I think it would be best to test drizzle and drought as a pair, as they have interesting interactions with eachother. Sun could end up underwhelming in a meta where it has to directly compete with rain, or vice versa. The meta as a whole has also changed a lot since sun last took center stage.
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np: SM UU Stage 10.2 - Bug A Boo (Scizor remains UU)
- Thread starter Pearl
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IMO, we don’t need to bother with suspecting Drought, at least not before Drizzle. We already know that MDoom+Drought is what’s broken, and nothing about the tier rn is gonna change that short of a complex ban.
Now that Lucha and MPert aren’t UU (thank fucking god), I’d like to see Drizzle get its opportunity. I guess we could do both, but I don’t see in what universe Drought isn’t still broke af
E:fucking sniped
Now that Lucha and MPert aren’t UU (thank fucking god), I’d like to see Drizzle get its opportunity. I guess we could do both, but I don’t see in what universe Drought isn’t still broke af
E:fucking sniped
I like the idea of two powerful play styles balancing each other out, but a problem still occurs with Drought Doom against a non-weather team. We’d still have to QB Mega-Doom in this scenario.
I'm not 100% sure about that, for a few reasons...
1. Doom/Drought never got a public suspect, just a council vote that occurred roughly two years ago.
2. The metagame when Doom was banned was very different from the current one. Some notable trends that might change Doom's viability include the huge bump in Scarf Krook usage, Mega Altaria's ascendancy, Terrakion and Infernape usage growing and introduction of other faster 'mons like Mega Manectric.
3. Even during the height of Doom hype, it consistently struggled with more offensive teams once Flame Charge stopped being a surprise.
4. Doom is demonstrably not broken (and arguably isn't even particularly good, though I've seen a few teams where it works alright) without Drought backing it up, so adding in an additional weather element makes running Doom even more of a liability.
With all that being said it might still be really unhealthy alongside Drought, but my inclination would be to first hold a public suspect on Drizzle and Drought (with Doom still legal), and then decide either as a council or with a subsequent test if Doom under Drought deserves the ban it's had for these past two years. That said, we haven't formally decided yet how we'll handle it, so if more people have strong opinions on this one I'd love to hear them.
1. Doom/Drought never got a public suspect, just a council vote that occurred roughly two years ago.
2. The metagame when Doom was banned was very different from the current one. Some notable trends that might change Doom's viability include the huge bump in Scarf Krook usage, Mega Altaria's ascendancy, Terrakion and Infernape usage growing and introduction of other faster 'mons like Mega Manectric.
3. Even during the height of Doom hype, it consistently struggled with more offensive teams once Flame Charge stopped being a surprise.
4. Doom is demonstrably not broken (and arguably isn't even particularly good, though I've seen a few teams where it works alright) without Drought backing it up, so adding in an additional weather element makes running Doom even more of a liability.
With all that being said it might still be really unhealthy alongside Drought, but my inclination would be to first hold a public suspect on Drizzle and Drought (with Doom still legal), and then decide either as a council or with a subsequent test if Doom under Drought deserves the ban it's had for these past two years. That said, we haven't formally decided yet how we'll handle it, so if more people have strong opinions on this one I'd love to hear them.
For me i would love a suspect on Drought/Drizzle. As i said in my post the meta has change significantly. Its not my place to say if they are fine for the tier but it is my place to say lets try. Politoed is the Drizzle mon since Pelipper is OU and i feel its not as good of a pivot as Peli is. If Drought/ Drizzle stay im content to have a Council test on mega doom, but echoing the points Hogg made i feel like it won't be overbearing as we all think since what he said was correct. Doom needs weather to function and we can do a callback to gen 5 with weather wars now hail having Slush Rush
This is speculation of course and im fine with what happens in this tier. i adore UU and whether or not we test these weathers is fine by me
#Freethefrog
This is speculation of course and im fine with what happens in this tier. i adore UU and whether or not we test these weathers is fine by me
#Freethefrog
Houndoom is nothing, you know what's broken? Venusaur. Growth + immunity to toxic + giga drain makes it the perfect sweeper. You could run sets that let you be mixed, you cant get toxiced by defensive teams, and you recover it all back with giga. It's too much.
