np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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Some people can get close minded but Id imagine arguing with standard sets only.. but as for the metagame analysis right now, stall is just dominating even more than the last round.

It's always like that when a couple of strong things are banned. When Salamence / Latias were banned stall dominated the ladder for a while until people realized what worked and what failed in the new metagame. Give people a couple of weeks to play around and hopefully we get a metagame similar to gen 4 post sala (the best and most balanced meta imo).
 
Okay, perhaps I'm misunderstanding how we determine whether or not we vote to ban something. I was under the impression that if a pokemon had a set (no matter how common or uncommon that set is) that couldn't be countered, then it was determined to be unhealthy for the metagame and was sent to voting.
 
except when the only reason that set is uncommon is because it sucks

and your sets aren't "uncounterable"; people just switch in checks to regular deo-s first and get surprised by a gimmick. good job.

edit: ok i'll copy ningildo and say why your sets suck:

specs: lol wtf does this achieve that lo doesn't? exactly.

twave deo-s: lol. seriously? most deo-s checks don't even care about t-wave anyway -__________- i guess jirachi does but even then it's not like you actually do anything to it...

cm: yes, i'm sure using cm is effective especially since you can't run cm/ hp fire/ t-bolt / ice beam/ super power / psychic like you want to - you need hp fire for scizor, but you need focus blast for ttar but you need tbolt for jellicent and stuff, but you need ice beam for the latis; also, what exactly are you setting cm up on?
 
Okay, perhaps I'm misunderstanding how we determine whether or not we vote to ban something. I was under the impression that if a pokemon had a set (no matter how common or uncommon that set is) that couldn't be countered, then it was determined to be unhealthy for the metagame and was sent to voting.
Specs...yeah, Blissey can totally not wall that.
Twave Deoxys-S....why? Not enough speed? You can't take a hits and can't take advantage of the slowdown of foes, so it's pretty much of a waste.
And CM...yeah, total frailty go. You get phazed, you get killed by strong priority, etc.
So doesn't really look broken to me.
And btw, this round (maybe even the last one to be done) passed, so...
 
except when the only reason that set is uncommon is because it sucks

and your sets aren't "uncounterable"; people just switch in checks to regular deo-s first and get surprised by a gimmick. good job.

edit: ok i'll copy ningildo and say why your sets suck:

specs: lol wtf does this achieve that lo doesn't? exactly.

twave deo-s: lol. seriously? most deo-s checks don't even care about t-wave anyway -__________- i guess jirachi does but even then it's not like you actually do anything to it...

cm: yes, i'm sure using cm is effective especially since you can't run cm/ hp fire/ t-bolt / ice beam/ super power / psychic like you want to

Just because something is uncommon it doesn't mean it sucks. It just means it's uncommon. If someone is stupid enough to switch into my set, more power to me. We'll just have more broken pokemon in OU.
 
Just because something is uncommon it doesn't mean it sucks. It just means it's uncommon. If someone is stupid enough to switch into my set, more power to me. We'll just have more broken pokemon in OU.

i hate arguing with people who don't read -____-

your sets don't suck cause they're uncommon. they suck because
a) they don't do anything that more standard sets can't do except for *t-wave* lol
b) people aren't stupid for switching into your set: it's like switching a scizor into a ferrothorn and getting hit by a hp fire - your set is good if it can maintain viability if it becomes commonly used
c) deoxys-s *might* be broken, but if it's broken, it's certainly not because of some stupid sets that don't do anything that regular sets can't do
 
Going back to the Metagross thing, nkululeko, Metagross tanks a Gliscor EQ easily, meaning the 2HKO is not a problem. And did you honestly think I was talking about Hone Claws on the CB set? lol
You say Conk is better than Gross as a bulky attacker but zero explanation why. Wanna try again?

Better offensive typing, access to Bulk Up and Drain Punch. 'Nuff said.

Deoxys-S could be decent T-Wave support, but it doesn't need the move for it to outspeed the entire metagame.
 
Just because something is uncommon it doesn't mean it sucks. It just means it's uncommon. If someone is stupid enough to switch into my set, more power to me. We'll just have more broken pokemon in OU.
It is unpredictable argument for ban detected.
Now before you go there, never use the argument of unpredictability.
A shitload of pokemon are unpredictable:
Terakion: It can be Band, Scarf, Double Booster.
Tyranitar: DD, Special tank, Scarf, Band, Mixed.
Dnite: SubDD, SubRoost, DDlum, Mixed.
etc

And these are just a few examples. However, there is also a fine line between being unpredictable and just surprising people with gimmick sets.
But, sadly, that surprise is a one time use.
The moment they see what it is, they are going to rofl and then proceed to make mincemeat out of the pokemon.
Just saying. And this time, read what people post instead of "I'm right, you're wrong HURR DURR". Please, I hate sounding salty, I really do.
 
