np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[BKC]

Additionally, I don't see why you're assuming Stealth Rock will be up against a STEALTH ROCK WEAK POKEMON that is likely paired with A SPINNER.

How could I forget that spinners were the end-all method of getting rid of SR at any stage in the game?

also don't see how Gyarados isn't a counter, as it can 1) take a hit 2) take another hit AND set up and 3) OHKO Landorus.

Gyarados is a counter. However, it is not that good of a mon to use in the metagame because of its SR weakness and lack of reliable recovery. Yes, I have used it, before you try to have a shot at that. It did absolute shit much less than it actually did anything useful.

Stealth Rock isn't doing anything even if it is up.

I guess ripping off 25% of Gyara's health just for switching in before getting U-turned on and forced out again is the equivalent of not doing anything.

Cresselia is often on teams that can trap and kill Tyranitar with Dugtrio and ones that have some form of hazard control. It tends to win.

Landorus U-turns out of Cresselia, Tyranitar kills it. I couldn't care less what happens to Tyranitar afterwards because Cress is gone [or is so low on health that it certainly isn't going to be walling Landorus anymore].

[in regards to a U-turn calc] That's not boned because you can Roost up.

Not before you get trapped, no...

Fun fact: the people who rave about Landorus "needing perfect prediction" seem to be ignoring the facts that 1) prediction goes both ways and 2) if it doesn't feel like predicting, it can literally just click U-turn and have the advantage no matter what.

Also, U-turn + Rock Polish Landorus has been used to great effect by a few good players.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

My personal grievance lies with the giant lists of calculations being used as proof that Landorus can beat all of its checks. That kind of evidence is extremely impractical. Many of those defensive checks take very little, or are actually immune, to two of Landorus' three attacking moves on a set. Rotom-W takes nothing from HP Ice or Earth Power. Gengar takes nothing from Earth Power or Focus Blast. Jellicent takes nothing from HP Ice or Focus Blast.

And yet, all of these pokemon are "2HKO'd." Are they really? Maybe if you pick the correct move every time, which is quite a feat when you're using attacks that have so many resists and immunities (and 70% accuracy). You're going to end up with some failed attacks. You're going to lose momentum sometimes. You're going to lose a Pokemon sometimes because you wanted to make a big boy prediction to kill a check. Landorus doesn't live in a magical land where one button 2HKOs the entire metagame.

shrang is exactly correct. Pro-ban users often assume perfect prediction, especially when claiming calcs for coverage moves prove Landorus is uncounterable. Actually playing the game doesn't work out so cleanly. Landorus won't 2HKO everything just because it can in theory. The checks can work fine if you play smart. More creative options are still waiting to be found.

Wait a sec, so you plan on beating Landorus-I with guess work and if you guess wrong you lose? Doesn't seem very fair to me, sounds like a broken threat. I believe we should assume perfect prediction, because we have to assume the worst barring luck when facing Landorus-I to truly see how devastating Landorus-I can potential be. Also, you're acting as if Landorus-I has a hard time predicting a Pokemon to come in. Like I've said many times (along with BKC) is that prediction goes both ways. Landorus-I can just spam Earth Power most of the time anyway.

Relying on an opponent to mis-predict or miss a 70% accuracy move is not a way to deal with a Pokemon, and the fact that people are using this reasoning just shows how dangerous it can be.

 

[Corumba]

It has been stated several times before in this thread, but I'll say it again.

The honus is on the other user to predict correctly against the Landorus user every time. If the Landorus user predicts correctly against the opposition just once in a game (more then feasible), then that "counter" is gone because lets face it, they all get 2hkoed.

If the Landorus user predicts incorrectly they lose nothing due to sheer force preventing life orb recoil. In fact they gain a little bit of damage on one of Landorus' shaky checks allowing for an easier kill at a later stage, not to mention losing momentum from a probable impending u-turn should Lando be faster than what was brought in.

In my experiences, every time Landorus comes in freely, you're leaving it up to chance as to whether something on your team dies or not, and there is no other pokemon in the game that causes this much pressure.

 

[ginganinja]

Even then, U-turn Lando isn't even THAT good at killing stall anyway. I know it works very well, but how much better does it do than you average joe stallbreaker anyway? It only has 331 Speed, slow as Stall is, you should have either at least 1) a Pokemon that outspeeds that (generally Latias), or 2) something that doesn't get killed by it very easily (eg Blissey, Jellicent, etc etc), or a combination of them. Hell, I just realised that ScarfTar (relatively useful on stall teams) can revenge kill U-turn Landorus. Just stick Ice Beam on it or something. It's not like anyone's going to see it coming. Lando can merrily think it's going on its way and boom it's dead to Ice Beam. You could say that RP Lando beats that, but that can't get past Latias, and Latias + ScarfTar isn't a bad gluing core in itself. You can say "well now you require 2 Pokemon to beat Landorus-I", but I'll just remind you all that you're using Tyranitar + Landorus to beat Latias, so I'm going to say that it's perfectly fair.

