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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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I just don't get it, Deoxys-A was banned in Gen 4 due to it was too powerful. What is the different in this gen
78.gif
? There are even more Fighting type in this gen, which make Deoxys-A even stronger
77.gif
.

Shandera, Doryuuzu are broken, too. Most of the time they take at least one pokemon down.

I'm pretty bored with the metagame right now, it's all about the weather, if your team isn't a weather team, you will likely lose
17.gif
. Tyra + Shan + Dory + Bre, yep, it's all about them
h.gif
. Let's ban weather abusers or weather makers so that we can have a much more interesting metagame. I rather play Ubers which much more better than this Dream World Weather tier
29.gif


Btw, there are even someone said that Rayquaza should be in OU
24.gif
 
Gear2 said:
1. I just don't get it, Deoxys-A was banned in Gen 4 due to it was too powerful. What is the different in this gen
78.gif
? There are even more Fighting type in this gen, which make Deoxys-A even stronger
77.gif
.

2. Shandera, Doryuuzu are broken, too. Most of the time they take at least one pokemon down.

3. I'm pretty bored with the metagame right now, it's all about the weather, if your team isn't a weather team, you will likely lose
17.gif
.

4. Tyra + Shan + Dory + Bre, yep, it's all about them
h.gif
.

5. Let's ban weather abusers or weather makers so that we can have a much more interesting metagame.

6. I rather play Ubers which much more better than this Dream World Weather tier
29.gif


7. Btw, there are even someone said that Rayquaza should be in OU
24.gif
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1. Because Deoxys-A is more easily killed due to more things that can take a hit.

2. Killing a pokemon doesn't automatically make something broken.

3. The weather is rough but that's because people are in love with the fact that they can make infinite rain. Once we get through the initial rounds of banning, things will smooth out.

4. Breloom isn't very common right now.

5. It's not about how interesting the metagame is, it's about what's broken. It will become interesting once it becomes stable. If not, we'll have an easier time making it more fun by working with a balanced metagame.

6. This isn't about Dream World tier. It's abut Standard.

7. And yes, the Rayquaza thing was lol.

edit: Were you sarcastic? I don't want to end up like Acritter and not recognize it...
 
1. Because Deoxys-A is more easily killed due to more things that can take a hit.
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Last gen it was like this, too. Scizor Pursuit to death.

2. Killing a pokemon doesn't automatically make something broken.
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But they kill pokemons so easily. Last gen, Lucario needs Spikes for some important KO, 1 DD Gya can be revenged easily by Flygon, Rotom and walled by Skarm,... Sweepers in Gen 4 need a lot of support to sweep, look at Shan and Dory, they don't need anything.

3. The weather is rough but that's because people are in love with the fact that they can make infinite rain. Once we get through the initial rounds of banning, things will smooth out.
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We have to wait....

4. Breloom isn't very common right now.
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Well, he is.
# 4 - Breloom (14.09 %)
# 5 - Tyranitar (13.93 %)
# 6 - Doryuuzu (12.79 %)
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6. This isn't about Dream World tier. It's abut Standard.
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Well, most of weather makers and abusers are in Standard right now.
 
A Gutsy Deoxys-A could destroy Scizor since Life Orb Psycho Boost 2 hit koes Scizor, same for Nattorei with Super Power. That says something right there. If say a Scizor switched in, I'd just attack because if it Bullet Punches you die, but it is more likely to Pursuit you (because they know if they Bullet Punch you die so you'd switch) in which case you outrun and kill their Scizor/Nattorei. Plus, Deoxys A can survive all sorts of Mach Punches and even Life Orb Technician Breloom only has a 33.33% of OHko with Mach Punch.
 
I see people talking about Manaphy getting OHKOed by faster things, but you can only do this with a) Skymin, who might be banned too, or b) Thunder users, which, in my opinion, are a sign of centralization towards rain, which, in my experience, is caused by Manaphy, because rain teams without Manaphy are pretty manageable and fun to battle against.
 