Guys, the Deo-S sets you mentioned don't say anything, because no one really uses them. The sheer "unpredictability" it possesses is the fact that it puts you at an early disadvantage because it can viably run both Supporting moves while it also can run attacking moves with nice coverage. So while you switch into one of your safer Deo-S switchins, they get a free layer of hazards, and with Sash and the turn before that, they'll have a good 3-4 layers of hazards up. On the other hand, you leave in your Gliscor to quickly finish it, when it pulls an Ice Beam out of nowhere to KO. While it is wise to prepare for any set on a mon, some of the stuff the Deoxys runs is so obscure, and if Deoxys can scare a mon into switching, then it only gets to set up more Spikes/Screens. So it's not really unpredictability so much as creating a huge disadvantage for the opponent to recover from.
 
yeah, i just was trying to prove that his sets suck

basically, when playing against deo-s, you need to have a spinner or you're playing with two hazards on your field guaranteed. and if they're dual screen then "lol"

on a side note, deo-s kills ho pretty well
 
It is unpredictable argument for ban detected.
Now before you go there, never use the argument of unpredictability.
A shitload of pokemon are unpredictable:
Terakion: It can be Band, Scarf, Double Booster.
Tyranitar: DD, Special tank, Scarf, Band, Mixed.
Dnite: SubDD, SubRoost, DDlum, Mixed.
etc

And these are just a few examples. However, there is also a fine line between being unpredictable and just surprising people with gimmick sets.
But, sadly, that surprise is a one time use.
The moment they see what it is, they are going to rofl and then proceed to make mincemeat out of the pokemon.
Just saying. And this time, read what people post instead of "I'm right, you're wrong HURR DURR". Please, I hate sounding salty, I really do.

I honestly wasn't saying that at all. BTW, I never said that these were good deoxys-s sets. I know they're gimmicky. I'm just saying that he has options. But, apparently the versatility argument isn't good here, so I'll stop using it.
 
Versatility isn't good if it doesn't win games.

The reason we didn't ban Mew instead of Excadrill is because even though Mew can run a thousand different sets that all work, Excadrill does one or two sets REALLY well, well enough to be considered for being banned.

Also, how is Mew still OU?
 
It is unpredictable argument for ban detected.
Now before you go there, never use the argument of unpredictability.
A shitload of pokemon are unpredictable:
Terakion: It can be Band, Scarf, Double Booster.
Tyranitar: DD, Special tank, Scarf, Band, Mixed.
Dnite: SubDD, SubRoost, DDlum, Mixed.
etc

And these are just a few examples. However, there is also a fine line between being unpredictable and just surprising people with gimmick sets.
But, sadly, that surprise is a one time use.
The moment they see what it is, they are going to rofl and then proceed to make mincemeat out of the pokemon.
Just saying. And this time, read what people post instead of "I'm right, you're wrong HURR DURR". Please, I hate sounding salty, I really do.

versatility as a whole isnt nessicarily a reason
it could certainly be for something like garchomp
and any time you mention versatility, mention lucario
 
Just posting to say that Work Up Terakion (I shit you not, 252 Att/252 Spe Naive) works as a great lure for Gliscor. +1 HP Ice OHKOs without rocks, thus making a Crunch/Bullet Punch SD Lucario sweep that much easier.
 
Better offensive typing, access to Bulk Up and Drain Punch. 'Nuff said.
Metagross is fast enough to actually out-speed those slow walls, it's bulkier than Conk, and it has more power behind its attacks. Not to mention, Metagross is way harder to wall (because he has way better coverage options- Ice Punch, ThunderPunch, etc.).

Conk's "better offensive typing" is actually questionable. While I agree that Fighting is generally a better STAB than Steel, Metagross has way better priority. For fast things, which are what you'd be using priority moves on in the first place, Fighting typing is pretty bad. Mach Punch fails against DDNite, DDMence, Lati@s, Espeon, Gengar, Toradus, Landorus, and even Mew/Celebi if you consider them "fast". While a Bullet Punch would deal hefty damage to most of these Pokemon. So yeah, Fighting > Steel, but Bullet Punch > Mach Punch.


