• Snag some vintage SPL team logo merch over at our Teespring store before January 12th!

np: ORAS UU Stage 3.1 - Sex on Fire [Victini Remains BL]

Status
Not open for further replies.
So I'm sure some of you remember my minor meltdown during the Serperior test because outstanding morons like the poster I've quoted were bringing up absolutely terrible arguments to keep Serperior legal, or straight-up not talking about whether or not Serperior was broken but saying how they'd vote to keep Serperior legal regardless. So I will once again implore Sam and Hikari to please leave the public suspect tests behind and reinstate the Council Vote because this shit is unacceptable.

OK, so this is going to sound like a rehash of what I said when you said this exact same thing in the last suspect test, but I feel the need to express new ideas about why exactly suspect tests are a good thing and why a few people saying some pretty ridiculous stuff just because they're new to the site doesn't mean that Smogon should give up its foundations. Back in the Serperior retest you stated the same harsh opinions based on a debatabely irrational fear which is completely understandable; you said that you were worried that the opinions of a few people, because of their radical ideas which were on the opposite side of popular opinion and many of said opinions, to put it plainly, didn't have rational basis. I understand where your fear is coming from here, but it's important to keep the basis of Smogon in mind, and the fact of the matter is that all Smogon tiers are meant to be tiered by the people that play in it. Up to when koko gave up his leadership, UU (as I'm sure you're aware) was the only tier that did not do public suspect tests. To the vast majority of players (i'm talking across all skillsets here) this was enraging, since it meant they had little to no impact in the direction the tier was headed. Smogon tiering is based upon the idea that the players have the ability to determine which way their tiers head- even if it's just one vote out of 200 or 300 total votes, when a person knows that they have contributed democratically to the tier, they have a sense of self-fulfillment. This isn't just because Smogon wants to give their users a sense of self-fulfillment, because that would be rather ridiculous; the way I see it, the players create the popularity and the metagame itself, so why should a select group of people, not even selected by the main group of people themselves, be allowed to make every possible decision in the tier? Yes, most tiers have a council, and those councils are there for more important decisions which would be better placed in the hands of this council than a large group of players (such as quickbans) but realistically, the players control the tier they play, and that is how it has been for years on this site.

The idea that we should give it all up and just let the council control the tiering because of the behavior of a very select group of (mostly newer) players is idiotic. You can't blame people like the person you quoted above, who only has 15 posts on the site, as an example of how public suspect tests are "wrong" and that we should return to a council system. While I am trying not to bash on newer, less experienced players who have opinions like this and like the one that drove you off the edge in the Serperior retest, I'm just saying that sometimes the opinion of those less experienced can be enraging to those players who are much more experienced and who take the direction of the tier they play seriously. These players are generally in the minority of those voting- much because of the COIL and GXE systems limiting those who can vote, and generally more experienced players have a much easier time obtaining reqs than less experienced players. let me put it this way: if you waited until the suspect test was over, went through the entire post, and picked out posts that were as blatant like the post up above (and you know which posts I'm talking about), stating that they would unban the pokemon because of a personal opinion about it unrelated to its brokenness and effect to the tier itself- how many would you see? In all likelyhood, at least 85% of the minority votes (that is, no-ban in the Serperior test or ban in the Metagrossite test) were voted that way because of an opinion that had logical merit and the player was voting that way for what was more important to the future of the tier. Most likely, more that 85% of said votes would be "logical", but the 85% is the absolute minimum that I could see in UU.

so, a tl;dr for those of you who don't want to read this wall of text: don't take the opinions of a few people to resemble the ideas of an entire community of people, and don't make fears about opinions of players in the minority craft your opinions about smogon or uu's tiering policy. it's irrational and it's wrong.
 
So I'm sure some of you remember my minor meltdown during the Serperior test because outstanding morons like the poster I've quoted were bringing up absolutely terrible arguments to keep Serperior legal, or straight-up not talking about whether or not Serperior was broken but saying how they'd vote to keep Serperior legal regardless. So I will once again implore Sam and Hikari to please leave the public suspect tests behind and reinstate the Council Vote because this shit is unacceptable.


