np: NU Stage 10 - Blackbird

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Pen Ink said:
so i know there's already a thread for serperior, but i feel like more people will see it here. lately i've been running anti-lead serperior.

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Serperior @ Leftovers
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Spd / 184 HP / 72 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Glare
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Giga Drain

this thing is great. golem, golurk, and seismitoad are all scared shitless by it. this causes a ton of t1 switches, which is the perfect opportunity just to glare or knock off. in reality, golem has sturdy and golurk isn't even always 2hko'd by giga drain, but most people don't really take that into consideration because they know a taunt is incoming. 184 hp ev's is a leftovers numbers. i'd run a higher leftovers number with more hp but i added in about 30 SAtk ev's to help the golurk 2hko. the rest of the special attack is what's left over after hitting the leftovers number. i've been running 252 spd ev's just because, but i might bump it down to outrun base 105's. i've been thinking of running meadow plate, which guarantee's the 2hko on golurk, alomomola, 0.39% on wartortle, etc. i also might run hp rock for charizard and other rock types. hp ice is also a decent option.

i'd really recommend trying this set out. a t2 glare on charizard, jynx, scolipede, etc, can really turn momentum extremely in your favor, besides the fact that all those mons are now crippled.
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Serperior @ Rock Gem
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 64 HP / 192 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Glare
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Taunt
- Giga Drain

This is an alternate set I've been trying too. It beats Charizard, which is super nice. Unfortunately the thing about Serperior is it has mediocre SAtk. Seriously, it can't OHKO Charizard with 252 SAtk EV's and a Timid nature with HP Rock. So, Rock Gem. 192 SAtk EV's ensure a 2hko on Golurk. Rest was dumped into HP for bulk. You could also run 252 SAtk with Stone Plate. That OHKO's Charizard, along with 2hko'ing Jynx and Scolipede. Also has like a 20% chance to OHKO Scolipede after SR.

It sucks that Serperior's SAtk sucks so bad. :( im sad now.

miltank is such a mixed bag. it has great qualities but i feel it like it suffers intense 4mss and there are pokemon that do what it does better. (sr=metang, para=musharna, etc)
 
Ashley11 said:
What do you guys think of offensive miltank? it is just over the golden benchmark 95 speed and has a powerful attack stat and has the abilities scrappy and sap sipper. it just seems good to me and i want to know what you think about it.
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I think the poke that gives SS Miltanks the most competition is Tauros, who is stronger and faster. Sheer Force is also activated willingly, whereas Sap Sipper requires prediction, so most of the time Miltank won't be hitting too hard. Miltank's bulk is where she really shines, with Milk Drink, Heal Bell and high speed for a wall are very appealing. Sap Sipper also competes with Thick Fat, which can tank hits from Charizard and Jynx, or Scrappy, to ensure Body Slam can paralyze anything. There's no denying that Sap Sipper is super annoying though, but then again so are its other abilities.

I'm pretty sure 252 SAtk EVs + LO Serperior's Hidden Power Rock can OHKO Zard.
 
One thing I've been noticing about this stage is that every good team needs to have an answer to Jynx; it's not a Pokemon that can be countered by any generic special wall. Pretty much all of my teams have used either Metang or Electabuzz to deal with it. Metang can switch in on anything bar trick and deal heavy damage with Bullet Punch (Always a OHKO after SR!) or trap it with Pursuit. Electabuzz, on the other hand, makes it very risky for Jynx to fling Lovely Kiss around left and right, especially if it's scarfed. The main reason I use these two is because other Pokemon that can deal with Jynx tend to be awfully limited in their use otherwise (e.g. Grumping, Hypno, Bronzor), and they tend to lose a ton of momentum. What has everyone else been using for it?
 
Lum Samurott can be fantastic with Megahorn. It even works on a special set with zero investment, or hell, a modest nature. Gurdurr's Mach Punch can easily pick off a weakened one. Metang is fantastic (holy shit, those three words together?) with Meteor Mash, and can also pick off Jynx with Bullet Punch. Scarfstrika can't switch in, but is fast enough to OHKO with Overheat. Scarfzard can beat it with any given fire move. Basically just priority, fast things, or Samurott. I personally haven't found too much trouble dealing with it, but it (a Jynx check) is definitely something that my teams have to have in order to be effective.