On the flipside, I just looked at the list of swift swim users. They are the worst pokemon ive ever seen. That is all.
On the flipside, I just looked at the list of swift swim users. They are the worst pokemon ive ever seen. That is all.
Oof. At least with Scizor not banned we don't have a 100% chance of 104804701740144105916017070329364016408107194710749183028491 suspects in this world. Fortunately, even if sciz got banned, we still have Doublade, Double mega Steel and many others for malt and Latias.
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until a steel comes in to wall it to hell and back. If I see Drought unbanned here, I might see Scarf Gardevoir being a thing to RK sun squads.
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I think this will happen more likely than Sun, with most of the rain sweepers being largely "mediocre". (btw kabutops would actually be meta LOL)
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I still think we should go through with a MAlt suspect. Yeah, it's not the single most oppressive force or whatever, but I feel like it's certainly the strongest mega in the tier and if we're really wanting to take some pressure off using Scizor as much as we do, taking a look at one of the biggest things it counters might have some results.
So, I voted ban on Scizor and the outcome ended up being Scizor staying in UU, which I wasn't exactly surprised about. By no means am I upset about the outcome of suspect test, as I said in my earlier post, I just wanted the community to come to a decision for good reasons and I really loved the discussion that was sparked during this grace period. Seeing as there is a lot of discussion on weather being a potential test in UU I'd like to chip in, though this is going to be all speculation. I will admit I wasn't around when either weather was available in the tier so it isn;t a subject I can give a concise opinion on.
Starting with Drought I am aware that the debacle of Mega Houndoom being unbanned and Drought being banned has already occurred, but I think we still should suspect it. I agree Mega Doom under sun will probably be absurd, but why should a whole playstyle be potentially invalidated for this case. An example being Aurora Veil, a playstyle which has allowed several Mons to have a niche. Alolan Ninetales was deemed banworthy for its ability to set it in one turn. The whole playstyle of Aurora Veil could have just been banned instead, but it gives Alolan Sandslash and Aurorus the small niche it has. Arguably this niche might completely fall off with screens being so prevalent right now and Linoone now being a viable option on these playstyles instead. Regardless of this, I don't believe simply ignoring it due to it being a 'waste of time' is the correct move.
So, in a scenario that Drought isn't deemed broken and allows several Pokemon to become viable. Should we not consider it to be a welcoming factor to the tier for the expense of potentially just one Mon? I can assume that Ninetales and Venusaur will regain a niche in the tier as they previously did. Maybe even Pokemon like Torkoal, Sawsbuck, Leafeon will gain some form of usage because of Drought. I obviously don't know whether Sun is going to be broken or healthy for the tier as I myself never experienced it for the brief time it was available. This would be something I would personally be looking forward to experiencing. While it may be even harder to tell if this is the case if Mega Doom was still allowed during the suspect phase, I personally believe it should be kept on ladder during the suspect phase. Obviously this may require the community to be willing to test teams both with and without Doom to come to the conclusion which one is the issue and if the tier is better off having this playstyle in the game at all. Ofc this was a bit of a complex ban so I assume it would be left up to the council if MegaDoom stays if Drought is freed, unless we get to give some form of opinion during the voting stage. If this is the case it would be something I'd be perfectly fine with.
The way I see it we either:
1. Free Drought making a playstyle and more Mons have a niche at the expense of Mega Houndoom as long as it is has a positive influence on the tier.
2. Drought is freed and Mega Houndoom stays under the small chance it isn't an issue due to reasons Hogg mentioned in his post.