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Scarf Tar with Ice Beam is actually fairly standard as I understand it. Dice and BKC can correct me if I am wrong I think as both of them are prolly more experienced with the Tourney scene than I am but I encountered that set a bit on the ladder so its sorta lost its surprise value. In addition, if you're relying heavily on Tyranitar as your Landorus-I check on your stall team, then something is very wrong. ​

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With that said, its apparently clear that Pocket has had some success on the suspect ladder with his stall team. Good on him I guess, but this doesn't mean that stall handles Landorus-I. I laddered with CB Ferrothorn during the suspect test, and destroyed with it, but this doesn't mean that CB Ferrothorn is a good pokemon. Obviously, players such as yee and BKC (and others) feel that Landorus-I is a problem for stall. I confess, I agree with them based on the importables of a couple of stall teams that have been floating around where I can look at them and say "yep, that struggles with Landorus-I". I don't have access to Pockets team (and don't expect him to post it either, its his team) so its hard for me to make statements in favour of stall vs Landorus-I because I haven't had that experience. This doesn't make Pocket and Co wrong, and it doesn't make me wrong either, it means that (obviously) people have different experiences on the suspect ladder, with Landorus-I vs stall.​

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So can we not make "100%" statements anymore (on either side) unless your posting some pretty serious evidence in which case I don't really care. ​

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I'd also like to say that Cress + Dugtrio + Starmie/Latias/Latios on a sun team is pretty much a guaranteed way to beat the almighty core of Ttar + Keldeo + Lando-I.

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You are 100% correct. Id also add that you have a 4 man core (compared to the 3 man core) of Ninetales / Cress / Dugtrio / Latias (since id argue Tar could traps and kills cress, duggy traps back, and Landorus-I Rock Polishes ftw and Latias stops that better than Starmie) with 2 slots left to cover everything else in the meta. Plus you prolly want Venusaur on the sun team and I bet a spinner or something otherwise SR rapes your Ninetales making it harder to win the weather war. In other words, id argue that you have over centralised your team around beating Landorus-I, leaving yourself open to like, CM Latias, Volcarona or Gengar something. Besides, no-one said the core is unbeatable (shit, I ran Reflect CM Latias to laugh at Tyranitar trying to trap me), just that its exceptionally strong / good and cheap, as well as being a mind numbing strategy that (I at least) am tired of seeing on the ladder. Yes its beatable, but it constrains your teambuilding to a large extent, (your example proves my point very well I think) making the meta unhealthy. ​

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Interesting thing to note about the "U-turn Lando vs stall team" argument is how people are throwing around that U-turn is completely a risk-free move. It really isn't. Yes, you could U-turn on the Forretress instead of Earth Powering it, but you just lost 22.5% of your health (if we count SR), and most likely just gave the Forretress a free spin, or a free layer of Spikes, or whatever. Yes, I know you could just straight up kill it, but please don't make it look like U-turn is risk-free.

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But in general, it is risk free. I am well aware of the "prediction" argument, but you yourself are ignoring the risk vs reward argument (something people tend to forget). For example, are you REALLY going to sacrifice that Forry to an obvious Earth Power just in case it U-Turns, like it seems a pretty risky move to make. Sure, you can make it and sure, it might pay off, I am not arguing otherwise. However in terms of Risk vs Reward, if you stay in, you made the "bad" move so to speak, in that you just risked a free KO in exchange for, what, 10% of Landorus-I's health + a layer of Spikes? (assuming I don't have a spinner to nullify that gain and no, do not post after this claiming my core now includes a spinner ffs) Like, I will be the first person to put my hand up and claim im not the worlds most amazing battler, but in general, that looks seriously like a bad trade to me. Personally, the reason why I subscribe to the arguement that Landorus-I frustrates stall so hard, is because unlike offense, it can legit just park itself on the field and spam powerful moves. Sure, its not going to 6-0 your team, but im just saying when you have mons such as standard Hippowdon (I am not including Ice Fang since thats rare af in my experience and costs a key moveslot (plus I can predict it if you have a common SRer as well) are going to give it free switches to fire off an Earth Power, or something and just tear off chunks. It might not 6-0 you but its going to be frustrating, spamming those moves over and over...and I forgot where I was going with this but it always looks annoying when I run defensive teams.​

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Couple of more things I want to highlight from other posters:​

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252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 169-200 (43 - 50.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

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252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 175-207 (43.31 - 51.23%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​

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So with Leftovers recovery these are 3HKOs. Additionally, you're assuming Landorus went straight for the EP. Also, Slowking is a solid Pokemon. No need to bash it.​

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Ok, assuming SS recovery, those are no longer 3KOs. I see no reason at all to claim forcing Landorus-I to use EP is uncommon or a "risky" move. EP is very often its general go to move as well as FB, since both of these moves avoid LO recoil, and in the case of EP, its its STAB move so yea, I wouldn't consider Jellicent a good check, specially since that one is Specially Defensive which I really don't like as much now. Personally, i would give you Slowking because it has regeneration, so you can switch in, scout, switch back out, although technically your not really winning I guess unless you have a Latias as well. You are still vulnerable to Tar + Landorus-I tho imo, but from experience its not impossible to play around.​

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0- Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 156-185 (48.9 - 57.99%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

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So much for "boned by U-turn". ​

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Come on man, your a good guy but that statement is poorly worded. U-Turn doesn't 2KO, but you cannot switch in (U-Turn into Tar beats you) and U-Turn forces you to recover that damage off, risking that Tyranitar switch on the heal, trapping you. Like, I use a Latias myself to check Landorus-I, and yea, I can beat it (or survive long enough against it to win) but even I can admit to myself that against a really skilled player, every single time I recover, is a 50/50 call on Tyrantiar switching in. Often sometimes im forced to take a super effective hit, and switch straight back out (knowing that if I don't recover at some stage im in serious shit) or just accept that im going to get trapped if they being in Tar, and take the gamble, knowing ill have to play a little riskier to discourage Landorus-I later. You flat out cannot deny its usually a risk using Latias to counter Landorus-I + Tar because christ I know from experience how vulnerable you feel. ​

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Stealth Rock isn't doing anything even if it is up.

