I like how you ignored the fact that I'm just saying that the Bulk Up set is more common.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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I like how you ignored the fact that I'm just saying that the Bulk Up set is more common.
How is it a double standard? Sand is broken by literally 2 Pokemon, whilst Rain is broken by probably over 10. If it was 'just Kingdra and Kabutops' then maybe you would have a point.
The point being what? Raikaria stated two sets that can deal with Doryuuzu and a way to beat it with the most popular set, while you simply said that the latter is more popular which either implies that something is wrong with using the others (why?) or is completely useless and not productive in any way. The point remains that Roobushin can usually deal with Doryuuzu and your post adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
I doubt that dory would stay in though...
How would a defensive lickilicky do to help sponge up weather? Nothing commonly carries fighting in the way of speed abusers, and he could body slam for paralisis support.
Maybe something like:
Lickilicky@leftovers
Relaxed/sassy
Cloud nine
4 hp/252 def/252 sp. Def
Body Slam
Focus Blast/Fire Blast
Ice Beam
Power whip/Toxic
I need to do some calcs, but focus blast hits dory and t-tar hard, ice beam for landlos, while sun wise, ice beam hits a lot of the grass chlorophyl users. Body slam's 30% paralisis can wreck a manaphy because of rain being nulled out. Power whip can do reasonable damage to waters, while toxic can cripple abusers.
I'll test this, but it seems like it would work, assuming that it's been released.
How would a defensive lickilicky do to help sponge up weather? Nothing commonly carries fighting in the way of speed abusers, and he could body slam for paralisis support.
Maybe something like:
Lickilicky@leftovers
Relaxed/sassy
Cloud nine
4 hp/252 def/252 sp. Def
Body Slam
Focus Blast/Fire Blast
Ice Beam
Power whip/Toxic
I need to do some calcs, but focus blast hits dory and t-tar hard, ice beam for landlos, while sun wise, ice beam hits a lot of the grass chlorophyl users. Body slam's 30% paralisis can wreck a manaphy because of rain being nulled out. Power whip can do reasonable damage to waters, while toxic can cripple abusers.
I'll test this, but it seems like it would work, assuming that it's been released.
exactly
and banning swift swim makes rain dance teams useless
its a pick between ruining
rain stall or swift swim entirely
I think it's ridiculous to ban so many (or any) swift swim pokes. Though I don't want to it seems obvious to ban drizzle. We don't really lose anything... Rain can still exist in the form of raindance and we still keep all of our swift swim pokes. You don't have the luxury of drizzle but I find it has just spoiled everyone one anyway.
I don't think anyone has said that 10 rain abusers could ever be banned. Mostly people either said ban Swift Swim, or up to or less than 4 of the prime rain abusers. In any case, his point was that in the case of Rain, you are for banning the whole permaweather, whereas sand people wish to only ban the abusers. Admittedly Rain has many more overpowering aspects to it than SS (read reachzero's post) but I believe the point he was trying to make was that banning the abusers isn't such an outlandish idea.
Again, if you read Reachzero's post you will see that banning Swift Swim does not necessarily render Rain Offense useless at all - it would merely alter it somewhat, given its huge variety of other offensive options.
I question the relevance of Drizzle's uncounterable activation. Surely it is the benefits it provides and its length of duration have more bearing on its brokenness? In any case a MH Rain Dance is very difficult to counter as well.
By your logic though, aside from Taunters and the like trying to stop RD from being set up, surely Drizzle teams would have very similar counters? The only different aspect excluding the activation is the duration, which can be dealt with by other weathers. Both can clearly be countered, it is simply that permanent Rain has a greater centralising effect due to its most effective counter (other weather moves) being rarely used by most teams.
@Redjar, it may not be immediately obvious, but when Rain is reduced to relying on Damp Rock and use of a move and valuable turn to set it up, do you really think it will still be on the same level as the much improved SS and Sun this Gen? In my opinion it seems that it would fall out of use due to having no permanent inducer, which would have the effect of making almost every current abuser of it non-viable along with the playstyle. Surely losing one or two Swift Swimmers or even the ability Swift Swim is a better alternative?
I'd like to add both Rain Dance Voltolos and Sunny Day Venusaur are whores. Of course, any pokémon with an asspulled weather move is, but specially those two.
Wow,all I was saying is that the Bulk Up set is more popular than the Guts + Status Orb set and therefore most Roobs would be unable to just switch in and initially OHKO Dory.
I honestly don't think perma-rain is broken without swift swim. The pokemon can still hit kinda hard with water attacks but they really don't hit that much harder than a lot of what's in OU already. These pokemon are also pretty slow in today's metagame so it isn't difficult to bring in something faster on a resisted attack and take them out.
Do you honestly think that floatzel and poliwrath are broken with swift swim?
In all honesty, the only swift swimmers that are absolutely broken are Kingdra and Ludicolo, with Kabutops being a maybe. Omastar and gorebyss are good, but not broken. The rest of the swift swimmers, even in drizzle, range from ok to horrible.
To look at sand...
Doryuuzu, Sandslash (together they get the same super-hyper offense rain gets), maybe Landlos. Other sand pokes, such as ttar and terakion, are good but not broken. And there others, such as the dog, who are meh.