The thread is open to anyone who wants to express their thoughts. And if you remember you also got roasted for saying what you said. This thread is not nearly as bad as some of the threads you see in ou. Instead of just trying to be a dick to anyone who posts something you don't agree with, how bout you just properly state your side of the argument and not look like a complete dick. Trust me I used to be like you. I understand it can be frustrating as to what some people post but there is no need to have a hissy fit about it and act like an angry 12 year old. If you honestly think this thread is bad then your dead wrong. There are threads way worse than this one and while yes there have been some questionable posts, there also have been some solid arguments directed towards that players thoughts. There is absolutely no need to try and bash less experienced players as if you honestly think they are that bad, chances are they might not even obtain reqs to begin with so it might not even matter in the long run making it all the more reason not to throw temper tantrums over posts on the thread.

(soz for double post but that was a little ridiculous)
 
Last edited:
Holy fuck it's been a while since i laddered,

Anyways, after around 30 grueling and tearful battles (lol), I honestly don't even have a clear stance as to whether I'd support a ban. Although its most common set in xy (cb) is definitely not as potent as it was before, it still has the luxury of being able to choose what threats it wants to beat since now it's apparent that people aren't just going for the "either click v create or u turn" route as it was before. However, add in new 'mons like mega Beedrill and Salamence, as well as the surgence of Mega Aero as a top dog threat in this meta, there are even more things in this meta than before that can pack a ton of pressure on Tini, which quite honestly wasn't the case in xy. To clarify my stance, I still believe Tini can pressure the living shit out of a lot of teams since people are definitely gonna innovate their way out of the more conventional sets and pull off a wide variety of "surprise motherfuckers" on those who have their pants pulled all the way down, but will the extra checks in this meta as opposed to the xy meta be able to withstand the immense offensive pressure that tini exerts here?

It's 1:00 am here, fk my grammar issues here lol
 
Idk if there are people who share my sentiment (probably not) but tbh I preferred having Victini in the old meta than now. I basically grew up in the Victini meta of XY and I actually liked it there as it promoted usage of Pokemon like Arcanine which doubled as a check/counter to Jirachi. Jirachi wasn't broken in XY, but it was probably the most centralizing element bar maybe Suicune in the tier at the time. Also we had stuff like Starmie who could switch roles between offensive or defensive, Raikou as an offensive check, and Gligar was actually being used compared to now, and I'm pretty sure it was Slowbro and Mew's leaving the tier to OU that pushed it above the edge (correct me if I'm wrong it's been a while since XY). Even the versatility of Victini couldn't stop these mons from having an influence on what set it'd most likely run as the speed tier would make it have to Scarf to compete, or just force them into Banded sets which could be punished after a V-create or being locked into a specific coverage move.

But that was then and this is now. Times have changed, and with that the tiers are different due to usage stats, incoming megas from ORAS, and general trends. The current meta of UU can't handle the versatility that Victini brings to the table at the moment. The reason people keep looking at LO as being broken is because what is actually gonna punish it? It's base 100 Spe is actually a really nice base speed for all the things it hits being able to outspeed and use the appropriate coverage move to knock down all the relevant things on the opponent's team. It's just too easy to slap onto a team and find some sort of use in battle. Of course it can't touch everything, it is liable to all hazards, and finds itself easily trapped or revenged due to V-Create's speed drop, but this never stops it from doing its one job in the match whether it to be sweep by itself or weaken its teammates checks. While ORAS brought megas that raised the bar on speed tiers, none of them want to switch in except maybe Mega Aerodactyl which is one of the most notable in the tier. Even then Mega Aero prefers the safe switch as Glaciate means it will be slower and possibly fall to a Tbolt/Bolt Strike or even just getting hit by the Electrical move which is incredibly pressuring for a team to face.

I'm only about halfway through req's but this suspect is particularly indulging as I've missed using V-create spam. Currently though I'm abstaining until I finish my req's but I'm leaning towards ban; it is a strong, centralizing Pokemon in the tier, but the tier has ways of beating it. The main problem I see is not really about how to beat Victini as it is definitely doable, but how do you stop it from doing its job of clearing holes for the rest of its teammates?
 
