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Metagame np: SM UU Stage 10.3 - Like Smoke (Mega Altaria remains UU)

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TIERING UPDATE

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usage-based-tier-update-for-july-2019.3652063/

As many of you may have seen, Mimikyu and Mega Pinsir fell to UU with the latest tier shift. Both of these have the potential to leave a huge impact on the tier. Mega Pinsir in particular has the potential to power through offensive and defensive teams alike with its above-average Speed, strong priority, high base power attacks and great coverage. (To put things into perspective, Adamant Mega Pinsir reliably 2HKOs Quagsire with Return and at +2 has a shot at OHKOing standard Hippowdon with Return or dealing ~75% to Mega Aggron with Close Combat.) Mimikyu lacks the immediate power of Mega Pinsir, but its strong STAB combination and fantastic ability allows it to be a huge threat as well.

So as to not derail the current suspect test, the UU council unanimously voted to quickban Mega Pinsir and Mimikyu. We are discussing holding a proper suspect test for Mimikyu to follow the Mega Altaria test.

I know everyone is eager to try out these new toys, but the council strongly felt this was the best option for the tier, considering the importance of the current test. I appreciate your patience.

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Confirming as UUAS Munch

It's really late so i'm not going to get as detailed as other people got.

I do not find Mega Altaria to be unhealthy and I will be voting No Ban. Many of the top threats that defensive Altaria is intended to check, such as Hydreigon and Infernape, still have access to moves such as Flash Cannon or Gunk Shot that I think see respectable usage and are in no way bad or super situational 4th moves on those pokemon. Scizor, a pokemon that Altaria has a lot of trouble against, is one of the easiest pokemon to fit on UU teams and the most common pokemon in the current UU metagame. Even at +1 Scizor is still able to deal with Mega Altaria and force it out and Pokemon such as Defensive Primarina can also take a +1 Return and in most cases KO Altaria with some prior chip.

Mega Aggron and Steelix are also able to switch in pretty safely and continuously force Altaria out and with wish support, they never have to worry about getting too low from taking Earthquake/Return on the switch in. Amoonguss is also capable of sponging hits from Mega Altaria, although it can get worn down over time and would also most likely need some support. These are just some of the things that came to mind when thinking about Mega Altaria, but i'm sure there is more.

To me, the biggest threat is facade Altaria, but that set also does not generate too much of a threat due to being completely dependent on your opponent inflicting you with status. This is not incredibly difficult to play around as long as you scout to see if the Altaria is running return or facade in order to see how to best deal with it prior to inflicting it with any status.
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Got my reqs on uuas mrupt for c-

I think I had the most boring ladder run of all time this time around, my losses were to like 6 zu mons and then every other game my opp just sacked their alt checks and alt won. I don't have much to add to this thread, I honestly have no opinion on this at all and yet again I don't know what I'm voting. Mega Altaria has recently felt absolutely fuckin disgusting but I doubt I'd slap the "broken" label on it, this is a very similar situation to sciz where it definitely has checks and no one's arguing that but it just gets around it's checks so easily. You can run DD w/ EQ, DD w/ Refresh, DD w/ Facade, special attacker, mixed 3 atks, defog/utility sets with much more bulk and probably a 17 stat spread... but if we're being honest I think the first two or maybe 3 are the only ones that matter when we're talking about this suspect.

Unlike Scizor with like 27 moves being slashed in it's SD set, malt literally just flip flops between these two moves and it's list of checks changes entirely which is p brazy. This fact is really annoying to build around at times, and if you throw in the fact that a lot of malt's checks are chipped so easily and lack consistent recovery/being weak to coverage (magg, doub, tenta, etc), then malt can def be a piece of rat at times. Amoonguss gets by this by having broken ass regen, but if alt isn't megad it lowkey uses it as setup fodder if it doesn't have Clear Smog, and if it does have Clear Smog then alt can just keep spamming attacks since most gusses don't run Synthesis. The point is that it's too passive to be consistent.

But as I said, the checks are def there. Scizor, Magg, Doub, Amoonguss, and more offensive things that can pressure it like Nihilego, Mega Beedrill, Mamoswine, Nidoking, etc. Malt's speed is not perfect and it's weakness to rocks pre-mega can be really really annoying at times. Highkey might vote abstain b/c I truly don't have a strong opinion or really any opinion leaning towards either side of the fence. This post has literally just been me rambling about shit you guys already know about but I hope you enjoyed reading it at the least, I've gotten to a point where I can get reqs first try literally whenever I want and ik nobody really cares but that's p dope to me since it really wasn't that long ago I was grinding so hard just to get reqs once.

