Some people seem to be salty about this ban. I would like to add that even though it does suffer from 4 move syndrome, that leads to a guessing game which is not healthy play because it does not rely on strategy or prediction but luck. Competent players should have good prediction but in order to predict it must be predictable. Also, this pokemon is not necessarily OP; that being said it IS centralizing. Every team needs a solid check/counter. Come to think of it the only pokemon that was banned that I couldn't decently check was Salamence. Everything banned was centralizing. I cannot necessarily define why a centralized metagame is a bad thing but it does limit what pokemon are viable granted some pokemon will always be more viable than others. That being said I will be voting against the ban but I won't be dissapointed either way.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]
- Thread starter haunter
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You're forgetting that Greninja has 5 other teammates. I'm going to quote ZANBAKUResh because he said something that flat out reks the 4MSS argument:
Yes, Greninja's going to be walled by something when you run certain moves, but that's why you have other teammates to help you out in areas you can't go past with Greninja alone.
My replies and reasoning in bold
Greninja has 5 other teammates, but we are focusing on just greninja right now.
If you want me to emphasize, the only reason why you guys want it banned now is cause of GShot. TBH i was surprised it got promoted to S in XY because you could literally slap on almost any fairy type on the team and you are finished. Now, thats not possible obv.
It is the jack of all trades when it comes to coverage but even then its teammates cant help it as
a. it cant switch in from any of its teammates without taking a chunk of health
b. it has to risk the switch out
etc.
Even then gren usually doesnt see its play on the field until the end of the battle as it can only revenge kill/late game sweep. Its also hard to clarify teammates when no pokemon is listed at all.
jtal2000 First off based on the team you can figure out what greninja is using. For example, if a team of lets say samurott,Bisharp and Greninja, you will probably predict it will use Low Kick, etc. Second off Physical greninja is a joke, and HP's are passive. Greninja has the potential to kill a pokemon it is into battle with and switch out after a threatening revenge killer comes in. I can name 3 pokemon who do that too. TFlame, Lando T, and some MLop Variants. should we ban those pokemon too?
TWave users force a switch out into other pokemon and even then promotes the use of stalling it. With TWave up, Gren's base speed is 377/4, making it slower than Conkeldurr. Chansey can take 3 gunk shots iirc and so on.
I understand he is a fast sweeper. His Ability is great. so on so on. but the thing is, is that
most pokemon do get 1+ kills on HO teams. Forcing gren to switch out on pokemon is dangerous as they can set up and sweep your whole team. You gotta understand that gren cant just switch out and get away with it. keldeo can setup CM. TFlame can setup SD, etc. Greninja is countered by pokemon, and saying it has no counters is stupid cause you guys are talking about 6+ moves when it can run 4. with every coverage move there is a counter, i promise.
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Even though it doesn't provide major defensive options for the team, the mere sight of it in Team Preview meant that you have to play your plays out carefully because if you lose out on any 50/50 (it's actually lesser than a 50/50 in your favour but for the sake of argument it shall just be 50/50) you can potentially flat out lose your mons and this is what strains teambuilding. Granted this is the case for every mon in existence but for Gren's case, you have to factor in his 4MSS and that is what works for him, instead of you.
Slow Turn/Switch solves this problem actually.
Okay, some points made here I want to clear up.
a) It doesn't switch in from teammates unless on predicted double switch or something, yes that is true, but once it is in nothing switches in on it, which is even better. Slow volt-turn or double into greninja is all that is needed, not that hard to get it in
b) What do you mean risk the switch out? It hits something really hard on the switch, maybe 2HKOs and if it does then it gets a kill, then just switches out from a scarfer trying to revenge kill it. It easily gets 1 to 2 kills per battle AT LEAST, if it doesn't you are
a) using it wrong
b) awful with predictions
c) Sweeping with another pokemon
Greninja is too good to downplay it because YOU have difficulty getting it in. In my experience in Wi-fi battles it isn't that hard to bring in or use as a revenge killer. It is one of the best revenge killers in the OU tier with (arguably) the most useful coverage and ability to hit all "checks"
Edit: Greninja'd about slow volt-turn... ZANBAKUResh why... :D
Credit to my fren Darius:
I feel like Gren is in the same boat as Lando-T in the sense that you lose nothing from slapping it on your team. Its the go-to offensive mon for the majority of teams, and base,103 SpAtk seems like so much more when its main quote on quote "STABs" are base 80+, further improved by Life Orb. The main problem I have with it is that its defensive checks are limited to:
Tentacruel / Chansey / Porygon / Empoleon/ M-Saur
Now, these are named "Checks" because an appropriate coverage move can beat them. Extrasensory, although rare, can bop both Saur & Cruel. Chansey / Emp / Porygon get destroyed by Low Kick (in Chansey & Porygons' case, if the Stone gets Knocked Off for whatever reason) Not to mention a good player can always outplay you and pivot out with U-Turn. Switching around to scout for certain moves puts the Gren player in a very favorable position, as hazards+that small amount of damage can make sweeping easier for another offensive partner (Lopunny / Bisharp) These mons also pressure / destroy his main checks, which the Gren player can constantly take advantage of by pulling doubles & U-Turning out once again to the appropriate check, all while racking up hazards damage (on top of Gunk Shots poison chance, turning 3HKOs vs mons like Chansey into easy 2HKOs)
What I'm saying here is that Gren has a nice present for every would be counter, and its pretty predictable when said Mon will come in to take a hit, which teammates can take full advantage of.