So ive actually only been aying competitive uu for about 1 to 2 weeks atm and have been prettty successful thus far, although ladder does t mean everything ive been able to maintain a high rank with this being said i wasnt aware of the xy meta but to now it seems that victini can be one of the best revenge killers in the tier. Ive been using a balanced hazard stack team + pivoting offense and walls with pidgeot victini and fortress to keep immense offensive pressure on my opp. I see a alot of checks to it such as pursuit aero and pursuit krook, suicune can reliably switch in even with bolt strike as its a 3hko along w swampert and aolomomola being able to switch in as long as it doesnt carry eball. With this being said i believe it lt puts TONS of pressure on an opponent by creating offensive pressure on opposing teams but i believe their are significant checks and counters in the tier to help when preparing for victini when building so my vote would be unban it in the tier
 
I see a alot of checks to it such as pursuit aero and pursuit krook, suicune can reliably switch in even with bolt strike as its a 3hko along w swampert and aolomomola being able to switch in as long as it doesnt carry eball. With this being said i believe it lt puts TONS of pressure on an opponent by creating offensive pressure on opposing teams but i believe their are significant checks and counters in the tier to help when preparing for victini when building so my vote would be unban it in the tier
Pursuit Aerodactyl and Krookodile are being so common now that it's safe to say Victini is centralizing the tier. Also you say Swampert, Suicune and Alomomola are switch ins? [Do note that the best set right now is the Life Orb Specially Biased set]

252 SpA Victini Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That means Suicune can come on it, but it's obvious answer is to use Rest, and get killed by Victini.
Alomomola is a okay switch in, but it gets outclassed by Vaporeon, Suicune, Empoleon and Swampert so running this in any team except a bulky playstyle is bad.

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 232 HP / 24 SpD Alomomola: 255-302 (48.2 - 57%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

on the other hand...

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Energy Ball vs. 232 HP / 24 SpD Alomomola: 382-450 (72.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, not a counter.

The point is, the most dangerous sets are the Life Orb, and then Choice Banded, the former having NO TRUE COUNTERS DEPENDING ON IT'S MOVEPOOL. If it predicts a Krookodile switch, Energy ball bops it. Usage of Pursuit Aerodactyl means you're filling your megaslot for ONE particular pokemon shows how unhealthy for the tier it is. I hope you change your decision and vote to make the tier healthy.
 
Arifeen your not at liberty to decide which set is the best. That is a totally subjective statement. The set used is totally subjective to the builder and what fits on his team. While life orb is good its super prone to being trapped and has no pivotting ccapability. It also is worn down easy between orb recoil and stealth rock. I will say tho victinis unpredictability is for sure an issue as it can be a mixed wall breaker or revenge killer with ease that seems to be the main problem i see right now
 
Arifeen your not at liberty to decide which set is the best. That is a totally subjective statement. The set used is totally subjective to the builder and what fits on his team. While life orb is good its super prone to being trapped and has no pivotting ccapability. It also is worn down easy between orb recoil and stealth rock. I will say tho victinis unpredictability is for sure an issue as it can be a mixed wall breaker or revenge killer with ease that seems to be the main problem i see right now

Of course I can pick the best set because that set can beats it's counters and checks. As you said LO set is prone to being trapped, the only decent trapper being Krookodile and it can outspeed it and kil it on the switch.

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krookodile: 283-335 (85.4 - 101.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And it's like Mamoswine, it does not need to be pivoting if it just attacks from both sides and have a better bulk and speed stat than Mamoswine meaning it can come in front of some relevant mons. As for unpredictability I have said it once and I'll say it again: Sacking 1-2 pokemons in order to scout its sets is not healthy for the metagame and the move V-Create is ridiculously strong for this tier. Therefore Victini is, indeed broken and centralizes the meta exponentially.
 
There have been a lot of points made about why Victini is broken and why it may not be. Though, personally, I'm unconvinced either way. I haven't played the ladder all too much myself but I think some high level replays of Victini in action could really add to this discussion, if anybody has any?
 
Of course I can pick the best set because that set can beats it's counters and checks. As you said LO set is prone to being trapped, the only decent trapper being Krookodile and it can outspeed it and kil it on the switch.

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krookodile: 283-335 (85.4 - 101.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And it's like Mamoswine, it does not need to be pivoting if it just attacks from both sides and have a better bulk and speed stat than Mamoswine meaning it can come in front of some relevant mons. As for unpredictability I have said it once and I'll say it again: Sacking 1-2 pokemons in order to scout its sets is not healthy for the metagame and the move V-Create is ridiculously strong for this tier. Therefore Victini is, indeed broken and centralizes the meta exponentially.