3. Drought remains banned due to it being the issue and an unhealthy presence.
As far Drizzle I think it is a bit less of a controversial topic for me, due to there being no known complications of a Mon with said weather. So, the first thing to note is there is only one Drizzle Pokemon in UU being Politoed and it really doesn't seem like it in itself is going to be all that amazing. Personally, I think the biggest problem would be the rain abusers that can take advantage of 7 turns of rain. While the tier did lose MegaPert, which honestly would have been enough for me to solely ban Drizzle, it gains access to Kingdra as a new rain abuser. Now on paper this Pokemon seems like it will prove to be very threatening under rain with there being a limited number of checks: Blissey, Primarina, Empoleon. Specs will most likely be the main set it runs, but there is nothing stopping it running Waterium Z as a nuke for the latter two. Nothing in the tier can revenge it easily especially with scarf Latias being out sped in rain. It seems like it could be a big issue for the tier on paper, which is my biggest concern. Rain also still has access to a lot of other viable abusers like Ludicolo, Seismitoad, Kabutops and maybe Qwilfish. All of these can be just as threatening with the speed boost, but I don't think nearly as oppressive as Kingdra would be. Obviously some other Pokemon may become better such as Tornadus and some Thunder using electric types potentially. This would be something I'd love to see as a result of this suspect. I have pretty mixed feelings about the fate of Drizzle in the tier. We may even reach the conclusion where Kingdra might prove to be too much if the playstyle is freed and result in it being banned instead.
As far as how testing should go, I really am not that bothered. If both are done at the same time it should be fine as long as enough time period is provided to establish a firm enough opinion on the two on top of the Mega Houndoom situation. If you choose to do them separately I am also not opposed to that decision if it doesn't contradict with the councils timing of events before gen 8 is released. I won't touch on Mega Altaria potential suspect, but if you choose to do it or not I wouldn't be opposed. As it stands i'd vote no ban for that Mon for reasons I'd get into if the time comes. On a side not I hope everyone is looking forward to the new gen 8 news tomorrow ^_^
TL DR
I think both Drizzle and Drought should be tested with it potentially giving a lot of Pokemon a niche in the tier. I think Mega Doom should be kept on ladder during the suspect phase to determine what the real issue is. I am all for either weather being freed, but only if they don't become an unhealthy aspect for the tier.
Starting with Drought I am aware that the debacle of Mega Houndoom being unbanned and Drought being banned has already occurred, but I think we still should suspect it. I agree Mega Doom under sun will probably be absurd, but why should a whole playstyle be potentially invalidated for this case. An example being Aurora Veil, a playstyle which has allowed several Mons to have a niche. Alolan Ninetales was deemed banworthy for its ability to set it in one turn. The whole playstyle of Aurora Veil could have just been banned instead, but it gives Alolan Sandslash and Aurorus the small niche it has. Arguably this niche might completely fall off with screens being so prevalent right now and Linoone now being a viable option on these playstyles instead. Regardless of this, I don't believe simply ignoring it due to it being a 'waste of time' is the correct move.
The way I see it we either:
1. Free Drought making a playstyle and more Mons have a niche at the expense of Mega Houndoom as long as it is has a positive influence on the tier.
2. Drought is freed and Mega Houndoom stays under the small chance it isn't an issue due to reasons Hogg mentioned in his post.
3. Drought remains banned due to it being the issue and an unhealthy presence.
As far as how testing should go, I really am not that bothered. If both are done at the same time it should be fine as long as enough time period is provided to establish a firm enough opinion on the two on top of the Mega Houndoom situation. If you choose to do them separately I am also not opposed to that decision if it doesn't contradict with the councils timing of events before gen 8 is released. I won't touch on Mega Altaria potential suspect, but if you choose to do it or not I wouldn't be opposed. As it stands i'd vote no ban for that Mon for reasons I'd get into if the time comes. On a side not I hope everyone is looking forward to the new gen 8 news tomorrow ^_^
TL DR
I think both Drizzle and Drought should be tested with it potentially giving a lot of Pokemon a niche in the tier. I think Mega Doom should be kept on ladder during the suspect phase to determine what the real issue is. I am all for either weather being freed, but only if they don't become an unhealthy aspect for the tier.
You guys are really underestimating Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutops, sd + z superpower + 2 stabs is super hard to wall honestly
No steel likes to take +2 hpfire and empoleon takes alot from giga drain
That said i have nothing more to add than id like to show support for suspect of both drizzle and drought at same time.
Both weathers have a very high chance of affecting each other so seeing how they interact with each other in one metagame is better to pass a fairer judgement.
