Metagame NP: RU Stage 2 - Lights Out (September shifts, Heracross banned)

[phantom]

After a 6-3 pro-ban majority vote, Machamp is now banned from SS RU!

ban: ajna, feliburn, mraldo, averardo, bebo, atomicllamas
do not ban: evigaro, phantom, odr

reasoning

Machamp’s Guts Flame Orb set has turned it into the single most dangerous breaker in the tier. Its expansive physical movepool and excellent attack stat leaves it without any viable counters. Machamp can either employ Heavy Slam to defeat Sableye or use Bullet Punch in its final slot, allowing it to threaten faster threats such as Sneasel. Machamp’s raw power and invulnerability to other status makes it impossible for defensive teams to handle, and because of Machamp’s good bulk, it’s even capable of trading against offensive teams, assuring it’s never useless in any given matchup. Even in matchups against more offensive teams, there are plenty of pivots in the tier capable of supporting Machamp, making it possible for it to excel in even the most difficult of matchups. The lack of counters along with the relatively low power creep in RU makes Machamp far too much to handle.

 

[phantom]

almost forgot

tagging Marty and The Immortal to ban Machamp from the SS RU ladder. Thanks!

 

[AllTerrainVen0moth]

Huh. I didnt see that coming

 

[meamdefinitely4]

Can we get Vileplume in RUBL pls

 

[AllTerrainVen0moth]

Can we get Vileplume in RUBL pls

Nah, If you want a broken sun abuser to be banned, we should ban Heliolisk.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

Can we get Vileplume in RUBL pls

Why? For its sun capabilities? Defensive niche? strength sap? Vileplume is fine in the tier. It gives sun teams some defensive backbone and non sun team a good physical blanket. Given than this tier is notorious for its fire types, I don't see it as a problematic mon

 

[meamdefinitely4]

i want vilepume for rubl cause it has great moves in giga drain, moonblast, and sludge bomb, and it can use moonlight and toxic for drainage and recovery. Besides, Scrafty is a great teammate for Rock moves and other high powered attacking moves

 

[thundergoos]

i want vilepume for rubl cause it has great moves in giga drain, moonblast, and sludge bomb, and it can use moonlight and toxic for drainage and recovery. Besides, Scrafty is a great teammate for Rock moves and other high powered attacking moves

Just having great moves and reliable recovery doesn’t make something broken. Plume is erased by its checks (and mons with good coverage) as easily as it can do work, and it‘s not really lacking Im defensive counterplay. It doesn’t constrain teambuilding as much as something like Machamp did. Plume + Scrafty have good synergy together, yeah, but so do a lot of mons that are manageable. Simply being good and having good options isn’t reason enough to ban something. To be banworthy, it has to have a level of uncompetitive influence on the meta, be broken/unhealthy in some way, or constrict teambuilding enough to always be a factor for consideration in the builder. Plume is good in the meta, no doubt, but it’s not banworthy imo.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

i want vilepume for rubl cause it has great moves in giga drain, moonblast, and sludge bomb, and it can use moonlight and toxic for drainage and recovery. Besides, Scrafty is a great teammate for Rock moves and other high powered attacking moves

So, you described why it is a good mon. Could you describe why it is broken? Or what playstile it opresses?
In a tier where fire types are so prevalent and there is a lot of offense running rampant, Vileplume finds itself overwhelmed and unable to check everything it wants to, and while bulky, it has to invest heavily to be effective, leaving it open to one end of the spectrum.

If anything, veil should be looked a bit more closely with next month drops

 

[meamdefinitely4]

How can I get Plume banned though
I wanna try

 

[Master Chief]

How can I get Plume banned though
I wanna try

tko

 

[kakaks]

why are you guys talking so much abt veil? the most viable setter, vaniluxe, is nubl

 

[Katy]

why are you guys talking so much abt veil? the most viable setter, vaniluxe, is nubl

Just because the most viable setter is NUBL does not automatically mean its bad, in fact a lot of mons are decent in the above tier whereas they are too good for the tier below. Vanilluxe in fact is the best Aurora Veil-Setter in RU since it has the access to Snow Warning + Aurora Veil Combination, Basically the 2 in 1 Slot scenario. Vanilluxe also profits from a good offensive typing as well with threatening mons with a strong stab boosted-blizzard and also taunt to disrupt the defogging of Veil. In Fact Xatu, which admittingly has Magic Bounce, also can't Defog the Veil away safely. Therefore Vanilluxe is the best option for Veil-HO in RU currently. I think such questions belong btw in this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/swsh-ru-short-questions-and-short-answers.3658496/ as this thread here is for the metagame discussions reserved. But hopefully i was able to answer your question.