The definition of just best set is too vague, because that can mean two different things. In terms of the set that fits best on most teams in the metagame because it can fill a variety of roles and more or less pick its checks, I would agree the LO Mixed set does this best. However part of Victini's quality is that it can run many different sets that can be customised to the team its on. Need a revenge killer that can keep momentum with great coverages? Scarf is your friend. Want to bluff a Choice set to lure something to make holes for something else? Expert Belt or Flame Plate could be what you're looking for. Want to really punish defensive teams? Sub PuP could do with more love. All of these sets are viable and in a way, the best set because they're the best at what they do and contribute best in their role for its team.

I hate the word overcentralising because it's turned into such a buzzword for any suspect as an easy reason to claim something is broken, and a lot of people say something along the lines of "This team carries this for this mon, mon is overcentralising" when in reality, if you examine it, that statement is kind of a fallacy when you consider every team should have something for a threat in some way. I try and carry one hard check and one soft check to Suicune, Pidgeot, Feraligatr and Aerodactyl on every team I make because they're top threats and if I dont, I'll be making my team susceptible to matchup and making my opponent's wincon that much easier to achieve. This is further substantiated when you look at the pokemon that are apparently becoming more popular because Victini is "overcentralising" the tier. The likes of Snorlax, Rotom-H and Krookodile have become increasingly popular in a Victini metagame, but by no means were they bad pokemon before Victini came along.

When I first started playing this suspect, I was very much against Victini returning, but I'm starting to be slightly swayed as I've found in practice, as ive played more of the metagame, it's not as overbearing as I first thought it would be. My main issue with it is its variance in sets, because this makes it almost a given pokemon on most balance and offense, as you can adapt it to fill your needs and to an extent, a team not running Victini in this style could be considered inferior by dint of not having a Victini. Still leaning ban, but slightly closer to the fence now.
 
Considering mixed Life Orb does what its "other" best set does best (break walls like a motherfucker, and I hope that English was understandable) WHILE breaking conventional counters for the Choice Band set requiring either Pursuit support after sacking a Pokemon or super niche counters that fail to accomplish much else but wall Victini, I'd say the mixed Life Orb set is its best set.

And yes, stop being so hostile, stop assuming the worst is going to come to pass, I'll work on that. Assuming this test doesn't go down the shitter I'll be better about it.

Short on time now, but I saw someone mention something along the lines of "If you need to carry Pursuit Mega Aero that means something is totally wrong." And they were kinda wrong. Aerodactyl is the best Pokemon in the tier, so carrying it isn't really a sign of something being wrong, since he checks one of the OTHER best Pokemon in the tier, Mega Pidgeot as well as like 8 other really powerful Pokemon. There's a lot of reasons to use Mega Aerodactyl, Victini being another one isn't really something to write home about. Admittedly, Pursuit fell out of favor as an option after Alakazam left, but now there's a powerful Psychic-type to trap, so now it's back on the table.
 
I agree with ur sentiment about pursuit aero totally i think the common consensus about victini is that its unpredictability makes it so hard to play around mixed wall breaker, nuke band or revenge killer Are all extremely viable. With this being said these are all amazing in theory but we still have to see how the meta reacts. Still leaning toward unban atm
 
I haven't played the ladder much, but dosen't Mega Aero check Victini? Also, if you play right, Scarf Salamence can too (bar Glaciate). Actually, let me rephrase that: Scarf users can that are close in speed to Victini can. For example, Krookodile and Chandelure can. But, Victini, like xbooty said, is unpredictable. Still, probably unban for me.

EDIT: Scarf users that can hold their own against Victini can check it, not all Scarf users.
 
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 180-212 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 209-246 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Just thought I'd remind everyone that while it does check victini, M-aero is a very shaky check to it. Although unlikely, it is very possible for the victini user to win the prediction war against M-aero, stay in, and KO it (though it depends with victini on it having bolt-strike/thunder, OR being banded and rocks up).

But yeah, pursuit mega-aero is NOT guaranteed to pursuit trap victini, is the main point I'm trying to get across.
 
All I'll say is my og volt-turn team, which I've been incredibly thrilled to use again, depends on Victini; I'm biased as fuck for it to stay, and I don't think it should, for many of the reasons already listed.

I think the loss of Slowbro is far more important that some people will care to admit; this meta doesn't particularly have effective Tini counters, and I wouldn't say that Krook pursuit is the mandatory go-to, nor should it be.