Idk about the old meta because i only started playing recently again (i actually got reqs for suspect test but my noobish ass didnt know u had to make an alt with the name uuss before it but alas its not like my vote mattered) but i imagine it was probably very different than now similarly to how other tiers were super different a year+ ago. It basically been almost forever since UU had drought
Hello everyone, I broke my usual lurking because the prospect of a future suspect for the weathers got me quite interested so I like to share my thoughts. Rain as an whole is very unexplored as Drizzle was banned on the beginning of the meta not without reason though, on the beginning we had and still have some pretty powerful abusers, not only mons with swift swin but stuff who could use and abuse the perks of rain like boosted water damage and lower fire damage, eventually it was banned leaving it open for the 3 other weathers, at first sun wasn't considered broken enough until M-Doom which was banned till the positions were reversed, sun was banned and M-Doom was freed because the consensus was Doom wasn't (and isn't) that good without sun but doom+other breakers like Venu a Z-Tails had the potential to overwhelm teams to easily which in part it wasn't wrong as many teams won't usually carry a mon which nullifies weather or would bring his own weather setter against something which could hit them for huge damage, however with the possibility of the introduction of both it could be a good way to test waters and see if the two dominant weathers help keep each other in check.
I still hold some reservations though mostly about rain, sure we have some good mons to keep the both in check plus the weathers also help keep each other from staying too long, still rain has too many abusers, Volcanion, Primarina, Thunder, Hurricane their Z-Version plus mons which benefit from halved fire damage like bulky grass and steel types and the usual swift swimmers are just a few for rain, sun meanwhile is more limited, it has the usual stuff like Doom, Tails, Venu and more niches choloro users, sun in my opinion is more easily to control even though they have two decent setters one being able to use the sun for itself I believe the meta has developed to a point were they could be more easily handled, I might be wrong and they could still be too good for the tier, however I believe they at least deserve a proper suspect together, just to see if they still are a problem or if one or both are manageable enough to stay in UU.
I still hold some reservations though mostly about rain, sure we have some good mons to keep the both in check plus the weathers also help keep each other from staying too long, still rain has too many abusers, Volcanion, Primarina, Thunder, Hurricane their Z-Version plus mons which benefit from halved fire damage like bulky grass and steel types and the usual swift swimmers are just a few for rain, sun meanwhile is more limited, it has the usual stuff like Doom, Tails, Venu and more niches choloro users, sun in my opinion is more easily to control even though they have two decent setters one being able to use the sun for itself I believe the meta has developed to a point were they could be more easily handled, I might be wrong and they could still be too good for the tier, however I believe they at least deserve a proper suspect together, just to see if they still are a problem or if one or both are manageable enough to stay in UU.
I think we should suspect test drought and if Houndoom is too strong under sun then ban Drought and not Houndoom. Houndoom-mega simply has a greater niche in the tier than Sun as it is able to offensively check Celebi while being hard to switch into and generally unprepared for. He may not see much usage but it is currently ranked in the B tier whereas I think Drought without Houndoom is a pretty whack playstyle that deserves C rank.
I strongly disagree with this. Mega Houndoom is a niche mega in Underused and faces a lot of competition from both Hydreigon and Nasty Plot Infernape, even if Mega Houndoom is faster than this Pokemon, it lacks of utility. Like if you want a good user of Taunt, Taunt + Roost Hydreigon is way better and not weak to Stealth Rock while Nasty Plot Infernape is most of the time a better Stallbreaker than Mega Houndoom (Mega Doom can pressure Mega Altaria but Infernape is way better to deal with Blissey and Quagsire). Sun team was definitively a nice playstyle when it was allowed in Underused. NP Ninetales with Firium Z paired with Venusaur was a great and effective core which had in my opinion a way better niche than Mega Houndoom atm. Like if we look at May's stats, Mega Houndoom got barely 1% of usage which is bad. I know usage doesn't define the viability but the fact that Mega Houndoom was not played at all (if I'm not mistaken) in UUPL also shows the fact that Mega Houndoom is pretty eh atm.