I'll bless you assholes with a team that I laddered with, I did ladder for mrupt for a while but games were going too slow and I found this team to be very fun: https://pokepast.es/c8e8436e9640a4a3
 
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Managed to reach reqs. Mega-Altaria is 50% of what compelled me to start playing UU (love that mon, every time I play through ORAS I always leave one slot open for it) so this is definitely a weird suspect to be participating in. I plan to vote No Ban when the voting goes up.

While it's undoubtedly true that Mega-Altaria is a very high performing mon in the tier, especially with the sweeper sets where it can potentially muscle past mons that it should have a bad matchup to in theory, I don't believe that it crosses over into the territory of broken/uncompetitive. It's not centralizing to the point where you have to use obscure mons in order to have a chance against it. Case in point: Aggron-Mega and Amoonguss are both checks/hard checks (maybe even a counter for Aggron-Mega if the Alt's not running Fire Blast) to Sweeper Altaria, while also serving as effective answers to the king of the tier, Scizor, and also walling a ton of other mons.

I'm pretty late to the party, so most of what I would say would be repeating earlier posts, so I won't get into those. I did want to respond to the DragMag note, though:
spuds4ever said:
Good to see this coming up as much as I was looking forward to seeing weather retested. Dragmag is honestly the easiest most consistent way to win both in ladder and tour games I've played (spoilers for teams) and altaria is at the heart of its success as it can put in so much work once steels are weakened and gone between it's amazing bulk (I've been preferring fatter adamant which can survive a 2hko from latias psychic and psyshock and counter non LO/psychium sets making it maybe the only non steel that can consistently counter lati). Heal bell pulls so much weight as well particularly in tandem with CM lati, its best partner on dragmag, as toxic is often fatter teams' best response if scizor is gone.
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I ran some DragMag towards the end of getting reqs, and I don't think it's as consistent as you say. Owing to Magneton's low bulk, it's not difficult to chip it with Scizor U-Turns and hazards to the point where it stops being able to reliably get a kill against what it's supposed to take out. Scarf can't 2HKO spdef Aggron-Mega, which OHKOs back with Earthquake or 2HKOs back with Fire Punch, and Scizor dances around Magneton until it's low enough that it can't switch into anything. There's enough counterplay to DragMag that it doesn't necessarily work without some clever maneuvering from the player.
 
Wigglytuff said:
Managed to reach reqs. Mega-Altaria is 50% of what compelled me to start playing UU (love that mon, every time I play through ORAS I always leave one slot open for it) so this is definitely a weird suspect to be participating in. I plan to vote No Ban when the voting goes up.

While it's undoubtedly true that Mega-Altaria is a very high performing mon in the tier, especially with the sweeper sets where it can potentially muscle past mons that it should have a bad matchup to in theory, I don't believe that it crosses over into the territory of broken/uncompetitive. It's not centralizing to the point where you have to use obscure mons in order to have a chance against it. Case in point: Aggron-Mega and Amoonguss are both checks/hard checks (maybe even a counter for Aggron-Mega if the Alt's not running Fire Blast) to Sweeper Altaria, while also serving as effective answers to the king of the tier, Scizor, and also walling a ton of other mons.

I'm pretty late to the party, so most of what I would say would be repeating earlier posts, so I won't get into those. I did want to respond to the DragMag note, though:

I ran some DragMag towards the end of getting reqs, and I don't think it's as consistent as you say. Owing to Magneton's low bulk, it's not difficult to chip it with Scizor U-Turns and hazards to the point where it stops being able to reliably get a kill against what it's supposed to take out. Scarf can't 2HKO spdef Aggron-Mega, which OHKOs back with Earthquake or 2HKOs back with Fire Punch, and Scizor dances around Magneton until it's low enough that it can't switch into anything. There's enough counterplay to DragMag that it doesn't necessarily work without some clever maneuvering from the player.
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I appreciate the direct reply but I don't think these criticisms really apply to the dragmag I've seen on ladder/stolen which used eject button amoongus to get mag in for free against sciz. Even if you don't want to use that, scizor is still forced to press u-turn or superpower against mega alt every turn it's in unless you want to risk the trap so I feel it's a very favourable stance for the alt player as even if you mispredict and lose alt to bp you still get the guaranteed trap and now have one less check to lati or whatever else you're using as the second part of your dragon formula.

As for mega gron, again, mag doesn't have to kill it to do what you want. Volt switch is free chip particularly given that the only viable way to heal up gron is using mola or healing wish, the former of which is also a free switch to mag (unless you really need the scarf) so in my experience aggron teams also have a hard time against more patient drag mag.