Greninja is also a huge threat to every relevant play style. Typical Balance with Tran+Clef+Bro gets absolutely destroyed by Gunk+Pulse+Low Kick and/or Hydro. Ferro of course isn't a very solid answer since they call me HP Fire & Low Kick, once again. Its amazing vs Offense, as it OHKOs the vast majority of mons there bar Keld, who doesn't appreciate a Gunk Shot / HP Grass. Stall can even get 6-0d if they decide to be bad and let Chansey get weakened / switch into a Knock Off / switch into U-Turns repeatedly. Matchups are always in Gren's favor BAR vs:
Scarfer (Ie; Keld, but switching it in reveals the obvious Scarf)
Powerful Prior users like BandNite / Talon (In Dnite's case, it'd have to be at at least 70% if I'm not mistaken)
Thund sacking itself just to get off a T-Wave LOL
You know what's similar with every one of these scenarios? Gren can just switch to X pivot to take on said Mon, while you're forced to stay in and make a predictable play just so that something doesn't die later.
In conclusion, Greninja is way to good of a Mon not just because of STAB everything, but powerful moves to back it up. Having to run Emp / Chans / Porygon / Tenta / Saur just to have a chance of beating this thing (who are suboptimal mons in the first place, and cant fit on most teams bar Venusaur) is pretty ridiculous. Being essentially forced to run an offensive check (which are also very limited) is also dumb, and limits teambuilding in itself. Hence overcentralization.
The only real problems Gren faces is terrible 4MSS, but even then, that only really comes in to play vs defensive checks, and those four moves are usually enough to massacre entire teams. So basically what I'm saying here is, its a near perfect Mon lol.
I see no real reason to not ban it. Did I mention mons like Sceptile / Manectric can only check this thing ONCE THEY MEGA which is fairly hard to do vs the majority of the meta, as they don't have a lot of favorable matchups in the first place.
But yeah, that's my opinion guys [: Tell me if I missed something
Edit: Very similar to Genesect except doesn't have a boosting move+Scarf is ass on it
Edit: It took me way to long to write this shit LOL
BAN
I feel like Gren is in the same boat as Lando-T in the sense that you lose nothing from slapping it on your team. Its the go-to offensive mon for the majority of teams, and base,103 SpAtk seems like so much more when its main quote on quote "STABs" are base 80+, further improved by Life Orb. The main problem I have with it is that its defensive checks are limited to:
Tentacruel / Chansey / Porygon / Empoleon/ M-Saur
Now, these are named "Checks" because an appropriate coverage move can beat them. Extrasensory, although rare, can bop both Saur & Cruel. Chansey / Emp / Porygon get destroyed by Low Kick (in Chansey & Porygons' case, if the Stone gets Knocked Off for whatever reason) Not to mention a good player can always outplay you and pivot out with U-Turn. Switching around to scout for certain moves puts the Gren player in a very favorable position, as hazards+that small amount of damage can make sweeping easier for another offensive partner (Lopunny / Bisharp) These mons also pressure / destroy his main checks, which the Gren player can constantly take advantage of by pulling doubles & U-Turning out once again to the appropriate check, all while racking up hazards damage (on top of Gunk Shots poison chance, turning 3HKOs vs mons like Chansey into easy 2HKOs)
What I'm saying here is that Gren has a nice present for every would be counter, and its pretty predictable when said Mon will come in to take a hit, which teammates can take full advantage of.
