Thanks for the quick votes. Mimikyu is officially unbanned from UU!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...stage-10-4-voting.3652762/page-3#post-8192909
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...stage-10-4-voting.3652762/page-3#post-8192909
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Metagame np: SM UU Stage 10.4 - Devil in a New Dress (Mimikyu Test)
- Thread starter Pearl
- Start date
- Status
I’m excited that we have a new edition to the tier. I’ve been feeling that the tier is a little stale right now and it’s nice to have another Pokémon to mess around with.
With the Mimikyu vote decided, I’m wondering what the last months of SM UU hold. I’ve been busy and haven’t been paying attention so I’m not sure if any of this has been discussed. Has council decided on a Mega Pinsir suspect or if we’re going to see a couple friendly faces from BL? Or are we going live out the remaining months with what we have?
With the Mimikyu vote decided, I’m wondering what the last months of SM UU hold. I’ve been busy and haven’t been paying attention so I’m not sure if any of this has been discussed. Has council decided on a Mega Pinsir suspect or if we’re going to see a couple friendly faces from BL? Or are we going live out the remaining months with what we have?
I Think I Speak On Behalf Of The Vast Majority Of UnderUsed Players When I Say Thank God The Fear Mongering Did Not Work And Mimikyu Is Unbanned. I Predict This Sewage Boy Will Drop to RarelyUsed In The Next Tier Shift So It Can Join It’s Spirit Trash Brothers Flygon And Virizion In Their Even Trashier Tier.
If We Have To Rank The Viability Of This Thing I Think An Initial B- Or B Will Suffice. Trash Niche Mon That Might Sweep Low Ladder And Annoy Less Skilled Players In The Upper Ladder.
Great Suspect Test Everyone
Bring On Mega-Pinsir... An Actual Pokemon...
If We Have To Rank The Viability Of This Thing I Think An Initial B- Or B Will Suffice. Trash Niche Mon That Might Sweep Low Ladder And Annoy Less Skilled Players In The Upper Ladder.
Great Suspect Test Everyone
Bring On Mega-Pinsir... An Actual Pokemon...
Mega-Venusaur's metagame was disgusting as hell. There is a plethora of Pokemon which are waiting before a potential Mega-Venusaur suspect test. Also we're talking about a Pokemon which already got a public suspect test and while this one was close with smth like 54% ban, it's still a ban of the UU community.
PS : itsjustdrew we should get a suspect for both Drizzle and Drought (Drought one a bit more iffy since we don't know if we're keeping Mega-Houndoom to try Drought).
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Yes i have been pushing for a Drizzle and Drought test since the Scizor Suspect and now seems like an optimal time to test them. We should not test mega pinsir because it has literal no counterplay. Drought and Drizzle is the next step for this tier since Hippo is omni present and we know Mega Pert wont drop and Politoed is not a good pivot as a rain setter. LETS FREE THE TOAD
I Think I Speak On Behalf Of The Vast Majority Of UnderUsed Players When I Say Thank God The Fear Mongering Did Not Work And Mimikyu Is Unbanned. I Predict This Sewage Boy Will Drop to RarelyUsed In The Next Tier Shift So It Can Join It’s Spirit Trash Brothers Flygon And Virizion In Their Even Trashier Tier.
If We Have To Rank The Viability Of This Thing I Think An Initial B- Or B Will Suffice. Trash Niche Mon That Might Sweep Low Ladder And Annoy Less Skilled Players In The Upper Ladder.
Great Suspect Test Everyone
You guys, and others I didn't quote, exaggerate too much and make at least me think posting on Smogon is less fruitful. We can have an actual conversation in what we think are our Pinsir checks and counters and how easy or hard it is to keep Rocks up vs it and whether or not our priority does enough and if we have enough fast mons that survive Quick Attack from Pinsir. But instead WMAR's tone ends any productive conversation before it can even begin.
Why can't we be more careful with our words and more respectful of evidence and logic instead of immediately going for extreme and unnecessarily polemic positions. Maybe you're just joking (prikshit based on the capitalization I'm guessing is just memeing/trolling and mods think its funny enough), but at some point we have to make productive conversation to know what to do next.