Gear2 said:
I just don't get it, Deoxys-A was banned in Gen 4 due to it was too powerful. What is the different in this gen
78.gif
? There are even more Fighting type in this gen, which make Deoxys-A even stronger
77.gif
.
Click to expand...

The emphasis on priority and improved walls make Deoxys-A much less threatening. It is killed by almost any priority and can actually be walled to a certain extent. MH abusers can stop it as well. The point is, it's manageable at the current moment.

Shandera, Doryuuzu are broken, too. Most of the time they take at least one pokemon down.
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Shandera is not guaranteed one kill per match. Maybe when Shadow Tag Shandera is released, it will be a different story, but until then, it isn't too overpowered.

Doryuuzu shouldn't always take out one pokemon. If your team is truly Doryuuzu proof, you should be able to take it out with no trouble at all. Doryuuzu has its checks and counters and is in no way overpowered or guaranteed one kill.

Also, just because they can take one pokemon down doesn't mean that they're broken.

I'm pretty bored with the metagame right now, it's all about the weather, if your team isn't a weather team, you will likely lose
17.gif
. Tyra + Shan + Dory + Bre, yep, it's all about them
h.gif
. Let's ban weather abusers or weather makers so that we can have a much more interesting metagame. I rather play Ubers which much more better than this Dream World Weather tier
29.gif
Click to expand...

I'm bored with the metagame too, but the thing about the weather isn't true at all. Perhaps your teams lose against weather, but there are such things as weather-proof teams. I really don't see too many Shanderas or Brelooms. This is standard, not DW. Furthermore, Hippowdon and TTar aren't broken, you just claim that Dory is broken (which I disagree with, but that's besides the point) which means that the inducers shouldn't be banned, it should be the abusers.

Btw, there are even someone said that Rayquaza should be in OU
24.gif
Click to expand...
Just because someone suggests it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I know these quotes usually make people look like assholes, and this isn't a personal attack, I just disagree with a lot of your points. I have nothing against you personally.
 
Fluffy Otters said:
A Gutsy Deoxys-A could destroy Scizor since Life Orb Psycho Boost 2 hit koes Scizor, same for Nattorei with Super Power. That says something right there. If say a Scizor switched in, I'd just attack because if it Bullet Punches you die, but it is more likely to Pursuit you (because they know if they Bullet Punch you die so you'd switch) in which case you outrun and kill their Scizor/Nattorei. Plus, Deoxys A can survive all sorts of Mach Punches and even Life Orb Technician Breloom only has a 33.33% of OHko with Mach Punch.
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No one's going to Pursuit something that's about to 2HKO you...
 
Sebastian said:
I see people talking about Manaphy getting OHKOed by faster things, but you can only do this with a) Skymin, who might be banned too, or b) Thunder users, which, in my opinion, are a sign of centralization towards rain, which, in my experience, is caused by Manaphy, because rain teams without Manaphy are pretty manageable and fun to battle against.
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Choice Specs TBolt from Jolteon, or Choice Specs DM from Latios. Both common sets for common Pokemon who outspeed.
 
Sebastian said:
I see people talking about Manaphy getting OHKOed by faster things, but you can only do this with a) Skymin, who might be banned too, or b) Thunder users, which, in my opinion, are a sign of centralization towards rain, which, in my experience, is caused by Manaphy, because rain teams without Manaphy are pretty manageable and fun to battle against.
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This. Everything else manaphy can survive, ko, and threaten to Rest in Rain making it like nothing. Stab Thunder/bolt, Shaymin-S, and Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor are the only ways to generally ohko and few things that are faster can do that much to Manaphy and if they do...Rest. Make sure to kill that Tyranitar when it switches in though.

Behind Screens (Reflect in particular since most teams overrely on Nattorei to counter Rain Dance, a dangerous strategy to rely on only one) Manaphy can easily get two Tail Glows and with Rain, +6 Life Orb Surf OHKOES MAX HP/MAX SDEF Nattorei and behind Reflect, Nattorei only deals 35.67-42.69%. And it can play outside of Rain, rain just makes it most effective and gives it godly recovery. And with Kingdra, Kabutops, Abagora, Gorebyss, etc Rain is really hard to stop once Nattorei is gone and that doesn't mean there isn't the traditional move Rain Dance as well just in case Politoed dies. A sandstorm team might think itself safe once Politoed dies but if Rain Dance gets used, they have another 5 turns of trouble (and they have trouble with water pokes in general because of all the ground/rock once they're bush is gone).
 