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Christ man you know thats worded really badly (and im being kind here). Losing 25% health + damage from U-Turn + that switch to a counter forcing you out again, is huge and you know it. Despite this I will consider Gyarados a really good / solid check (despite always running into Psychic Landorus (yes that easily predict my switch x_x)) because it just is. Gengar is also a good check although Scarf Tar cockblocks it really bad (which discourages me from relying on it) and Mandibuzz I will always consider a mediocre pokemon at best (because sadly it really is).​

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That's not boned because you can Roost up. If you're running any more bulk like SubCM it doesn't even always do over half accounting for Stealth Rock damage. Also you can't exactly 2HKO with U-turn...

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As stated above, from experience every Roost (Yes I run Sub CM Latias as well occasionally) feels like a coinflip (Shit, it doesn't have to be a Tyranitar, Scizor switch is always a decent possibility if I have revealed Substitute thus informing my opponent im prolly SubCM) because that Tyranitar can oh so easily predict that roost (and hey, if it guesses 'wrong' then you very likely switched out anyway instead of recovering pushing you into that 2KO) and from experience, I feel so vulnerable :( ​

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This post is way 2 long (so 90% chance of typos) so sorry about that tbh, just needed to respond to a few things.​

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tl;dr​

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Don't use statements such as "Landorus-I ALWAYS beats stall" or Landorus-I ALWAYS loses to stall" because its obvious (since various people have posted contrary to the above) that it doesn't quite fly atm, (even if I still disagree with one of the above statements). You can post evidence to the above tho, or argue against points and shit, just don't....be so emphatic or something as idk, it might not be so cut and dry. ​

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Fuck im tired.​

EDIT

Cut down on statements like this "Wait a sec, so you plan on beating Landorus-I with guess work and if you guess wrong you lose?" (Yes I picked a pro ban post to show im not just picking on anyone in particular) as they just inflame and shit. TRY to be civil / diplomatic / nice / phrase things better or something pls, even tho its really fucking hard sometimes cos it makes my job 100% easier.

 

[shrang]

With that said, its apparently clear that Pocket has had some success on the suspect ladder with his stall team. Good on him I guess, but this doesn't mean that stall handles Landorus-I. I laddered with CB Ferrothorn during the suspect test, and destroyed with it, but this doesn't mean that CB Ferrothorn is a good pokemon. Obviously, players such as yee and BKC (and others) feel that Landorus-I is a problem for stall. I confess, I agree with them based on the importables of a couple of stall teams that have been floating around where I can look at them and say "yep, that struggles with Landorus-I". I don't have access to Pockets team (and don't expect him to post it either, its his team) so its hard for me to make statements in favour of stall vs Landorus-I because I haven't had that experience. This doesn't make Pocket and Co wrong, and it doesn't make me wrong either, it means that (obviously) people have different experiences on the suspect ladder, with Landorus-I vs stall.

So we can agree while Landorus does pressure stall (as does so many other Pokemon in the metagame presently), that it is still not as bad as a lot of people are making it out to be? It is still quite possible to make a stall team and quite frankly, I feel there are Pokemon that are worse against stall than Landorus. I guess you could say that ladder is in general, at a lower skill level than tournaments, but just because you have trouble using stall doesn't mean that it's impossible, it's just a bit harder. It was kind of like the old weatherless vs weather arguments way back when. Yes, it's harder making a weatherless team, but still very possible and a well built team in the hands of good player will do well regardless of whether the opponent has a Landorus or not.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

So we can agree while Landorus does pressure stall (as does so many other Pokemon in the metagame presently), that it is still not as bad as a lot of people are making it out to be? It is still quite possible to make a stall team and quite frankly, I feel there are Pokemon that are worse against stall than Landorus. I guess you could say that ladder is in general, at a lower skill level than tournaments, but just because you have trouble using stall doesn't mean that it's impossible, it's just a bit harder. It was kind of like the old weatherless vs weather arguments way back when. Yes, it's harder making a weatherless team, but still very possible and a well built team in the hands of good player will do well regardless of whether the opponent has a Landorus or not.

While I feel that there are bigger threats to stall, this suspect test is for Landorus-I and Landorus-I only. Sure Kyurem-B might cause stall more problems than say Landorus-I, but Kyurem-B isn't being suspected, and we shouldn't keep Landorus-I in the tier just because something else is considered more broken (I know you didn't say anything was more broken, but I'm just making this clear for other readers). If Landorus-I is broken in the current metagame, then we ban it. And the fact that it has the potential to 2HKO basically everything in it's way, along with luring in it's counters and reliably eliminating them (all in one set!) makes it broken imo.

 

[Conflict]

I just cant comprehend how Lando-I is a bigger threat to stall then say Breloom. Breloom forces you to run one out of like ~2-4 Mons to be completely safe vs it whereas you can at least play around Lando-I with smart switching.
I ran stall succesfully in OST, superstars as well as world cup and Lando-I is honestly one of the lesser threats? So from my multiple experiences vs actual good players i get the notion that Lando-I isnt destroying stall but then you people claim that to be the case???? To further prove my point: ive succesfully LO-stalled a Lando-I with a stallteam yesterday that didnt have one of the blobs vs a decent player.
But maybe im just a god and able to outplay LandoI whenever i face one...... lol

Another thing: I dislike the LandoI+TTar+Keldeo core because its so binary. It either stops or it gets stomped.