Or just let the council spoon feed you tiering decisions and hold our little incompetent hands because we don't feel like doing the hard work of tiering. Fine, our choice.
as someone who voted unban on mega venu, i actually agree with moute; looking back, venu meta was noticeably cancer as fuck compared to the meta after it and keeping venu banned, albeit by a thin margin, was a good decision by the community.
i think a possibility with the drought test could be something like this: test drought as per normal, but when voting happens, there'll be three choices instead of the usual ban/unban, something along the lines of:
nothing special about the drizzle test here as far as i'm concerned.
my two cents on weather.
i think a possibility with the drought test could be something like this: test drought as per normal, but when voting happens, there'll be three choices instead of the usual ban/unban, something along the lines of:
- keep drought banned
- unban drought and ban mega houndoom
- unban drought and keep mega houndoom
nothing special about the drizzle test here as far as i'm concerned.
my two cents on weather.
This is probably not the best place to talk about it, but I think Mega-Pinsir does deserve some sort of test to see how it fits in this metagame. The decision to be hesistant on Mega Pinsir arises from the number of problems it caused for early XY OU. Even towards the end of Gen VI's life, OU saw a rise in BirdSpam offense with Mega Pinsir and Talonflame at the center of it all. I think it is fair to at least let the playerbase pilot the Pokemon prior to a council decision, a move that was done back in UU past.
The decision to prevent UU from becoming overly disturbed by new, possibly centralizing forces, in the metagame does preserve the balance of the game state, but it sacrifices the natural evolution of the game and most importantly, empirical evidence for a Pokemon's healthiness for the tier. It's only when the TLs (which constitute a small sample size of the high-Glicko UU playerbase, let alone the general one) are split on an outright decision will the Pokemon be granted a suspect test. Overall, allowing some disturbances in the metagame is perfectly fine to advance the evolution of the tier. Besides, people enjoy playing with a fun new toy every once in a while.
Personally, I think the way the new drops should've been handled during the Altaria suspect was to ban both Mimikyu and Mega-Pinsir during the test, then make them legal for a short while after the test. The TLs still reserve the power to quickban threats that are too much, but providing some hard evidence to support a Pokemon's brokenness in addition to theory-crafting. I know this metagame is about to come to an end next February (it takes 3 months after OU is established to have UU beta), but I think we could use this time to sort out a better quick-banning going forwards.
With that said, a more liberal approach to testing current UUBL should be considered. The list is a culmination of Pokemon that were indeed broken in the format that they were legal in, but unknown if that metric of brokenness is the same in the current format. We've seen Mega Stones slowly re-released throughout the course of Sun and Moon, so the game state of, say, Apr. 2016 is vastly different from the current format. Although I certainly don't advocate for a "broken checks broken" approach to balancing the metagame, I think there are a number of Pokemon on the current list that could use a possible test (not re-introduction) into the UU metagame, even if theory-craft says that they're completely broken in the tier (which sometimes may not be the case).
I may be a badge-less player that plays this tier infrequently (and who is also called "smogon gay baby #4"), but I hope my opinions on tiering policy (mostly unrelated to the specific current metagame) start some form of fruitful discussion among the community's members.
The decision to prevent UU from becoming overly disturbed by new, possibly centralizing forces, in the metagame does preserve the balance of the game state, but it sacrifices the natural evolution of the game and most importantly, empirical evidence for a Pokemon's healthiness for the tier. It's only when the TLs (which constitute a small sample size of the high-Glicko UU playerbase, let alone the general one) are split on an outright decision will the Pokemon be granted a suspect test. Overall, allowing some disturbances in the metagame is perfectly fine to advance the evolution of the tier. Besides, people enjoy playing with a fun new toy every once in a while.
Personally, I think the way the new drops should've been handled during the Altaria suspect was to ban both Mimikyu and Mega-Pinsir during the test, then make them legal for a short while after the test. The TLs still reserve the power to quickban threats that are too much, but providing some hard evidence to support a Pokemon's brokenness in addition to theory-crafting. I know this metagame is about to come to an end next February (it takes 3 months after OU is established to have UU beta), but I think we could use this time to sort out a better quick-banning going forwards.
