That is a result of the problem, not the problem itself.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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That is the only result of the problem which we could consider banworthy. The problem of Sand Veil/Snow Cloak on any other pokemon is not unhealthy for the metagame. Therefore, the problem of Sand Veil/Snow Cloak needs no action taken against it.
The problem of Garchomp is significant though, but requires more discussion.
The problem of Garchomp is significant though, but requires more discussion.
Every Pokemon in the game capable of using TMs can learn Double Team. Surely, not all of those Pokemon would be capable of using Double Team effectively enough that that individual Pokemon using Double Team would be unhealthy for the metagame. Does that mean that those Pokemon should be permitted to use Double Team? No.
Furthermore, while Garchomp is the only Pokemon capable of utilizing Sand Veil effectively in OU, OU is not the only metagame. Soon, we will have a UU tier, then eventually an NU tier, and possible more tiers than that. Permanent snow and hail might find themselves in any of those tiers. Last generation, Froslass was so powerful in UU that she was banned. It's very plausible that Froslass may turn out to be a significant but not broken threat in UU this gen, and if so, Froslass' ability to abuse Snow Cloak may very well be significant enough to justify addressing the matter. As for Cacturne, I recall it was similarly at one time considered a suspect for being banned from NU - for its ability to abuse Sandstorm, in fact. It's certainly plausible that it may turn out to be a significant threat in some tier, and if Hippopotas is permitted in that same tier, then it too will need to be addressed.
That's at least three Pokemon that will likely be capable of abusing the inherent uncompetitiveness of Evasion abilities in some metagame or other, and there may well be more. As the problem is clearly rooted in the uncompetitive Evasion-boosting effect these Pokemon share, there is no good reason not to address the abilities as a whole.
Then that'd just mean that they'd be booted to BL/UU, respectively, then.
At the end of the day it all runs into the evasion clause. The game gives you multiple ways to naturally boost your evasion. We've banned them all save this one. Its unanimously agreed that any evasion boosting is bad for the metagame as a whole, whether it be items or actual moves.
the problem with sandveil is its one of the most popular pokemon in ou who is being affected the most. Obviously Garchomp. As Thorhammer said earlier it does also pose a problem in UU and NU. Given that, plus the fact we have banned other evasion based aspects of the game. (We obviously have control, as we ban evasion boosting items, but not power boosting. We ban double team but not swords dance. Etc). It needs to be addressed. We are here to provide a balanced metagame. Which its been decided evasion is to luck based to provide.
I personally think the complex ban covers it well enough for now. Not letting it get out of hand, but leaving pokemon for use in the metagame.
the problem with sandveil is its one of the most popular pokemon in ou who is being affected the most. Obviously Garchomp. As Thorhammer said earlier it does also pose a problem in UU and NU. Given that, plus the fact we have banned other evasion based aspects of the game. (We obviously have control, as we ban evasion boosting items, but not power boosting. We ban double team but not swords dance. Etc). It needs to be addressed. We are here to provide a balanced metagame. Which its been decided evasion is to luck based to provide.
I personally think the complex ban covers it well enough for now. Not letting it get out of hand, but leaving pokemon for use in the metagame.
I didn't say it would make them broken. It might, but it also might not.
What it will do is make them an uncompetitive presence in that particular metagame, and therefore something that must be dealt with by removing the uncompetitive element rather than the Pokemon.
If we ban snow cloak, will that make Beartic an uber?
If we were to ban Sand Veil and Snow Cloak entirely right now, it would result in temporary or permanent soft-bans of several Pokemon, including Beartic. For this reason, I think most of us involved want another solution.
I thought of this in the two hours I spent reading the arse end of this thread instead of sleeping.
Why not, a simple ban on all the auto-weathers, BUT- instead of essentially dumping them into the Uber tier, make a "sidegrade" Weather tier instead. It would be whatever is in Standard, plus the auto-weathers, leaving Standard to the likes of Sunny Day and Rain Dance as it's been since 2nd gen.
This way, there would be two environments providing results on suspect testing. Not only could you skip this Sand Veil/Sand Stream nonsense, but you could get rid of Drizzle+Swift Swim too. (Having no complex bans is better than having complex bans, I'm assuming.) Let the full force of auto-weather slog it out for a couple of months, and if it collapses in on itself, so what? Standard is still healthy. (A proper test for Manaphy without Drizzle could finally be done, for instance, and if it passes, simply let it into Weather Tier too.)
Ubers started as the Standard banlist, and that turned into something legitimate, despite being a dumping ground for things that made the competitive scene less interesting. Rather than calling foul at every single weather abuser in the game (because if Snow Cloak is getting brought up already, it's only a matter of time before Solar Power and Ice Body are all that's left and then they'll be up for bans) I think it might be quicker and more constructive to simply make another tier, even temporarily. Let the Weather tier develop on its own and you might shake out some surprises that you simply won't discover if you just ban everything, and meanwhile, the Standard tier will still exist.