Fun fact: Lando-I hasnt been used that much this wcop yet and ive seen hella stuff that isnt standard (cobalion !, yanmega, sharpedo, conkeldurr, slowking, slowbro, cofagrigus, azelf, ditto, golurk etc. pp.) and some people have been using stall pretty succesfully (see: LadyBug, reyscarface among others). This somehow contradicts the arguement that a) Lando-I fucks stall and b) that Lando-I forces a certain centralization that makes it unviable to use Mons outside of the top25 (weve seen UU's and lower tier-shit....). Some1 explain?

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I just cant comprehend how Lando-I is a bigger threat to stall then say Breloom. Breloom forces you to run one out of like ~2-4 Mons to be completely safe vs it whereas you can at least play around Lando-I with smart switching.
I ran stall succesfully in OST, superstars as well as world cup and Lando-I is honestly one of the lesser threats? So from my multiple experiences vs actual good players i get the notion that Lando-I isnt destroying stall but then you people claim that to be the case???? To further prove my point: ive succesfully LO-stalled a Lando-I with a stallteam yesterday that didnt have one of the blobs vs a decent player.
But maybe im just a god and able to outplay LandoI whenever i face one...... lol

Another thing: I dislike the LandoI+TTar+Keldeo core because its so binary. It either stops or it gets stomped.

Fun fact: Lando-I hasnt been used that much this wcop yet and ive seen hella stuff that isnt standard (cobalion !, yanmega, sharpedo, conkeldurr, slowking, slowbro, cofagrigus, azelf, ditto, golurk etc. pp.) and some people have been using stall pretty succesfully (see: LadyBug, reyscarface among others). This somehow contradicts the arguement that a) Lando-I fucks stall and b) that Lando-I forces a certain centralization that makes it unviable to use Mons outside of the top25 (weve seen UU's and lower tier-shit....). Some1 explain?

I don't think anyone is claiming that Landorus-I is the worst thing to happen to stall. What people don't like about Landorus is that is removes it's checks so easily. Breloom has solid checks in the form of Latias, Gliscor, Toxicroak, Celebi, Ammongus etc. While you could argue that yes, the Breloom user could switch into Tyranitar on the double switch to trap Celebi and Latias, it requires skill and prediction to do so. However, when using Landorus-I, prediction goes out the window, because it so easily U-turns into Tyranitar and eliminates the Pokemon completely.

Now as for Landorus-I not being used much in tournaments, I think it's pretty obvious that tournament players often use rather gimmicky sets to get an edge on the current metagame. I don't play much in tournaments, but this is what I'd generally expect vs. a high level player. I often see Taylor running gimmicky sets that are very effective, like DD Latios and RP + U-turn Landorus.

I hope that cleared up some points, but again, I'm not too sure about tournaments, since I'm not a tournament player.

 

[Reymedy]

When will we be done with this suspect ?

 

[ginganinja]

So we can agree while Landorus does pressure stall (as does so many other Pokemon in the metagame presently), that it is still not as bad as a lot of people are making it out to be?

I don't see how you can make that leap. Nothing in my post really stated that Landorus-I is 'less threatening' or less deserving of its current suspect status. I still believe its incredibly restricting in team creation, as well as still remaining being a handful to deal with. I don't really care that other pokemon defeat stall easier / better, because this isn't in our criteria for banning something.

 

[haunter]

When will we be done with this suspect ?

We're still missing around 45 votes. We'll be probably done in a couple of days.

 

[Reymedy]

We're still missing around 45 votes. We'll be probably done in a couple of days.

Thanks, actually I just noticed that this was up. Thus I voted.

So, I voted to ban Landorus.
I don't want to go into details because then it becomes endless, but the raw power of this thing, the coverage, the ability to pivot and massively screw any of his counters is too much for OU to handle in my humble opinion. On top of that, he works well with some other questionable/borderline OU inhabitants, pushing them across this line.
I truely believe the metagame will be better after this ban. And I can already see the metagame improving with the recent other suspects. I have no shame to be a ban happy guy in this context, cleaning this mess seems to be a priority.
My idea of a good OU tier would be minus Rain, Sun, Landorus, KyuremB. And if Rain is available in the metagame, Keldeo should belong to this list.

 

[Honus]

I just cant comprehend how Lando-I is a bigger threat to stall then say Breloom. Breloom forces you to run one out of like ~2-4 Mons to be completely safe vs it whereas you can at least play around Lando-I with smart switching.
I ran stall succesfully in OST, superstars as well as world cup and Lando-I is honestly one of the lesser threats? So from my multiple experiences vs actual good players i get the notion that Lando-I isnt destroying stall but then you people claim that to be the case???? To further prove my point: ive succesfully LO-stalled a Lando-I with a stallteam yesterday that didnt have one of the blobs vs a decent player.
But maybe im just a god and able to outplay LandoI whenever i face one...... lol

Another thing: I dislike the LandoI+TTar+Keldeo core because its so binary. It either stops or it gets stomped.