With that said, a more liberal approach to testing current UUBL should be considered. The list is a culmination of Pokemon that were indeed broken in the format that they were legal in, but unknown if that metric of brokenness is the same in the current format. We've seen Mega Stones slowly re-released throughout the course of Sun and Moon, so the game state of, say, Apr. 2016 is vastly different from the current format. Although I certainly don't advocate for a "broken checks broken" approach to balancing the metagame, I think there are a number of Pokemon on the current list that could use a possible test (not re-introduction) into the UU metagame, even if theory-craft says that they're completely broken in the tier (which sometimes may not be the case).
I may be a badge-less player that plays this tier infrequently (and who is also called "smogon gay baby #4"), but I hope my opinions on tiering policy (mostly unrelated to the specific current metagame) start some form of fruitful discussion among the community's members.
Like? I honestly only suggested MVenu because I'm operating under the assumption that there isn't anything else currently in BL worth testing (sans Drought and Drizzle, I'll get to them in a sec). Maybe Weavile or Thundy-I (the latter much less so), but everything else in BL looks obviously broke and shouldn't see the light of day.
The more I think about it, the less I'm even liking the idea of retesting Drought. It just feels really redundant since the issue is apparent: MDoom is fine, Drought is fine, MDoom + Drought = HOLY FUCKING SHIT EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE. I guess we could test rain simultaneously, but I worry that the tier will just turn into Great Value Gen5 with Toed, Tails, and Torkoal on every other team. Maybe testing both will cancel each other out enough to make things not awful (since rain is def the better of the two overall), but eh...
Also
a metagame with less Fairy in it is a quality metagame btw
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Personally, I think Pokemon like Diggersby and Staraptor could see a test (feel free to disagree). You're right in saying that Weavile and Thundurus-I are both broken on paper (and practice back when they were legal), but the metagame is different than before, and there's no way of actually knowing whether these borderline cases' healthiness without some testing and empirical evidence (replays and just general set/team experimentation). Haxorus used to be theory-crafted as being broken for UU in XY (or BW, I don't quite remember) because it could 2HKO the entire metagame. After the council narrowly voted it into legality, it became apparent that Hax wasn't as good in practice as it was on paper.
We have a highly playable metagame, but that is achieved through artificial staunching of metagame drops that isn't fully shaped naturally. Also, I think most lower tiers have a bad habit of figuratively leaving a Pokemon in the attic and let it collect dust. Rarely are old bans (even those from years ago) are revisited because there's a general discomfort around potentially losing the familiar metagame we already have now.
#FreeKommo-o
I have an honest to goodness question about the state of the tier.
What happens with Sword and Shield? They are legit dropping mons. How will Smogon as a whole handle that? I know we go close with how the game works, which is why we have team preview, despite protests. But this...is such a game changer I couldn't reasonably predict.
What happens with Sword and Shield? They are legit dropping mons. How will Smogon as a whole handle that? I know we go close with how the game works, which is why we have team preview, despite protests. But this...is such a game changer I couldn't reasonably predict.
To my knowlege smogon will have main tiers with mons that are ONLY in swordshield, and will also have a tier with every single pokemon, this was confirmed on smongons twitter. I'm not exactly sure about UU, ubers, RU etc... maybe lower tiers for both but not sure
I know UU has been having its fair share of suspects lately, and weather is most likely next (which I heavily disagree with), but I've been doing a LOT of thinking on the metagame lately and wanted to share why I think the correct step would be suspecting Latias.
I really don't need an extensive explanation of what Latias does in the tier at this point. Base 110 Speed coupled with Calm Mind is absolutely absurd especially when you take Z-Crystals into account. Running Pursuit is necessary on a vast majority of teams solely because of Latias; in fact, it's why Scarf Krook became so popular in the first place. At +1, this thing is nuking almost the entire tier with Electrium Z, and one misplay with your Krookodile can cost you the game. CM Latias is capable of beating fat teams entirely by itself if the appropriate mon is weakened (think Mega Steelix, Krookodile, Diancie, Blissey). That's only talking about CM, but now you need to factor it running sets like LO, Specs, etc... This monster is just as versatile as Scizor and I highly recommend you take a look at Pearl's post here to see just how influential Latias has been and still is.
However, I wanted to dedicate this post more so to theorize about what a meta without Latias would look like and why I think it's a step in the right direction and better than what we have right now, even if Latias isn't "broken".