The best one I've found so far is E-Belt Ninjask, which is actually what I designed that set for. Protect for a speed boost, X-Scissor. Whapow! :eek:
 
A better check to Jynx would be Sneasel, with dual resists and STAB Pursuit. It doesn't hit too hard though.
 
Magmar is the best check to Jynx: it doesn't take anything from Lovely Kisses and all and can OHKO with Fire Blast.
Non-scarfed Jynxes can be dealt with by Scarf Primeape who OHKOes Jynx with U-Turn: even if it switches out, U-Turn guarantees momentum.
 
On the topic of Magmar, I think Agent Dell summed it up really well. It's just really awkward. It doesn't have the sheer bulk to take hits especially with a rock weakness and its offensive stats are a bit lacking. It's a decent mon for sure, but it just kind of struggles to define a specific niche for itself.

Charizard is honestly ridiculously cool and it has 4 sets that I consider really solid in its power herb lure set, SD acro, choice, and LO. Its crazy diversity and (puns aside) blazing speed can let it rip through teams. Combusken is also really cool but I think it is definitely best reserved for late-game where it can utilize its ability to the maximum extent and pick off the weakened team. It should really only stick to its special movepool because it needs all the power it can get and LO Flare Blitz is essentially suicide and fire punch is pitiful.

Probopass is a mon that I have been using pretty extensively this meta and I really love the traits it brings to the table. I've been using a mixed defense set that ebeast introduced to me with SR/Flash Cannon/Volt Switch/Toxic. It can very reliably set up rocks due to its ability in Sturdy, however I tend to save it for a time where it can set up rocks safely. It is such a useful defensive pivot with its resistances and takes neutral hits really well. Toxic is amazing for hitting things like Alomomola and Musharna and then just Volt Switching out. Flash Cannon is sort of a compromise between Earth Power and Power Gem and helps against the ladder's Armaldo fetish. Probo makes a really great teammate for any team that struggles gaining momentum, has a guts abuser like Swellow, needs a Flying/Normal check, or just appreciates a reliable Rocks setter.
 
Probopass is a pretty cool mon because its typing does help it check a lot of things and it is also a great pivot with Volt Switch as well. Instead of Flash Cannon, I usually use Power Gem which allows it to break Braviary's subs and then Toxic on the Roost but Flash Cannon is helpful for catching stuff like Golurk and Golem better.
 
flash cannon isn't really that useful on defensive probopass since it should be using toxic on the targets that it needs to hit. it doesn't do nearly enough to anything that it doesn't hit super effectively and power gem is useful as annoyer said. it's good on sets with max special attack and speed investment though since it can surprise the likes of golem and piloswine.
 
Annoyer said:
Probopass is a pretty cool mon because its typing does help it check a lot of things and it is also a great pivot with Volt Switch as well. Instead of Flash Cannon, I usually use Power Gem which allows it to break Braviary's subs and then Toxic on the Roost but Flash Cannon is helpful for catching stuff like Golurk and Golem better.
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I am going to agree with annoyer that Probopass is a good mon in the current meta. I used a Probopass with magnet pull on a team centered around Swellow in order to trap and remove steel types. It didn't always beat them, but it usually could at least heavily damage them with earth power/hidden power fire so they were no longer useful as a Swellow check.

Axaj said:
One thing I've been noticing about this stage is that every good team needs to have an answer to Jynx
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Also going to agree that Metang is an excellent Jynx counter, on a team that already has stealth rocks, a set with sleep talk/bullet punch/meteor mash/earthquake allows it to beat pretty much any version of Jynx.
 
yeah metang is great, i hate that it can't take a lovely kiss though.

the thing i hate about jynx is it's very unpredictable and you really have to make the right decision against it. i could switch in sneasel but it could just as easily lovely kiss me and then my jynx check is gone, same with metang. most players i've noticed generally always go for lovely kiss first unless they definitely have a KO, and then they could easily predict the switch and still lovely kiss. it's why i like to run sleep talk on muk just in case.
 
Or just run RestTalk Metang (Rest + Sleep Talk + Meteor Mash + Hone Claws), which can come in on Jynx as often as it wants to.
 