Greninja is also a huge threat to every relevant play style. Typical Balance with Tran+Clef+Bro gets absolutely destroyed by Gunk+Pulse+Low Kick and/or Hydro. Ferro of course isn't a very solid answer since they call me HP Fire & Low Kick, once again. Its amazing vs Offense, as it OHKOs the vast majority of mons there bar Keld, who doesn't appreciate a Gunk Shot / HP Grass. Stall can even get 6-0d if they decide to be bad and let Chansey get weakened / switch into a Knock Off / switch into U-Turns repeatedly. Matchups are always in Gren's favor BAR vs:
Scarfer (Ie; Keld, but switching it in reveals the obvious Scarf)
Powerful Prior users like BandNite / Talon (In Dnite's case, it'd have to be at at least 70% if I'm not mistaken)
Thund sacking itself just to get off a T-Wave LOL
You know what's similar with every one of these scenarios? Gren can just switch to X pivot to take on said Mon, while you're forced to stay in and make a predictable play just so that something doesn't die later.
In conclusion, Greninja is way to good of a Mon not just because of STAB everything, but powerful moves to back it up. Having to run Emp / Chans / Porygon / Tenta / Saur just to have a chance of beating this thing (who are suboptimal mons in the first place, and cant fit on most teams bar Venusaur) is pretty ridiculous. Being essentially forced to run an offensive check (which are also very limited) is also dumb, and limits teambuilding in itself. Hence overcentralization.
The only real problems Gren faces is terrible 4MSS, but even then, that only really comes in to play vs defensive checks, and those four moves are usually enough to massacre entire teams. So basically what I'm saying here is, its a near perfect Mon lol.
I see no real reason to not ban it. Did I mention mons like Sceptile / Manectric can only check this thing ONCE THEY MEGA which is fairly hard to do vs the majority of the meta, as they don't have a lot of favorable matchups in the first place.
But yeah, that's my opinion guys [: Tell me if I missed something
Edit: Very similar to Genesect except doesn't have a boosting move+Scarf is ass on it
Edit: It took me way to long to write this shit LOL
BAN
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I promise you this, whoever runs U Turn for room of its EXTREMELY valuable slot places is about as smart as Wiz T7 when hes drunk.
Oh absolutely, just of note that it does get U-Turn and thus opens up another option for it. It's not the best move, in fact it kind of sucks, but it can be used as a way to gain momentum instead of predicting switches. It is definitely a dumb thing to do, but it CAN be used and that's why I brought it up.
reposting this from victory road forum hope that's ok
o_o guess i have dissenting opinion but if i were to have to vote right now i'd say no ban, but that might change depending on how much better/worse suspect ladder is. i think that ppl are really overstretching the ability greninja has to break teams down, as almost all teams i've seen built for oras really aren't prepared for meta at all regardless of whether greninja is in the tier or not.
what a ton of people(including myself) seem to assume is that gren is running at least 6-7 moves at once rather than constraining it to its most common set in oras of gunk/low kick/beam/dpulse, albeit leaving few mons that can't be 2hkoed on switch-in/
however similar to how landorus-i was in xy(and still is now to an extent), most team archetypes barring stall/some balance will inevitably have to have offensive checks to greninja(which are much more widespread with introduction of fast newmegas, scarf lando, rise in rock polish sets etc.), as its coverage is difficult but far from impossible to deal with otherwise. however, both of these pokemon have important differences in that greninja is much faster, while landorus-i has the ability to spam insanely strong earth power and luring its checks with knock off.
the main point i'm trying to make is that because the meta at the moment is more offensive doesn't make greninja broken, and a more passively oriented meat doesn't make landorus-i broken, just that right now greninja is better. this may seem obvious, but it's really important in order to understand that the oras meta is still young, and i don't think oras is stable/ will remain even remotely the way it is right now as time goes on, making a greninja ban shortsighted and unnecessary in the grand scheme of the tier.
of course, i could be completely wrong; i usually am.
o_o guess i have dissenting opinion but if i were to have to vote right now i'd say no ban, but that might change depending on how much better/worse suspect ladder is. i think that ppl are really overstretching the ability greninja has to break teams down, as almost all teams i've seen built for oras really aren't prepared for meta at all regardless of whether greninja is in the tier or not.
what a ton of people(including myself) seem to assume is that gren is running at least 6-7 moves at once rather than constraining it to its most common set in oras of gunk/low kick/beam/dpulse, albeit leaving few mons that can't be 2hkoed on switch-in/
however similar to how landorus-i was in xy(and still is now to an extent), most team archetypes barring stall/some balance will inevitably have to have offensive checks to greninja(which are much more widespread with introduction of fast newmegas, scarf lando, rise in rock polish sets etc.), as its coverage is difficult but far from impossible to deal with otherwise. however, both of these pokemon have important differences in that greninja is much faster, while landorus-i has the ability to spam insanely strong earth power and luring its checks with knock off.
the main point i'm trying to make is that because the meta at the moment is more offensive doesn't make greninja broken, and a more passively oriented meat doesn't make landorus-i broken, just that right now greninja is better. this may seem obvious, but it's really important in order to understand that the oras meta is still young, and i don't think oras is stable/ will remain even remotely the way it is right now as time goes on, making a greninja ban shortsighted and unnecessary in the grand scheme of the tier.
of course, i could be completely wrong; i usually am.