1. No necessary Pursuit
--> No Latias means that teams won't be forced to run Pursuit anymore. This obviously doesn't mean that Pursuit can't / shouldn't be used, since it's still good for things like Celebi, Starmie, Gengar, & just picking off weakened mons in general, but now you have more liberty for things like: SR Krook, which is a fantastic setter against stall / bulky teams in general with a free last slot if Taunt isn't needed, a potentially free slot in Aero if you opt out of Pursuit, etc. Ghost-types and Psychic-types (Celebi, Starmie, Gengar, etc) become better, which will help balance out the (probably) increased usage in Fighting-types (see #3). SR Krook will also hopefully see more usage and it's a fantastic setter that has a really good matchup against the very strong archetype that is stall rn.
2. Water-types become more popular
--> No Electrium-Z means that Water-type Pokemon won't be complete setup bait against Latias. Tentacruel becomes a better hazard remover, Slowbro becomes a better to check Fighting-types, Starmie becomes much better as a remover & check to Fighting-types, and I'm not gonna explain all of them but you have Suicune, Volcanion, Jellicent, Empoleon, and any others I might be forgetting. Increased usage in Water-types means that checking Scizor becomes easier since most of these help vs it.
3. Fighting-types become more popular
--> Latias is a very popular answer against the Fighting-types in the tier. With it gone, Infernape, Terrakion, Cobalion, and Lucario get better. 3/4 of these help soft check Scizor on offense. Infernape and Lucario also have a decent matchup against stall which is at an incredible state in the current meta. Cobalion could potentially also start running CM sets more viably since Latias won't be able to switch in and CM on Cobalion freely.
There's also other smaller points that I won't bother expanding on as much as the ones above:
1) Bulky Fairy-types like Sylveon and Florges also get better now that Latias doesn't beat them 1v1 and become reliable checks to Dragon-types on balance.
2) Mienshao also becomes an effective pivot on balance and offense vs Dragon-types, can be used on more offensive teams that can find fitting a Fairy-type pretty awkward (i.e. VoltTurn), & also helps vs stall thanks to Knock Off + Regenerator (OU folks, think Torn-T).
3) Celebi definitely gets better as it loses one of its best offensive checks. Some might think Celebi will be too good (it very well could be a nuisance to check), but I think it'll be more of an early hype thing since it can still be checked by Infernape, Mienshao, Scizor, scarf Hydreigon, etc. Celebi also helps vs stall; did I mention stall was extremely good rn?
Terrakion might be too good to the point it'd need a suspect afterwards, but even if it's suspected/banned, it might be better for the tier anyway lol. There easily could've been things that I forgot to mention, but I encourage everyone to at least ponder about a metagame without Latias. I think there's potential for a few mons that can't shine now to have a better chance at doing so w/o Lati. Would the tier be better? I honestly think so. Even if people disagree, I hope this post at least sparks some interesting discussion, because I think that testing drizzle/drought would just be a waste of time right now; can't see how drizzle would be balanced with stuff like SD Kabu or how drought + Houndoom, or just drought w/o it, would help the tier much.
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I really don't think we should be suspecting Pinsir. The mon pretty much lacks defensive counterplay: even the unaware mons get 2hko'd after rocks, and the bulky steels we have inevitably get worn down and put in range of +2 EQ. It's true that there are several mons capable of outspeeding Pinsir, eating Quick and revenge killing it, but it's a decently small pool of mons (Scarf Krook, Manec, Aero, Zeraora, maybe scarf Rotom if you're willing to give up the bulky set) and while they are pretty popular I don't think they're enough to offset Pinsir's lack of reliable defensive answers. You'd pretty much be pigeonholed into running one of these revenge killers and one of the aforementioned bulky steels on every build just to beat it, which is extremely centralizing and might not even work if Pinsir receives the proper team support (Spikes/Screens HO, anyone?). Plus wait til people start dropping Quick for Sub to not be revenge'd and to avoid status when setting up. Keep Pinsir BL
Just popped up when I was typing about Pinsir but I think this is the best-case scenario for a suspect at this point for all the reasons mentioned in this post. Read it it's very good
I know UU has been having its fair share of suspects lately, and weather is most likely next (which I heavily disagree with), but I've been doing a LOT of thinking on the metagame lately and wanted to share why I think the correct step would be suspecting Latias.