Although Victini has the potential to be easily revenge killed via pursuit, we've lost mons on the "revenge killing" end of the spectrum (Specs Raikou, LO Zam) that used to love coming in on a revenge kill and wipe the floor clean with a -1 Tini, especially with SR damage. Frankly, the meta has sped up accordingly in order to deal with the loss of many Pokemon (look at Nidoqueen, Blastoise, etc), so former checks such as Blastoise no longer have the bulk to take 2 Choice Banded V-creates.

Anyways, if my logic seems loose and all over the place, it's cause in my head I already know what I'm deciding.
 
Last edited:
Ok so I got reqs a few days ago, and I believe Victini is a tad too good for the tier. If tini did not have such a Viable mixed set, and it was limited to just band or Scarf I would for sure vote unban. But the LO mixed sets are waaaay to much for the tier. There is absolutely no true counter to Tini depending on the moveset. All of the Physical counters to tini get decimated by Energy Ball, Psychic, Glaciate, etc. Obviously Victini can not 6-0 teams, but it pokes whole in teams like no other. Victini stayed UU in XY due to having mons like Slowbro in the tier, and Choice band being the most practical set. That made Victini far more one dimensional and easier to play around. So yeah Victini is not broken, but is too unpredictable and over-centralizing for me to keep it in the tier. Ban
 
Last edited:
I think what people have to realize with Tini is that our tier could take it. The meta would just be centralized around it since it is the best wall breaker and even a great sweeper with some of its sets, like it is right now. Its not that hard to find the two checks to it and have a well functioning team. The question is, at what cost? Right now balance is liability and matches are being decided by team match up more than before
Its like rocks paper scissors (bear with me, there are exceptions)

Paper People overpreping(more than the suggest 2 checks) for tini, Usually Stall (YABO's HO team kinda goes in this catergory since it deals with tini really well)
Rock Oversupporting Tini, firespam etc. Usually HO/Offense
Scissors Normal teams, that dont rely on the two above. Usually Balance

Paper beats Rock 9/10 times, cores like Mence, M-Pert and Cune make Tini and cores that support a liabilty and take advantage of the strat. These team over compensate and end up being weaker to teams that dont rely on Tini. Rock beat scissors for obvious reasons, a well put together core that supports and utilizes Tini has a huge advantage over teams that dont overprepare for it. While you won't see this pattern every game, it is a dynamic that has been created due to Victini and is kinda fun now but its going to lame very soon. This situation is similar to Zygarde's, where we can trick ourselves that the meta is balanced by letting a mon overcentralize, but that is boring and stupid. Without tini we have a good meta that takes skill and isn't so match up based.

I don't think I need to write what I'm gonna vote in bold, it's pretty obv lol.
 
Hello, longtime lurker here. Just thought I'd share a few things I've noticed about Victini in this test...

So far I believe the decision of allowing the V-creating little monster back into UU meta has been a good one so far, but I am still not seeing it as much as I'd like to really test its mettle. It may actually be a boon to variety in the tier itself as I'm also seeing more M-Ampharos, bulky Arcanines, Swamperts, Krookodiles, M-Blastoises, bulky Rotom-H, etc. On this note, I believe Victini should be welcome in UU today -

Regarding Victini's killability:

I haven't found that very difficult at all. It has a plethora of difficulties staying alive in endgame thanks to the ubiquitously almighty SR and an insane amount of priority (notably: Sucker Punch) in this high speed tier. Popular scarf users like Hydreigon, Mence, Hera, Meinshao can outright kill nonscarfed variants, and who's to say conclusively that scarfing Victini is its best set anyhow?

Choiced Victini limits its survivability even more, and it can be very easy to play around if you can identify its item and countering Bolt Strike with a heavy ground like Mamoswine, Krook, Swampert, Nidos or Donphan. SR weakness makes it difficult to spam U-turn. Most important of all is that its signature move comes complete with a speed and defensive stage reduction, allowing things that aren't even very fast a chance to snipe it out with a revenge kill or start setting up with Pokemon such as: DD Mence, Moxie users, Bulky SD Feraligatr and more. The speed reduction can make it a liability if it absolutely needs to hit with a fire attack. Even Foul Play Umbreon can threaten Jolly nonscarf Victini after a speed drop, OHKO after SR damage.