Rest isn't quite as great as people like to make it out to be, really. If you 2HKO with an attack, Manaphy is forced either to kill you and leave itself heavily damaged, or to keep Resting, in which case you just pray for a crit and it's over. It's not like Pokémon over 328 Speed are rare or anything... I'm not saying that Rest isn't awesome; I'm just putting things a bit more into perspective.
 
capefeather said:
Rest isn't quite as great as people like to make it out to be, really. If you 2HKO with an attack, Manaphy is forced either to kill you and leave itself heavily damaged, or to keep Resting, in which case you just pray for a crit and it's over. It's not like Pokémon over 328 Speed are rare or anything... I'm not saying that Rest isn't awesome; I'm just putting things a bit more into perspective.
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Whenever I've encountered this situation, I would kill the opposing Pokemon, switch Manaphy out, and wait until I can switch it back in safely against something slower, or wait until another one of my Pokemon faint and then bring it in on the slower threat. Then I just use Rest, and I have Manaphy back. I Tail Glow and start the entire mess again. Not only that, but I just took out one of my opponents main methods of dealing with Manaphy.

When you consider that the amount of Pokemon below 328 speed (what I ran) eclipses the amount of Pokemon above 328 speed, you realize this is not very difficult to do. I earnestly believe Rest is as great as people believe just from my own experiences. Although I've been off the ladder lately.
 
I don't understand all of this discussion about 252 Speed Manaphy like he's some kind of standard sweeper. He gets a free Rest and his most common enemies are faster special attackers that can KO with a Grass/Electric type moves. You have Tail Glow, an immunity to status and permanent rain. Doesn't it occur to anyone to just go with a full-on defensive spread?

This is the same problem we encountered suspect testing Manaphy last gen. Everyone wanted to do crazy shit like Sub Tail Glow and Wacan Berry rather than abuse his excellent Defenses and near-inability to be OHKOed to get a free boost and trump anything that tries to stop him.

Small tip for you guys: if you go specially defensive, most Leaf Storms and Thunderbolts will not KO, while a +3 Surf or Ice Beam in return will.
 
capefeather said:
Rest isn't quite as great as people like to make it out to be, really. If you 2HKO with an attack, Manaphy is forced either to kill you and leave itself heavily damaged, or to keep Resting, in which case you just pray for a crit and it's over. It's not like Pokémon over 328 Speed are rare or anything... I'm not saying that Rest isn't awesome; I'm just putting things a bit more into perspective.
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Rest is mainly for wrecking stall teams. One of the most common situations is Manaphy comming in on Blissey (after Blissey came to wall something like Politoed, Zapdos or Ludicolo). With Rain, Manaphy is not affraid of status, so it comes with impunity on Blissey. The most common move is switching to Nattorei, and Manaphy gets a Tail Glow on the switch. And then Manaphy gets its second Tail Glow as Nattorei Power Whips for the 60%. Seems like Manaphy is fucked, right? It's a clean 2hko. But then comes the cheap shot: Manaphy can just Rest until Power Whip misses and then proceed to 2hko Nattorei with Surf. Leech Seeding is also useless if Manaphy has Leftovers.
 
Sebastian said:
Rest is mainly for wrecking stall teams. One of the most common situations is Manaphy comming in on Blissey (after Blissey came to wall something like Politoed, Zapdos or Ludicolo). With Rain, Manaphy is not affraid of status, so it comes with impunity on Blissey. The most common move is switching to Nattorei, and Manaphy gets a Tail Glow on the switch. And then Manaphy gets its second Tail Glow as Nattorei Power Whips for the 60%. Seems like Manaphy is fucked, right? It's a clean 2hko. But then comes the cheap shot: Manaphy can just Rest until Power Whip misses and then proceed to 2hko Nattorei with Surf. Leech Seeding is also useless if Manaphy has Leftovers.
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If Manaphy got 2 Tail Glows in Rain, Life Orb Max SAtk is an OHKO on Max hp/Max SDef Nattorei.
 