And before you say Sandslash isn't good... I've actually used him. He's better than jolly balloon dory imo. However I haven't used LO dory, so I can't say he's better than dory as a whole.
I still don't see what the problem about banning Drizzle would be. You can ban 5 otherwise reasonable Pokémon to Ubers because of Swift Swim, but without Drizzle, Rain Dance can still exist. Rain is the best weather, I think most people agree on that by now. So why not give it some restrictions in using it?
I said this a while back on another thread, but I'm going to side with those saying "ban the weather, not the Pokemon". Using rain as an example: It seems stupid to ban Swift Swim when it's only "broken" in perma-rain. Without Drizzle it would be similar to Gen4 where people had to use the move Rain Dance. Kingdra was OU last Gen and the Rain Dance set (RD, DD, Outrage, Waterfall) with Swift Swim was my favorite, it was hardly broken. I think Drizzle has spoiled people and they're just trying to find a way to keep it around, even if that means banning Pokemon that really don't deserve to be Uber.
I don't either, but its interesting to consider that the other benefits Rain provides may mean rain is still viable. There are fast water types of course - Starmie, Kerudio when released etc would probably replace Swift Swimmers and may end up scarfed. AgilPoleon and Shell Smash Omastar may serve a similar fast poke niche. In any case I don't think Sift Swim should totally be removed if possible.
On the other hand, rain is likely going to be next to impossible to justify running (as opposed to no weather or a different weather) when there's one extra turn you have to blow before it goes up. So if we use this to justify ignoring the existence of Rain Dance, then you have to conclude that, while Swift Swim is only broken in the rain, it's also only relevant in the rain. Unfortunately, testing a rain team without Swift Swim Pokémon (or even have them but with their alternate abilities) seems impossible to test all that well without actually banning Swift Swim. So we have to go by reasonable theorymon like what reachzero posted.
As Capefeather says, when forced to use item slots for Damp Rock, moveslots for RD, to avoid being taunted, and to deal with the 8 turn duration, Rain Dance will most probably no longer be viable, so any abilities abusing it will simply not be in common use whatsoever. Spoiling people with Drizzle is not a reason to go back to how Gen 4's Rain was, nor is that it would be preferable - only the current meta is relevant.
Restricting Rain however does seem the way to go, but banning Drizzle will not do this, it will likely eradicate it from competitive play.
Indeed theorymon is all we can go by at present. There is one more suggestion which I have overlooked until now, however. In the 1v1 thread there was a criteria for suspect status which was: a pokemon and ability combination. I could not find the criteria for nominations in the previous suspect thread, but if this is the case in Round 2, I would most definitely put forward Kingdra with Swift Swim and Ludicolo with Swift Swim as suspects in place of Drizzle. This would it seems to me to be the best possible way of reducing Rain's power whilst not completely eliminating it. It doesn't blanket ban an ability, it doesn't remove an otherwise useful poke from play, and it isn't too incredibly specific either. If this were possible of course, I would like to see it tried out in place of Drizzle being removed entirely.
No nonsimple bans, i.e. a pokemon and an ability. only a blanket ban of a pokemon or ability.
The possible exception may be drizzle + swift swim. Since they are both factors of a broken teamstyle, much like moves and abilities are factors of a broken pokemon, and teams don't exactly have species that we can just ban in one clause. I think banning either drizzle, or preferably, kingdra and ludicolo, is a better idea though.
Maybe instead of Banning Drizzle or swift swimmers we could have a clause of some sort. Maybe we could have a clause that prohibits having Drizzle politoed and swift swimmers on the same team. This way swift swimmers could still be used with rain dance and we wouldn't have to ban perma rain.
Theres no reason to go that route if the above mentioned clause works.
I think the best way to sort this out is just wait until the next voting round, then see if the voters think Drizzle is broken.
Well this gen we've already struck entirely new ground by banning abilities. We already have done item bans - Soul Dew, and created clauses preventing Sleep and Freeze being inflicted upon more than one pokemon, which are so complex that it required coding into simulators as it did not exist in the past games. Besides, the only reason against it is that it is overtly complicated, but is remembering that Kingdra cannot be used with Swift Swim really too hard? Abilities have been restricted by DW release already, so it has been done before. The issue may be that in future similar bans would be logical, and then everything would get too complex.
In terms of the logic of banning a pokemon with ability rather than anything else, I suppose the problem is that we have never banned a move on a pokemon that proved broken. However an ability is a very defining aspect of a pokemon. Often it is the ability that gives a mon its role, and hence perhaps it's broken aspects, and since a different ability (now possible for almost every mon due to DW) can remove that broken aspect easily and be tested - without having to debate if it is broken when not being able to use its best move for example. I think that since abilities are clearly defined and have such an impact on the role of many pokemon, I think this could at least be tested.
Edit: @ Berserker Lord: The point of these suggestions is not to make an easier solution, but one making for a better more diverse metagame, where Rain is not eliminated as a playstyle. See Capefeather's post for why it would nto be very viable without Drizzle.
@More Cowbell, I agree. Waiting until the results of the Manaphy test is the best option in my opinion, then Drizzle can be considered without one of its prime abusers and we can better see what should be done.
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