I really don't need an extensive explanation of what Latias does in the tier at this point. Base 110 Speed coupled with Calm Mind is absolutely absurd especially when you take Z-Crystals into account. Running Pursuit is necessary on a vast majority of teams solely because of Latias; in fact, it's why Scarf Krook became so popular in the first place. At +1, this thing is nuking almost the entire tier with Electrium Z, and one misplay with your Krookodile can cost you the game. CM Latias is capable of beating fat teams entirely by itself if the appropriate mon is weakened (think Mega Steelix, Krookodile, Diancie, Blissey). That's only talking about CM, but now you need to factor it running sets like LO, Specs, etc... This monster is just as versatile as Scizor and I highly recommend you take a look at Pearl's post here to see just how influential Latias has been and still is.
However, I wanted to dedicate this post more so to theorize about what a meta without Latias would look like and why I think it's a step in the right direction and better than what we have right now, even if Latias isn't "broken".
1. No necessary Pursuit
--> No Latias means that teams won't be forced to run Pursuit anymore. This obviously doesn't mean that Pursuit can't / shouldn't be used, since it's still good for things like Celebi, Starmie, Gengar, & just picking off weakened mons in general, but now you have more liberty for things like: SR Krook, which is a fantastic setter against stall / bulky teams in general with a free last slot if Taunt isn't needed, a potentially free slot in Aero if you opt out of Pursuit, etc. Ghost-types and Psychic-types (Celebi, Starmie, Gengar, etc) become better, which will help balance out the (probably) increased usage in Fighting-types (see #3). SR Krook will also hopefully see more usage and it's a fantastic setter that has a really good matchup against the very strong archetype that is stall rn.
2. Water-types become more popular
--> No Electrium-Z means that Water-type Pokemon won't be complete setup bait against Latias. Tentacruel becomes a better hazard remover, Slowbro becomes a better to check Fighting-types, Starmie becomes much better as a remover & check to Fighting-types, and I'm not gonna explain all of them but you have Suicune, Volcanion, Jellicent, Empoleon, and any others I might be forgetting. Increased usage in Water-types means that checking Scizor becomes easier since most of these help vs it.
3. Fighting-types become more popular
--> Latias is a very popular answer against the Fighting-types in the tier. With it gone, Infernape, Terrakion, Cobalion, and Lucario get better. 3/4 of these help soft check Scizor on offense. Infernape and Lucario also have a decent matchup against stall which is at an incredible state in the current meta. Cobalion could potentially also start running CM sets more viably since Latias won't be able to switch in and CM on Cobalion freely.
There's also other smaller points that I won't bother expanding on as much as the ones above:
1) Bulky Fairy-types like Sylveon and Florges also get better now that Latias doesn't beat them 1v1 and become reliable checks to Dragon-types on balance.
2) Mienshao also becomes an effective pivot on balance and offense vs Dragon-types, can be used on more offensive teams that can find fitting a Fairy-type pretty awkward (i.e. VoltTurn), & also helps vs stall thanks to Knock Off + Regenerator (OU folks, think Torn-T).
3) Celebi definitely gets better as it loses one of its best offensive checks. Some might think Celebi will be too good (it very well could be a nuisance to check), but I think it'll be more of an early hype thing since it can still be checked by Infernape, Mienshao, Scizor, scarf Hydreigon, etc. Celebi also helps vs stall; did I mention stall was extremely good rn?
Terrakion might be too good to the point it'd need a suspect afterwards, but even if it's suspected/banned, it might be better for the tier anyway lol. There easily could've been things that I forgot to mention, but I encourage everyone to at least ponder about a metagame without Latias. I think there's potential for a few mons that can't shine now to have a better chance at doing so w/o Lati. Would the tier be better? I honestly think so. Even if people disagree, I hope this post at least sparks some interesting discussion, because I think that testing drizzle/drought would just be a waste of time right now; can't see how drizzle would be balanced with stuff like SD Kabu or how drought + Houndoom, or just drought w/o it, would help the tier much.
Just popped up when I was typing about Pinsir but I think this is the best-case scenario for a suspect at this point for all the reasons mentioned in this post. Read it it's very good
I know UU has been having its fair share of suspects lately, and weather is most likely next (which I heavily disagree with), but I've been doing a LOT of thinking on the metagame lately and wanted to share why I think the correct step would be suspecting Latias.
