We had that vote. Nothing got banned.
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Metagame np: PU Stage 2 - Let's Go Crazy (Crown Tundra is out)
- Thread starter MZ
- Start date
- Status
for future votes, is it possible for whoever makes the spreadsheet to freeze the first column and row in place just for simplicity's sake? it's not a major problem, but it would make it so that you dont have to keep scrolling up and down to see the mon that's being discussed or whose words they are
mz edit: I did this! We used to do it and then Akir took over the sheet so blame him.
mz edit: I did this! We used to do it and then Akir took over the sheet so blame him.
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Council Happenings
Meta Discussion:
- On Sunday 19/07, the tier underwent a significant meta change with key pokemon in the tier; Ninjask, Exeggutor and Perrserker all receiving quickbans. As expected, a raft of new Pokemon rose to the top of the new meta, with Thievul, Drifblim and Rapidash-Galar having increasingly large ban sentiments amongst the tiers playerbase, with previous slate representative Appletun also making the cut.
Thievul rose to the top of this new meta courtesy of impressive breaking power combined with great speed tier. With Specs becoming by far and away the most popular Thievul set, players have been experimenting with previously under utilised pokemon such as Vullaby, Zweilous and Scraggy. Overall, Ban sentiments were spread amongst the council with some arguing that it was easy enough to pressure such that Stakeout boosts happen infrequently, and others arguing that the usage of these unranked dark types proves that its an overwhelming presence for teams to be preparing for.
Rapidash-Galar aka Gapidash aka Gony rose to similar prominence as Thievul. Its fantastic typing, coupled with its great speed tier, ability, and move options. Sets have been much more varied in comparison to the dark fox however; with Swords Dance, Calm Mind, Choice Band and Choice Scarf sets all recieving usage with a large array of items also being experimented with to get around its counterplay, with Kee Berry, Protective Pads and Life Orb amongst the options. That being said, Gony has struggled to make an impact in the games its featured in, despite its many attributes. This can seemingly be put down to its lacking immediate power prior to the setup of a Swords Dance or Calm Mind, allowing the opponent in any game to have an opportunity at pressuring it offensively, prior to any setup. The Council members that did indeed want to ban this regardless of practical circumstances argue that its restriction in the teambuilder, forcing the usage of cores in the tier that can deal with its many sets (which aren't many), and that given the time it won't have an issue accumulating a body count to show for it. The cursed fairy pony remains a contentious topic amongst council members with votes being split in a less convincing manner in comparison than Thievul.
Drifblim has rather flown under the radar in comparison to the above threats, and indeed the threats in the previous council test. It remains a Pokemon that can bring fantastic utility to the tier, being a Spinblocker with Recovery that can Defog, spread status and accumulate its own offensive pressure. It's for these reasons that the council has decided to test Drifblim, to gauge a general sentiment amongst the council about where we feel with Drifblim. It is argued that Calm Mind, Grassy Seed / Kee Berry and Flare Boost sets are too difficult for the meta to handle, given how much differently it functions in comparison to the rest of the ghost type and flying type Pokemon in the tier. Others have argued that we can deal with the minor annoyances of its offensive capability with the fact it provides fantastic support to the tier in Defog, and utility in reliable recovery, in a tier where recovery goes a long way. Overall, Ban sentiments were not popular amongst the Council, with again another lack of replays the main reason why many decided to vote to not ban the blimp.
Our final Pokemon for the slate, and a returnee from the previous slate, Appletun! A lot of the fears from the previous slate with Appletun becoming this unkillable breaker have failed to materialise. Appletun in most of its matchups is seemingly toxic'd either on switch-in or with a specified check and pivoted around till its forced out. Offensive Appletun sets have emerged to deal with this constant pivoting around it, with Specs and indeed Max SpA variations all becoming increasingly popular, however, these sets often detract from Appletuns draw which is its ability to be only OHKOed by a handful of glass cannons in the tiers repertoire. As a result, there were zero Ban sentiments from the council, with many believing in this new meta that Appletun can indeed be a force for good and help archetypes like Balance receive the usage they lack.- In Conclusion, the Council has decided to Not Ban any of the proposed Pokemon in the most recent slate. A lot of the Do Not Ban sentiments arose from the fact a large meta change is destined to happen with drops / rises set to happen this coming Saturday!
VR and Other Votes:
- As mentioned above, a recent council vote happened on 26/07 with Thievul, Rapidash-Galar, Drifblim and Appletun being the tested Pokemon. No Bans happened.
- Developing on the previous point, a lot of the council did not want to test at all, given that the new drops / rises are scheduled for next Saturday, and thus making any result given by this council test moot.
Forum Happenings:
- Congratulations to user: ggopw for winning the PU Kickoff Tournament! Well played, very impressive you kept up to date with a meta that changed an innumerable amount of times over a 14 (yes, 14) week stretch!
- PUPL Week 7 is now up, with the Carkoals, Claydols and Dedennes all guaranteed playoff spots. Congratulations to those teams, will be interesting to see who amongst the remaining teams can claim that final playoff spot in the last week of the main season.
- PU Open Round 4 is also up, with a bunch of interesting matchups already taking place.