It is not the fact that it IS running 6-7 moves but that it CAN BE running that many and more. Depending on what it uses every check that it has can be destroyed. No Extrasensory? MSaur and Tentacruel, but with Extrasensory these get wrecked. It is really the selection of which checks you want to beat or which ones your team is least prepared for. In this case it is very easy to fit onto a team and very hard to predict it's precise moveset without scouting.
This is my first post. I have been lurking, please alert me if I need to lurk moar.
Oh Greninja, I am very on the fence about this mon here.
I'll start out with his pros. Greninja is an absolute monster on paper (in practice too but we'll get to that). He has the coverage options to hit nearly every 2HKO every mon in the game. Directly switching into this thing is a scary thing, especially for heavy offense teams. His list of counters depends on his moveset, but determining what set it's running is never particularly easy. Which leads me to the ways of dealing with this thing.
1. Scouting- Mons with protect, double switches, and certain scarfers can help to reveal greninja's movepool and help you figure out what mons on your team can serve as a reliable check. For example, Sp.Def jirachi with protect can scout for dark pulse, if its there your venusaur may be a good check because few greninja pack extrasensory and dpulse.
2. Scarfers, Priority, and faster mons- I rank this strategy below scouting, because with scouting its movepool, you don't necessarily need to lose a member of your team. However, especially for HO teams, a sac n' switch to one of these mons is one of the only ways to handle greninja. That doesn't mean that its a bad one though. Many people I find, overestimate greninja's ability to just switch out when these threats are sent in. Sure greninja can just switch, but that means your opponent now has to deal with a scarf terrak, keldeo, etc, which is not exactly easy. Mons with priority and u-turn can allow you to build momentum against a greninja team. So even though gren can just switch, the fact that the opponent is having their mons weakened is being highly underestimated.
3. (By far the worst IMO) Wear it down- Greninja's life orb is, for some variants of stall, the only way to keep greninja from rampaging. With hazards and life orb and status, wearing out greninja is, in desperate times, a viable strategy.
Some arguments I've heard compare greninja to Mega Heracross, in the way Heracross devastates stall, Greninja devastates offense. While these arguments aren't perfect, especially considering greninja can often put in good work against stall as well, having mons that almost always ruin a play style seems to be totally ok when its stall, but when a mon comes through that ruins offense, people tend to be somewhat hypocritical.
Another thing to consider (and many do not care at all about this, but I'm certain some do), is the way the community looks to those outside of it. Greninja's popularity and relatively low stats, will undoubtedly create some uproar from casuals, and the banning of a mon that I find to be manageable, makes our community look a little ban happy, and unwilling to adapt.
That being said, are the adaptations that we must make over centralizing. From my personal experience I'd say no. My current team, carries none of the "standard" greninja checks, tenta, empoleon, chansey, but by scouting and strong, faster mons (that I probably would've used anyway), I've found myself rarely being swept by greninja. I've certainly lost a mon to it, but when I bring in the faster mons I carry, I find that greninja's ability to just switch out can often mean an opponent being placed in a position where I can sweep.
Overall Greninja is a monster, this cannot be denied, but I find playing around it to be easier than what many in this forum have been saying so far. So for me its a *no ban* but if it does end up being banned I could understand why.
Oh Greninja, I am very on the fence about this mon here.
I'll start out with his pros. Greninja is an absolute monster on paper (in practice too but we'll get to that). He has the coverage options to hit nearly every 2HKO every mon in the game. Directly switching into this thing is a scary thing, especially for heavy offense teams. His list of counters depends on his moveset, but determining what set it's running is never particularly easy. Which leads me to the ways of dealing with this thing.
1. Scouting- Mons with protect, double switches, and certain scarfers can help to reveal greninja's movepool and help you figure out what mons on your team can serve as a reliable check. For example, Sp.Def jirachi with protect can scout for dark pulse, if its there your venusaur may be a good check because few greninja pack extrasensory and dpulse.
2. Scarfers, Priority, and faster mons- I rank this strategy below scouting, because with scouting its movepool, you don't necessarily need to lose a member of your team. However, especially for HO teams, a sac n' switch to one of these mons is one of the only ways to handle greninja. That doesn't mean that its a bad one though. Many people I find, overestimate greninja's ability to just switch out when these threats are sent in. Sure greninja can just switch, but that means your opponent now has to deal with a scarf terrak, keldeo, etc, which is not exactly easy. Mons with priority and u-turn can allow you to build momentum against a greninja team. So even though gren can just switch, the fact that the opponent is having their mons weakened is being highly underestimated.