I apologize if it's too early to be posting clacs, but here are a few short ones:

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Another reason for Victini's allowance is that it can threaten Crocune, who is a scumbag, and yet even Victini cannot OHKO Crocune with CB Bolt Strike.

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 254-300 (62.8 - 74.2%)
 
Regarding Victini's killability:

I haven't found that very difficult at all. It has a plethora of difficulties staying alive in endgame thanks to the ubiquitously almighty SR and an insane amount of priority (notably: Sucker Punch) in this high speed tier. Popular scarf users like Hydreigon, Mence, Hera, Meinshao can outright kill nonscarfed variants, and who's to say conclusively that scarfing Victini is its best set anyhow?

Choiced Victini limits its survivability even more, and it can be very easy to play around if you can identify its item and countering Bolt Strike with a heavy ground like Mamoswine, Krook, Swampert, Nidos or Donphan. SR weakness makes it difficult to spam U-turn. Most important of all is that its signature move comes complete with a speed and defensive stage reduction, allowing things that aren't even very fast a chance to snipe it out with a revenge kill or start setting up with Pokemon such as: DD Mence, Moxie users, Bulky SD Feraligatr and more. The speed reduction can make it a liability if it absolutely needs to hit with a fire attack. Even Foul Play Umbreon can threaten Jolly nonscarf Victini after a speed drop, OHKO after SR damage.

It has a stealth rock weakness but who doesn't run hazard control when they have a SR weakness pokemon in it? You said, Scarf users like Hydra, Mence, Hera and Shao can kill it. But do note that no good players will keep their Victini on these things. Well, they can stay in on Heracross because the Banded set completely outclasses the Scarf set, it won't be staying in on anything else. Also you've said that Banded Victini is limited to it's usage, that's the point. The only reason you'd run a banded Victini is for nuking atomic bombs in V-Create. Nothing except bulky waters can switch into it reliably. Also you've said that you can switch to a Heavy Ground user to counter bolt strike. Victini will only be using Bolt Strike in front of a Bulky Water, and nobody switches a Victini into a bulky water lol. SR weakness doesn't make it worse, it can U-Turn nevertheless packed with a good spinner/defogger [Notably Forretress, as it has good synergy with Victini]. V-Create is so powerful that it's drops aren't even worth it. Even if they dropped by 2 stages it wouldn't still be worth it. The power is immensely obliterating. However, I do agree that it can be revenge killed by Krookodile and Pursuit Mega Aerodactyl, but DD Mence can only work if the opponent does not have a Mence check, or if the player is bad and doesn't V-Create again:

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamence: 219-258 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamence: 146-172 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

Moreover, with Mamoswine in rise people are using Salamence lesser and lesser but it's still great ngl, and they are less likely to set up/Outrage if you have a sharder. Furthermore, as I said, Moxie users won't do much unless they get pursuit trapped and the only one doing so is Honchkrow. Others cant do much because Victini can switch out. Finally, Umbreon? No Victini is gonna stay in on that lmao, not from full. And finally, this is not a reason:

Another reason for Victini's allowance is that it can threaten Crocune, who is a scumbag, and yet even Victini cannot OHKO Crocune with CB Bolt Strike.

xD
 
Thanks for the response, but allow me to spit some of your logic right back atcha'


I think the best way of discovering just how OP a mon is in a tier should also depend on what that mon can explicitly hard counter. When you frame it like that, the question becomes: What attacks can Victini safely switch into before it gets grounded down and easily picked off? Looking at it as a revenge killer, it's a sure nuke I'll give you that, but it actively only counters things like Blissey, Chesnaught, Forry, Florges, Trevenant (lol) and to an extent (considering possible speed tie) Shaymin.



It has a stealth rock weakness but who doesn't run hazard control when they have a SR weakness pokemon in it?

Everyone runs hazard control, but if there is the expectation that all good players are capable of keeping hazards off the field at all times, then I would argue there should also be the expectation that all good players are equally capable of keeping SR on the field by blocking Defog with taunt, Rapid Spin with Ghost, or setting up something dangerous that diverts attention from clearing the field.


You said, Scarf users like Hydra, Mence, Hera and Shao can kill it. But do note that no good players will keep their Victini on these things.

True, but this assumes a match is still in early phase and no material has been played or worn down.


Nothing except bulky waters can switch into it reliably. Also you've said that you can switch to a Heavy Ground user to counter bolt strike. Victini will only be using Bolt Strike in front of a Bulky Water, and nobody switches a Victini into a bulky water lol.