- For those interested in becoming more involved in PU, Tier Leader and great guy Akir is looking for more people to host tournaments! Please feel free to PM him either on Smogon or on Discord ASAP if you are interested. mz edit: to be clear this is a specific tournament coming up after PUPL and we'd like a new person to host it
Discussion Points:
- Thievul is a huge topic amongst the council at the moment. There has been several a replay of it annihilating defensive cores courtesy of stakeout, near perfect coverage and really great speed. What have you been using as counterplay to Thievul? How have you found that counterplay working out for you and indeed Thievuls presence in the metagame? Do you think its overwhelming or a force for good in PU?
- Appletun's Ban sentiments amongst the council seem to have stalled! Why do you think Appletun has failed to take over the tier in a way many have predicted and indeed was demonstrated in previous PU metas?
- Upcoming Drops / Rises are scheduled to take place on Saturday. What impact do you think potential drops might have on PU?
- What cool mons have you been using that have been effective in your experience.
So this is a post about what Pokemon I think can drop and will have a great/small impact on the metagame. I will base what will most likely drop by the NU usage stats last month (my likely picks may not be very accurate though). Everything below 6% usage will be taken into account, as well as niche NU Pokemon like Jolteon which somehow got 8.863%, despite being trash (we may also see the drop of some potentially broken stuff like Silvally). One last note, things that will most likely be quick banned/suspect tested will not be talked about in great length (lol, stuff that wasn't broken still wasn't talked about much either)
(Lots of text below me, don't click if you don't want to read otherwise it's just going to be a huge wall of text.)
Red = Quick Banned
Blue = Suspect Tested/Very Good
Green = Stay
: Alolan Dugtrio is a very versatile Pokemon that has great coverage and offensive stats, as well as good defensive typing as well, but I don't think it will be broken. There are lots of Pokemon that can switch into Dugtrio fairy well like Appletun, Drifblim, Gourgeist, Sandslash, and Tangela to name a few. I mentioned before that Dugtrio is versatile, and can beat some of the checks listed before by running a effective SubToxic set. Sand teams may also see some more usage due to Dugtrio's power in Sand, as well as Stoutland and Sandslash dropping as effective sand abusers.
A+ Tier.
: Ferroseed is a great wall to many Pokemon in PU, and also a effective hazard setter due to it's high bulk and natural immunities. Many Pokemon in PU are outright walled by Ferroseed like (big list incoming) Appletun, Drednaw without Superpower, G-Mime and Mr Rime without Focus Blast, Gourgeist without the niche Fire Blast, Kadabra, Klingklang, SD/Choice Band Lickilicky, Musharna, Sandslash, Silvally Rock without Flamethrower, the niche Specs Stunfisk, Tangela, and Unfezant and these are only high tier Pokemon only. Ferroseeds hazard setting prowess and meddling bulk may be too much and even bee suspect tested. A+ Tier.
: Flareon would be a good addition to PU, being able to effectively run a Specially Defensive set and wall some of the tiers Special attackers. Flareon can finally fix it's crippling Stealth Rock weakness with Heavy Duty Boots. While WishPass does have it's merit, it is mostly outclassed by Lickilicky which has higher defense and can run Leftovers instead of Heavy Duty Boots. It's typing is also bad in this meta with not enough resistances to top tier Pokemon, and crippling weaknesses to Pokemon like Drednaw, Sandslash, Silvally-Rock and so on. B- Tier.
: Flapple is a amazing wallbreaker being able to severely weaken would be checks due to Grav Apple's defense drops, though the missing accuracy does hurt a lot. Having much better speed than Appletun is very good for this meta as it can outspeed offensive and defensive Pokemon
like offensive Drifblim, Gourgeist-Large, Glaceon and other Pokemon too. It's mediocre defense makes it hard to get in, so it can work well in a VoltTurn core as it gets U-Turn. Sucker Punch is a blessing for it allowing it to hit Pokemon faster than it like Gourgeist-Normal, Mr Rime and G-Mime, Unfezant, and others. A+ Tier.
:Gourgeist-Super:: Not much to say but Gourgeist-Super does basically the same thing as Gourgeist-Normal which is spamming Poltergeist and Power Whip, except it's slower and stronger than it. It can also run a Defensive set better because of it's higher HP. A+ Tier.
: Jolteon may finally be good for once in a tier. Specs is extremely threatening but it's lack of coverage does hurt. Scarf is also good as well, but Manectric is still the better scarfer in my opinion due to access to Switcheroo. Jolteon also has a hard time breaking bulky Ground types like Stunfisk, Sandslash, and Marowak. Jolteon also has a hard time breaking through bulky Grass types like Appletun, Roselia, and Lilligant. A- Tier.
: Liepard is a very good wallbreaker, but is more easy to handle due to bulky resists dropping like Hitmonchan, Sandslash, Falinks, and others. Band is still extremely hard to wall and Prankster makes it a great support Pokemon but I feel it is easier to handle now with all the shifts and new Pokemon able to threaten it. A Tier.
: Morpeko is a very good Pokemon with a great STAB combo of Electric/Dark which nothing outside of Krokorok resists. LO is very strong, and with Rapid Spin boosting speed and removing hazards, it can work as a great wallbreaker. It can even fulfill a utility role with Parting Shot and Rapid Spin. Seed Bomb can do quite good damage to Electric immunities like Sandslash and Stunfisk (35.3 - 41.8% to Sandslash and 35 - 41.9% to Stunfisk). A Tier
: Rapidash is a potentially broken SD Pokemon with a strong STAB and good coverage moves in Wild Charge and High Horsepower. Nothing except Vibrava can quite switch in and wall this Pokemon once it has a SD up. It's speed tier is also godly for this tier being able to out speed many Pokemon can that would potentially be able to kill Rapidash. Also, Heavy Duty Boots. A+ Tier
: Sawk is a amazing wallbreaker with great coverage options and a strong Attack stat. Knock Off can handle Ghost and Psychic Pokemon that would usually wall Sawk. I would like to write more for Sawk, but you know that it's broken. S+ Tier.