3. (By far the worst IMO) Wear it down- Greninja's life orb is, for some variants of stall, the only way to keep greninja from rampaging. With hazards and life orb and status, wearing out greninja is, in desperate times, a viable strategy.
Some arguments I've heard compare greninja to Mega Heracross, in the way Heracross devastates stall, Greninja devastates offense. While these arguments aren't perfect, especially considering greninja can often put in good work against stall as well, having mons that almost always ruin a play style seems to be totally ok when its stall, but when a mon comes through that ruins offense, people tend to be somewhat hypocritical.
Another thing to consider (and many do not care at all about this, but I'm certain some do), is the way the community looks to those outside of it. Greninja's popularity and relatively low stats, will undoubtedly create some uproar from casuals, and the banning of a mon that I find to be manageable, makes our community look a little ban happy, and unwilling to adapt.
That being said, are the adaptations that we must make over centralizing. From my personal experience I'd say no. My current team, carries none of the "standard" greninja checks, tenta, empoleon, chansey, but by scouting and strong, faster mons (that I probably would've used anyway), I've found myself rarely being swept by greninja. I've certainly lost a mon to it, but when I bring in the faster mons I carry, I find that greninja's ability to just switch out can often mean an opponent being placed in a position where I can sweep.
Overall Greninja is a monster, this cannot be denied, but I find playing around it to be easier than what many in this forum have been saying so far. So for me its a *no ban* but if it does end up being banned I could understand why.
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^here's my live celebration of the creation of this thread.
Yea I've been having a tough time with this thing for a while and I normally just resorted to running Thundurus to Prankster T-wave him from the start of the battle since most people were willing to sacrifice their Greninja for a Thundurus. I really have no use for pokemon like Blissey and Chansey since they're most effective on stall teams and the majority of teams I use are balanced or bulky offense. Once ORAS came out I started using Tentacruel and it was surprisingly effective at not only checking Greninja but also other threats and rapid spinning hazards away. Of course Extrasensory was a thing but I think I only got hit by that once so overall I would have to say I could manage to defeat Greninja without too much work.
With that said this thing is completely broken and I can't wait till it is finally banned. Balance and Offense will be so nice to use once it's gone.
Here's my take on Greninja:
Gunk Shot was everything Greninja needed to cover some of its most common checks and switch-ins. Now that Greninja has access to a 180 BP physical attack to compliment its amazing special coverage, the only things that can afford to safely switch into Greninja have to first scout its coverage moves which is a dangerous hassle that oftentimes leaves you guessing and playing defensively with no real benefit.
I've noticed over the past couple of months that people think U-Turn is a bad option on Greninja. Having tried U-Turn in a few situations, I quickly realized why it's a bad option. Almost every time Greninja gets a switch-in or revenge killing opportunity it can completely turn the game around by forcing the opponent to make sacrifices. Its power, speed and coverage are enough to pass up STAB U-Turn because 90% of the time it can just grab a KO against whatever switches in regardless. For reference, I can't think of anything equally fast and powerful that is always willing to give up STAB U-Turn in favor of Hidden Power Fire or Grass, both of which are more useful. I see this as a testament to Greninja's dominance in OU. It's like if Scarf Genesect could switch moves lol
Lastly, looking at the viability thread there are only a select few pokemon that cannot be 1-2HKO'd by the Hydro/Beam/Gunk/HPfire set. Slowbro, Def Rotom-W, Bulky Gyarados and Mega Venusaur. Maybe bulky TTar. And all of these guys still take serious damage upon switching in, especially if hazards are present. Sure, good prediction can allow you to switch in on a resisted move - problem is that there are so many pokemon that are still slower and in KO range regardless. Talonflame is one of the only reliable revenge killers that doesn't need a scarf to get the job done, but have fun trying to switch in unless you're specifically baiting a Low Kick or HP.
ban (:
Gunk Shot was everything Greninja needed to cover some of its most common checks and switch-ins. Now that Greninja has access to a 180 BP physical attack to compliment its amazing special coverage, the only things that can afford to safely switch into Greninja have to first scout its coverage moves which is a dangerous hassle that oftentimes leaves you guessing and playing defensively with no real benefit.
