np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[Mur]

I concede that there are some other sets, but hear this one out. If you look up Aegislash on the dex you'll see several recommend sets. You will see those exact sets more than once. I'm saying that there are an innovative few as myself, but if you went to any RMT you'll see most run the same cookie cutter set. I've been lurking forever on forums and dex and I've learned most pokemon are so predictable if you've done research. I could tell so much about many individual pokemon. So how will there be different sets such as Head Smash and HP Ice if it's never ran? I agree that older players learn to go past predictability but generally recommend sets are the best and new players will follow it.

Also I'm not philosophical. If I've said anything that's wrong forgive me please. Thank you.

Well generally newer players follow the given sets because ya know their new and it is easier for them to build a solid team using said common sets but that is no argument especially since the decision effects tour play in more ways then one. It is very flawed logic to think "just because the inexperienced players only use this it's the only set that matters". Head smash and hp ice not common? They are both common and viable options on the LO crumbler set(head smash might be it's own set but it can easily find a spot on crumbler if need be which just shows how versatile this monster is). Also like what oryxslayer ninja'd me said aegi's large amount of sets will always be able to keep it ahead of it's checks and counters putting this tier in a continuous cycle of aegi dominating the tier. This is an unhealthy effect because this essentially means the meta will never be able to adapt to aegi since it will always be 1-2 steps ahead of the meta. Also it would appear that you seem to underestimate aegi's versatility since you talk like there is one main set with some innovative ones along the side while in reality there is like roughly 12(maybe more) viable sets all capable of hitting different targets or roles. AM posted something a few pages back with every set included so I would go look at that post before saying something like head smash hp ice are never used.

 

[oryxslayer]

Can you explain how it's changing now? The Metagame as you just stated most definitely will not change until the next batch of pokemon. With the addition of Aegislash the Metagame will change and new checks for it will be made. So the Aegislash user is like "so if these new checks are trouble I need to change some team mates" which you've stated will happen. So either way it'll be a loop

Is it changing now? From what I've seen on the suspect test ladder, the metagame wasn't changing, people weren't using outside the box threats like how tankchomp, tornadus-t, and raikou used to be (before they became standard threats). People were just sticking with their standard lop, lando, aegis, bish, and keld builds, because it was what works in the meta. There is no room for innovation in this meta, because in the cycle I described, it works in a non-overcentralized meta, leading to new strats to counter new strats. However, in the aegis meta, the first question anyone has to ask before coming up with a new set is, "can it beat aegislash reliably/does it give free turns to aegislash?" For many pokemon/sets, that is a resounding no, so people will go in a cycle of using the best aegis check, to the next one, and then back to the original one, because aegislash centralizes and makes OU about it and it alone.

 

[Noulis]

Is it changing now? From what I've seen on the suspect test ladder, the metagame wasn't changing, people weren't using outside the box threats like how tankchomp, tornadus-t, and raikou used to be (before they became standard threats). People were just sticking with their standard lop, lando, aegis, bish, and keld builds, because it was what works in the meta. There is no room for innovation in this meta, because in the cycle I described, it works in a non-overcentralized meta, leading to new strats to counter new strats. However, in the aegis meta, the first question anyone has to ask before coming up with a new set is, "can it beat aegislash reliably/does it give free turns to aegislash?" For many pokemon/sets, that is a resounding no, so people will go in a cycle of using the best aegis check, to the next one, and then back to the original one, because aegislash centralizes and makes OU about it and it alone.

Can you tell me why you are comparing a 2 week old metagame to one that had months to change and adapt to each threats? xD

 

[Let's go shuckles]

Can you tell me why you are comparing a 2 week old metagame to one that had months to change and adapt to each threats? xD

Because the idea of a suspect test is to see if it's a better metagame than the old one.

 

[Noulis]

Because the idea of a suspect test is to see if it's a better metagame than the old one.

isn't that an unfair comparison though? when we disscusing how threats are countered a metagame that has months under it's belt of cource will have more change to it too... so i can't see how is this fair as fsr as the changes inside the meta goes.

 

[oryxslayer]

isn't that an unfair comparison though? when we disscusing how threats are countered a metagame that has months under it's belt of cource will have more change to it too... so i can't see how is this fair as fsr as the changes inside the meta goes.

What you say is true, the suspect ladder isn't really comparable to the regular ou ladder. However, the suspect ladder is supposed to give us a glimpse of what the meta will look like, and I saw no innovation, no new sets, unlike other suspect ladders, where many people were trying new things, and finding creative ways to deal with the new top-tier pokemon replacing the suspected mon.