That's the thing, we've tried both already. Neither has much of a place in the tier without the other. That said, I wanna see Firium Ninetails get its opportunity in the tier, it got banned soon after gaining traction
Well looking at 2017 stats, sun got 0.6% usage in September, October and November and in December 1.2% probably because of some RMT / SSD Replay / Pokeaim video and is generally a match-up based playstyle which has only two potential abusers, Venusaur and Ninetales and brings nothing to UU, whereas Houndoom, while hard to fit in a team, is a much more decent addition to the tier that provides a fast mon capable of revenge killing many threats like Gengar, Cobalion, Scizor while being not having much safe switch-ins outside of Roost Hydreigon and Blissey.
As someone who's pretty new to the tier, my viewpoint is more of that of an outsiders. I've played off an on for about a month and below will be what I've managed to extrapolate so far.
Scizor is a meta defining threat, that checks a lot of other meta defining threats (altaria, terrakion, aerodactyl, latias and hydreigon also to a lesser extent). This has some huge implications for what could have happened had it been banned, as it checks the 2 other s rank mons, and 3/4ths of a+. Especially terrakion and altaria because those mons just destroy the rest of the metagame, terrak has no counters and is fast enough to not be bothered by opposing offense, altaria sweeps very effortlessly vs a lot of teams and vs bulky offense the only real answer i can think of is amoonguss, which is pretty easy to lure regardless. I could go on to mention all the unpredictability vs sets, or just how powerful it is, how its already been here for almost 3 years but others have already done it in ways that would have been much more thoughout than i could hope for with my minimal experience.
That said, i think a lot about this suspect test is determined about the timeline of the new games coming out. In a world where scizor is banned and mons like terrakion or altaria get big boosts and are deemed worthy of a suspect test theres a very finite amount of time left to do those things. Suspects take what a month, month and a week? As it stands sword and shield are only 5 months and week away, which means that you really couldnt do a suspect let the tier sit for a couple weeks then do another. At most you get 3 suspects in which would leave the tier incomplete if you will. I like to think that this is one of the main reasons why the vote came back as no and that is understandable. The average ladder player won't be going back to the old gen to reap the rewards of these suspects anyway. Last gen in ou, there was a mega sableye suspect test that had hardly any voters because it happened less than a month before sun and moon came out. Everybody is going to be too hyped about the new meta and the drops to have the time to sit on the meta post suspect. Nothing actually changed in ou because everyone was riding the hype train.
But anyway what id like to see happen upcoming, altaria suspect, probably drizzle, terrakion maybe. Ill take your word on houndoom being too good for a just regular drought suspect, ive seen some of the calcs nothing stopping that thing except blissey.
That's my 2 cents.
Scizor is a meta defining threat, that checks a lot of other meta defining threats (altaria, terrakion, aerodactyl, latias and hydreigon also to a lesser extent). This has some huge implications for what could have happened had it been banned, as it checks the 2 other s rank mons, and 3/4ths of a+. Especially terrakion and altaria because those mons just destroy the rest of the metagame, terrak has no counters and is fast enough to not be bothered by opposing offense, altaria sweeps very effortlessly vs a lot of teams and vs bulky offense the only real answer i can think of is amoonguss, which is pretty easy to lure regardless. I could go on to mention all the unpredictability vs sets, or just how powerful it is, how its already been here for almost 3 years but others have already done it in ways that would have been much more thoughout than i could hope for with my minimal experience.
That said, i think a lot about this suspect test is determined about the timeline of the new games coming out. In a world where scizor is banned and mons like terrakion or altaria get big boosts and are deemed worthy of a suspect test theres a very finite amount of time left to do those things. Suspects take what a month, month and a week? As it stands sword and shield are only 5 months and week away, which means that you really couldnt do a suspect let the tier sit for a couple weeks then do another. At most you get 3 suspects in which would leave the tier incomplete if you will. I like to think that this is one of the main reasons why the vote came back as no and that is understandable. The average ladder player won't be going back to the old gen to reap the rewards of these suspects anyway. Last gen in ou, there was a mega sableye suspect test that had hardly any voters because it happened less than a month before sun and moon came out. Everybody is going to be too hyped about the new meta and the drops to have the time to sit on the meta post suspect. Nothing actually changed in ou because everyone was riding the hype train.
