banned I could go back to my old play style. Im not selfish though, just because I don't like something does't mean its op and needs to get banned not even incineroar right now at least.

Before home was released you could argue that hatt-indee core trick room was op, now not so much.
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I'm really confused by this post. First you state that people aren't willing to/can't adapt to the changes and are instead calling for suspect, then you talk about a team (I'm assuming the result of your adaptations) that literally has 3 of the things that have been brought up as potential suspects in beat up, shadow tag and melmetal.
This is the team, for reference:
Screenshot (51).png
Stating that these things are not op and then proceeding to brag about the result you achieved by using them feels a bit contradictory to me. Do you think we should all start running stuff that we consider too much for the tier to handle in order to be able to "shit all over the beat up teams"? Because I don't think that's a sign of a healthy metagame to me.

As for my opinion on the things that have been brought up so far, I would be very happy to see beat up suspected, I think tennisace did a great job at explaining what makes it uncompetitive this gen in particular, whereas I don't feel shadow tag is as problematic just yet, although having Incineroar around might push it over the edge. I also agree that melmetal might warrant a suspect later on, but right now I think neither it nor its potential counterplay have been fully explored.
 
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Red Pill PUA

It can't imagine that it feels good to read some of the comments you get on forums and the PS chatroom. I guess you probably feel like the community is ganging up on you, so I'm here to extend an olive branch.

I'm sure you meant well at first. You start out trying to defend a game you love, maybe with a bit too much zeal, and suddenly everyone is against you. You have to get a little mean because no one seems to be listening to your opinions or respect them, and when they do listen it seems like they only want to hate on you. You've found yourself in a loop where you have to lash out because everyones targeting you, which of course only causes them to target you more. Hate to see it.

As someone who's ridden the highs and lows of smogon doubles, I've got a lot of sympathy for your plight. It does not feel like so long ago that I was wearing down my laptop keys to dust and my fingers to the bone defending mega salamence in gen 6 (not broken btw). It doesn't always seem fair that "council members" who you've never spoken to or see on the ladder get to make the rules. After all, you probably play more games than them, and besides, you're not even professing to know more than them, you just want the new mons given a chance. The problem others have with you has nothing to do with these metagame views, they just don't like being insulted. I'm reaching out to 1) give you a chance to apologize and reset your smogon presence, and 2) to give you some GrandpaCole advice:

This isn't worth fighting over.

Even if you hit the highest heights of this game which I'm sure you aspire to, one day you're going to wake up and wonder why you put so much sweat equity into full contact forum fighting. You started playing this game for fun, so take a break when it's anything but that. Like I said, I can't imagine this has been fun for you.

The best thing you can do now is to apologize, take a deep breath, and drop it. People know how you feel, and now you get to let them digest your opinions and reply. You can take the time to hear the opposing view from people who may be just as passionate as you are, and if you disagree and want to refute them that's cool. This site runs on people posting, but don't let your emotions run high, and whatever you do, don't tell anyone they suck. Honestly, being bad at the game is underrated, I have way more fun being bad at this game than I ever did trying to be good.

It may come as a surprise, but some of the people you're arguing with can actually be pretty cool most of the time. I'm sure if you apologized for insulting them, they would reciprocate and everything would be forgiven. I for one would welcome another person to the discord chat who wanted to talk about mons instead of "gamn" and "mish". Smogon might run on posting, but the DOU forum runs on people who give a shit and want to have some fun and win some games. I think if you came at this issue (and future drops, remember there is a long road ahead when it comes to gen 8 pokemon released) with a bit of moderation, you would find out that you fit in more than you'd expect, you'd make some friends, and you'd get some respect + skill along the way.

If you ever want to run a post by me first or just want to chat, my inbox is always open.
 
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