 

[Aquarius Ghost ❤]

How can I get Plume banned though
I wanna try

Only 1 way, make the usage of plume in UU rise up. Then plume would be Ranked as, "UU." Vileplume will probs never be banned from Ru, mainly because of the fact that Ru has too many checks and counters to it. From there, plume would not be allowed use in lower tiers, however, it would be allowed in UU and upper tiers.(ou,ubers, etc.)

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Or just make a team that can better deal with Vileplume???

Seriously, that Plume+Scrafty core you mentioned get dominated by offensive Flying-types. Use Braviary or Charizard and all your Vileplume-related problems will disappear.

 

[Feliburn]

Hello RU players, I've come today to give some life to the current NP thread.

Yes, vileplume right now is one of the best defensive glues in the tier, it's able to easily handle the majority of the physical attackers and bulky waters in the tier, and thanks to the new move, Corrosive Gas, it's able to remove items from mons like Porygon2, making it easier for other teammates to break through teams.

However, as mentioned above, Vileplume has quite a good number of checks in the tier, Charizard, Centiskorch, Duraludon, Braviary, Drapion, Frosmoth, etc. It's not hard to use a pokemon that's able to get past Vileplume as it's usually forced to wall a lot of mons.

How can I get Plume banned though
I wanna try

Usually, in order to get a pokemon banned, there must be an objective consensus regarding the mon. If it's too good for the metagame, you'll see some discussion in this thread, the RU room, or the RU Discord server. Then, with the community input, the council takes action regarding the pokemon. It's not something you can do just to try but good eye noticing how good vileplume is in the tier.

Now, in some days, it's expected we get a big wave of pokemon from UU, changing the tier completely from what we've seen in the last shifts. Honestly quite excited about it cause I've been dreading team diversity since the very beginning of SS RU.

These are some of my predictions regarding mons I think are gonna shift the meta in a new way:

This is obviously excluding mons we recently lost like Steelix and Snorlax. If everything goes our way we'll have so many more options for rock setters and general glues for teams which is just amazing cause our defensive options are lacking. There are way more mons that will drop but I didnt wanna list too much.

 

[HailFall]

If Tsareena drops, I expect it to be a top tier threat. High BP moves like power whip, triple axel, and high jump kick. A good attack stat, knock off, u turn, and rapid spin solidify this into an extremely powerful pkmn for RU.

RU water immunity #5? 6? Something like that

I doubt toise will have much viablity as an offensive mon given mons like jellicent and vaporeon being so common, but it might still have a small niche as a defensive spinner.

I'm hoping to see Dragalge drop. It can flex its typing and special bulk to check threats like zard and force the enemy to switch into an adaptability-boosted draco or sludge wave. Sounds really fun and I'm looking forward to fooling around with it. So long as enough steels drop with it, it might be balanced enough to remain in the tier? Deffo a strong mon regardless. Has an interesting coverage movepool w/ draco, sludge, tbolt, focus blast, and hydro pump.

Exploud could be cool for sure. It might be a tad stronger than eggy-a given it has a much more diverse movepool to go along with its spammable STAB.

Also seems worth mentioning that Lix, Copper, and Snorlax are very likely candidates for a drop from UU.

 

[Monky25]

Hello RU players, I've come today to give some life to the current NP thread.

Yes, vileplume right now is one of the best defensive glues in the tier, it's able to easily handle the majority of the physical attackers and bulky waters in the tier, and thanks to the new move, Corrosive Gas, it's able to remove items from mons like Porygon2, making it easier for other teammates to break through teams.

However, as mentioned above, Vileplume has quite a good number of checks in the tier, Charizard, Centiskorch, Duraludon, Braviary, Drapion, Frosmoth, etc. It's not hard to use a pokemon that's able to get past Vileplume as it's usually forced to wall a lot of mons.