 

[Noulis]

What you say is true, the suspect ladder isn't really comparable to the regular ou ladder. However, the suspect ladder is supposed to give us a glimpse of what the meta will look like, and I saw no innovation, no new sets, unlike other suspect ladders, where many people were trying new things, and finding creative ways to deal with the new top-tier pokemon replacing the suspected mon.

well i don't know if it's that creative but someone a few pages back suggested ferrothorn with knock of for aegish and i believe that's a good one...idk if ferro with knock off is common in the current meta but i think it's not.

 

[oryxslayer]

well i don't know if it's that creative but someone a few pages back suggested ferrothorn with knock of for aegish and i believe that's a good one...idk if ferro with knock off is common in the current meta but i think it's not.

The guy who suggested later realized that ferrothorn failed to beat LO crumbler aegislash, plus there are the usual KS mind games. Ferrothorn was an interesting idea, but to be an aegislash check, the poke has to be able to take at least 2 hits before eating it. Innovation isn't good if it doesn't do its job effectively, so I don't really see that ferrothorn as innovation. If you can find multiple examples of creativity that was developed and actually works on the aegislash meta, show me, because right now, I have seen none.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

well i don't know if it's that creative but someone a few pages back suggested ferrothorn with knock of for aegish and i believe that's a good one...idk if ferro with knock off is common in the current meta but i think it's not.

No, it's not, and that's the problem. The fact that it carries it almost exclusively for Aegislash is just exacerbating the problem. It's less than subpar in any other instance and loses to its other sets.

EDIT: Ninjer'd

 

[pika pal]

firstly, a counter doesn't necessarily have to be a 100% one. those you mentioned are 100% ones, but there are many great lando checks such as torn-t, lati@s, and pratically everything that outspeeds it and hits it super effectively, like keldeo, weavile, cb azu, mamo, etc, or, if you're using stall, chansey/blissey. and then again, if the person is relying on those psychic types to beat lando-i, he will (assuming he's a good player) have countereasures for aegislash. so if there is a battle between lando + aegi vs lando counter + aegi counter, the battle will be decided on who plays better, which is exactly the goal of trying to have a competitively balanced metagame.

You used the term "counter", therefore that is the term I was applying in coming up with an answer. Yes, Lando-I has checks, so did Greninja, Aegislash has them, etc.

And part of the reason those three I listed are solid counters to Landorus-I right now is because they don't come with a massive opportunity or a necessity to prepare immensely for their counters. Having to prepare even harder for Aegislash in order to fit one of those answers on your team is a further constraint on teambuilding, but if I don't want to lose to Landorus-I/Aegislash cores, I have to prepare significantly for Landorus on top of preparing for the multitude of Aegislash's sets.

ok, aegislash does defeat those, but, then again, a well built team that relies on bulky psychics/faries to beat lop, will necessarily have answers to aegislash, which returns to my point (lop + aegi vs lop counter + aegi counter will be decided on who plays better). and tell me how pup or encore lopunny is coming close to get past chesnaught, slowbro, defensive celebi, etc.

+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 207-244 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Lopunny Subs or PuP's as Chesnaught comes in, and then forces it to predict. Chesnaught also has to come in immediately when Lopunny gets that first boost, because at +1, Lopunny can 2HKO it with either STAB + a HJK. Plus, if Chesnaught has to break a Sub, Lopunny has the option to make a second and Encore him into an exploitable move.

And I didn't say Lopunny was going to 6-0 Stall or anything. I said those options stopped it from being useless against non-offensive teams. Encore and Sub both give it opportunities to exploit defensive switch-ins.
+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 229-271 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not KOing, but I'd say that's respectable damage for what would otherwise be reliable switch-ins.

well i cant objectively prove it, i'm speaking based on my experiences on the ladder and watching the suspect tours. i went 41-10 on the ladder without losing to matchup a single time, and that was because my team (scarftar, ferrothorn, aegislash, gliscor, charizard-y, latios) was severely weak to lopunny, a mon which was being spammed. i lost one game because of a triple rock slide miss, another one because of a disconnection, and the other 8 losses were because i either choked or got outplayed. i also then laddered for fun with a team with no OUs just to try and prove how it was possible to be creative in the aegi meta and went approx 5-1 (i only got 4 replays though, 1, 2, 3, 4. well i forfeited the last one because i didnt need points, and u can argue i got lucky in some of those but yea). that coupled with a lot of creative teams we saw on yesterday's tour imo evidence how this metagame can be innovative and surprising.

Replay 1 - He quit after losing 3 bulky mons to a Mega Heracross, a Wallbreaker, before even attempting to retaliate. he also thought it would be a good idea to try using Slowbro against a Base 185 Bug Type with a 125 BP Stab. Tank or not, Slowbro ain't surviving a SE hit like that. And while not OU, I'm not sure how impressed I should be when the only mon you demonstrated work with is still a B+ threat, not to mention a Wallbreaker who killed 3 walls before the opponent quit.