Pros:
-People who want auto-weather are happy, people who don't want auto-weather are happy
-One simple clause replaces a (potential) number of complex bans, or bans that are designed to be "simple" but take out "bystander" Pokémon needlessly (Glaceon, Sandslash, etc)
-Two environments means twice the results automatically with each test
Cons:
-If there's a Standard +Weather, it follows that there could be a UU +Weather develop separately from regular UU (I don't think it's too likely, but it could happen- will probably just be UU + Drought Vulpix/etc, though)
-The idea of making a whole new tier to examine and solve a problem is not something that should happen often, but then, this will be the second time, so there is some precedent.
-We'll be right back to square one if the Weather tier crashes and burns right away. However, if it does stabilize into something, it will be useful because it can be directly compared to a metagame without auto-weather.
Summary:
-Auto-weather abilities are banned from Standard. Weather tier is Standard tier with all auto-weather abilities permitted.
-Changes to Standard tier not related to auto-weather abilities affect Weather tier automatically. (ie. if Manaphy is allowed into Standard tier, it is automatically allowed into Weather tier, with no consideration given to its effect on that metagame.)
-After several months of "deal with it", the Weather tier should provide data and results regarding the auto-weathers in an environment where "just ban it" isn't an option, while keeping the metagame developing in the Standard tier without all this futzing about with clauses and bans and dismantling Pokémon. The important issues can resume being discussed (ie. why the hell is Stealth Rock not banned yet, overcentralization this, no counters that, etc).
Thoughts?
~Uiru
Why not, a simple ban on all the auto-weathers, BUT- instead of essentially dumping them into the Uber tier, make a "sidegrade" Weather tier instead. It would be whatever is in Standard, plus the auto-weathers, leaving Standard to the likes of Sunny Day and Rain Dance as it's been since 2nd gen.
This way, there would be two environments providing results on suspect testing. Not only could you skip this Sand Veil/Sand Stream nonsense, but you could get rid of Drizzle+Swift Swim too. (Having no complex bans is better than having complex bans, I'm assuming.) Let the full force of auto-weather slog it out for a couple of months, and if it collapses in on itself, so what? Standard is still healthy. (A proper test for Manaphy without Drizzle could finally be done, for instance, and if it passes, simply let it into Weather Tier too.)
Ubers started as the Standard banlist, and that turned into something legitimate, despite being a dumping ground for things that made the competitive scene less interesting. Rather than calling foul at every single weather abuser in the game (because if Snow Cloak is getting brought up already, it's only a matter of time before Solar Power and Ice Body are all that's left and then they'll be up for bans) I think it might be quicker and more constructive to simply make another tier, even temporarily. Let the Weather tier develop on its own and you might shake out some surprises that you simply won't discover if you just ban everything, and meanwhile, the Standard tier will still exist.
Pros:
-People who want auto-weather are happy, people who don't want auto-weather are happy
-One simple clause replaces a (potential) number of complex bans, or bans that are designed to be "simple" but take out "bystander" Pokémon needlessly (Glaceon, Sandslash, etc)
-Two environments means twice the results automatically with each test
Cons:
-If there's a Standard +Weather, it follows that there could be a UU +Weather develop separately from regular UU (I don't think it's too likely, but it could happen- will probably just be UU + Drought Vulpix/etc, though)
-The idea of making a whole new tier to examine and solve a problem is not something that should happen often, but then, this will be the second time, so there is some precedent.
-We'll be right back to square one if the Weather tier crashes and burns right away. However, if it does stabilize into something, it will be useful because it can be directly compared to a metagame without auto-weather.
Summary:
-Auto-weather abilities are banned from Standard. Weather tier is Standard tier with all auto-weather abilities permitted.
-Changes to Standard tier not related to auto-weather abilities affect Weather tier automatically. (ie. if Manaphy is allowed into Standard tier, it is automatically allowed into Weather tier, with no consideration given to its effect on that metagame.)
-After several months of "deal with it", the Weather tier should provide data and results regarding the auto-weathers in an environment where "just ban it" isn't an option, while keeping the metagame developing in the Standard tier without all this futzing about with clauses and bans and dismantling Pokémon. The important issues can resume being discussed (ie. why the hell is Stealth Rock not banned yet, overcentralization this, no counters that, etc).
Thoughts?
~Uiru
This is not a good idea. For one, certain pokemon like Tyranitar and Abomasnow are good in their own right, and get significantly nerfed without weather. In fact, usage of Tyranitar would severely drop without Sand Stream. Some pokemon who depend on SS altogether, like Curse Regirock, will become auto-NU. What this means is that you are essentially discriminating against certain pokemon, similar to banning Chomp because he gives you trouble.
And also, the problem is NOT the weathers themselves; rather, the problem is weather + evasion ability. Its like you are proposing a ban on knives because people use them as weapons. In addition, this "weather tier" would just become a sandstorm tier, which means that all teams will have Tar, Gliscor, etc. Do you WANT a tier with Tyranitar having a 70% usage?
This means the easiest thing to do is simply ban these abilities, but then you run into problems, such as Beartic being a pseudo-uber.
New thread, new discussion. let this thread die.
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