Fun fact: Lando-I hasnt been used that much this wcop yet and ive seen hella stuff that isnt standard (cobalion !, yanmega, sharpedo, conkeldurr, slowking, slowbro, cofagrigus, azelf, ditto, golurk etc. pp.) and some people have been using stall pretty succesfully (see: LadyBug, reyscarface among others). This somehow contradicts the arguement that a) Lando-I fucks stall and b) that Lando-I forces a certain centralization that makes it unviable to use Mons outside of the top25 (weve seen UU's and lower tier-shit....). Some1 explain?

i agree breloom is a huge dick to stall, [also shootingstarmie gliscor is not a counter lol +2 bullet seed ohkos if it gets 4/5 with a life orb if i remember right, it can ohko after an sd under some conditions though]. Anyways this is like the 5th time you've made a post like this, but it's actually got some fairly good logic behind it. Even in the hands of a good player, you can play around Landorus if you play a better game, I'm not sure you're a god but you're very a experienced and skilled player regardless. Anyways I think I've finally come up with an answer, for one thing a good amount of Pokemon can be played around and mitigated, which I'm sure 90% of the forum already knows, but Landorus-I is no exception, and that doesn't mean it isn't worthy of a ban. Additionally, even if Landorus-I isn't a complete stall killer like a Breloom or a Kyurem-B, do you honestly think it's good for the metagame? Remedy pretty much stated every reason why Landorus isn't good for this meta in his post. Landorus might not be a 1 man stall killer, but the fact that he is so powerful and has U-Turn can really put stall players in a bind if the opponent gets Landorus in, either something eats an Earth Power, or you switch to the counter which gets U-Turned [the fact that it's this powerful AND has such a nice way to bypass its counters is really bullshit]. this thing just puts an unecessary amount of pressure on stall, and forms a ridiculous combo with TTar and Keldeo to wreck offense, there's no doubt in my mind that the metagame is better without it

 

[MikeDawg]

Look. There's issue with presenting a list of calcs. There's issue with assuming teammates. There's issue with assuming multiple movesets. There's issue with assuming perfect prediction. There's issue with ignoring opposing conditions. There's issue with forgetting life orb damage. There's issue with relying on fblast.

But by far the LARGEST issue is held by the anti-ban side: opting to look at lando only in this heavily centralized meta rather than look at lando in the meta from the set's early inception.

Rock polish, I believe, was by far the most common set becauae you didn't need to u-turn out of celebi or latias or do anything of the like; you could just sweep. And let's face it, it is difficult to have a rock polish sweep in this meta.

And then u-turn came along after people started heavily preparing for rock polish and that was a whole different beast. While still great in this meta, it certainly has lost its touch with the countless gyara/rotom/etc running around.

Lando's decline is cause ONLY by sheer preperation. Which is not neccesarily a bad thing until you arealize the amount of change that has occured to keep but one pokemon at bat, whether the players realize it or not. Ginga and other have mentioned how lando puts a strain on team building, and when others disagree it is because they are either running hyper offense (which rarely changes with the meta) or they are naturally changing their new teams to fit the meta without realizing.

And before "oh hurp durp when did adaptation become bad?" The answer is when said adaption is the cause of a single pokemon and the adaption is the huge surge in (decent) players running 2/3/4 lando "checks" (which do indeed fit in other roles).

Speaking of the other roles argument, yes, these pokes are also fine keldeo checks or what have you, but let's face it. Before lando, you could run a tentacruel to keep keldeo at bay for practically the whole game. Or a jellicent or whatever. Despite how strong it was, unlike lando it did not present an overwhelming NEED for centralization around the poke in order for any sort of balanced/defensive team to survive.

And also, "i never had problems with lando" is not a good argument because of the above and also the ladder sucks.

There is no telling what the post meta will look like (lol suspect ladder), but it will assuradly be quite different once people realize the current meta-standard teams and cores are no longer neccesary and branching out and expansion are allowed to occur

 

[Halcyon.]

You make it seem like people use Latias, Celebi, Rotom-W, Bronzong, etc., simply because they can check Landorus, which is simply not the case. Each of those Pokémon is used right now because they check a whole bunch of common threats, while simultaneously being a somewhat reliable answer to a great special attacker in the tier. If Landorus gets banned, will Latias/Celebi usage go down? Maybe a little, but I would argue that they would still see a lot of usage due to the fact that they counter things like Keldeo and Breloom. Latias is also a decent check to Sun teams, being able to tank +2 Sludge Bombs from Venusaur and OHKO back, as well as absorbing stray Fire Blasts for weatherless teams. Celebi does the same thing for teams that struggle with rain. Rotom-W is used much more often because of Gyarados than Landorus, I would say. Bronzong is used to beat Garchomp and Scarf Salamence. Cresselia is used on Sun teams to deal with Terrakion. Obviously it is important that all these Pokémon can also handle Landorus, but you make it seem like people are running these things exclusively to combat Landorus. If the only counter to Landorus were things like Mandibuzz, and you had to run one in order to not get swept by Landorus, then I would agree that he was having an unhealthy effect on the metagame. But it seems to me that the counters like Latias and Celebi are so popular not because they can check Landorus (because honestly, with ScarfTar, they can't do it as reliably), but rather because they check a whole host of powerful threats in today's meta.

 

[Jukain]

Like I've said before, SR is assumed by nearly every competitive battler, and to not assume it's up is just stupid. "Oh SR is up, now I have no counters to Landorus-I". Is this really your thought process? Gyarados isn't a counter, and I've already talked about this, I don't want to keep repeating myself if you don't get the message the first time. Yes, Cresselia is paired up with Pokemon that can trap Tyranitar, but Landorus is paired up Pokemon that can trap all of it's checks. I don't think mentioning team mates is a very good argument because of this reason. And again, I don't know how many times I've said this but prediction goes both ways, meaning Dugtrio isn't going to always be trapping Tyranitar, just like Tyranitar isn't always going to be trapping Landorus-I's checks (although, it's arguably much easier to trap Landorus-I's checks because of U-turn allowing Tyranitar a free switch in that requires no prediction). Also, Dugtrio can only trap Tyranitar if SR isn't up on the Dugtrio user's field, as EarthQuake fails to KO, where as Tyranitar easily KOs back, so it doesn't even reliably trap it and SR is assumed by nearly every competitive battler.