Silvally-Dragon / 
Silvally-Ghost: You know the drill. Ban these please. Except with Silvally-Bug, and Grass, these Pokemon have much better and spammable STAB Multi-Attack. S Tier.
I really hope this post was informative and helps a lot of people know about what's to come in the next shifts. Thanks for reading :)
(Lots of text below me, don't click if you don't want to read otherwise it's just going to be a huge wall of text.)
Marty said:
Red = Quick Banned
Blue = Suspect Tested/Very Good
Green = Stay
: Alolan Dugtrio is a very versatile Pokemon that has great coverage and offensive stats, as well as good defensive typing as well, but I don't think it will be broken. There are lots of Pokemon that can switch into Dugtrio fairy well like Appletun, Drifblim, Gourgeist, Sandslash, and Tangela to name a few. I mentioned before that Dugtrio is versatile, and can beat some of the checks listed before by running a effective SubToxic set. Sand teams may also see some more usage due to Dugtrio's power in Sand, as well as Stoutland and Sandslash dropping as effective sand abusers. A+ Tier.
: Ferroseed is a great wall to many Pokemon in PU, and also a effective hazard setter due to it's high bulk and natural immunities. Many Pokemon in PU are outright walled by Ferroseed like (big list incoming) Appletun, Drednaw without Superpower, G-Mime and Mr Rime without Focus Blast, Gourgeist without the niche Fire Blast, Kadabra, Klingklang, SD/Choice Band Lickilicky, Musharna, Sandslash, Silvally Rock without Flamethrower, the niche Specs Stunfisk, Tangela, and Unfezant and these are only high tier Pokemon only. Ferroseeds hazard setting prowess and meddling bulk may be too much and even bee suspect tested. A+ Tier. : Flareon would be a good addition to PU, being able to effectively run a Specially Defensive set and wall some of the tiers Special attackers. Flareon can finally fix it's crippling Stealth Rock weakness with Heavy Duty Boots. While WishPass does have it's merit, it is mostly outclassed by Lickilicky which has higher defense and can run Leftovers instead of Heavy Duty Boots. It's typing is also bad in this meta with not enough resistances to top tier Pokemon, and crippling weaknesses to Pokemon like Drednaw, Sandslash, Silvally-Rock and so on. B- Tier.: Flapple is a amazing wallbreaker being able to severely weaken would be checks due to Grav Apple's defense drops, though the missing accuracy does hurt a lot. Having much better speed than Appletun is very good for this meta as it can outspeed offensive and defensive Pokemon like offensive Drifblim, Gourgeist-Large, Glaceon and other Pokemon too. It's mediocre defense makes it hard to get in, so it can work well in a VoltTurn core as it gets U-Turn. Sucker Punch is a blessing for it allowing it to hit Pokemon faster than it like Gourgeist-Normal, Mr Rime and G-Mime, Unfezant, and others. A+ Tier.
:Gourgeist-Super:: Not much to say but Gourgeist-Super does basically the same thing as Gourgeist-Normal which is spamming Poltergeist and Power Whip, except it's slower and stronger than it. It can also run a Defensive set better because of it's higher HP. A+ Tier.
: Jolteon may finally be good for once in a tier. Specs is extremely threatening but it's lack of coverage does hurt. Scarf is also good as well, but Manectric is still the better scarfer in my opinion due to access to Switcheroo. Jolteon also has a hard time breaking bulky Ground types like Stunfisk, Sandslash, and Marowak. Jolteon also has a hard time breaking through bulky Grass types like Appletun, Roselia, and Lilligant. A- Tier. : Liepard is a very good wallbreaker, but is more easy to handle due to bulky resists dropping like Hitmonchan, Sandslash, Falinks, and others. Band is still extremely hard to wall and Prankster makes it a great support Pokemon but I feel it is easier to handle now with all the shifts and new Pokemon able to threaten it. A Tier. : Morpeko is a very good Pokemon with a great STAB combo of Electric/Dark which nothing outside of Krokorok resists. LO is very strong, and with Rapid Spin boosting speed and removing hazards, it can work as a great wallbreaker. It can even fulfill a utility role with Parting Shot and Rapid Spin. Seed Bomb can do quite good damage to Electric immunities like Sandslash and Stunfisk (35.3 - 41.8% to Sandslash and 35 - 41.9% to Stunfisk). A Tier: Rapidash is a potentially broken SD Pokemon with a strong STAB and good coverage moves in Wild Charge and High Horsepower. Nothing except Vibrava can quite switch in and wall this Pokemon once it has a SD up. It's speed tier is also godly for this tier being able to out speed many Pokemon can that would potentially be able to kill Rapidash. Also, Heavy Duty Boots. A+ Tier: Sawk is a amazing wallbreaker with great coverage options and a strong Attack stat. Knock Off can handle Ghost and Psychic Pokemon that would usually wall Sawk. I would like to write more for Sawk, but you know that it's broken. S+ Tier. Silvally-Dragon / Silvally-Ghost: You know the drill. Ban these please. Except with Silvally-Bug, and Grass, these Pokemon have much better and spammable STAB Multi-Attack. S Tier. I really hope this post was informative and helps a lot of people know about what's to come in the next shifts. Thanks for reading :)
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Isn’t Arctovish already banned from PU?