Replay 2 - This one I can't argue, but I feel like a play at the end that might have hurt you would've been if he switch to Hydriegon for a Sac. At -1, it would've threatened your Heracross out and beaten Crawdaunt if you tried to switch. Wouldn't win him the game, but would've gotten one more faint in before losing to Hera.

Replay 3 - Early game he went for Fire Blast instead of Scald, despite your Aerodactyl clearly demonstrating it was a Suicide Lead and thus wouldn't hard switch to Whimsicott. He also chose to leave Aegislash in on your Diggersby, despite Slowbro having a better chance to survive even a LO Diggersby (King's Shielding makes me think he expected Scarf, because that would be a horrid move choice otherwise), would've broken your Sub with Scald and forced you out, barring the crit that occurred. Also took a somewhat uneccessary risk with Psychic over Draco Meteor on Turn 20, considering Draco would've gotten the KO on Heracross, Tornadus (Psychic does 76-90%), and Crawdaunt would've been much more dangerous to give a free-switch than Whimsicott. Leaving Diggersby alive also left Venusaur too weak to take a hit from your Heracross, which it could've survived and dealt 37-44% to your Heracross with Sludge Bomb. Might not have been a win all things considered, but the guy was playing oddly.

Replay 4 - He made 3 attempts to switch mons based on non-Attack moves into your Aerodactyl after already seeing it had Taunt, and went for Toxic over Shadow Ball with Aegislash, which would have served him better than losing the Taunt turn and then going to Manaphy, who can't set up either and ended up eating Taunt as well.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl in Sand: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

Again, while it may not have won, there wasn't anything on your team that made Stealth Rock important for him on Turn 13. Would've been better to go for a coverage move (if he had one), or Stall with Slack Off, forcing your Tornadus to take Sand Damage and LO recoil, not to mention potentially missing a Hurricane (not dependable, but didn't have too many options at that point anyway). Diggersby needed him weakened so you couldn't risk a switch
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 196-231 (46.6 - 55%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 147-174 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO

I assume your Diggersby had Quick Attack for Landorus, but the LO recoil would wear him out if he didn't come in on a weakened Hippowdon.


And all these replays were around 1400's, mid-Ladder. Considering how fast even less skilled players ladder due to a bias towards HO in suspect metas, I think these would've demonstrated more at a higher level.

they serve different roles, but they have terrible synergy if put together, since that's compounding a lot of weakness. also wtf? slowking gets paralyzed by jirachi, while starmie has natural cure; starmie fails to beat clefable but so does slowking; both beat hippowdon; both would beat that charizard y set (eq, flamethrower, wow, roost), and both would lose to max spa solarbeam zard, so i dont really understand the last part of your post.

Slowking gets paralyzed by Jirachi, but is Jirachi going to KO it after? Slowking's too slow to care about Paralysis.
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 82-97 (20.2 - 24%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
So Slowking spams Scald. If Jirachi gets burned, Slowking can then near 2HKO after Burn damage
164+ SpA Slowking Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 150-178 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
(~40% * 2) + 24% - 12% = 92% damage

Yes, this is a specific 1 v 1, but Defensive Starmie (Offensive runs Analytic > Natural Cure) does even less damage, and becomes an easy switch for the opposing team. Starmie doesn't quite beat this Zard-Y set. If it's coming to spin, it took Rock damage, potentially also missing some health from the TS
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Starmie in Sun: 144-171 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Slowking, meanwhile, runs Power Gem on standard AV specifically because it can survive any one hit from Zard-Y
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking in Sun: 72-86 (18.3 - 21.8%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 172-204 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
164+ SpA Slowking Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 264-312 (88.8 - 105%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

And my point wasn't that Slowking and Starmie should be used together. My point was that if he valued hazard removal enough to use them, he would have swapped Slowking for a different mon to answer Metagross, which there are in fact answers besides Slowking, especially since he also had Scarf Lando-T as a soft check.

the difference is people can actually afford to ABSOLUTELY COUNTER an S rank if there are only 30 A ranks instead of 53. especially if they have an aegislash, which blanket checks a lot of them. in the non-aegi but with gross/altaria metagame you need to counter those because they're S ranks, then you have an additional 51 very different mons to counter.

Aegislash blanket checks plenty, but he significantly inhibits the list of viable mons from which to pull checks for those remaining 30, especially since you also have to check however many sets Aegislash could be running. And "absolutely countering" something like Landorus-I when Aegislash forms cores to remove so many would-be answers is a huge teambuilding constraint, since by preparing to "absolutely" counter Landorus-I I have to run one of the aformeated Psychic types, and then I need something to check the opposing Aegislash, which at minimum is 1-2 more team slots (because no one Pokemon is going to consistently answer Aegislash as a whole). So that's 1/3-1/2 of my team spent on dealing with two Pokemon alone, not even with a guarantee they put in work against the remaining 28 Pokemon.

well, i honestly don't really give a fuck about how our tiering philisophy should be made. (and are you at least a tier leader to decide how it should be made anyway?) what i care about is how good the current metagame currently is. and i think a lot of people agree with me that oras ou is terrible right now, even if they want to keep aegi banned. and again, i prefer broken checking broken than nothing checking broken.