Power Gem is definitely useful on Probopass and should always be considered as the STAB move of choice but there have definitely been times where I appreciate the extra chip damage on grounds and that 10% special defense drop that forces some switches, racking up more hazard damage.

RestTalk Metang is kind of a waste of its potential. You end up running a monoattacking set or you end up giving up Metang's ability to set rocks reliably. It does completely shut down Jynx, but it just loses its overall viability. The standard set still provides a great check to Jynx however.
 
does anyone else use cb eelektross in this meta? he is an excellent momentum grabber with his slow, bulky u-turn. he's actually the only good slow u-turn pokemon in the tier, although i guess you could count mandibuzz slow enough. he also does quite a bit of damage with stab wild charge and his two good coverage moves in superpower and aqua tail, but honestly u-turn is 70% of the reason you use cb eelektross. cb eelektross is excellent in tandem with mons like specs exeggutor, swellow, zangoose, and jynx because they are frail (besides eggy, who likes cb eel to take advantage of mons trying to set sr up) and do a lot of damage when they are out. specs eelektross's volt switch does quite a bit of damage, but it's not nearly as useful as cb u-turn because of all of the ground-type sr setters around such as seismitoad and piloswine.

i'm honestly not a fan of eelektross in general. his lack of resistances/immunities and average base stats makes him a bit weird. however, i really like cb eelektross just because u-turn is such an amazing move.

also that lead serp set seems pretty sick. i'll have to try it some time.
 
serp is great, just gotta use it on the right team or it becomes dead weight. it's a fantastic charizard lure though and just shits on most leads.

i've never really used cb eelektross that much. i've always enjoyed the special set more, just because it's a fantastic wallbreaker and you don't really need speed to break walls. it also gets access to giga drain, which is insanely useful, as it's really easy to switch eelektross into braviary and then proceed to giga drain on the switch. the wallbreaker set is also wonderful at cleaning up slower, weakened teams while i feel like cb eelektross needs a dedicated voltturn core to really do some work. normally the special set just gets the job done for eelektross, and i feel like it's better at being a bulky wallbreaker then a strong cb u-turner due to its awkward typing and the fact that it doesn't really force too many switches.

has anyone tried out a vileplume, musharna, lickilicky core? i got wrecked by this thing twice on the ladder just because lickilicky's protect eliminates all chances at predicting switches into vileplume. the guy used cm musharna along with it and my sawk was completely wrecked. vileplume isn't even 2hko'd by sawk's cc before stealth rocks and musharna tanks it like a boss. i could see bulky set up sweepers like coil eelektross and bulk up braviary but vileplume has sleep powder and lickilicky has whirlwind.
 
CB eelektross is a mon I've seen talked about a lot recently, and one I've been looking to put onto one of my teams in the near future. The recent mandibuzz drop has just given it another target to pray on. Like dtc said, the slow, powerful u-turn is amazing right now, and you can take the hit with eelektross, then send out a status sweeper like swellow, zangoose or even ursaring. This activates their orb on that turn so they can start their destruction right off the bat. I personally used swellow when I made a voltturn team with standard eelektross. It adds to the voltturn core with its u-turn, which the other 2 lack. I also used scarf zebstrika and encore expert belt primeape on that team, and it brought me great success. Hazards are very useful on voltturn, obviously, as you are going to be forcing a lot of switches, so racking up that damage is very useful, and can enable one of your late game sweepers, such as the aforementioned swellow, to come in and wreck house once everything's at lowered hp. What experiences have you guys had with voltturn recently?
 
wiitle said:
Power Gem is definitely useful on Probopass and should always be considered as the STAB move of choice but there have definitely been times where I appreciate the extra chip damage on grounds and that 10% special defense drop that forces some switches, racking up more hazard damage.

RestTalk Metang is kind of a waste of its potential. You end up running a monoattacking set or you end up giving up Metang's ability to set rocks reliably. It does completely shut down Jynx, but it just loses its overall viability. The standard set still provides a great check to Jynx however.
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I dont think that Resttalker Metang is a waste of potential, helps against the same stuff and better against mons such Jynx, Musharna, walls.
The problem that i saw with standard Metang is that is just useful because Stealth Rock and then you dont need thought too, you just have a steel type, SR mon and a good check for Jynx (which is mediocre if is your only anwer since 1. focus blast hitts harder 2. LK criple him for the rest of the battle probably 3. lack to recovery). Resttalker Metang is good in more defensive teams which are weak to some mons and needs a more solid anwers for this, just not only decent checks and playing around them.
 