Also, you've having to waste a turn Roosting, and you probably won't get the chance to Roost, since after U-turn you're being forced out by the incoming switch. In this situation the Landorus-I user always has the advantage.

Wait, explain to me you logic here. You're arguing that Landorus can have Tyranitar but Cresselia can't have Dugtrio. That makes, no offense, literally no sense. Also, SubReversal. What I'm seeing is "Landorus is always paired with Tyranitar (not true). Sand will always be up when fighting Landorus (also not true). That Tyranitar is both Choice Band and Choice Scarf. Additionally, the opponent only has one Landorus counter, and it has no partners." This is the partners argument I'm seeing from the pro-ban side. It just doesn't make sense. You're saying "Landorus is broken in a 2-3 Pokemon core, one that happens to get wrecked by Landorus itself and Keldeo. This isn't some godlike core that can beat everything. In my experience, Landorus relies too much on prediction and its teammates in order to be broken.

Wait a sec, so you plan on beating Landorus-I with guess work and if you guess wrong you lose? Doesn't seem very fair to me, sounds like a broken threat. I believe we should assume perfect prediction, because we have to assume the worst barring luck when facing Landorus-I to truly see how devastating Landorus-I can potential be. Also, you're acting as if Landorus-I has a hard time predicting a Pokemon to come in. Like I've said many times (along with BKC) is that prediction goes both ways. Landorus-I can just spam Earth Power most of the time anyway.

Relying on an opponent to mis-predict or miss a 70% accuracy move is not a way to deal with a Pokemon, and the fact that people are using this reasoning just shows how dangerous it can be.

If it can just spam Earth Power, you can't argue that it's going to every time predict right and Focus Blast, since Earth Power is of course the "safer move". And no, you're completely misunderstanding his post. He saying that the counter's user isn't an idiot either, and that it's very easy to force a safe move. If you force Landorus to U-turn, then it just lost ~23% of its health accounting for Life Orb and Stealth Rock. Even if you lose your counter, you still should be able to play around Landorus. Landorus is predicting 50/50's by what you're saying. They're 50/50's -- Landorus won't get them right every time. Of course prediction goes both ways, and everybody anti-ban appears to be accounting for that. The bolded statement is false because risk/reward would have Landorus generally go for the safer move. You've admitted this yourself. It's not a bad prediction to go for an Earth Power on a Forretress even when the opponent still has Rotom-W. You're risking a layer of Spikes or getting Gyro Ball'd down to fairly low health. Here, the risk of Focus Blast is greater than the reward. Landorus isn't brainless and requires skill to make the most of. That's not a broken Pokemon.

As a side note, I'm starting to love Reflect Type CM Latias. Gets Tyranitar every time n_n

 

[kd24]

Interesting thing to note about the "U-turn Lando vs stall team" argument is how people are throwing around that U-turn is completely a risk-free move. It really isn't. Yes, you could U-turn on the Forretress instead of Earth Powering it, but you just lost 22.5% of your health (if we count SR), and most likely just gave the Forretress a free spin, or a free layer of Spikes, or whatever. Yes, I know you could just straight up kill it, but please don't make it look like U-turn is risk-free.

There are so many variables to this situation that you're just talking out of your ass. In a lot of situations, it's just going to be the better play to Earth Power, even if they have a Latias/Celebi, especially if you still have a healthy Tyranitar who can take two attacks from them. It's almost risk free and a stall team using them probably isn't stacking up on offensive power from Latias/Celebi because they need all the defense they can muster to handle Terrakion, Keldeo, Landorus, etc. Going further than that, if you did want to U-Turn you're not going to use it in a risky position like that where Forretress is actually going to Spin away Hazards and isn't needed for anything else. You'd use it in a scenario where they're not going to do anything of benefit should they stay in, which isn't hard to force vs defensive teams. The last case scenario is where you actually NEED Forry to counter Kyurem-B or something, are you legitimately going to stay in vs Landorus which fires off Earth Powers at no cost? In that case, it could easily U-Turn knowing you don't have a choice in the manner (and staying in here would be beyond stupid on your end, so telling yourself that it's a possibility is beyond foolish. There is a chance they stay in and Earth Power)

I've seen U-Turn Landorus vs defensive teams and it's incredibly hard to mess it up if you're the Landorus player. All the pressure is on the defensive teams and often times, Landorus forces you into making a certain move which gives it freedom to make the right move. Inexperienced players might make risky moves with little payoff and win those predictions like Forry vs Landorus, but most likely not.

Edit: One last note is that Landorus is more likely to be Rock Polish than U-Turn, so your argument really falls flat because Forry should NEVER even consider staying in to the point it's revealed, and even then it should probably not consider staying in afterwards.

 

[MikeDawg]

You make it seem like people use Latias, Celebi, Rotom-W, Bronzong, etc., simply because they can check Landorus, .

Actually, I'm entriely certain that I qualified that not only once but multiple times within the post.

Please don't just tl;dr and stop at the first sentence if you are going to respond

 

[Halcyon.]