I really don't need an extensive explanation of what Latias does in the tier at this point. Base 110 Speed coupled with Calm Mind is absolutely absurd especially when you take Z-Crystals into account. Running Pursuit is necessary on a vast majority of teams solely because of Latias; in fact, it's why Scarf Krook became so popular in the first place. At +1, this thing is nuking almost the entire tier with Electrium Z, and one misplay with your Krookodile can cost you the game. CM Latias is capable of beating fat teams entirely by itself if the appropriate mon is weakened (think Mega Steelix, Krookodile, Diancie, Blissey). That's only talking about CM, but now you need to factor it running sets like LO, Specs, etc... This monster is just as versatile as Scizor and I highly recommend you take a look at Pearl's post here to see just how influential Latias has been and still is.
However, I wanted to dedicate this post more so to theorize about what a meta without Latias would look like and why I think it's a step in the right direction and better than what we have right now, even if Latias isn't "broken".
1. No necessary Pursuit
--> No Latias means that teams won't be forced to run Pursuit anymore. This obviously doesn't mean that Pursuit can't / shouldn't be used, since it's still good for things like Celebi, Starmie, Gengar, & just picking off weakened mons in general, but now you have more liberty for things like: SR Krook, which is a fantastic setter against stall / bulky teams in general with a free last slot if Taunt isn't needed, a potentially free slot in Aero if you opt out of Pursuit, etc. Ghost-types and Psychic-types (Celebi, Starmie, Gengar, etc) become better, which will help balance out the (probably) increased usage in Fighting-types (see #3). SR Krook will also hopefully see more usage and it's a fantastic setter that has a really good matchup against the very strong archetype that is stall rn.
2. Water-types become more popular
--> No Electrium-Z means that Water-type Pokemon won't be complete setup bait against Latias. Tentacruel becomes a better hazard remover, Slowbro becomes a better to check Fighting-types, Starmie becomes much better as a remover & check to Fighting-types, and I'm not gonna explain all of them but you have Suicune, Volcanion, Jellicent, Empoleon, and any others I might be forgetting. Increased usage in Water-types means that checking Scizor becomes easier since most of these help vs it.
3. Fighting-types become more popular
--> Latias is a very popular answer against the Fighting-types in the tier. With it gone, Infernape, Terrakion, Cobalion, and Lucario get better. 3/4 of these help soft check Scizor on offense. Infernape and Lucario also have a decent matchup against stall which is at an incredible state in the current meta. Cobalion could potentially also start running CM sets more viably since Latias won't be able to switch in and CM on Cobalion freely.
There's also other smaller points that I won't bother expanding on as much as the ones above:
1) Bulky Fairy-types like Sylveon and Florges also get better now that Latias doesn't beat them 1v1 and become reliable checks to Dragon-types on balance.
2) Mienshao also becomes an effective pivot on balance and offense vs Dragon-types, can be used on more offensive teams that can find fitting a Fairy-type pretty awkward (i.e. VoltTurn), & also helps vs stall thanks to Knock Off + Regenerator (OU folks, think Torn-T).
3) Celebi definitely gets better as it loses one of its best offensive checks. Some might think Celebi will be too good (it very well could be a nuisance to check), but I think it'll be more of an early hype thing since it can still be checked by Infernape, Mienshao, Scizor, scarf Hydreigon, etc. Celebi also helps vs stall; did I mention stall was extremely good rn?
Terrakion might be too good to the point it'd need a suspect afterwards, but even if it's suspected/banned, it might be better for the tier anyway lol. There easily could've been things that I forgot to mention, but I encourage everyone to at least ponder about a metagame without Latias. I think there's potential for a few mons that can't shine now to have a better chance at doing so w/o Lati. Would the tier be better? I honestly think so. Even if people disagree, I hope this post at least sparks some interesting discussion, because I think that testing drizzle/drought would just be a waste of time right now; can't see how drizzle would be balanced with stuff like SD Kabu or how drought + Houndoom, or just drought w/o it, would help the tier much.