The reason I feel it is generally inferior to its other set is because RestTalk takes away Metang's very valuable moveslots.

By running RestTalk, you need to run meteor mash unless you want to be complete taunt bait. From there, I'd say your last moveslot options are Toxic or Stealth Rock. Without Toxic, you can't hope to ever break past anything bulky and gives tons of things free switchins. Without Stealth Rock, you need to find another teamslot to put a mon with Stealth Rock on. It limits what Metang can do in exchange for some unreliable recovery. Don't get me wrong, Metang's bulk allows it to take hits from a lot of things, but it isn't going to be doing too much in return.
 
I just in general love Eelektross. I've said it so many times before, and I'm fairly sure that the only person who loves Eelektross more than I do is dy8. lol

CB Eelektross is actually arguably better than Specs Eelektross, in that you are guaranteed momentum against slower Pokemon. Volt Switch often leads to mind games with the opponent. Are they going to bring in a Ground-type and stop me from gaining momentum, or are they going to stay in or switch to something else in fear of a Giga Drain? Of course, if grabbing momentum is less important for your team (though I really can't think of any examples of this), Specs probably will work better for you since it has way better coverage options.

I also LOVE mixed Eelektross. It's by far the best option for teams that are looking for something to patch up a lot of defensive weaknesses. What I mean by this is mainly that if you want to run frail sweepers, such as Swellow or Scarf Charizard, that really have trouble breaking down bulky walls, you can run mixed Eelektross to get past them. The set that is in the Eelektross analysis I'm working on is the following:

Eebeltross (Eelektross) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 140 Atk / 244 SAtk / 124 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Superpower
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain

Basically the only things that wall this are Dragon-types, and even Zweilous doesn't want to take a Superpower. I know I've hyped it so much, especially on IRC, but seriously, if you haven't used this set, try it. Against more offensive teams, it won't really carry its weight as much. Its main role is just to destroy any Pokemon that is remotely defensive. Seriously, almost every specially defensive Pokemon in NU (Regice, Lickilicky, Audino, Zweilous, etc) is weak to Fighting, and almost every other one is weak to something else on this set (Mantine, Articuno, Seismitoad, Metang, etc). It pulls its weight so much against balanced and defensive teams.

Another thing that's been working really well for me has been Expert Belt Seismitoad. As a lead, it beats almost every other Stealth Rock user, and it can often be catered to beating the ones it otherwise doesn't—running Grass Knot for opposing Seismitoad, for example. Meanwhile, it gets up Stealth Rock for you as well. I just run Modest 252 SpA / 252 Spe, but I'm sure you could run a little bit of HP. I just don't really find it necessary at that point. On top of this, the ones it can't usually OHKO are Pokemon that have a terrible lead matchup against it. Golem, for instance, can obviously survive an Earth Power or a Hydro Pump thanks to Sturdy. But at that point you opponent has to decide if they want to switch out, get up Stealth Rock, or hit you with Earthquake. Basically, they choose: do I want Stealth Rock later, do I not want to lose Golem, or do I not want Stealth Rock up? Honestly, I prefer Seismitoad to other "anti-leads" like CB Sawk and Taunt Samurott because it hits hard and has the utility of Stealth Rock all in one. Not to say that Taunt Samurott and CB Sawk aren't fantastic Pokemon, because they absolutely are. But I just love how Seismitoad can take hits, dish them out, set up Stealth Rock, counter Carracosta, etc. all in one cute, lumpy package!
 
Eel is cool in that few things won't hesitate to switch in to its massive coverage. The problem is that if the threat does come in safely, Eel would almost always have to take a beating before responding in kind, due to its poor speed. Lack of weaknesses do help, but not as much as having more resistances, as Eel only resists Electric, Flying and Steel :/ so it finds itself 2HKOed by many powerful attacks before it KOes much. Choice Eels make for good momentum grabbers though, whereas Mixed Eel can lure and wallbreak effectively.