SJCrew said:
I don't understand all of this discussion about 252 Speed Manaphy like he's some kind of standard sweeper. He gets a free Rest and his most common enemies are faster special attackers that can KO with a Grass/Electric type moves. You have Tail Glow, an immunity to status and permanent rain. Doesn't it occur to anyone to just go with a full-on defensive spread?

This is the same problem we encountered suspect testing Manaphy last gen. Everyone wanted to do crazy shit like Sub Tail Glow and Wacan Berry rather than abuse his excellent Defenses and near-inability to be OHKOed to get a free boost and trump anything that tries to stop him.

Small tip for you guys: if you go specially defensive, most Leaf Storms and Thunderbolts will not KO, while a +3 Surf or Ice Beam in return will.
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Manaphy isn't given 328 Speed just so it can sweep. Being able to use Rest first before its other opposing threats attack is a valuable asset to have.
 
With a max special defense and hp, I just saw Manaphy can take a Shaymin-S Life Orb Seed Flare (Timid). That's right. Shaymin-S Seed Flare. 86.14-101.49%. When Manaphy can survive that, it survives everything. If you have Screens up, Manaphy would get Two Tail Glows and proceed to beat the crap out of people, with or without rain. Hmm...I like the defensive sets now...because outside of being able to ohko Nattorei in rain with +6 Surf Life Orb, it pretty much kills people equally and you survive stupid stuff like Specs Thunders and Meteors (In Ubers it worked well to outstall Choice Scarf Kyogre). Jolteon needs Choice Specs THUNDER to ohko Manaphy then.
 
I agree that the best Manaphy spread is a very defensive one. Right now I just won a battle on PO by defeating life orb kingdra one-on-one with Manaphy, because LO Outrage couldn't 2HKO (I was using 252 HP/80 Def Bold), so I took one Outrage, Tail Glow, took another, Rest. Speed is not so necessary when you survive shit and can Rest at the end of the turn. And lol SAtk is the most unnecessary EV investment ever on something that can get +6 in 2 turns. So Manaphy is even more dangerous abusing its defenses.
 
Sebastian said:
I agree that the best Manaphy spread is a very defensive one. Right now I just won a battle on PO by defeating life orb kingdra one-on-one with Manaphy, because LO Outrage couldn't 2HKO (I was using 252 HP/80 Def Bold), so I took one Outrage, Tail Glow, took another, Rest. Speed is not so necessary when you survive shit and can Rest at the end of the turn. And lol SAtk is the most unnecessary EV investment ever on something that can get +6 in 2 turns. So Manaphy is even more dangerous abusing its defenses.
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This is just being discovered now? Physically defensive CM Manaphy is, and always has been, my Manaphy of choice. It is very, very hard to KO (Crocune on drugs), and even without any perma-rain, like in 4th gen, a Damp Rock rain is more than enough to set up too many Calm Minds to be able to stop. Surf/Energy Ball/Ice Beam aren't even 4-moveslot syndrome: at +6, you only need two to KO almost everything!

That said, Nattorei is the best counter for any water type ever, in general, so maybe Manaphy is less of a threat this time around than it was in 4th gen. But given, one counter does not an OU make.
 
Boil Over is a really underrated move on Manaphy. If you can get the burn on Nattorei, you can set up on it =D
 
Chou Toshio said:
So, any more opinions on latios?

Draco Meteor only does 60-70% to Scarf Rachi, that's fair and all.
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I really dont know why almost noone has brought him up till now he is way more broken than the lousy Deoxys guys could hope to be. I mean if you just spam Specs Draco Meteor nothing can stop you even Nattorei takes a Huge chunk (like 35% if i remember right and this was with some SpDef EVs) and Blissey can't switch in because it gets crippled by Trick (wich also got a slight buff now)
 
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