I don't claim to be a tier leader, but why do I have to be in order to argue why the one I'm seeing in the Aegislash test seems wrong to me? Do I have to be a Politician to voice my grievances with the way politics are handled in a nation?

My point of entry into competitive Pokemon was early XY, and I personally found the Aegislash meta incredibly stale. I couldn't build any team without using him and win consistently, but I got tired of every team I made basically only giving me choice over 5 members because I had to use Aegislash to optimize it. In spite of that, I argued for Aegislash to stay because I wondered if maybe I just wasn't seeing things. Then in the post-Aegislash meta I noticed a night and day difference in how my teambuilding worked. I didn't want Aegislash to stay because I found his game better, but because I leaned on his usage extensively for my teams.

And the bold emphasizes the conflict in viewpoints. I found one of the core unspoken rules for OU is usually considered that Broken should not check Broken. Even ignoring the idea of future tiering philosophy, bringing something into the Metagame hoping to fix it rather than see if it fits into something already working is counter-intuitive to that policy. If OU is terrible right now, then run other suspects to fix it and try bringing Aegislash back when it's not terrible.

It's not even like Metagross stayed by a landslide. His "staying" margin was only slightly below the margin Aegislash was banned by. There's no proof we couldn't test other potentially broken Pokemon before Aegislash (including a second Metagross test). If this had come after tests that definitively proved that nothing in OU was decided to be broken, I'd have less to argue, but this is only the 3rd test for ORAS after only testing two potential suspects. I'll stop going into other potential suspects, but my point is that adding Aegislash for this purpose doesn't make him an addition, it makes him a crutch.

 

[WebBowser]

So I know the suspect is over and all, but I figured that after embarrassing myself with KO ferro I'd keep looking for other counters.

So far I've found SP defensive Amoonguss

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 133-157 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 173-204 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(2HKO after LO recoil)
0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 338-398 (104.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

SP defensive AV tangrowth (hey, it's listed as an OU set in the calc)

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 117-138 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 152-179 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 242-286 (74.6 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 248-294 (76.5 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

uhhh, what other types are not weak to common aegi coverage moves? Let's try water!

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 122-146 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 205-243 (63.2 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yaaaaay crocune, doesn't even need to run ridiculous amounts of sp def investment either! Completely trolls sub-toxic as a bonus.

Here, have an offensive pivot too!

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 103-123 (32 - 38.3%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 134-160 (41.7 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Raikou Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 183-216 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 278-328 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

even if you go for the volt switch or tbolt, that's still a respectable amount of damage. Dies to LO headsmash tho, so watch out for that.

Heck, here's a wallbreaker that can break it!

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 135-159 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 330-389 (101.8 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 306-360 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

can't swap into LO, but the fact that a wallbreaker of all things can swap into it is actually pretty impressive.


Alright, I've given some very strong aegi checks that can fit into a wide variety of team styles and don't take up a megaslot. Pretty neat, huh?

Again, just spitballing ideas more then anything else. This post has no real bearing on whether or not I think aegi is broken (and frankly, my opinion doesn't matter anymore since I don't have reqs). Yaaaay spitball.

 

[Patolegend!]

So I know the suspect is over and all, but I figured that after embarrassing myself with KO ferro I'd keep looking for other counters.

So far I've found SP defensive Amoonguss

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 133-157 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 173-204 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(2HKO after LO recoil)
0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 338-398 (104.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

SP defensive AV tangrowth (hey, it's listed as an OU set in the calc)

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 117-138 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 152-179 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 242-286 (74.6 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 248-294 (76.5 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

uhhh, what other types are not weak to common aegi coverage moves? Let's try water!

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 122-146 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 205-243 (63.2 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yaaaaay crocune, doesn't even need to run ridiculous amounts of sp def investment either! Completely trolls sub-toxic as a bonus.

Here, have an offensive pivot too!

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 103-123 (32 - 38.3%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 134-160 (41.7 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Raikou Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 183-216 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 278-328 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

even if you go for the volt switch or tbolt, that's still a respectable amount of damage. Dies to LO headsmash tho, so watch out for that.

Heck, here's a wallbreaker that can break it!

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 135-159 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 330-389 (101.8 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 306-360 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

can't swap into LO, but the fact that a wallbreaker of all things can swap into it is actually pretty impressive.


Alright, I've given some very strong aegi checks that can fit into a wide variety of team styles and don't take up a megaslot. Pretty neat, huh?