Maybe you're still not convinced but I feel it's still hard to deny that it isn't the biggest contributor to the "forced to run sciz on all non-stall" phenomena that was widely discussed last suspect particularly when you consider that all the best scarfers in the tier (hydra, lati, nape, krook) are all poor countermeasures to it. Yes, it's a very splashable mon thanks to its good bulk and offensive presence but it has so much of both that I really think it restricts teambuilding more than it frees it up and thus is an unhealthy presence.
 
vivalospride said:
Got my reqs on uuas mrupt for c-

Mega Altaria has recently felt absolutely fuckin disgusting but I doubt I'd slap the "broken" label on it, this is a very similar situation to sciz where it definitely has checks and no one's arguing that but it just gets around it's checks so easily. You can run DD w/ EQ, DD w/ Refresh, DD w/ Facade, special attacker, mixed 3 atks, defog/utility sets with much more bulk and probably a 17 stat spread... but if we're being honest I think the first two or maybe 3 are the only ones that matter when we're talking about this suspect.

I'll bless you assholes with a team that I laddered with, I did ladder for mrupt for a while but games were going too slow and I found this team to be very fun: https://pokepast.es/c8e8436e9640a4a3
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I agree with this so I’ll vote ban also lol nothing matters except GO FRIENDS

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-442430

MegaEd Altaria casually annhilating a healthy Clear Smog Amoonguss without Fire Blast LOOOOL GO CBU
 
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Confirming as UUAS Luckyboy123

I don't play UU terribly much but I had some time in between my chemotherapy treatments for my lymphoma to get reqs so here we are. Mega altaria is something that really carried my games but only after scizor, amoongus and other checks were removed and tbh I think the mon can apply a ton of pressure very well and also manage to take a ton of hits on its own. Shoutouts to SilvioGuacamole for the W7 UUPL team that I stole and to UUAS Sedic who gave me quite the good convo while laddering. Atm I lean ban but I'll read into the topic a bit more before making any sort of decision.
 
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Sup fam i just manage to got reqs on this suspect and i really wanted to. I know the majority is for unban the cotony birdy op mon but im totally for banning it. First, i think mega alty limited the possibility of diversity in your build because if u have no scizor or steel types to revenge it, it will be hard to win. Moreover amoongus dont really win against mega altaria, i tried it in the replay im linkin right there but without mega blastoise in my team or scizor, this thing doesnt pressure too much mega altaria and prevent it to sweep my sweet ass. Yeah i dont think this is a good thing for the tiers so im voting BAN :)

The replay with the team i used: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-939184942
 

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InfernoDolphin73 said:
So you don’t ban scizor but now you try to ban malt?

Humanity intelligence at its finest point.
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So you don't understand anything about Altaria and suspect tests but now you try to make a post on its suspect thread ?
Humanity intelligence at its finest point.