I've noticed over the past couple of months that people think U-Turn is a bad option on Greninja. Having tried U-Turn in a few situations, I quickly realized why it's a bad option. Almost every time Greninja gets a switch-in or revenge killing opportunity it can completely turn the game around by forcing the opponent to make sacrifices. Its power, speed and coverage are enough to pass up STAB U-Turn because 90% of the time it can just grab a KO against whatever switches in regardless. For reference, I can't think of anything equally fast and powerful that is always willing to give up STAB U-Turn in favor of Hidden Power Fire or Grass, both of which are more useful. I see this as a testament to Greninja's dominance in OU. It's like if Scarf Genesect could switch moves lol
Lastly, looking at the viability thread there are only a select few pokemon that cannot be 1-2HKO'd by the Hydro/Beam/Gunk/HPfire set. Slowbro, Def Rotom-W, Bulky Gyarados and Mega Venusaur. Maybe bulky TTar. And all of these guys still take serious damage upon switching in, especially if hazards are present. Sure, good prediction can allow you to switch in on a resisted move - problem is that there are so many pokemon that are still slower and in KO range regardless. Talonflame is one of the only reliable revenge killers that doesn't need a scarf to get the job done, but have fun trying to switch in unless you're specifically baiting a Low Kick or HP.
ban (:
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What makes Greninja unique in this regard is the sheer amount of defensive Pokemon it can lure and eliminate compared to conventional offensive Pokemon, making it an easy glue for teams with otherwise gaping weaknesses to certain defensive threats. Greninja just provides too much utility in one slot to be healthy. It's a sweeper, but its also a wallbreaker, and a lure, and you can lead with it to. It's too good and is guaranteed at least one kill per game unless youre bad.
Before X&Y there was no way, but the addition of Gunk Shot & Low Kick made this thing an absolute monster - especially against Chansey when she's lost her Eviolite (she fairs reasonably against even the strongest special attacks from Greninja). Easy kills against Clefable, Azumarill and spdef Sylveon are also appreciated considering that all three used to be pretty solid checks to even the strongest 'Ninja set. There are few checks/counters to Greninja due to its amazing movepool and sheer power of Protean+Life Orb (not implying that these traits alone make it ban worthy).
Because of the lack of easy switch ins, you need to scout Greninja like hell, racking up lots of residual damage on anything not named Chansey just to figure out what it's running. Priority (mm Scizor) is that much more appealing, as are Scarf Landorus-T and Thundurus, both of whom seem undeniably more common than they did when ORAS OU first came out. In fact, it's likely that without a Lando/Thundurus/Chansey on your team you're a sitting duck, and even with one of them you often have to make risky plays to avoid Greninja's Protean power to OHKO things. Oh yeah, and did I mention that Lando/Thunderus can't even switch in? They're just really reliable and useful revenge killers.
I think that Greninja also greatly improves the viability of the (hated) stall team: making it Life Orb itself to death is one of the few guaranteed ways to get it out of the picture. That's not to say stall is necessarily evil, but we should scrutinize anything that makes a certain playstyle that much more viable just by existing.
All of this doesn't even mention that that Greninja also revenge kill a huge percentage of the metagame in its own right, as long as it's not Scarfed or named Talonflame it can usually come in and blast you (or just bluff) with it's huge move pool. Teams that rely on entry damage also love Greninja's ability to scarf off anything that doesn't have sky high defenses. Against balanced/offensive teams, Greninja is likely to get clean 2HKO's on almost everything. I don't feel extremely strongly that it should be banned (not like Salamence/Mawile at least) but it's definitely spooky. Suspect test should be a good indicator of exactly how broken this thing is.
Because of the lack of easy switch ins, you need to scout Greninja like hell, racking up lots of residual damage on anything not named Chansey just to figure out what it's running. Priority (mm Scizor) is that much more appealing, as are Scarf Landorus-T and Thundurus, both of whom seem undeniably more common than they did when ORAS OU first came out. In fact, it's likely that without a Lando/Thundurus/Chansey on your team you're a sitting duck, and even with one of them you often have to make risky plays to avoid Greninja's Protean power to OHKO things. Oh yeah, and did I mention that Lando/Thunderus can't even switch in? They're just really reliable and useful revenge killers.
I think that Greninja also greatly improves the viability of the (hated) stall team: making it Life Orb itself to death is one of the few guaranteed ways to get it out of the picture. That's not to say stall is necessarily evil, but we should scrutinize anything that makes a certain playstyle that much more viable just by existing.
All of this doesn't even mention that that Greninja also revenge kill a huge percentage of the metagame in its own right, as long as it's not Scarfed or named Talonflame it can usually come in and blast you (or just bluff) with it's huge move pool. Teams that rely on entry damage also love Greninja's ability to scarf off anything that doesn't have sky high defenses. Against balanced/offensive teams, Greninja is likely to get clean 2HKO's on almost everything. I don't feel extremely strongly that it should be banned (not like Salamence/Mawile at least) but it's definitely spooky. Suspect test should be a good indicator of exactly how broken this thing is.