Again, just spitballing ideas more then anything else. This post has no real bearing on whether or not I think aegi is broken (and frankly, my opinion doesn't matter anymore since I don't have reqs). Yaaaay spitball.

So, your counters:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 507-597 (117.3 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 390-459 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 413-487 (128.6 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 302-355 (94 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 309-364 (76.4 - 90%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 138-163 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The problem with 'slash is that you can't be sure which spectrum it's hitting from until it starts hitting you.

A set of Jolly SD, Head Smash, Iron Head, and Shadow Sneak (a more or less standard, viable set) ruins all of them, while outspeeding Tang, Amoongus, and Dragalge.

 

[WebBowser]

So, your counters:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 507-597 (117.3 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 390-459 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 413-487 (128.6 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 302-355 (94 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 309-364 (76.4 - 90%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 138-163 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The problem with 'slash is that you can't be sure which spectrum it's hitting from until it starts hitting you.

A set of Jolly SD, Head Smash, Iron Head, and Shadow Sneak (a more or less standard, viable set) ruins all of them, while outspeeding Tang, Amoongus, and Dragalge.

actually, you know exactly what spectrum he's going to be hitting on the moment he uses SD.

As far as stall and balanced are concerned, SD slash is one of the less threatening sets he can run because unlike the rest of his sets, it's incredibly telegraphed.

Remember it takes a turn for him to obtain +2, which gives you time to react. Any team prepared to deal with DD m-gyara can deal with SD aegi, they're pretty similar.

 

[MZ]

actually, you know exactly what spectrum he's going to be hitting on the moment he uses SD.

As far as stall and balanced are concerned, SD slash is one of the less threatening sets he can run because unlike the rest of his sets, it's incredibly telegraphed.

Remember it takes a turn for him to obtain +2, which gives you time to react. Any team prepared to deal with DD m-gyara can deal with SD aegi, they're pretty similar.

So once Aegislash uses SD it's obvious what kind of set it is, but before that it's a total surprise. In fact they get a free SD as you switch into Amoongus and now basically get a kill. Just because it's telegraphed after you use SD doesn't make it not a threat, and just because SD isn't as easily spammable as mixed doesn't make it bad. Also, teams prepared for mega Gyarados can deal with Aegislash? Gyarados is checked/countered by Keldeo, Mega Altaria, Ferrothorn, Azumarill, Chesnaught, Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth, Thundurus and Sylveon (there's more stuff obv but those are pretty much the main things). How the hell does that list deal with Aegislash well? Chesnaught yes but everything else clearly doesn't appreciate Aegislash's presence. In fact, just looking at it now, Mega Gyarados+Aegislash seems like a good core, not two mons that are stopped by the same things.

 

[LuKe_AA]

radianthero156's "unbiased" (altough I do like Aegislash, but I'll still "agree" to an exclusion from the "OU environment" as I call it, if it warrants too many problems) opinion is the only decent stuff I can read on these 46 pages of nothingness and I don't even know who that person'd be; I don't even lurk Showdown nor Smogon that much; I just gave it a go when Aegislash was (finally) getting another go for the OU "environment", so I might not even sound nor fit into any decision taking "apparatus" of the whole Smogon ****, and hell, I won't even have the time/patience to sit and Coil to 2700 on a site I rarely use, but:

- What overcentralization for Aegislash is so required anyway? It's no sheer ridicolous Mega Kangaskhan/Mega Gengar; It's no extra 20 Speed, massive Def/Atk output boost Mega Salamence (I called that ban when I saw its new speed, tho speed might sound pointless to some), it's no SuperFast-MassOHKO-AllSTAB-arChansey-Greninja; it's no 80 BP Priority backed by 105+Huge Power Mega Mawile (altough on that one, well, I lack enough data to comment in its defense, so no comment); it can run a plethora of sets, cool. so what? Is it the only one versatile Pokèmon? Landorus-T, Latios, Landorus-I, Mega Charizard Y (who can do more than just spam FireBlast/Flamethrower/Use Dpulse,SolarBeam, FocusBlast as coverage or Roost and the D-Dance I've seen for the sake of ... wasting a slot and letting an "idiot" wonder if it's using CharizarditeX) Talonflame, Rotom-W, BRELOOM (who someone blatantly (or stupidly) mentioned it DROPPING IN USAGE if Aegislash is ever to return), list might go on; not to mention, its so called "versatility" still has it leaning towards 1-2 sets, at best; while the rest gets outclassed; so, what "exactly" is it kept even banned for or question in its ban for? All I have read are melodramatics "the epithome of ridicolousness and overcentalizing 50-50 cents and whatnot".