Usually, in order to get a pokemon banned, there must be an objective consensus regarding the mon. If it's too good for the metagame, you'll see some discussion in this thread, the RU room, or the RU Discord server. Then, with the community input, the council takes action regarding the pokemon. It's not something you can do just to try but good eye noticing how good vileplume is in the tier.

Now, in some days, it's expected we get a big wave of pokemon from UU, changing the tier completely from what we've seen in the last shifts. Honestly quite excited about it cause I've been dreading team diversity since the very beginning of SS RU.

These are some of my predictions regarding mons I think are gonna shift the meta in a new way:

This is obviously excluding mons we recently lost like Steelix and Snorlax. If everything goes our way we'll have so many more options for rock setters and general glues for teams which is just amazing cause our defensive options are lacking. There are way more mons that will drop but I didnt wanna list too much.

Tbh i think RU will get even more pokemon than what you've mentioned. As someone who plays UU as well, here are some more drops we'll likely get, they may not be as impactful as stuff like gigalith or druddigon but might as well mention them.
These pokemon are

(insert snorlax sprite here) with maybe even stuff like

and

. I do feel the majority of these will be great additiions to the metagame. However, I do think stuff like Bronzong, Dragalge, and Starmie all have a good chance of staying UU these shifts. These are all still solid pokemon and Im more inclined to believe we don't get them these shifts. Also, I think that most if not all the RUBL pokemon should be retested due to these new drops. the metagame is going to shift so much that the power level is simply going to go up, which means like UU we should reintroduce some pokemon who may not be as threatening. I think ninetales would definitely be one, we get more waters in blastoise, poliwrath, milotic, and seismitoad, specially defensive mons like umbreon and the return of snorlax, and our good old friend gigalith has finally come back. Do you all think any more RUBLs have a shot of returning to the tier?

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Tbh i think RU will get even more pokemon than what you've mentioned. As someone who plays UU as well, here are some more drops we'll likely get, they may not be as impactful as stuff like gigalith or druddigon but might as well mention them.
These pokemon are View attachment 264821 View attachment 264823View attachment 264824View attachment 264825View attachment 264826View attachment 264827View attachment 264828View attachment 264831View attachment 264832 (insert snorlax sprite here) with maybe even stuff like View attachment 264829 and View attachment 264830. I do feel the majority of these will be great additiions to the metagame. However, I do think stuff like Bronzong, Dragalge, and Starmie all have a good chance of staying UU these shifts. These are all still solid pokemon and Im more inclined to believe we don't get them these shifts. Also, I think that most if not all the RUBL pokemon should be retested due to these new drops. the metagame is going to shift so much that the power level is simply going to go up, which means like UU we should reintroduce some pokemon who may not be as threatening. I think ninetales would definitely be one, we get more waters in blastoise, poliwrath, milotic, and seismitoad, specially defensive mons like umbreon and the return of snorlax, and our good old friend gigalith has finally come back. Do you all think any more RUBLs have a shot of returning to the tier?

Honestly the ones I think should be retested come the shifts include:

Drampa (unless the special walls we expect to drop don't end up dropping)

Pangoro (was RUBL before it moved to UU; that being said I feel it'll just be Machamp all over again, and this is also why I think Sirfetch'd will join RUBL if it ends up dropping here)

Linoone (a lot of people are saying that the existance of Copper and Steelix (and possibly Bronzong) alone will balance this out but we'll see)

Ninetales (Snorlax and Gigalith among some other things could be useful to tank hits from this thing)

And yes, even Virizion I feel could have a shot of being retested because of the Grass- and Fighting-type resists we're likely to get.

Alolachu, Sigilyph, Shiftry, Goodra, Indeedee-F (Add M to that too but I'm not too too sure we'll get that back), and Inteleon should not be retested at all I feel. Barbaracle and Slurpuff I'm iffy on but leaning towards don't even bother retesting them.

Of course, we should hold off on retests before the shifts actually come out but still.