Actually, I'm entriely certain that I qualified that not only once but multiple times within the post.

Please don't just tl;dr and stop at the first sentence if you are going to respond

I'm aware of what you said, but the rest of the post contradicts that statement. Please don't just add things halfway through a post once you realize that you're wrong.

The answer is when said adaption is the cause of a single pokemon and the adaption is the huge surge in (decent) players running 2/3/4 lando "checks" (which do indeed fit in other roles).

Landorus is not the cause of the rise in usage of these Pokémon. You can't just say one thing and immediately say another and expect me to not call you out on it. Most of the "2/3/4 lando checks" people are running check Landorus as a nice bonus, not as their main role in a team. Any given team might have one thing that they set aside as their "Lando check," but liek I said before, any other thing used on a team is most likely there to counter something else. It also helps that a lot of Landorus's checks are extremely easy to fit on teams because of how the meta is shaped as a whole.

 

[MikeDawg]

I'm aware of what you said, but the rest of the post contradicts that statement. Please don't just add things halfway through a post once you realize that you're wrong.



Landorus is not the cause of the rise in usage of these Pokémon. You can't just say one thing and immediately say another and expect me to not call you out on it. Most of the "2/3/4 lando checks" people are running check Landorus as a nice bonus, not as their main role in a team. Any given team might have one thing that they set aside as their "Lando check," but liek I said before, any other thing used on a team is most likely there to counter something else. It also helps that a lot of Landorus's checks are extremely easy to fit on teams because of how the meta is shaped as a whole.

"Speaking of the other roles argument, yes, these pokes are also fine keldeo checks or what have you, but let's face it. Before lando, you could run a tentacruel to keep keldeo at bay for practically the whole game. Or a jellicent or whatever. Despite how strong it was, unlike lando it did not present an overwhelming NEED for centralization around the poke in order for any sort of balanced/defensive team to survive."

Never contradicted myself, simply qualified it as not being an absolute sentiment.

In other words, yes, these pokemon were useful before lando. But now you have to run either heavy offense or a multitude of them to survive

(Ie CONSTRAINS TEAMBUILDING)

The sheer decrease in lando's offensive prowess is certainly fair evidence for this

 

[Halcyon.]

What I'm saying is that you need to run a multitude of them ANYWAY to check things like Specs Politoed, Venusaur, Breloom, Garchomp, Gyarados, and a bunch of other powerful threats. It's not really constraining in the least since you have to run these things, or things like them, in any successful team regardless of Landorus. Once again, you're saying one thing and then saying something completely different. Is Landorus a restriction on teambuilding, or are these Pokémon useful in their own right against other top metagame threats? Which is it? I can have, say, Celebi on my team as a check to Landorus, and I can also have a Latias meant to check Venusaur, which also checks Landorus. That's not restriction, that's just where the meta has shifted. I would argue that this isn't Landorus's meta at all. Rather, I think it's Celebi's and Latias's since they do such an amazing job checking all the top tier threats.

 

[X5Dragon]

Well, if we are arguing Landrus is bad for the metagame because he makes stall even more unpopular....who was that mod that said smogon wasn't in the business of making certain playstyles more popular, rather prevent others from being dominant to the point that choosing any other playstyle is just futile or an attempt to be different?

Does that description fit the Tttar-Kel-Land core? I know we are talking about Landrus but we are also talking about restrictions to team building which means talking about his support crew as well.

 

[MikeDawg]

What I'm saying is that you need to run a multitude of them ANYWAY to check things like Specs Politoed, Venusaur, Breloom, Garchomp, Gyarados, and a bunch of other powerful threats. It's not really constraining in the least since you have to run these things, or things like them, in any successful team regardless of Landorus. Once again, you're saying one thing and then saying something completely different. Is Landorus a restriction on teambuilding, or are these Pokémon useful in their own right against other top metagame threats? Which is it? I can have, say, Celebi on my team as a check to Landorus, and I can also have a Latias meant to check Venusaur, which also checks Landorus. That's not restriction, that's just where the meta has shifted. I would argue that this isn't Landorus's meta at all. Rather, I think it's Celebi's and Latias's since they do such an amazing job checking all the top tier threats.

But then lando uses u-turn and celebi is KOd and latias is trapped, meaning you also have to run rotom-w, or forgoe celebi and hope water moves down break lati and that lando doesn't kill rotom with fblast. But then you stil have nothing to deal with latios so you add in a spdef jirachi which only further slows your team and makes you weaker to lando, etc.

You can't check everything, which is a general 5th gen problem, but lando comes in with its utility and coverage and makes things like a celebi+jirachi core unviable when they previously were able to cover pretty much all of the metagame's special threats (as well as a majority of the physical ones)

Lando does nothing besides accentuate already very prevelant issues with the metagame

 

[Halcyon.]

But then lando uses u-turn and celebi is KOd and latias is trapped, meaning you also have to run rotom-w, or forgoe celebi and hope water moves down break lati and that lando doesn't kill rotom with fblast. But then you stil have nothing to deal with latios so you add in a spdef jirachi which only further slows your team and makes you weaker to lando, etc.