- It's SLOW (and I mean, SLOW) AND its tanking capabilities only take it thus far and not as far as to even require an EQuake, Earth Power, Ghost, Dark, Fire Attack to wear it down; strong neutral attacks will STILL dent its so good "non recovery tanking capabilities" (Water Attacks from that "disgusting Pony Unicorn I mean Keldeo", tho still what you call an "S rank", but even "non S Ranks", like Gyarados, not to mention the already existing plethora of attackers which already used to pack attacks which also happen to put a huge dent on Aegislash like Knock Off Scizor, Azumarill (which is also slower than Aegislash and can hit it in Blade form AFTER TAKING A HIT), anything out of the 20+ Pokemon that can learn it ("oh noes, king shield"), VENUSAUR (a beast which might also require some specific team building, else you'll have a not so easy time beating down a "Tank" or "Wall" which actually packs some decent recovery and solid attacks, tho can still get worn down), the "dropping" BRELOOM (who can just put it to sleep and call it a day, similar to Venusaur, tho not necessarely), and I might just go on; my point is, I don't understand this overcentralization at all; as "someone" said, "checks suffice; and I can count more than Landorus-I's or Charizard-Y's, to be fair.

- As far as having Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham (who already damn lost its "power", or should I say "hype" anyway), Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gallade, other Pokemons (NOT) losing their "usage" (but simply having one more Pokèmon to consider when building a team around them), I can (not really) see the concern about this (however; if a Mega or non Pokèmon is already in the need of specific support for handling some threats, wouldn't that still warrant an inferior usage compared to other Megas-Non who require LESS support? Like Metagross, Landorus-I, Charizard-Y, Keldeo, etc); so what if people MIGHT end up (POSSIBILITY) using Gardevoir/Gallade/Heracross less but ALSO end up using Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria less (which people seem to be complaining about)? My major complain is that you people just keep banning things to "balance the equation" (which still remains unbalanced anyway).

I guess that's enough "questions" for now.

EDIT: "Oh; and if you don't even play Showdown much, why should you care"?
This game is heading to a point where it's either "Smogon" or Double Team/Fissure/Sheer Cold/Mega Kangaskhan/Legendary Spam. Even on the "actual" or "regular games"; so it's not just me "intruding or stepping" into "unwanted territory", but it's Smogon itself that does that (other option is to just play with people you know and done). Tho my statements above should be mostly taken as "questions", because, again, I don't have too much ground here.

 

[MZ]

Here's what I believe from what I've read. Most are going to be in favor of the ban because they claim there is no way to defeat or check Slash. I believe the Metagame is very stale and the adding of Aegislash will alter the game in a good way.

So basically you stated that you've got no other pokemon that can go head to head with Aegislash when that's never the situation. Slash is a slow pokemon and many out speed it and can more or less defeat it even with it going for the SD. If you already have, let's say a Ground type in and Aegislash is also in, meaning it's a favorable match up. If they don't switch in 2-3 turns depending on if they use KS they're defeated easily.

I agree with hin/her. You've got plenty of time to either cripple, mortally injure, or even KO Aegislash after you see the SD. True, the special set is incredibly more dangerous, but due to its low BP moves it should be justified it's easily dealt with since it can't boost Sp. Atk.

These are plenty examples of pokemon able to check it, especially Dragalgae. It's not the most powerful pokemon around, but it easily shows that Aegislash isn't as deadly as they suppose it is.

But anyway here's my consensus. Aegislash is doomed to Ubers until GF introduces a new Pokemon that easily beats it. Too many people are enraptured in the erroneous myth that it's the end of the world when Aegislash comes in. Even after the SD what's to keep you from forcing it out? Smh.

No, this kind of ignored the entire point of my post. It wasn't so much a pro or anti ban argument, as there isn't much point to do that now seeing as radianthero156 is the only person with legit unban arguments right now and voting submission is already up. The point was just to correct all the errors in that statement about SD Aegislash because it made no sense. He/she had a list of counters that lost to SD, justified it by calling it "telegraphed", and then said that Aegislash and mega Gyarados lost to the same things. I was just correcting that. And to answer your question about what stops you from forcing it out, at that point it's just gotten a free kill only so that you can know its set. Sounds good to me. Or maybe it has air balloon, or maybe it was saved as a late game sweeper and can't just be forced out because your check is too weakened. All of these sound like a plus for Aegislash. I'm not saying it's a godly uncounterable set, this is the situation described by WebBowser, not me.

 

[Mad Ram]

Here's what I believe from what I've read. Most are going to be in favor of the ban because they claim there is no way to defeat or check Slash. I believe the Metagame is very stale and the adding of Aegislash will alter the game in a good way.

But anyway here's my consensus. Aegislash is doomed to Ubers until GF introduces a new Pokemon that easily beats it. Too many people are enraptured in the erroneous myth that it's the end of the world when Aegislash comes in. Even after the SD what's to keep you from forcing it out? Smh.