Anyway aside from this terrible post there were some nice ones and it made me really question about Altaria's banworthiness. The aim of this post will be to determine what actually counters Altaria. These 3 sets are the most relevant imo and will be the one I'll be refering to in my argumentation. So first, the Facade EQ set. Its main goal is to sweep through stall but can also put in a lot of work against other match-ups since more offensive teams won't be able to tank an unboosted Facade at +1 with Adamant nature and EQ gives it almost perfect coverage. This set can deal with mons that will usually like to come in to annoy the refresh set like Aggron, Steelix, Tentacruel and Nidoqueen. There is also a variation of this set w/ Fire Blast, which will be less effective against poison types except for Amoonguss but that can still hit steel types hard and doesn't suffer from the burn reducing the power of Earthquake but most importantly can get rid of Scizor by catching it on the switch, predicting a U-Turn or just after taking a bullet punch in regular form. The problem of these 2 sets is that they require more support, since you'll need your Altaria to stay in regular form in order to keep Natural Cure so you'll usually need a second measure against Hydreigon like Cobalion, Blissey or Mienshao. The refresh set however will need less support and will instead be a better glue. It lacks coverage and power but is easier to setup and can still break through stall with the help of Scizor or just by pp stalling Quagsire. Facade + Refresh is also an alternative.
So now, what checks the 3 sets ? Well, nothing. There is no pokemon in UnderUsed that can single handedly check the three sets, you need two or more pokémon to be able to check it properly. The Facade + EQ set struggles against Scizor, Rotom-h and Amoonguss, the Facade + Fire blast set against Rotom-H, Tentacruel and Nidoqueen and the Refresh set against everything mentioned outside of Rotom-H and other steel types like Aggron and Steelix. Generally people run Rotom-H + a steel / a poison type like Rotom-H + Scizor which also checks Latias.
However, I will now show how each set can get aways with the "checks" I mentioned. If burned, Rotom-H has no way of crippling Altaria and will just watch it setup and clean with Facade. Amoonguss doesn't 2HKO Altaria with clear smog so it needs to take a +1 Attack each time it comes in and since it usually doesn't run Synthesis, it's gonna need to switch out after clicking clear smog to remain healthy. As shown by this calc :+1 164+ Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Amoonguss: 182-215 (42.1 - 49.7%), if rocks are up, Amoonguss will eventually lose the war. If Amoonguss runs Sludge Bomb, it won't be able to stop non-mega Altaria to setup. Facade Fire Blast Altaria can actually 1v1 Tentacruel like shown in this example replay. So the only counter to the EQ Facade set is Scizor and the only counter to the Facade Fire Blast set is Nidoqueen, who is actually more of a check since it has no recovery move. It is also important to note that steel types have to fear the potential Magneton.
However, Altaria often needs to be burned in order to sweep with its Facade sets, and also generally needs to be burned in order to put the mons it needs to be weakened in range of it, and is often hard stopped by Scizor's Bullet Punch anw. Thus, even though Altaria can setup pretty easily thanks to its amazing bulk and defensive typing, it struggles a bit to put itself in a position where it can sweep, and its most threatening sets are also more difficult to build with, so it definitely isn't a free mon that works on itself, it needs its user to play well with it, but the fear it leaves on team building and the fact that it can win any match-up by itself given that it has the right set / the player makes the right plays leads me to think it is too much for UU and deserves to be banned.
 
So I kinda f'ed up my suspect test this time... I was doing ok until about 30 mins ago when I was at my last game - a win would have secured it... Long story short I lost 4 games in a row leaving me at 35 wins 13 losses

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However I still want to put my thoughts here and basically what I discovered during the suspect so that you can all benefit from my questionable knowledge :blobthumbsup:


So during the suspect I used an old sub fight z gengar team made by moute. The team features a bulky refresh mega alt and a combination of rotom heat and scizor as the main alt checks. I firstly found that refresh altaria is almost free wins all the way up until 1400s ish, alot of players like to run band scizor, and a little rinse repeat with altaria clicking return + rocks quickly wore that down, leaving altaria to set up a few dd's and simply win. From this my verdict is that Malt is a huge threat and even when you have a switch in like band scizor which can potentially really punish Malt comming in in the first place.


Continuing to my experiences Vs other altaria. I found that I didn't lose many games to other Malt. Which is interesting... The combination of volt switch momentum from rotom heat as a pseudo check, and iron plate scizor always being able to threaten a revenge ohko on any alt set outside of an extremely defensive one ment I never really had any issues. I found that provided I accepted altaria was a threat and kept my scizor healthy without taking any unnecessary risks with it, that it was near impossible to lose to altaria.

So I'm left in an interesting situation. One where I found my experience against altaria was that it was easy to beat, and another where altaria was clapping me opponents with relative ease. And I honestly find this whole suspect a little similar to zygarde. The whole - each different tech allows it to beat something else. And don't get my wrong, I can read your calcs, facade clearly fists stall, fire blast clearly dicks amoongus and doublade on the switch. But is it worthy of a ban... Idk. There are a few things to touch on.
- some players are too predictable, they go hard scizor without scouting for fire blast. This is simply an ability of play thing.
- sometimes altaria just gets the matchup and the set!
- sometimes altaria just doesn't get the matchup or the set... Like if it's fire blast and your opponent has rotom heat + solid defogger

And after all of this I find myself sitting on the fence... 1 week of hard laddering and I still feel a little indecisive. However I think if I had to pick one I would ban.

Facade 2hkoing quag seems nasty. While I hate quag with a passion you gotta feel sorry for it getting blown back like that

The uncertainty of fire blast or not just plain sucks and fire blast literally ohkos what is commonly regarded as it's best counter in scizor.

So while I haven't lost to it a bunch, my opponents have, and it sounds like alot more people too.

Feel free to @me if you want to query anything I said or if you think something I said requires a correction, you might be able to sway me, not that I can vote anyway. :blobshrug:
☮Out
 
Jaajgko said:
So you don't understand anything about Altaria and suspect tests but now you try to make a post on its suspect thread ?
Humanity intelligence at its finest point.