Pls Dont use to much color. Is hurt to watch. Also, most silvally are bannedSo this is a post about what Pokemon I think can drop and will have a great/small impact on the metagame. I will base what will most likely drop by the NU usage stats last month (my likely picks may not be very accurate though). Everything below 6% usage will be taken into account, as well as niche NU Pokemon like Jolteon which somehow got 8.863%, despite being trash (we may also see the drop of some potentially broken stuff like Silvally). One last note, things that will most likely be quick banned/suspect tested will not be talked about in great length (lol, stuff that wasn't broken still wasn't talked about much either)
(Lots of text below me, don't click if you don't want to read otherwise it's just going to be a huge wall of text.)
Red = Quick Banned
Blue = Suspect Tested/Very Good
Green = Stay
: Arctovish is a very strong breaker that I do not see staying in the tier at all. Not much can switch into a Banded Fishous Rend/Icicle Crash besides Pokemon like Golduck, Lapras, Mareanie, Seaking, and Pyukumuku which can also be killed/hurt by Freeze Dry and Stone Edge. It's bulk is good enough to be able to get in and take a hit, and Heavy Duty Boots helps its tendency of being wore down by Stealth Rock. Overall a great wallbreaker and one that I absolutely think will be quick banned or at least suspect tested. S Tier.
A+ Tier.
like offensive Drifblim, Gourgeist-Large, Glaceon and other Pokemon too. It's mediocre defense makes it hard to get in, so it can work well in a VoltTurn core as it gets U-Turn. Sucker Punch is a blessing for it allowing it to hit Pokemon faster than it like Gourgeist-Normal, Mr Rime and G-Mime, Unfezant, and others. A+ Tier.
:Gourgeist-Super:: Not much to say but Gourgeist-Super does basically the same thing as Gourgeist-Nomral which is spamming Poltergeist and Power Whip, except it's slower and stronger than it. It can also run a Defensive set better because of it's higher HP. A+ Tier.
Silvally-Fire /
I really hope this post was informative and helps a lot of people know about what's to come in the next shifts. Thanks for reading :)
To chime in on Cheezy’s post: i feel like there is close to zero chance of Sawk, Ferroseed, or Rapidash dropping; the first two are among the 10-15 best Pokemon in NU, and Rapidash, while more niche, still has an excellent speed tier and is the best fire type. Flapple is also very unlikely, it’s a staple on Grassy Terrain teams and a good (albeit not excellent) wallbreaker outside of them.
Dugtrio-A, Flareon, Morpeko, Liepard, Jolteon, and Gourg-Super all seem possible, particularly the first three. I’d also add Malamar to that list.
None of the first three would alter PU’s power level much, in my opinion. Flareon would be good for balance teams, running Boots+WishTect and using its excellent special bulk to wall breakers likeExeggutor. (im dumb LOL oops) Morpeko has a good speed tier for offense but has poor bulk and struggles to break thru general walls like Sandslash, Appletun, and Tangela; the same holds true for Dugtrio-A.
I personally do not expect anything to rise from PU, which would be nice to increase the tier’s stability.
Dugtrio-A, Flareon, Morpeko, Liepard, Jolteon, and Gourg-Super all seem possible, particularly the first three. I’d also add Malamar to that list.
None of the first three would alter PU’s power level much, in my opinion. Flareon would be good for balance teams, running Boots+WishTect and using its excellent special bulk to wall breakers like
I personally do not expect anything to rise from PU, which would be nice to increase the tier’s stability.
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wanted to touch base on these two points. the first being that we dont have eggy anymore, but i still think flareon would be a nice addition for the reason you stated (and i can see offensive sets also being toyed around with).
second, i think that despite morpeko's shortcomings, it has the potential to really be the cream of the crop in pu. with max speed and a boosting nature, it's faster than things like raboot, vally, and unfezant; access to rapid spin and aura wheel, both of which boost its speed (and the former adding utility to the team); and parting shot lets it pivot around on its checks and counters, especially when paired with the aforementioned spin + wheel. it also naturally can scare out some of the ghosts and psychics we have running around in the tier. it's got some neat coverage moves in seed bomb and stomping tantrum, which give it options to hit common would-be switch-ins like stunfisk and sandslash, and fire fang for tangela. (dont get me wrong, you'll need prior damage to deal with them, but i wanted to make note of them). this gerbil was one of my favorite mons to come out of galar, and i really hope it gets to shine in my favorite tier this gen, but given what i've laid out, im curious to see how it might fare.
Considering likely massive tier shifts are happening in two days, likely a few weeks for the meta to settle after the drops/bans. No point in making detailed VR for a meta about to change.
Dugtrio moved from NU to PU
it's time for monthly thoughts on new drops w/ Sergio
Duggy is kind of cool. Really fast, and decently strong. Even fast enough to do something like Boltund and run Adamant Scarf. Can even be on sand teams with Sand Force. However, I think it's mostly overshadowed by its Alolan counterpart on account of really terrible bulk and lack of a secondary typing. Overall, probably won't be great but Speed makes it not the worst thing as like a suicide Stealth Rock setter with Memento.