The Manner In Which This Post Is Written Is Impeccable And I Obstensibly Agree With The Aforementioned Points This User Has Raised And I Encourage All Of My UnderUsed Brothers To Read These Valid Points.
Latias Is A Certified Great Pokemon In The Tier Unlike Some Of The Trash That We See Passing Through This Tier. It Reminds Me Of Walking Through The Streets And A Garbage Flies By Such As Mimikyu And I Think Why Is This Even Being Suspected, And Is Not Just An Overhyped Rated Pokemon Such As Doublade Or Empolean Where You Question The Skill Of A Player Who Would Use Such A Trash Tier Pokemon.
Latias Has Characteristics To This Mon As My Brother Has Raised Which Question Whether It Is Unhealthy For The Metagame. One Must Wonder In This Regard What A Metagame Without This Creature Would Look Like And I Think We May Not See Just How Centralising This Beast Is Until We Sample A Tier Without It.
i wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the general discussion thread but since this thread is sort of a catch-all I feel like it'd be better to post here.
I believe that florges is one of the most improperly used mons in the metagame. It's been popular over the past few weeks/months as part of the potent tenta+mlix/magg+florges trio, one of the best defensive cores in the meta.
Currently, its spread is essentially that of sylveon, with the analysis/standard set being 252/252 bold. While this set is helpful versus physical mons like m-aero, I believe that it's outdated and outclassed by sylveon, with this set having few niches over sylveon - such as sponging hits from moltres better - and even then you'll most likely lose the 1v1 vs roost sets with confusion being a factor.
Another issue with florges is that, much like non-frustration/return sylveon, it will likely lose to cm+roost lati barring several fortunately timed crits.
Continuing, standard 0 speed florges also loses to specs primarina, as it can't switch in on multiple hydro pumps nor moonblasts (with rocks up).
So, how do we solve these problems?
The answer is as follows: turbo toxic mixed defensive florges:
Essentially, this set takes away physical defense in exchange for directly countering cm boltbeam lati, countering and outspeeding primarina, and remaining stalwart against numerous other specially-oriented mons, while also outspeeding crawdaunt as a lesser benefit. While you do lose physical defense, having florges as your first line of defense against mons such as maero isn't wise to begin with. You also still counter m-sharpedo, another valuable niche to have that this set still retains. Toxic allows you to beat both specs primarina and cm boltbeam latias, while also awarding you more offensive utility as a whole.
What this set accomplishes is having direct and effective counterplay against mons that have few other concrete answers in the current metagame. In sum, you remove broad strokes physical defense utility for direct, metagame conforming utility.
Obviously this set has the same typical flaws that regular florges does, namely in its naturally passive disposition, but having turbo toxic florges provides BO/balances with a profound degree of freedom and safety when dealing with several of the tier's premier offensive threats.
I believe that florges is one of the most improperly used mons in the metagame. It's been popular over the past few weeks/months as part of the potent tenta+mlix/magg+florges trio, one of the best defensive cores in the meta.
Currently, its spread is essentially that of sylveon, with the analysis/standard set being 252/252 bold. While this set is helpful versus physical mons like m-aero, I believe that it's outdated and outclassed by sylveon, with this set having few niches over sylveon - such as sponging hits from moltres better - and even then you'll most likely lose the 1v1 vs roost sets with confusion being a factor.
Another issue with florges is that, much like non-frustration/return sylveon, it will likely lose to cm+roost lati barring several fortunately timed crits.
Continuing, standard 0 speed florges also loses to specs primarina, as it can't switch in on multiple hydro pumps nor moonblasts (with rocks up).
So, how do we solve these problems?
The answer is as follows: turbo toxic mixed defensive florges:
Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Toxic
- Aromatherapy/Wish/Defog
- Synthesis
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Toxic
- Aromatherapy/Wish/Defog
- Synthesis
What this set accomplishes is having direct and effective counterplay against mons that have few other concrete answers in the current metagame. In sum, you remove broad strokes physical defense utility for direct, metagame conforming utility.
Obviously this set has the same typical flaws that regular florges does, namely in its naturally passive disposition, but having turbo toxic florges provides BO/balances with a profound degree of freedom and safety when dealing with several of the tier's premier offensive threats.
im not gonna read this full post above me but dont use defog florges that shit is trash, im fine with the rest of it
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