Just posting to say that Work Up Terakion (I shit you not, 252 Att/252 Spe Naive) works as a great lure for Gliscor. +1 HP Ice OHKOs without rocks, thus making a Crunch/Bullet Punch SD Lucario sweep that much easier.
But the thing is, the second a Gliscor sees you use Work Up, it's gonna run for the hills, because an HP Ice is so obvious. Mienshao does a Gliscor lure way better IMO (it's still a little predictable, but it's not half as obvious as Work Up Terrakion).

Speaking of which, I haven't used Mienshao in a long time. Has anyone used him recently? How's he doing?
 
hmm, what can spin these days without Excadrill roaming around? Starmie seems to be a good choice, but it's not really what a water-type needs to be these days (sponging hits from the likes of Gliscor, Heatran, and MixTar). Sure it's got a ton of power, coverage, and speed, you will probably need to fit in another water-type or something to fill the role. Maybe that's not so bad but with all of the Latios, Haxorus, and other things that smash waters to high heaven it sure very good!

Even though I harp about Starmie lacking things that water-types need, it's really a fantastic Pokemon if you run a more fast paced team. I love Hydro Pump / Recover / Rapid Spin / Psyshock @ Life Orb. Psychock finally gives Starmie a way to be able to hit everything neutrally in 1 move so that it can use Recover and Rapid Spin on the same set. Hits Waters, Grasses, Blissey, pretty much everything, hard. Great revenge killer to Terrakion, Virizion, and pretty much everything below 361 speed. Recover lets it stick around against Heatran, Gliscor, etc. Just don't plan on it being as sturdy a check to those two as, say, Gyarados or Suicune.

Lastly, Choice Band Terrakion is a monster. Plain and simple. It tears the entire metagame up. Even Gliscor is felled by 2 Stone Edges with Stealth Rock and a bit of prior damage. Even so, it can't OHKO with Earthquake. Seriously, try it NOW. Pair it with Spikes as well and pretty much every time it comes in, you will get an OHKO. It does crazy stuff like OHKOing Rotom-W, doing 70%+ to Landorus and Latios and OHKOing Tornadus (and previously Thundurus) with SR support, 2HKOing Skarmory, and OHKOing many specially defensive Jirachi and all Scizor with just SR support (not needed for Scizor). Use it now.

I feel you hard on CB Terrakion. I sometimes stone edge first against Gliscors when I see them on Team Preview, as they think they can easily counter Terrakion but I watch as Stone Edge does about 60% to Gliscor. With SR, it's a solid Ohko. I'm running a team with spikes and CB Terrakion and 2hko's except ghosts(obviously), and bulky fighting resistors. He's also pretty bulky too. Easy to bring in.
 
But the thing is, the second a Gliscor sees you use Work Up, it's gonna run for the hills, because an HP Ice is so obvious. Mienshao does a Gliscor lure way better IMO (it's still a little predictable, but it's not half as obvious as Work Up Terrakion).

Speaking of which, I haven't used Mienshao in a long time. Has anyone used him recently? How's he doing?

Actually, people mostly just go LOL NOOB YOU FORGOT SWORDS DANCE when they see Work Up.

Mienshao, I believe, has joined the viable-in-OU-but-in-UU club. Whenever I use him though, he's sex; no one has prepared for the Spanish Swords Dance Mienshao Inquisition. Seriously, that HJK is 10 BP and 15 Base Attack off Jolly Lucario's Close Combat, and we veterans of Gen4 know how destructive THAT is.
 
Actually, people mostly just go LOL NOOB YOU FORGOT SWORDS DANCE when they see Work Up.
Really?
I would not suspect people to fall for it, but if they do, then more power to ya!

tomtom5858 said:
Mienshao, I believe, has joined the viable-in-OU-but-in-UU club. Whenever I use him though, he's sex; no one has prepared for the Spanish Swords Dance Mienshao Inquisition. Seriously, that HJK is 10 BP and 15 Base Attack off Jolly Lucario's Close Combat, and we veterans of Gen4 know how destructive THAT is.
Is Mienshao UU now? I didn't think it dropped...

Yeah, SD Mienshao is awesome, but he straight-up loses to almost anything faster than him. You'd think this problem would better with Excadrill and Thundurus gone, but I'd say it got worse because of the rise of Scarfers.
But if you can get rid of everything faster, a +2 STAB LO HJK will rip through soooo much.

I like mixed Mienshao best. When those Slowbro's and Jellicent's come in to wall you, you can just 2HKO them with LO Grass Knot (after Stealth Rock of course).
 