Alolan Dugtrio on the other hand, is going to be a great addition to the tier. Its extra Steel-type lets it hit Flying- and Grass-types super hard with its STAB Iron Head and the lowerSpeed isn't missed too much. It can also run Sand Force on a sand team but at least has a usable ability outside of weather with Tangling Hair that can definitely come in handy. Offensive Rocks or Choice Band are both sets I can see being good.
At first glance, this seems really broken. And I think that first glance would be right. This thing's Hustle boosted attacks can tear apart almost the whole tier, with U-turn to pivot, Sucker Punch for faster threats, and an extremely good signature move in Grav Apple that helps it further beat the things that should check it. Even Pokemon like Mawile and Shiinotic that should basically be counters by virtue of typing alone can't switch into Grav Apple twice. Even with the chance to miss its moves, I think this should be banned pretty quickly.
Flareon seems like a really cool new specially defensive Pokemon. Adding another Wish passer and Heal Bell cleric is really nice. I'm not sure it'd be too dominant of a threat with Guts or something, but as a defensive mon, I think it could add a lot to the tier.
God I love this thing so much. As unassuming as it is, 95 base Attack and a 110 base power signature move that changes type is really threatening. Switch in your Gourgeist to take my Electric-type Aura Wheel? That's okay, next turn it'll be Dark. Or I can just Parting Shot out and get some more offensive momentum. Not to mention its great coverage means that it could in theory break through pretty much anything that resists its dual STAB. Life Orb sets with Protect probably seem like the best idea in my opinion so that you can choose what type you want your Aura Wheel to be while also scouting and still having quite a bit of power. I'd love to keep it, but I think it's best if this were banned too.
Council Minutes
This time with a lot of info about what'll be going on with PU going forward
This time with a lot of info about what'll be going on with PU going forward
Meta Discussion:
- So there were tier shifts, we got some Pokemon, and then last night council quickbanned Flapple and Thievul.
- Flapple was just an immediately broken new drop, as long as it didn't miss Grav Apple would break pretty much any potential defensive counter (aside from Sap Sipper Marill). Imagine every time you switch into Flapple being a 50/50 because if you recover and it stays in you're even lower but if you try to attack/status it and it switches you're too low to switch in again. It had a few very niche stops but was deemed way too unhealthy.
- Thievul was something that survived the last vote mostly because we were looking to slow down voting, give the meta some more time, and see if the tier shifts might balance it out. They didn't, it was still a Pokemon with a very very small pool of Pokemon that could attempt to switch in. In the words of HJAD, it would either force several KOs per game or just get one extremely important KO to set up for something else. There's not much adaptation you can do for something like Thievul, and always having a chance to break any switchin with just one Dark Pulse flinch certainly didn't help its case.
- This survived the vote with only one person still wanting a quickban and will almost certainly not be leaving by a council vote any time soon. Don't forget to vote on how to abbreviate this thing.
- So Morpeko is going to be a big thing to look at going forward. I personally thought it'd be massively broken if we got it, but in the ~1.5 days or so we had to test it didn't show off anything so crazy that a majority council felt we had to immediately remove it from the metagame. It's a big thing to watch going forward with a lot of cheese and grime potential, but we're definitely willing to give it a chance.
- Oh and we also unbanned Gourgeist-XL because it's pretty much like the other ones.
VR and Other Votes:
- Ok now we can get to larger news topics. But first, really quickly, Taskr is stepping down from the council. The ex-PUTL came back to tiering at the start of SS but irl activity issues have caused him to miss the last few votes and he's just not feeling it right now. Thanks for your time.
- Speaking of council, we're going to try to really cut back on the extreme amount of voting for now. DLC gave us an entirely new tier that we wanted to get fixed up as quickly as possible to keep Open and PUPL relatively playable, and I hope we mostly succeeded there. But now that we're in a more stable place and have some time to breathe (until two months from now when the massive tier shift that RU got this month happens to us, and then Crown Tundra happens after that, and then Crown Tundra tier shifts aaaah), we're really hoping to avoid big council actions. Obviously if Morpeko ends up being massively dominant and a problem over the next week we'll be willing to step in and quickly ban it, but aside from that we're really hoping to suspect test rather than council ban anything for the next couple of months. We'll have to see what, if anything, deserves a suspect or resuspect in this time period (and would love opinions on that), but that's the plan. Minimal council action until either a massive 20+ mon tier shift or a similar influx of Pokemon with the Crown Tundra.
- Viability rankings- end of this week/early next week ideally? We'll need to see how much Flareon/Duggies/Morpeko impact overall viability but the viability list is getting a bit old and was only ever supposed to be temporary.
Forum Happenings:
- PUPL Playoffs! Lots of highlight matches here, lots of great matches the last few weeks, definitely something to watch.
- PU Open is in top 32. Replays aren't mandatory yet but there's some solid highlight matches here.
- Smogon Snake Draft is starting up! Just manager signups so far but this is PU's other official tour and last year had some pretty top notch competition for the most part.
- You may also want to keep an eye on the PUPL VI Team/ Set Dump, since that's hopefully where you'll get to see most of the fun techs and tricks people used over the course of this tournament get dropped over the next few weeks.
- Let's also talk upcoming tours- once PUPL is done we're going to start hosting more forum tours. First up will be the return of ADV PU, so you can look out for this wacky, mostly NFE and LC-comprised metagame in the next couple of weeks.