But anyway what id like to see happen upcoming, altaria suspect, probably drizzle, terrakion maybe. Ill take your word on houndoom being too good for a just regular drought suspect, ive seen some of the calcs nothing stopping that thing except blissey.
That's my 2 cents.
Is that even a thing? Does Terrakion run Groundium Z? like... EVER?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! And if it does, terrakion better get ready for being walled by Gligar, or Mega Slowbro. My opinions in sun are pretty much the same. I STILL am gonna value Choice Scarf Gardevoir to RK Venusaur.
So, I voted ban on Scizor and the outcome ended up being Scizor staying in UU, which I wasn't exactly surprised about. By no means am I upset about the outcome of suspect test, as I said in my earlier post, I just wanted the community to come to a decision for good reasons and I really loved the discussion that was sparked during this grace period. Seeing as there is a lot of discussion on weather being a potential test in UU I'd like to chip in, though this is going to be all speculation. I will admit I wasn't around when either weather was available in the tier so it isn;t a subject I can give a concise opinion on.
Starting with Drought I am aware that the debacle of Mega Houndoom being unbanned and Drought being banned has already occurred, but I think we still should suspect it. I agree Mega Doom under sun will probably be absurd, but why should a whole playstyle be potentially invalidated for this case. An example being Aurora Veil, a playstyle which has allowed several Mons to have a niche. Alolan Ninetales was deemed banworthy for its ability to set it in one turn. The whole playstyle of Aurora Veil could have just been banned instead, but it gives Alolan Sandslash and Aurorus the small niche it has. Arguably this niche might completely fall off with screens being so prevalent right now and Linoone now being a viable option on these playstyles instead. Regardless of this, I don't believe simply ignoring it due to it being a 'waste of time' is the correct move.
So, in a scenario that Drought isn't deemed broken and allows several Pokemon to become viable. Should we not consider it to be a welcoming factor to the tier for the expense of potentially just one Mon? I can assume that Ninetales and Venusaur will regain a niche in the tier as they previously did. Maybe even Pokemon like Torkoal, Sawsbuck, Leafeon will gain some form of usage because of Drought. I obviously don't know whether Sun is going to be broken or healthy for the tier as I myself never experienced it for the brief time it was available. This would be something I would personally be looking forward to experiencing. While it may be even harder to tell if this is the case if Mega Doom was still allowed during the suspect phase, I personally believe it should be kept on ladder during the suspect phase. Obviously this may require the community to be willing to test teams both with and without Doom to come to the conclusion which one is the issue and if the tier is better off having this playstyle in the game at all. Ofc this was a bit of a complex ban so I assume it would be left up to the council if MegaDoom stays if Drought is freed, unless we get to give some form of opinion during the voting stage. If this is the case it would be something I'd be perfectly fine with.
The way I see it we either:
1. Free Drought making a playstyle and more Mons have a niche at the expense of Mega Houndoom as long as it is has a positive influence on the tier.
2. Drought is freed and Mega Houndoom stays under the small chance it isn't an issue due to reasons Hogg mentioned in his post.
3. Drought remains banned due to it being the issue and an unhealthy presence.
As far Drizzle I think it is a bit less of a controversial topic for me, due to there being no known complications of a Mon with said weather. So, the first thing to note is there is only one Drizzle Pokemon in UU being Politoed and it really doesn't seem like it in itself is going to be all that amazing. Personally, I think the biggest problem would be the rain abusers that can take advantage of 7 turns of rain. While the tier did lose MegaPert, which honestly would have been enough for me to solely ban Drizzle, it gains access to Kingdra as a new rain abuser. Now on paper this Pokemon seems like it will prove to be very threatening under rain with there being a limited number of checks: Blissey, Primarina, Empoleon. Specs will most likely be the main set it runs, but there is nothing stopping it running Waterium Z as a nuke for the latter two. Nothing in the tier can revenge it easily especially with scarf Latias being out sped in rain. It seems like it could be a big issue for the tier on paper, which is my biggest concern. Rain also still has access to a lot of other viable abusers like Ludicolo, Seismitoad, Kabutops and maybe Qwilfish. All of these can be just as threatening with the speed boost, but I don't think nearly as oppressive as Kingdra would be. Obviously some other Pokemon may become better such as Tornadus and some Thunder using electric types potentially. This would be something I'd love to see as a result of this suspect. I have pretty mixed feelings about the fate of Drizzle in the tier. We may even reach the conclusion where Kingdra might prove to be too much if the playstyle is freed and result in it being banned instead.