Toad is very awesome. A huge plethora of useful resists in Fire, Electric, Rock, and Water as well as other resists like Poison and Steel, Seismitoad often finds itself partnered up with a good deal of pokemon, and can hold its own in either sweeping and supporting thanks to its well balanced stats and decent movepool (save no Ice Beam, but hey, Sludge Wave for Ludicolo). Seismitoad is so useful utility-wise that adding one to your team is very likely to improve it. Heck, it can still do work even under the Sun!

Edit: Oh right, completely forgot about Sludge Bomb for a second there. Nice catch.
 
Yeah, I posted on it a bit earlier, and that's basically why I said that Eelektross plays best against defensive or more balanced teams. Frankly, its bulk is not going to let it take too many neutral hits from Pokemon with any sort of offensive investment. It's a real bummer too, because the lack of Speed isn't even really made up for with bulk. The fact that it is really match-up reliant makes a lot of people not want to use it. But in spite of this, it works so well against defensive teams that it is still definitely worthy of a team slot. The fact that mixed Eelektross in particular can 2HKO almost every Pokemon in NU is definitely not something that should be ignored when considering it for a team, but on that same note, if you /are/ going to use it, you'd ought to plan your team out carefully when you're building around it so that you don't throw it on an offensive team and expect it to switch into a lot of hits. I made the mistake of building a really frail offensive team with only Golurk and Eelektross being able to take a hit, and this would have worked fine had I have used a more pivot-y based offensive team. But since I had only one U-turn/Volt Switch user on the entire team, if I mispredicted even once, I could completely lose all of my momentum and subsequently the entire match.

Also, in regards to Seismitoad: I see pretty much no reason to use Sludge Wave in lieu of Sludge Bomb. Sludge Bomb has 90 Base Power along with a 30% chance of poisoning the target, whereas Sludge Wave has 5 more Base Power in exchange for only a 10% chance of poisoning the foe. To me, it's a no-brainer which one you should use, but a lot of people are still using Sludge Wave for some reason.
 
Yeah my favorite set for seismetoad is modest (because timid ludicolo isnt that common, though i will run timid if i am very ludicolo weak) 252 SpA/252 speed with stealth rock/hydro pump/earthpower (or earthquake for jynx)/sludge bomb (which 2hko's offensive ludicolo that will almost always switch in with seismetoad on the field. Threatens just about all standard sr leads (minus cradily if that's standard) while having surprising speed and catches so many people offguard with sludge bomb (which is better than sludge wave)
 
Offensive Seismitoad is definitely a lot more threatening as a hazard setter than bulkier spreads, so whenever I use it, I tend to go fully offensive. However, on my latest team I used a specially defensive spread with Scald/Earthquake/Toxic/Protect in tandem with Metang to deal with Charizard and Volt Switch spam. It makes a pretty solid switchin to a lot of threats, but it tends to lose a fair bit of momentum. Do you guys think Seismitoad "worth it" without Stealth Rock? If so, is it better offensively or defensively?

Also, on the subject of Cradily, I haven't used it on a real team yet, but it looks like it has a good matchup against almost every other Stealth Rock lead, and it has the rarely seen combination of great bulk and reliable recovery. Has anyone been able to use it effectively?
 
wiitle said:
RestTalk Metang is kind of a waste of its potential. You end up running a monoattacking set or you end up giving up Metang's ability to set rocks reliably. It does completely shut down Jynx, but it just loses its overall viability. The standard set still provides a great check to Jynx however.
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Until you realize there are many things Metang can set up on. RestTalk Metang shuts down not only Jynx; it shuts down half the tier especially with hazard support, including plenty of dangerous Pokémon like Swellow, Braviary and Musharna.
 
I actually used crazily on my very first NU team, and that thing did so much work it was ridiculous. I'm not sure how it would be in the current meta, as this was back in the days of absol, cinccino, emboar and amoonguss. I used stockpiles, recover, toxic and seed bomb, which worked very well. I've also seen and used a decently effective offensive one with Swords Dance and dual stabs. I don't have time to say much rn so that's all I'm going to say.
 
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