Yeah, you never heard about the XY metagame at all, didn't you. If you did you would realize what people are saying. The problem with Aegi is that it's so good at covering multiple threats from all sides of the spectrum it becomes common on all kinds of teams. Not only that, but it is hard to check because it has SO many good sets; Crumblr, Sub Toxic, Swords Dance, Head Smash, Leftovers, Autotomize, all requiring drastically different counters and that's just what was found in XY! Because of this, using something countered by Aegi is such a liability because you need to fill at least half of your team with Aegi checks that might not even work because you forgot to cover HP Ice or some other move. Not only that but because of its versatility it can easily be made to selectively target another mon's counters and easily push them to the level of being broken. I mean how can you counter Landorus successfully when all its counters are torn to bits by Aegislash? This is why it was banned and why it should stay banned.

 

[LuKe_AA]

Yeah, you never heard about the XY metagame at all, didn't you. If you did you would realize what people are saying. The problem with Aegi is that it's so good at covering multiple threats from all sides of the spectrum it becomes common on all kinds of teams. Not only that, but it is hard to check because it has SO many good sets; Crumblr, Sub Toxic, Swords Dance, Head Smash, Leftovers, Autotomize, all requiring drastically different counters and that's just what was found in XY! Because of this, using something countered by Aegi is such a liability because you need to fill at least half of your team with Aegi checks that might not even work because you forgot to cover HP Ice or some other move. Not only that but because of its versatility it can easily be made to selectively target another mon's counters and easily push them to the level of being broken. I mean how can you counter Landorus successfully when all its counters are torn to bits by Aegislash? This is why it was banned and why it should stay banned.

Only difference: this is NOT the X-Y "metagame", just like it's not the BW/BW2 "metagame", as you people call it; it's the ORAS "metagame", which has "established itself", or rather has been established by you all who have played on Showdown, the "threats" have been altered and shifted, partly due to "your" banning of stuff and have a Metagame now headed towards these recurring issues of threats, checked by the Pokèmon in question, Aegislash, who, by itself, also has to contend with a plethora of other threats of the "metagame" and non threats, which ultimately cause its current "banned status" questioned.

Not to mention, its actual last ban was a pathetic 61% out of 100 People (One. Hundred. People). Out of 100 people, barely half could have a consensuos about it deserving an actual ban status. Now people question its return over a metagame which doesn't even "exist" anymore.

I still question its so called "versatility" as a warrant for a removal of the OU "environment". Many other have a versatile arsenal allowing said Pokèmon to threaten its "checks".

 

[WebBowser]

So once Aegislash uses SD it's obvious what kind of set it is, but before that it's a total surprise. In fact they get a free SD as you switch into Amoongus and now basically get a kill. Just because it's telegraphed after you use SD doesn't make it not a threat, and just because SD isn't as easily spammable as mixed doesn't make it bad. Also, teams prepared for mega Gyarados can deal with Aegislash? Gyarados is checked/countered by Keldeo, Mega Altaria, Ferrothorn, Azumarill, Chesnaught, Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth, Thundurus and Sylveon (there's more stuff obv but those are pretty much the main things). How the hell does that list deal with Aegislash well? Chesnaught yes but everything else clearly doesn't appreciate Aegislash's presence. In fact, just looking at it now, Mega Gyarados+Aegislash seems like a good core, not two mons that are stopped by the same things.

I'll admit that I was a bit hasty about comparing m-gyara to aegi, however a +2 aegi isn't some kind of unstoppable behemoth either. For example, Mandibuzz can swap into any move other then head smash and ohko with foul play

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 290-343 (68.5 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 73-86 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 265-312 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 66-78 (15.6 - 18.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Using the vs all calculater, I've also found Hippo, Quagsire(bolded because unaware quag is an unbelievably hard stop to this and is actually a pretty good mon on top of that), Zygarde, and M-Aggron as very solid SD aegi counters/checks. This isn't even taking into consideration that SD aegi is pretty easy to revenge kill.

Note that since SD aegi can only run 3 out of the 5 physical moves that he would want to run (shadow claw, shadow sneak, sacred sword, head smash, iron head), many mons can check him if he is missing one of those moves. For example, pdef gastrodon is a solid check to non-shadow claw varients, while pdef unaware clefable destroys any aegi lacking iron head.

 

[oryxslayer]

Only difference: this is NOT the X-Y "metagame", just like it's not the BW/BW2 "metagame", as you people call it; it's the ORAS "metagame", which has "established itself", or rather has been established by you all who have played on Showdown, the "threats" have been altered and shifted, partly due to "your" banning of stuff and have a Metagame now headed towards these recurring issues of threats, checked by the Pokèmon in question, Aegislash, who, by itself, also has to contend with a plethora of other threats of the "metagame" and non threats, which ultimately cause its current "banned status" questioned.