Surprise! Fun stuff aside, I know that I don't talk OU that much or probably play it quite as much as some (ok, most) of you guys, but I figured I would still chime in with my thoughts as I have played a bit the past few days as well as toward late XY and noticed how good Greninja is. I feel the biggest issue with Greninja isn't really the Speed. It's the simple fact that it almost literally chooses its own counters. If there's some defensive or slower offensive threat that you need Greninja to beat, it probably has a move that can do that for you. Between Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, and Gunk Shot, Greninja can cover pretty much everything it needs to on its own. From there, it can just support its team. For example, I personally use it with Latios and use HP Fire so Lati can get free Dracos (Lati also beats Scarf Keldeo, which is nice) You can pack Extrasensory to doom Tentacruel and non-Scarf Keldeo (or be a lord and catch Scarf Keldeo on the switch-in) Low Kick can let Greninja get the best of SpDef Heatran and Tyranitar if they're feeling ballsy. There really just isn't much that Greninja can't do offensively, and the real sticking point is Protean. Protean is what makes Greninja so hard to switch into. The coverage is great, but being able to get a STAB boost on EVERYTHING is really what pushes it over the edge. As long as the opponent can't outspeed Greninja and it has the proper move for the supposed "counter", it probably won't even need to predict. Protean, Speed, and crazy good coverage combine to make it to where I feel like you need to pack two answers to Greninja, just to cover yourself on a possible coverage move. That just doesn't seem healthy imo, but maybe I'm missing something important that better, more knowledgeable players notice. So take my thoughts with a grain of salt (I guess?)
There is no adapting to Greninja. You can say that priority destroys it, but would it stay in on something that could kill it? 2:Greninja has no counters, and no offensive switch ins. A counter is somthing that can switch in, and take 1 more hit than it takes to the poke that switches in. He does have many checks, but hardly any counters, and they are not viable in OU. That makes him overcentrealising 3: He is not a Ubers or OU mon, he would be a Ubers BL if there was one.
4: many BL pokes become usable again. Diggersby and togekiss to name a few. All fairys become viable again. Many balanced pokes replace greninja. 5: You say he dosent hit hard because of his low attack stats, but it is practically base 138 attack stat and a base 153 sp attack with stab to all moves. It is a bad idea to make an assumption of what moves a greninja is going to run. Ban this Arceus Wannabe
While Gren seems to be wrecked by priority, it is still the best Revenge Killer in the game. Protean allows Gren to play even somewhat defensive. Azumarill switches into Hydro Pump? Now Greninja resists Aqua Jet. Bisharp switches into Dark Pulse? Same thing here. Conk can't switch into Gren and RK it just because of either Extrasensory or Gunk Shot.
If you don't know Gren's set, you have to heavily rely on predictions, pulling doubles from Sylveon to Scizor to Rotom-W to scout for occasional HP Fire, and you know, prediction argument usually goes both ways. You know that either you get overpredicted and lose something in process or just will have a moment when you need to sac something to bring your check, Greninja switches out, and these things go again.
I think this thing can be compared to BW Hydreigon, but thanks to Gren's speed, it doesn't have every base 100 as its check, and it doesn't have to rely on stat-lowering moves.
The only thing that makes me doubt is that Gren is worn down by Life Orb, Stealth Rock, Sandstorm. And still it has time to damage teams hard. So now I'm on the ban side.
If you don't know Gren's set, you have to heavily rely on predictions, pulling doubles from Sylveon to Scizor to Rotom-W to scout for occasional HP Fire, and you know, prediction argument usually goes both ways. You know that either you get overpredicted and lose something in process or just will have a moment when you need to sac something to bring your check, Greninja switches out, and these things go again.
I think this thing can be compared to BW Hydreigon, but thanks to Gren's speed, it doesn't have every base 100 as its check, and it doesn't have to rely on stat-lowering moves.
The only thing that makes me doubt is that Gren is worn down by Life Orb, Stealth Rock, Sandstorm. And still it has time to damage teams hard. So now I'm on the ban side.
I honestly don't see any reason for Greninja to stay off ubers. So what if it faints to a mach punch from conkeldurr? So would Mega Lucario (correct me if I am wrong) and it was still uber'd. ORAS gave Greninja a neat toy to completely keep bulky fairy types in check in the form of gunk shot. A poster on the smogon facebook page noted gunk shot not having perfect accuracy. It really doesn't matter because gunk shot turns Greninja into a poison type thanks to protean even if it misses so it will end up resisting a fairy type attack allowing it to have another go at hitting gunk shot. Greninja does have super fast speed compared to pokemon who haven't mega evolved yet only really being outsped by Jolteon, crobat, electrode, aerodactyl and ninjask, none of which (except maybe crobat) really sees any play in OU.