- This has been mentioned a few times on Discord but never posted anywhere officially so here goes: Since we're not doing a PU ribbon circuit this year (PU didn't exist for like a quarter of the year, lots of meta craziness and massive tier shifts, we haven't even seen what Crown Tundra is going to do yet), we've got more open spots for tournaments. Sometime after Snake Draft we're going to be hosting a PU World Cup (or World Cup of PU, something like that) tournament. It will be similar to other low tier World Cup tournaments like UU's currently ongoing variant. Also see RUWC, OMWC, etc. We haven't ironed out every last detail and please don't ask what exactly the regions will be yet, but it'll be sometime after/very late into Snake Draft and include both SS PU and old gens.
- PU Analyses are also going to start up again next week or so. It'll still be all minis (just a set with 2 basic paragraphs, not the full Overview, Moves, Set Details, Usage Tips, etc.) and we're always looking for more writers and QC members to help out.
- In general there's going to be a lot of ways to contribute going forward. Analyses, we put out a request for tour hosts recently and got a lot of responses, more resource-based projects, and of course we always want more general meta discussion in this thread or the viability rankings. We might even be expanding council sometime in the future, although that's not foreshadowing just something that'll likely happen eventually. If you want to do stuff for PU, recommend projects or resources or anything else like that, please reach out!
Discussion Points:
- Tell us what you think about Morpeko. Busted? Annoying? No fun to face when it just keeps Speed boosting and using Parting Shot to get out of every situation? Mediocre and balanced?
- What might you want to see get a suspect test? Is Galarian Rapidash still the hot button issue? Maybe Perrserker should get a retest sooner rather than later? All feedback is welcome.
- Other general thoughts on the new drops would be cool too. What kind of sets are people using on Flareon and the Dugtrios? These Pokemon in particular seem to have a lot of room for experimentation and cool niche sets compared to more straightforward things like Gourgeist-Super.
tldr: Update on yesterday's council vote, Taskr stepped down, ideally minimal council action for the next few months and hopefully suspect testing instead, viability rankings in a week or so, upcoming tours include Snake Draft starting, PU World Cup sometime after/at the tail end of that, and the return of ADV PU.
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I would like to suggest a Perrserker retest soon. When Perrserker was present i never felt it was oppressive as others make it seem. I have always seen it as a fantastic glue and wallbreaker. Assault Vest is an amazing pivot and Choice band was an amazing wallbreaker but neither screamed broken, just extremely solid and honestly an S rank. Its really really strong and can seem broken at first but in practice its slow but solid all around. I think we have the capability of bringing it back. I know the broken check broken isnt good for in a tiering perspective but Perrserker is still a solid check to Gapidash
The thing is that currently stall teams are not dominating the scene and the metagame seems really balanced at the moment (not like they ever did recently lolol). We're in a good place.
Perrserrker would bring some positives as you mentioned but I think the negatives outweigh the positives. We have a few Steel-types who are by no means unviable and Perrserrker just adds alot more strain in the teambuilding phase, especially for stall players. It hits like a nuke, has great resistances to the most anti-meta special attack type (Ice) and there is little to no defensive counterplay to the offensive sets and even if you can afford to take one hit, what's to stop them from pivoting. I think outside of it being an insanely good Pokemon to slap on any balanced team, it just makes other top tier wallbreakers that much more potent without being "dead weight" or a "mediocre pivot with no other added value"
With accelgor dropping to nu, he is probably going to be the best spikes setter there (reliable recovery, speed and priority in w shuriken). This can.cause garbodor to lose its place as a spikes setter, and this qill probably make it drop to pu. How will this tier handle garbo? it got tantrum to break past mawile and stunfisk, and 120 bp stab with no drawbacks excluding the low acc is amazing. And there are no double spikes setters in this tier
Both poison stonewall Accelgor.. also Accelgor only fit in offence when both poison still are good in balance..
Garbodor has an entirely different niche in NU as a bulky Fighting-type check, notably being one of the few reliable Toxicroak answers on balance. I doubt it will drop, and if it will, it won't be because of Accelgor, a fast "offensive" Spikes setter. Speculating about future drops here doesn't make sense, though, especially just after shifts. Noone knows what will drop.
Hello people of PU.
On this I will give my thoughts on Morpeko.
In fact, it is quite the threat, simply able to be smacked on the team because of its amazing speed tier relative to PU and its crazy 110 power stab move that changes type from electric to dark. The speed boost is amazing and offensive spin for hazard control and setup is also quite the broken mon on paper.
However, its lack of ability to set up its attack stat means that it usually uses banded or life orb if it wants that extra breaking power. Its absolutely paltry bulk means that it is easily revenge-killed (especially if it is LO because extra damage is done on 'The Pekochu') and Banded means that Parting Shot cannot be used as freely as one may wish. Additionally, some of our best defensive walls are Ground Types (Stunfisk and Sandslash). Additionally, it needs a slow voltturner/teleport to function properly.
Nonetheless, I am still split on whether it is broken or not. A few predictions paired with its decent coverage can wreck a team, and aura wheel can be extremely annoying for walls that don't resist both types (take Gourgeist for example). Its ability to come in on a free switchin and force a KO is unmatched in the tier, but yet it functions somewhat like Pikachu did a few months ago, and has its weaknesses to be counted. If I had to rank it on a VR, I would rate it A+ if not S, and I would certainly abstain from the ban decision were I the one to make a decision.