Not to mention, its actual last ban was a pathetic 61% out of 100 People (One. Hundred. People). Out of 100 people, barely half could have a consensuos about it deserving an actual ban status. Now people question its return over a metagame which doesn't even "exist" anymore.

I still question its so called "versatility" as a warrant for a removal of the OU "environment". Many other have a versatile arsenal allowing said Pokèmon to threaten its "checks".

Oh god, the quotation spam. But anyways, I feel like the reason people are comparing aegislash's effect on the metagame to its effect on the XY metagame is because he does the exact same damn thing that he did in the XY metagame. He bends the metagame around himself. When you build a team in the aegis meta in ORAS or built a team back in XY with aegislash, the first thing, the very first thing you had to answer was, "does this team have a reliable way around aegislash/does this team give aegislash too many free turns." There wasn't any new godly checks released in ORAS, in fact most of the ORAS megas are either stopped dead, or checked really hard by aegislash. I believe what the people are trying to say is that nothing has changed to give aegislash a disadvantage in the ORAS meta except lopunny, so why unban it if its just going to be like the XY meta all over again, with a few viable megas, and very few checks to aegislash.

 

[Sochlo]

You're advocating a "constantly developing" metagame and you're trying to bring Aegislash down, fucking rich. No other Pokemon impedes progress in a metagame the way Aegislash does, the metagame you're seeing in the suspect test is what you're ever gonna see if Aegis were to be unbanned, even if Lando gets the boot after. ORAS has only made Aegislash better, so your "this isn't XY" argument is worthless because Aegislash is arguably more cancerous than when it was banned.

We'll fix OU by banning Lando, Altaria, and Metagross if need be, this sack of AIDS isn't the answer.

tl dr shoulda banned metagross 57% rofl

 

[AM]

We're not discussing adding voters or tiering policy. Stick to the subject at hand as in the actual suspect.

 

[Scr3d]

Exactly. Well put. There are two kinds of Metagame someone mentioned earlier:
A) A metagame constantly changing and the rise and fall of many pokemon to check the "rage's" new threat and and truly not being in a stale Metagame. This should be the priority of them to keep making sure that pokemon that actually make the Metagame enjoyable aren't all banned.
B)The metagame where anything that is a threat to making it stay stable and stale is banned right away and the enternal loop of being in a stake Metagame. This is what you guys want.

There are actually some people who would love to be able to try new pokemon and bring up a pokemon from the depths of RU or even NU and it'll have usage and then you need checks for that and it's how the metagame truly changes and adapts while being all the more enjoyable as you notice your old teams just aren't cutting it anymore.

What I believe is that we should add more people to the voting consensus. I'd like to view a list of the people who get to vote and I'd see something I've noticed in all suspect tests. The majority of voters are actually veterans and it's sad to say most veterans DO NOT like change at all in a metagame that's favorable, but this Metagame isn't stable. I'm sad to say that if my ideas are true and the list of voters are always the same, which is most likely since you need 2700 coil correct? It'll mostly be the same people from other suspect tests.

I vote that we include more voters. It's simple as that or we just retest everything in the ORAS Meta and see how it is then and we'll see if Aegislash may fit in.

Don't try and accuse me of anything that you've spotted in my posts if you don't know about me at first.
.

AM edit: removed stuff about tiering policy.

Anyways, I'll address the rest of your post. Aegislash does not help make pokemon in lower tiers more viable. Quite the opposite in fact. If it stays in OU it will be a centralizing force that will check MASSIVE portions of lower tiers. Looking at the RU viability rankings, for instance, Aegislash outclasses or checks/counters well over half of the S and A ranks. Reunicles, Aboma, Cobalion, Cress, outclasses Doublade, Durant(?), and the list goes on. And how many of the mons it doesn't outright counter are able to consistently switch into shadow balls? Almost none.

You claim to want a meta which isn't stale or stable--Aegislash doesn't help in accomplishing this. It won't be a "rage"; it will be a consistently beyond excellent mon that will centralize teambuilding and restrict creativity.

 

[HUARGH]

My only real beef with Aegislash is that you can't predict the set he's running whereas both sets require vastly different counters (kind of like the argument that was mainly used against mega-lucario in its suspect testing). Physical, Special or Weakness Policy are both a bitch to deal with, King's Shield is obnoxious as fuck to deal with and can fuck over a potential counter, it has excellent typing and it has priority...

 

[LuKe_AA]

The post #268 suggested (tho vastly already addressed as the non actual problem, which just about has me wondering where the "knowledge" of the Super 5 - tho that was only one of them - calling these suspects differs from, say, for example, my knowledge) to possibly have King Shield only removed. If that is not even the issue, why asking for it?

Anyway, as for the last posts: about team building specifically for "checking" Aegislash (cause apparently it lacks any counter (?)) what was employed "back" in X-Y and what has been employed the most these last two weeks? Any data in this regard?