The argument I saw on the smogon page "it is too frail to survive in ubers" is a fallacy. Whether a pokemon can or cannot survive in ubers is not smogon's priority. Smogon's priority is maintaining an OU metagame as healthy as possible. Doesn't mattter if Talonflame can OHKO it with brave bird, doesn't matter if conkeldurr can OHKO it with mach punch and doesn't matter if chansey/blissey wall it. Due to Greninja's super fast speed and extensive movepool that can manipulate it's own type, Greninja should probably be moved to ubers in my opinion.
nixhex edit: yeah, best to just ignore the facebook comments. most of them are made by casuals and are downright ignorant of our tiering processes.
The argument I saw on the smogon page "it is too frail to survive in ubers" is a fallacy. Whether a pokemon can or cannot survive in ubers is not smogon's priority. Smogon's priority is maintaining an OU metagame as healthy as possible. Doesn't mattter if Talonflame can OHKO it with brave bird, doesn't matter if conkeldurr can OHKO it with mach punch and doesn't matter if chansey/blissey wall it. Due to Greninja's super fast speed and extensive movepool that can manipulate it's own type, Greninja should probably be moved to ubers in my opinion.
nixhex edit: yeah, best to just ignore the facebook comments. most of them are made by casuals and are downright ignorant of our tiering processes.
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I think the problem with this argument is that Greninja is too simple to argue about. Unlike previous suspect tests and bans Smogon has had, they had something unique about them and can be explored. Aegislash (which I'm not even going to mention if I support these decisions to be banned or not because that will drag this argument into hell) had Stance Change in which created strengths and weaknesses depending on the two parties' move. Deoxys-D could be argued that it was only utility. Greninja on the other hand is just a great wallbreaker that can easily use its strength to prevent it's weakness to be exploited. This is why it's hard to bring new points to this thread: This is the first pokemon to be frail wallbreaker to be suspected.
Now there's bound to be some person to think of Deoxys-S to counter this argument. It would be a viable argument. Yet, the two still work slightly different. Deoxys (I'm just calling it this now because I'm mobile and it's a pain in the ass to swipe keys Deoxys just to get autospaced) works as a team player even it's a full out attacker (Bisharp comes to mind). Greninja can work alone on the other hand which just makes this thing even scarier in my opinion. Even if Greninja takes a layer of Spikes and Rocks, it doesn't have to worry taking too much compared to losing a Sash with Deoxys. Moving on.
EDIT: I know realize that Mega Lucario was a thing and I don't even care if I get hated here, but that thing was legit scary during that time of the meta. It also usually only had only three different typed moves, so those two are a bit different in terms of diversity.
Where I am going with this? I simply think that all points given within the thread were already known and the ban should be more considered on what's shown at a game than on paper. When it comes to the games, the obvious answer comes. It's over centralizing, deadly, and simply ruins the existence of balanced and bulky offensive teams.
BAN
Now there's bound to be some person to think of Deoxys-S to counter this argument. It would be a viable argument. Yet, the two still work slightly different. Deoxys (I'm just calling it this now because I'm mobile and it's a pain in the ass to swipe keys Deoxys just to get autospaced) works as a team player even it's a full out attacker (Bisharp comes to mind). Greninja can work alone on the other hand which just makes this thing even scarier in my opinion. Even if Greninja takes a layer of Spikes and Rocks, it doesn't have to worry taking too much compared to losing a Sash with Deoxys. Moving on.
EDIT: I know realize that Mega Lucario was a thing and I don't even care if I get hated here, but that thing was legit scary during that time of the meta. It also usually only had only three different typed moves, so those two are a bit different in terms of diversity.
Where I am going with this? I simply think that all points given within the thread were already known and the ban should be more considered on what's shown at a game than on paper. When it comes to the games, the obvious answer comes. It's over centralizing, deadly, and simply ruins the existence of balanced and bulky offensive teams.
BAN
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That's called a complex ban, and we don't do those, mainly because it opens up a whole can of worms of "anything can be made not broken if you just ban x, y, or z about it." Every time people start talking about complex bans, I just direct them to this video:
Is it really a complex ban, though? Not saying gunk shot should be banned or he had any right to suggest that, but smogon did ban swagger. Note that I do not advocate for gunk shot to be banned. Just want to know how banning gunk shot would be any more of a complex ban than swagger.
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