Hope you enjoyed reading! :D
Council Minutes
Meta Discussion:
- The week of 8/3 was a relatively quiet week in the council channel. We discussed Morpeko and its counterplay. tangela, stunfisk, krok and leafeon were all mentioned as defensive answers, and tlenit even offered running protect on various ground types as more niche solution. In general, it seems the council does not find Morpeko to be overwhelming.
VR and Other Votes:
- VR were updated from a High/Mid/Low format to the standard ranking system with Mr. Rime, Stunfisk, and Gorse earning their position in S Rank.
- Most of the council does not feel the immediate need to vote to ban anything.
Forum Happenings:
- PUPL: Both the Carkols and the Claydols secured a convincing victory over their opponents.
- Signups for the Smogon Snake Draft are up! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-snake-draft-iv-signups.3668544/
- PU Open r5 provided some fantastic games to spectate. 16 players remain with a handful of PU mains.
- Player of the week brought us an interview with everyone’s favorite Canadian. Go check it out!
Discussion Points:
- Although Flapple and Morpeko received most of the attention, we also gained a fantastic addition to the tier in Flareon. What sets do you think offer the most value to the current metagame and why?
- The ubiquity of stunfisk has driven innovation in teambuilding such as toxic and/or protective pads unfezant. What are some of your favorite and most effective techs to help deal with the S rank threats of PU?
Apart from Specially Defensive WishTect, I don't think Flareon can do much.
While it has WAY higher attack than Heatmor, the latter has way better coverage, so Flareon only has raw power (and special defense) as it advantage, otherwise Heatmor is better. Maybe a Guts set can work, since it really emphasizes on Flareon's advantages:
Flareon (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Overheat / Flare Blitz
- Facade
- Superpower
- Quick Attack / Flame Charge
Overheat is chosen as the main STAB since Flare Blitz's recoil + SR + Toxic would wear you down really quickly (And it also helps with physical walls like Tangela) but if you want to use Flare Blitz for its disgusting power, go for it. Facade is pretty self-explanatory for any Guts user. Superpower is coverage for Rock-types and stuff like Lapras and Type:Null. Finally, Quick Attack is for priority (hits harder than Heatmor's Sucker Punch, so there's that), while Flame Charge it's a way to boost your speed.
An alternative EVs spread is: 180 Atk / 76 SpA / 252 Spe with an Adamant Nature, -76 in SpA guarantees the OHKO on Specs Glaceon (w/o using Superpower) while 180+ on Atk OHKO offensive Rime and 2HKO Mareanie (This is to evade lowering your Defense, but I mean, it's bad anyways lol)
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i cant see the vr, only the list
Attachments
Hello, I am proposing a Lilligant ban.
Quiver Dance is arguably the most dangerous setup move in history. Recently, PU has only seen three users of this move:
ZU --------- PU ----------- PUBL
As you can see, one of these users is already in PUBL, in large part due to the potency of Quiver Dance. However, you will notice that the third, Bellossom, is in ZU, and faces little to no controversy or usage within PU. The reason for this is that Bellossom and Lilligant perform very differently in practice, despite both being Grass-type setup sweepers. The primary cause is their difference in stat distribution. While Lilligant has much higher offensive stats, Bellossom's greatest stats are its defences - for a setup sweeper, this is not ideal. Consequently after a single Quiver Dance, Lilligant's base 110 Sp. Atk and 90 Speed are amplified to a greater degree than Bellossom's 90 Sp. Atk and 50 Speed, the latter stat requiring multiple Quiver Dances before being remotely threatening.
By contrast, after a single turn of setting up, Lilligant is already a prime threat, outspeeding Boltund, the fastest Pokemon in the tier, and capable of OHKOing it with its monstrous STAB, Petal Dance (more on that later). The pressure exerted on the opponent to prevent the slightest of blunders each turn in order to avoid paving the way for a game-ending threat such as this, is immense.
Unfortunately for the opponent, however, Lilligant can run more than two moves. Substitute and Sleep Powder are common in these slots, Substitute further decreasing counterplay against Lilligant as it sets up, not only granting status immunity but preventing Defense/Sp. Def drops from attacks such as Fire Lash and Apple Acid. The second move however is arguably worse, allowing Lilligant to come on top of any potential setup wars by disabling the opponent for a few turns. The unpredictability of the number of these turns (0-3) might be considered an argument against a ban, however it must be remembered how much Lilligant can accomplish within a single turn, unlike Bellossom. Landing a Sleep Powder against potential counters like Heatmor and Unfezant is enough to break through their guard in one or two turns and sweep the opposing team. Other options include Pollen Puff, a newly granted Bug-type attack which gives it the ability to negate opposing Grass-type checks.
The big kicker, though, is its STAB, Petal Dance. This functions similarly to Outrage, granting a 120 BP attack for 2-3 turns without switching, followed by confusion. This sounds strong but reasonably balanced, until you consider its ability, Own Tempo, which prevents confusion, turning Petal Dance into a nuke with the only drawback being no switching (which you wouldn't want to do after setting up, anyway), and the lock-in (which is fine because of the damage and pressure you're applying)
What tips Petal Dance off the edge, though, is the fact it only uses 1 PP during the 2-3 turns of attack. This negates almost any attempt to stall out Lilligant with recovery, as well-timed Petal Dances will outlast the opponent's recovery.
TLDR; Lilligant is not a Grass-type, but a Harass-type, different to Bellossom in this regard, capable of capitalising from a one-turn blunder with a game-ending sweep.