 

[gglrg]

All posiible drops to ru in my opinion reply if you wanna add anything or argue against something thx

 

[Seucra Lockhart]

View attachment 264936View attachment 264937View attachment 264938View attachment 264939View attachment 264940View attachment 264941View attachment 264942View attachment 264943View attachment 264944View attachment 264945View attachment 264946View attachment 264947View attachment 264948View attachment 264949View attachment 264950View attachment 264951View attachment 264952View attachment 264953View attachment 264954View attachment 264955View attachment 264956View attachment 264957View attachment 264958View attachment 264959View attachment 264960View attachment 264961View attachment 264962View attachment 264963View attachment 264964All posiible drops to ru in my opinion reply if you wanna add anything or argue against something thx

The only one i don't agree with is cloyster.Screen hyper offense is great in UU and cloyster is one of it's main abusers.(Although with sun rising in popularity it has inderectly hurt screens hyper offense and therefore cloyster)

 

[SHROKER]

i agree on most drops here but there are some which worry me a lot:

1. tsareena
125 attack is really good, and AV sets do a lot of work in UU even. it is more of a niche pokémon but from my experience wielding it in UU it should stay there mostly because of the great coverage and sets it can run. axel can handle plume (guaranteed 2hko), hjk can handle any normal type, knock off handles CM espeon. all of that without mentioning queenly majesty which is a reasonably good ability to have against first impression and espeed setup sets (yes lucario shouldnt drop either he's a stronger linoone wtf guys)

calcs

252+ Atk Tsareena Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 332-392 (99.4 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tsareena Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Vileplume: 240-288 (67.7 - 81.3%) -- approx. 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

2. shell smash sets
toise, shellder and even polteageist see a lot of usage in UU solely because of shell smash. it's a crazy move that enables a shitton of gimmicks (yes weedletwineedle thank you) and there's not that many solutions to it besides crippling, prankster encore and solid revenge killers that are too good to drop. those guys can hit extremely hard, especially in a tier where frosmoth/espeon can win lategame with one quiver dance/cm. i vote for them not to drop.

3. doggi

overshadowed by his brother in UU, even tho it has basically no use over dusk forme, access to accelerock would make a lot of teams unviable. banded sets can ohko many of our current staples (moth, zard, salazzle, centi) with accelerock and it has access to swords dance, which makes it even scarier. basically an upgraded tauros, and while tauros has checks, lycanrock has a 100% accurate stab priority rock move, close combat, psychic fangs, swords dance, it's just too good to drop, even though it has no usage. it should stay in UU by the same reasons we had virizion banned.

4. lucario
to be fair i believe lucario can be a healthy addition to the tier, but his swords dance + priority sets are pretty reliable, and he can outprioritize prankster with bulletpunch and have a guaranteed 3hko so he's not 100% countered by encore sableye. it's a better linoone, overall, and it should stay UU.

5. druddigon
his glare + rocks set is awesome, add up to his endure+protect rocky helmet set and you have a really annoying physical tank that cripples ground types. amazing pokemon overall with multiple available sets even tho he is at his best being a utility lead that cripples everything.

Final thoughts
most pokemon dropping sound amazing - slowbro-g has great stats and a fantastic ability that often wins games with sheer rng and can definitely be a top threat in the meta. comfey has priority giga drain + draining kiss making it a great cm/sub sweeper. milotic seems okay-ish compareed to our amazing bulky water roster, poli dropping is very welcome, especially now that he has access to actual good moves, and zoroark is finally returning home where he can actually do something, it's absolutely unviable in UU. zong, talonflame and sharpedo seem good at first but they have good counters in our meta being bewear an answer for the three of them. overall VERY hyped for the drops, anxious to see what we're getting!

 

[Monky25]

i agree on most drops here but there are some which worry me a lot:

View attachment 265160
1. tsareena
125 attack is really good, and AV sets do a lot of work in UU even. it is more of a niche pokémon but from my experience wielding it in UU it should stay there mostly because of the great coverage and sets it can run. axel can handle plume (guaranteed 2hko), hjk can handle any normal type, knock off handles CM espeon. all of that without mentioning queenly majesty which is a reasonably good ability to have against first impression and espeed setup sets (yes lucario shouldnt drop either he's a stronger linoone wtf guys)

calcs

252+ Atk Tsareena Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 332-392 (99.4 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tsareena Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Vileplume: 240-288 (67.7 - 81.3%) -- approx. 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

2. shell smash sets
toise, shellder and even polteageist see a lot of usage in UU solely because of shell smash. it's a crazy move that enables a shitton of gimmicks (yes weedletwineedle thank you) and there's not that many solutions to it besides crippling, prankster encore and solid revenge killers that are too good to drop. those guys can hit extremely hard, especially in a tier where frosmoth/espeon can win lategame with one quiver dance/cm. i vote for them not to drop.