As far as how testing should go, I really am not that bothered. If both are done at the same time it should be fine as long as enough time period is provided to establish a firm enough opinion on the two on top of the Mega Houndoom situation. If you choose to do them separately I am also not opposed to that decision if it doesn't contradict with the councils timing of events before gen 8 is released. I won't touch on Mega Altaria potential suspect, but if you choose to do it or not I wouldn't be opposed. As it stands i'd vote no ban for that Mon for reasons I'd get into if the time comes. On a side not I hope everyone is looking forward to the new gen 8 news tomorrow ^_^
TL DR
I think both Drizzle and Drought should be tested with it potentially giving a lot of Pokemon a niche in the tier. I think Mega Doom should be kept on ladder during the suspect phase to determine what the real issue is. I am all for either weather being freed, but only if they don't become an unhealthy aspect for the tier.
smh Twilight sleeping on QWILFISH RAIN. Name something that fuckin counters that mon, I'll wait. Dont forget it runs Swords Dance, Liquidation, Poison Jab, AND EXPLOSION. Beat that
So, I voted ban on Scizor and the outcome ended up being Scizor staying in UU, which I wasn't exactly surprised about. By no means am I upset about the outcome of suspect test, as I said in my earlier post, I just wanted the community to come to a decision for good reasons and I really loved the discussion that was sparked during this grace period. Seeing as there is a lot of discussion on weather being a potential test in UU I'd like to chip in, though this is going to be all speculation. I will admit I wasn't around when either weather was available in the tier so it isn;t a subject I can give a concise opinion on.
Starting with Drought I am aware that the debacle of Mega Houndoom being unbanned and Drought being banned has already occurred, but I think we still should suspect it. I agree Mega Doom under sun will probably be absurd, but why should a whole playstyle be potentially invalidated for this case. An example being Aurora Veil, a playstyle which has allowed several Mons to have a niche. Alolan Ninetales was deemed banworthy for its ability to set it in one turn. The whole playstyle of Aurora Veil could have just been banned instead, but it gives Alolan Sandslash and Aurorus the small niche it has. Arguably this niche might completely fall off with screens being so prevalent right now and Linoone now being a viable option on these playstyles instead. Regardless of this, I don't believe simply ignoring it due to it being a 'waste of time' is the correct move.
So, in a scenario that Drought isn't deemed broken and allows several Pokemon to become viable. Should we not consider it to be a welcoming factor to the tier for the expense of potentially just one Mon? I can assume that Ninetales and Venusaur will regain a niche in the tier as they previously did. Maybe even Pokemon like Torkoal, Sawsbuck, Leafeon will gain some form of usage because of Drought. I obviously don't know whether Sun is going to be broken or healthy for the tier as I myself never experienced it for the brief time it was available. This would be something I would personally be looking forward to experiencing. While it may be even harder to tell if this is the case if Mega Doom was still allowed during the suspect phase, I personally believe it should be kept on ladder during the suspect phase. Obviously this may require the community to be willing to test teams both with and without Doom to come to the conclusion which one is the issue and if the tier is better off having this playstyle in the game at all. Ofc this was a bit of a complex ban so I assume it would be left up to the council if MegaDoom stays if Drought is freed, unless we get to give some form of opinion during the voting stage. If this is the case it would be something I'd be perfectly fine with.
The way I see it we either:
1. Free Drought making a playstyle and more Mons have a niche at the expense of Mega Houndoom as long as it is has a positive influence on the tier.
2. Drought is freed and Mega Houndoom stays under the small chance it isn't an issue due to reasons Hogg mentioned in his post.