Anyway aside from this terrible post there were some nice ones and it made me really question about Altaria's banworthiness. The aim of this post will be to determine what actually counters Altaria. These 3 sets are the most relevant imo and will be the one I'll be refering to in my argumentation. So first, the Facade EQ set. Its main goal is to sweep through stall but can also put in a lot of work against other match-ups since more offensive teams won't be able to tank an unboosted Facade at +1 with Adamant nature and EQ gives it almost perfect coverage. This set can deal with mons that will usually like to come in to annoy the refresh set like Aggron, Steelix, Tentacruel and Nidoqueen. There is also a variation of this set w/ Fire Blast, which will be less effective against poison types except for Amoonguss but that can still hit steel types hard and doesn't suffer from the burn reducing the power of Earthquake but most importantly can get rid of Scizor by catching it on the switch, predicting a U-Turn or just after taking a bullet punch in regular form. The problem of these 2 sets is that they require more support, since you'll need your Altaria to stay in regular form in order to keep Natural Cure so you'll usually need a second measure against Hydreigon like Cobalion, Blissey or Mienshao. The refresh set however will need less support and will instead be a better glue. It lacks coverage and power but is easier to setup and can still break through stall with the help of Scizor or just by pp stalling Quagsire. Facade + Refresh is also an alternative.
So now, what checks the 3 sets ? Well, nothing. There is no pokemon in UnderUsed that can single handedly check the three sets, you need two or more pokémon to be able to check it properly. The Facade + EQ set struggles against Scizor, Rotom-h and Amoonguss, the Facade + Fire blast set against Rotom-H, Tentacruel and Nidoqueen and the Refresh set against everything mentioned outside of Rotom-H and other steel types like Aggron and Steelix. Generally people run Rotom-H + a steel / a poison type like Rotom-H + Scizor which also checks Latias.
However, I will now show how each set can get aways with the "checks" I mentioned. If burned, Rotom-H has no way of crippling Altaria and will just watch it setup and clean with Facade. Amoonguss doesn't 2HKO Altaria with clear smog so it needs to take a +1 Attack each time it comes in and since it usually doesn't run Synthesis, it's gonna need to switch out after clicking clear smog to remain healthy. As shown by this calc :+1 164+ Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Amoonguss: 182-215 (42.1 - 49.7%), if rocks are up, Amoonguss will eventually lose the war. If Amoonguss runs Sludge Bomb, it won't be able to stop non-mega Altaria to setup. Facade Fire Blast Altaria can actually 1v1 Tentacruel like shown in this example replay. So the only counter to the EQ Facade set is Scizor and the only counter to the Facade Fire Blast set is Nidoqueen, who is actually more of a check since it has no recovery move. It is also important to note that steel types have to fear the potential Magneton.
However, Altaria often needs to be burned in order to sweep with its Facade sets, and also generally needs to be burned in order to put the mons it needs to be weakened in range of it, and is often hard stopped by Scizor's Bullet Punch anw. Thus, even though Altaria can setup pretty easily thanks to its amazing bulk and defensive typing, it struggles a bit to put itself in a position where it can sweep, and its most threatening sets are also more difficult to build with, so it definitely isn't a free mon that works on itself, it needs its user to play well with it, but the fear it leaves on team building and the fact that it can win any match-up by itself given that it has the right set / the player makes the right plays leads me to think it is too much for UU and deserves to be banned.
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I am genuinely confused. It is clear that most are towards no ban. And yes, it is relevant to point out how scizors suspect will affect this one. Scizor possesses itself as the best Altaria check in UU, for it having a priority with immense power. Since it holds a 40% usage, most Altarias will get checked by scizor. And I am going to disagree with your argument about Amoonguss. Amoonguss runs its trademark status inducer, in Spore. This gives Amoonguss the chance to kill it with the clear smog/sludge bomb. A good player would keep their steel/scizor/amoonguss healthy or at the very least alive. Most well built teams do have a way to play around and beat altaria, losing to it thqh is your fault. I have played this tier since the mid of ORAS so I have a clear idea of the Metagame.
 
So with Mega Altaria staying i guess the next logical step is to test Mimikyu. Now i can see why its busted no pun intended, it becomes very difficult to handle spikes offense. it got banned 3 mins from being dropped and its completely understandable to no interfere with the current test, so i guess its time now to test mimikyu to see if it fits the tier or if its too much, all we can go off is based on speculation from its ability and moves and we lack knowledge to see how it actually performs. this action doesnt have to effect immediately to give time for UU open but its logical to go to this before we test the weather abilities
 
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