CB Terrakion is terrifying, but Scarf Terrakion is just as annoying ... well for my team at least. Checks all DDers / QDers for one. Fast mons like Latios can't check it anymore. Has just enough Speed to even outrun Chlorophyll Venusaur. It does its job.

I've been playing around with 2 Offensive Rapid Spinners on my team - Hitmonchan and Kabutops. They are both able to force out most Spikers and Spinblockers with their offensive prowess, which is what offensive Rapid Spinners should be doing.

107.png

Rocky (Hitmonchan) (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Iron Fist
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Drain Punch
- ThunderPunch
- Ice Punch
- Rapid Spin

Hitmonchan's iron fist-boosted versatile offense really lets it punch through things that it hits Super-Effective. I gave it enough Speed to outrun Modest Heatran, Dragonite, Gyarados, and Mamoswine, but going slow and Adamant is definitely an alternative, letting its ThunderPunch to dish the same amount of damage as Excadrill's EQ against Jellicent.

I went with Drain Punch to somehow improve Hitmonchan's longevity, but it's a weak move. Hi Jump Kick would have been much better in terms of damage output. With, HJK, it can OHKO Ferrothorn and 2HKO Jirachi, some Bronzongs, and Rotom-W. Since I think less people are running Protect on Ferrothorn, it's definitely an option. Still doesn't 2HKO Skarm unfortunately, which brings me to my next point.

Hitmonchan cannot force out or safely Spin on Skarmory, which was Excadrill's main selling point. Even HJK has a good chance of failing to 3HKO, whereas Skarmory's Brave Bird kills Chan with one swipe. If your team has issues with Skarmory, don't use Hitmonchan, lol.

It also couldn't take out Sableye, either, which is another Spin Blocker that I should be prepared for. I stopped using Hitmonchan, and I am currently trying out Kabutops, which resolves these 2 problems.

141.png

Reaper Crab (Kabutops) (F) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 180 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- Rapid Spin
- Swords Dance

I switched Hitmonchan to Kabutops, since I wanted a Spinner that doesn't have Skarm issues. Hitmonchan really sucked at taking hits, but Kabutops is rather decent absorbing hits from the physical side, with its 60 HP / 105 Def.

I opted for Superpower > Waterfall for overall better coverage, and to deal with Ferrothorn. I could've given it Hard Stone, which would've effectively made Kabutops' Stone Edge hit as hard as Excadrill's EQ, but Excadrill actually fails to 2HKO Jellicent (does like 86%), so I stuck with Lum Berry so Jellicent would be screwed if it stays in to burn Kabutops. Lum Berry also comes in handy against Sableye, who is promptly OHKOed by a +2 Stone Edge. It also comes in handy when facing Tentacruel, too.

Another pro is that its notably higher 115 Atk lets it go Jolly and still pack a punch with its move (although, Adamant would give it a better chance at +2 Superpower OHKO on Ferrothorn). It can't break through walls as well as Hitmonchan, though, since this crab is cock-blocked by Gliscor, but it can put the hurt on Skarm.

So yea, my impressions:

Hitmonchan is actually a surprisingly viable fighting mon in OU, but it was underwhelming at Spinning, thanks to its shit defense. It would definitely love to replace Rapid Spin for something that enhances its offense, such as Focus Punch (try Roosting on this Skarmo), Bulk Up, Mach Punch, EQ / Stone-Edge.

Kabutops met my expectations as a Rapid Spinner - GJ, homie!
 
Nice! I've tried both Kabutops and Hitmonlee on my Sun-based team as Rapid Spinners. That Kabutops set is really sexy and does something fierce when your opponent is running Toed. Kudos on the discoveries.

My Hitmonlee set looked something like this:

200px-Invicible_Pokemon_Brothers_Hitmonlee.png

Hitmonlee (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Limber
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Blaze Kick
- Close Combat
- Rapid Spin
- Sunny Day

Man, it was such a long time ago... But Hitmonlee has a lot of really unique options. It qualified as my second Sunny Day user to make sure the sunlight stayed up. Blaze Kick under the sun deals with lots of spin blockers (bar Jellicent). As an added bonus, Hitmonlee will have none of Jirachi's sass. Limber keeps it fresh and non-paralyzed while Blaze Kick threatens it out. If you're looking for something else unique, test him out. He gets some cool other options too, like Sucker Punch and HJK. And with base 120 Attack and 110 Special Defense, he's a Rapid Spinner who can hold his weight.
 
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