3. Drought remains banned due to it being the issue and an unhealthy presence.
As far Drizzle I think it is a bit less of a controversial topic for me, due to there being no known complications of a Mon with said weather. So, the first thing to note is there is only one Drizzle Pokemon in UU being Politoed and it really doesn't seem like it in itself is going to be all that amazing. Personally, I think the biggest problem would be the rain abusers that can take advantage of 7 turns of rain. While the tier did lose MegaPert, which honestly would have been enough for me to solely ban Drizzle, it gains access to Kingdra as a new rain abuser. Now on paper this Pokemon seems like it will prove to be very threatening under rain with there being a limited number of checks: Blissey, Primarina, Empoleon. Specs will most likely be the main set it runs, but there is nothing stopping it running Waterium Z as a nuke for the latter two. Nothing in the tier can revenge it easily especially with scarf Latias being out sped in rain. It seems like it could be a big issue for the tier on paper, which is my biggest concern. Rain also still has access to a lot of other viable abusers like Ludicolo, Seismitoad, Kabutops and maybe Qwilfish. All of these can be just as threatening with the speed boost, but I don't think nearly as oppressive as Kingdra would be. Obviously some other Pokemon may become better such as Tornadus and some Thunder using electric types potentially. This would be something I'd love to see as a result of this suspect. I have pretty mixed feelings about the fate of Drizzle in the tier. We may even reach the conclusion where Kingdra might prove to be too much if the playstyle is freed and result in it being banned instead.
As far as how testing should go, I really am not that bothered. If both are done at the same time it should be fine as long as enough time period is provided to establish a firm enough opinion on the two on top of the Mega Houndoom situation. If you choose to do them separately I am also not opposed to that decision if it doesn't contradict with the councils timing of events before gen 8 is released. I won't touch on Mega Altaria potential suspect, but if you choose to do it or not I wouldn't be opposed. As it stands i'd vote no ban for that Mon for reasons I'd get into if the time comes. On a side not I hope everyone is looking forward to the new gen 8 news tomorrow ^_^
TL DR
I think both Drizzle and Drought should be tested with it potentially giving a lot of Pokemon a niche in the tier. I think Mega Doom should be kept on ladder during the suspect phase to determine what the real issue is. I am all for either weather being freed, but only if they don't become an unhealthy aspect for the tier.
Drizzle should still be banned simply because UU does not have the current Pokemon to handle the offensive pressure Swift Swimmers pose. Manual rain currently is held in check by requiring at least two Damp Rock Rain setters (two that come to mind are Tornadus and Rotom-M) and Rain Dance Kingdra to run consistently, though some variations do exist. Offloading rain-setting duties to Politoed relieves the playstyle of the aforementioned restriction and makes the playstyle even harder to build against. From my experience, a core of CB Kabutops, LO Kingdra, and Shell Smash Omastar beats over the three main checks Twilight noted:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Primarina in Rain: 282-333 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Empoleon: 162-191 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 331-390 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Freeing Drizzle now will just make the playstyle harder to prepare for. Trading 2 rain setting slots for 1 Politoed frees up better options to beat Empoleon and Blissey.
I would personally welcome a suspect test on both weathers. I think Drizzle especially deserves to be tested given how long ago it was banned and how much different the metagame is now. In my opinion, at absolute best, teams of either weather are going to be solid counterpick styles for certain opponents, performing well in certain matchups and being very hard to work with in other matchups as opposed to being super consistent and viable to use more than occasionally. There is a slight concern for me that if this is the case that they maybe contribute to making matchup more of an issue within the tier (not that I think it’s a big problem currently), but I don’t think this should prevent a test certainly, and then the test can be used to judge whether this is the case.
We have so many pokemon that can answer to drizzle abusers, such as Toxicroak, Jellicent, Gastrodon, etc. Therefore, I don't see any problem in allowing drizzle into the tier. On the other hand, Drought CAN be overwhelming with Houndoom-Mega. Mega Doom in my opinion, insures atleast 2-3 KO's in the sun with it's NP Dual Stab + Sludgebomb set. Sooooooo, yeah, I'm with the UU Community suspecting the weathers, I just think Drizzle has a higher chance of getting unbanned while Drought is something else.
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