3. doggi
View attachment 265161
overshadowed by his brother in UU, even tho it has basically no use over dusk forme, access to accelerock would make a lot of teams unviable. banded sets can ohko many of our current staples (moth, zard, salazzle, centi) with accelerock and it has access to swords dance, which makes it even scarier. basically an upgraded tauros, and while tauros has checks, lycanrock has a 100% accurate stab priority rock move, close combat, psychic fangs, swords dance, it's just too good to drop, even though it has no usage. it should stay in UU by the same reasons we had virizion banned.

View attachment 265168
4. lucario
to be fair i believe lucario can be a healthy addition to the tier, but his swords dance + priority sets are pretty reliable, and he can outprioritize prankster with bulletpunch and have a guaranteed 3hko so he's not 100% countered by encore sableye. it's a better linoone, overall, and it should stay UU.
View attachment 265178
5. druddigon
his glare + rocks set is awesome, add up to his endure+protect rocky helmet set and you have a really annoying physical tank that cripples ground types. amazing pokemon overall with multiple available sets even tho he is at his best being a utility lead that cripples everything.

Final thoughts
most pokemon dropping sound amazing - slowbro-g has great stats and a fantastic ability that often wins games with sheer rng and can definitely be a top threat in the meta. comfey has priority giga drain + draining kiss making it a great cm/sub sweeper. milotic seems okay-ish compareed to our amazing bulky water roster, poli dropping is very welcome, especially now that he has access to actual good moves, and zoroark is finally returning home where he can actually do something, it's absolutely unviable in UU. zong, talonflame and sharpedo seem good at first but they have good counters in our meta being bewear an answer for the three of them. overall VERY hyped for the drops, anxious to see what we're getting!

You do realize we cant pick and choose what drops and stays right? Not to be on the attack but tiers are decided by usage. if any of the pokemon you mentioned gets below a 4.52% usage in UU, they drop to RU. You can argue why any of these pokemon could be banned from RU to RUBL once they drop, that is reasonable, but we cant decide what drops or doesnt drop. RU is getting at least 25+ drops from what I'm predicting and some may very well be unhealthy and a problem. We can ban those threats, but you cannot prevent the fact that some very strong pokemon like sharpedo, lucario, polteageist, and blastoise will end up dropping to the tier. The power creep of RU is inevitably going to be pumped up and many of the current RUBL mons are likely not problems anymore. Most of the drops seem manageable and top threats may no longer be as dominant as they once were after these shifts, it's just how the metagame will work.

 

[SHROKER]

You do realize we cant pick and choose what drops and stays right? Not to be on the attack but tiers are decided by usage. if any of the pokemon you mentioned gets below a 4.52% usage in UU, they drop to RU. You can argue why any of these pokemon could be banned from RU to RUBL once they drop, that is reasonable, but we cant decide what drops or doesnt drop. RU is getting at least 25+ drops from what I'm predicting and some may very well be unhealthy and a problem. We can ban those threats, but you cannot prevent the fact that some very strong pokemon like sharpedo, lucario, polteageist, and blastoise will end up dropping to the tier. The power creep of RU is inevitably going to be pumped up and many of the current RUBL mons are likely not problems anymore. Most of the drops seem manageable and top threats may no longer be as dominant as they once were after these shifts, it's just how the metagame will work.

yes brother i do, i'm saying they will probably be top threats and worthy of being quickbanned... isn't this the point of this thread

 

[Expulso]

yes brother i do, i'm saying they will probably be top threats and worthy of being quickbanned... isn't this the point of this thread

It is super cool to speculate about the new mons, since many of them seem poised to become top threats in the new metagame. However, we can't really say that these will necessarily be quickban-worthy until we see all the defensive mons & revenge killers that join RU. Araquanid, Arcanine, Copperajah, Escavalier, Klefki, Gigalith, Golisopod, Mantine, Milotic, Rhyperior, Snorlax, Steelix, and Umbreon all are potential drops, and these bulky Pokemon (+ Golisopod's First Impression and Klefki's Prankster TWave) might be enough to stop some of the Pokemon you mentioned in combination with RU's current defensive Pokemons. They might not, also, since the ones you mentioned are super strong. however we wont know whether the offensive threats you mentioned are quickban-worthy until we see what defensive options become available!