Not unless they really need something like Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Suicune or Slowking taken out. And even then, there doesn't always need to be a bulky water right in front of someone's Victini to gamble on Bolt Strike helping out in the long run, especially if considering the drops from V-create (which can and do factor in sometimes).

Zen Headbutt and Psyshock are good STAB all things considered, but choiced varients once again heavily walled by the likes of Cresselia, Steels, Dark types, and SD Doublade who can, in some cases, threaten immediately with Shadow Sneak or set up SD on a choiced Zen Headbutt.

Regarding the speed stat in UU, if Victini outspeeds one of the many very fast Pokemon central to the tier then you know immediately that it is scarfed. Things don't always have to die to know what item it's using. U-turn is innocuous enough and is used most often in early scouting.


SR weakness doesn't make it worse,

This is tantamount to saying neutrality to SR doesn't make it better. Neutrality to SR damage is certainly better than weakness to SR damage, so yes it does make it worse.


However, I do agree that it can be revenge killed by Krookodile and Pursuit Mega Aerodactyl, but DD Mence can only work if the opponent does not have a Mence check, or if the player is bad and doesn't V-Create again:

Fair points about all of this plus Mamo and the drop in Mence usage, but Mence can also be bulky and it does get Roost after all, burning V-create PP. +DEF Umbreon (at max health) can take on Victini though. Then there's Feraligatr’s Aqua Jet, CB Entei ES, LO Luke ES, and M-Sharpedo, etc... Point is, I'm still thinking of things that can attack and harm Victini, and I can't have thought of and posted them all, can I have?


Also fuck Crocune. I don’t want to be forced to use Dry Skin Pokes just to counter it. Bolt Strike for diversity win.
 
Doctor Swagmoar

Just going to point out, none of the aforementioned Choice Scarf Pokemon can actually OHKO Victini, therefore they cannot outright KO it. Many a times during this suspect test have I stayed in on a Scarf Hydreigon early game to gain momentum via U-turn. Honestly though, Choiced Victini isn't really very easy to play around. I'm not going to bring up the "in the hands of a good player" stuff because frankly a good player can make a Pokemon that needs extensive support like Shedinja work well. Even against the average player who can at least somewhat predict, you're still going to have to hope he clicks the move you want him to so that banded doesn't wreck your soul. I wouldn't say Victini is a boon to variety. In fact, I think it's the opposite, I've been seeing a huge increase in Pursuit Krookodile, as well as Snorlax. The only 2 Pokemon that can probably be accounted for in terms of variety are physically defensive Arcanine and Mega Ampharos. A lot of Pokemon can be easily picked off after coming in on hits, it's how the cookie crumbles, so Victini having this fault is honestly not really a fault, considering it isn't meant to be a wall anyhow. Choiced variants getting walled by Cresselia isn't true, as Banded V-Create 2HKOes and Victini could always just Trick. Also Doublade cannot really immediately threaten Victini with Shadow Sneak, even +2 Shadow Sneak doesn't OHKO. Yes, Victini is heavily damaged, but is it forced to switch out? Not in the slightest. I don't think we should be deciding what to ban or unban based on the simple mindset of "Is it OP?", however, this is just my opinion. I personally think to vote on "Ban" or "Unban" based on what the Pokemon in question does to the metagame and if the Pokemon in question is just too good at doing what it does.

PS: Crocune has a lot of countermeasures outside Dry Skin users, including the various Electric-types, Psyshock CM users, Guts Pokemon, etc, so you're in no way forced to use Dry Skin Pokemon. I'm not going to count other Suicune sets since you explicitly said CroCune.

Arifeen

Honestly, I'm kinda lost trying to read your post halfway since "V-Create is so powerful that it's drops aren't even worth it. Even if they dropped by 2 stages it wouldn't still be worth it." Are you trying to say that it isn't worth using V-Create because of the drops or are you trying to say it's worth spamming V-Create despite the drops?
 
Arifeen

Honestly, I'm kinda lost trying to read your post halfway since "V-Create is so powerful that it's drops aren't even worth it. Even if they dropped by 2 stages it wouldn't still be worth it." Are you trying to say that it isn't worth using V-Create because of the drops or are you trying to say it's worth spamming V-Create despite the drops?

The latter one friend.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top