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hi, since someone brought it up, i thought i'd share my two cents on lilligant. also it's 7am and i havent slept yet so sorry if this post doesn't make sense lol
lilligant isn't a pokemon i'd consider broken, and, in the current meta, probably not even unhealthy; it doesn't centralize building and not using it doesn't put you in an immediate disadvantage. however, i still think it's a very uncompetitive pokémon. obviously, quiver dance is a fantastic move but it's just so much better on a threat with 110 spa, 90 spe, and a typing providing it with a ton of setup opportunities despite its pretty mediocre bulk. lilligant can quickly get out of hand, and this is due to the aforementioned factor but also due to what, imo, makes lilligant uncompetitive: sleep powder. sleep is already a broken mechanism, but when you put it on a threat like lilligant, who basically just wins if it gets to +2, it simply becomes so much worse. it causes constant 50/50s between staying in and risking the sleep powder or going on the sleep fodder and risking the quiver dance that are usually in the lilligant user advantage, and, more often than not, the person facing the lilligant can't afford to get it wrong. sleep powder just pairs stupidly well with quiver dance and gives lilligant a lot of setup opportunities. there's another uncompetitive thing about sleep powder; it allows lilligant to beat would-be answers such as unfezant and klinklang if it gets lucky sleep roll. i feel like what a lot of people end up forgetting about is how great giga drain is on a pokemon like this. it allows it to afford losing 80% of its health to a scarf golduck's ice beam or losing 70% of its health to a rockvally's multi-attack just to get a free quiver dance and then recover the damage taken. this makes revenge killing lilligant with prio that isn't first impression a very hard task, especially since it can play around sucker punch with sleep powder, quiver dance, and even nature power. the only scarfer that can always revenge kill a healthy lilligant is unfezant, with other ones, like galarian mr. mime and manectric, needing more chip. but even then, you can pair lilligant with a stunfisk (which happens to be an amazing partner btw); this just forces the unfezant user into more 50/50s. although i think the quiver dance set is by far the most threatening one, choice specs lilligant is a formidable breaker; most grass resists either take over half from leaf storm (klink, mawile, unfez, blim), die to pollen puff (appletun, offensive rose after rocks), or are named type: null. while it does have some answers, and it can't always just win games on its own, lilligant works in an inherently uncompetitive way. also i think throh is unhealthy but i'll let someone else talk about that
tl;dr, lilli does have answers, but it can beat almost all of them with some luck or with some support
ok now replays, i thought i saved more that showcase why i think lilli is uncompetitive but looks like i didnt oops, and some ppl told me they didnt want me to share replays of them so yeah enjoy this
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1166243459-8uqtek350cv0pez9dfkmykjag2h8n4upw - lilli getting lucky sleep rolls and getting past an unfez after specs rime overwhelmed mawile
ty for reading!!
lilligant isn't a pokemon i'd consider broken, and, in the current meta, probably not even unhealthy; it doesn't centralize building and not using it doesn't put you in an immediate disadvantage. however, i still think it's a very uncompetitive pokémon. obviously, quiver dance is a fantastic move but it's just so much better on a threat with 110 spa, 90 spe, and a typing providing it with a ton of setup opportunities despite its pretty mediocre bulk. lilligant can quickly get out of hand, and this is due to the aforementioned factor but also due to what, imo, makes lilligant uncompetitive: sleep powder. sleep is already a broken mechanism, but when you put it on a threat like lilligant, who basically just wins if it gets to +2, it simply becomes so much worse. it causes constant 50/50s between staying in and risking the sleep powder or going on the sleep fodder and risking the quiver dance that are usually in the lilligant user advantage, and, more often than not, the person facing the lilligant can't afford to get it wrong. sleep powder just pairs stupidly well with quiver dance and gives lilligant a lot of setup opportunities. there's another uncompetitive thing about sleep powder; it allows lilligant to beat would-be answers such as unfezant and klinklang if it gets lucky sleep roll. i feel like what a lot of people end up forgetting about is how great giga drain is on a pokemon like this. it allows it to afford losing 80% of its health to a scarf golduck's ice beam or losing 70% of its health to a rockvally's multi-attack just to get a free quiver dance and then recover the damage taken. this makes revenge killing lilligant with prio that isn't first impression a very hard task, especially since it can play around sucker punch with sleep powder, quiver dance, and even nature power. the only scarfer that can always revenge kill a healthy lilligant is unfezant, with other ones, like galarian mr. mime and manectric, needing more chip. but even then, you can pair lilligant with a stunfisk (which happens to be an amazing partner btw); this just forces the unfezant user into more 50/50s. although i think the quiver dance set is by far the most threatening one, choice specs lilligant is a formidable breaker; most grass resists either take over half from leaf storm (klink, mawile, unfez, blim), die to pollen puff (appletun, offensive rose after rocks), or are named type: null. while it does have some answers, and it can't always just win games on its own, lilligant works in an inherently uncompetitive way. also i think throh is unhealthy but i'll let someone else talk about that
tl;dr, lilli does have answers, but it can beat almost all of them with some luck or with some support
ok now replays, i thought i saved more that showcase why i think lilli is uncompetitive but looks like i didnt oops, and some ppl told me they didnt want me to share replays of them so yeah enjoy this
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1166243459-8uqtek350cv0pez9dfkmykjag2h8n4upw - lilli getting lucky sleep rolls and getting past an unfez after specs rime overwhelmed mawile
ty for reading!!
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