You can't check everything, which is a general 5th gen problem, but lando comes in with its utility and coverage and makes things like a celebi+jirachi core unviable when they previously were able to cover pretty much all of the metagame's special threats (as well as a majority of the physical ones)

Lando does nothing besides accentuate already very prevelant issues with the metagame

U-turn doesn't kill Celebi, meaning you can Recover it off and now you know the opponent's set and can simply kill Landorus with something faster like Keldeo or even Starmie. And Celebi can't be trapped by Tyranitar either thanks to Baton Pass. Either way, Celebi was just an example. If I had Rotom-W and Latias, then you can't trap my designated Landorus counter and I still have something else that checks it waiting on the sidelines. The point I was trying to make (which you've now steered the conversation away from) is that many teams check Landorus multiple times without even having to try because the defensive Pokémon that check him also check/counter a plethora of other things. You said Landorus was restrictive on team building. I'm saying that isn't the case. That's all.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

i agree breloom is a huge dick to stall, [also shootingstarmie gliscor is not a counter lol +2 bullet seed ohkos if it gets 4/5 with a life orb if i remember right, it can ohko after an sd under some conditions though]

Okay first off I did not say Gliscor was a counter. Re-read my post and you'll see that I called it a solid check (which it is). It's immune to Spore once Posion Heal has been activated, and Breloom is out sped and hit hard by Ice Fang. Also you're assuming Breloom can get to +2 AND hit 5 bullet seeds. Regardless of whether you think Gliscor is a check or not doesn't matter, as my original post still stands about how Breloom has solid checks (Landorus-I doesn't). The Breloom user requires prediction and skill to trap Breloom's counters (the Landorus-I user doesn't). Breloom can be worn down by Sand, LO, Spikes, SR, and Toxic Spikes (Landorus-I only takes damage from SR and takes LO recoil only some of the time, meaning it isn't worn down easily). Breloom has piss weak defenses, meaning it's usually taken out by a strong STAB attack (let's say Latias' Psyshock), unlike Landorus-I (who can easily take a Giga Drain from Celebi, a Scald from Jellicent, or a Dragon Pulse from Latias). See where I'm getting at? How the hell does stall deal with this thing? And I don't think "playing around it" is a good enough answer to keep it on OU.

Sorry if I went a bit over board, but imo Landorus-I does more damage to stall teams than Breloom, and that's saying something.

Wait, explain to me you logic here. You're arguing that Landorus can have Tyranitar but Cresselia can't have Dugtrio. That makes, no offense, literally no sense. Also, SubReversal. What I'm seeing is "Landorus is always paired with Tyranitar (not true). Sand will always be up when fighting Landorus (also not true). That Tyranitar is both Choice Band and Choice Scarf. Additionally, the opponent only has one Landorus counter, and it has no partners." This is the partners argument I'm seeing from the pro-ban side. It just doesn't make sense. You're saying "Landorus is broken in a 2-3 Pokemon core, one that happens to get wrecked by Landorus itself and Keldeo. This isn't some godlike core that can beat everything. In my experience, Landorusrelies too much on prediction and its teammates in order to be broken.

If it can just spam Earth Power, you can't argue that it's going to every time predict right and Focus Blast, since Earth Power is of course the "safer move". And no, you're completely misunderstanding his post. He saying that the counter's user isn't an idiot either, and that it's very easy to force a safe move. If you force Landorus to U-turn, then it just lost ~23% of its health accounting for Life Orb and Stealth Rock. Even if you lose your counter, you still should be able to play around Landorus. Landorus is predicting 50/50's by what you're saying. They're 50/50's -- Landorus won't get them right every time. Of course prediction goes both ways, and everybody anti-ban appears to be accounting for that. The bolded statement is false because risk/reward would have Landorus generally go for the safer move. You've admitted this yourself. It's not a bad prediction to go for an Earth Power on a Forretress even when the opponent still has Rotom-W. You're risking a layer of Spikes or getting Gyro Ball'd down to fairly low health. Here, the risk of Focus Blast is greater than the reward. Landorus isn't brainless and requires skill to make the most of. That's not a broken Pokemon.

As a side note, I'm starting to love Reflect Type CM Latias. Gets Tyranitar every time n_n

Are you actually being serious? Did you even read my post at all? Where the hell did I say Cresselia didn't have Dugtrio?

"Yes, Cresselia is paired up with Pokemon that can trap Tyranitar, but Landorus is paired up Pokemon that can trap all of it's checks. I don't think mentioning team mates is a very good argument because of this reason. And again, I don't know how many times I've said this but prediction goes both ways, meaning Dugtrio isn't going to always be trapping Tyranitar, just like Tyranitar isn't always going to be trapping Landorus-I's checks (although, it's arguably much easier to trap Landorus-I's checks because of U-turn allowing Tyranitar a free switch in that requires no prediction). Also, Dugtrio can only trap Tyranitar if SR isn't up on the Dugtrio user's field, as EarthQuake fails to KO, where as Tyranitar easily KOs back, so it doesn't even reliably trap it and SR is assumed by nearly every competitive battler."
I honestly don't know what to say to this. I go into detail about how Dugtrio only beats Tyranitar if SR isn't on the side of the field (and it's an assumed battle condition) and you basically say I don't mention that Cresselia is paired up with Dugtrio...what?

Also, please don't try to pretend Tyranitar isn't always paired up with Landorus-I. Tyranitar +34.560%. So basically every one in three battles with Lanorus-I you will see Tyranitar, I think that's more than enough to say it's kinda a standard condition. Also where did I state that Tyranitar is both Choice Scarf and Choice Banded, please tell me, because I don't remember posting something like that, nor do I see it in my previous posts.
I actually didn't want to bring team mates into this argument, I believe you're the one that brought up the fact that Dugtrio can trap Tyranitar, and so I responded with the same argument, but on the flip side (Tyranitar can trap Landorus-I's counters).

I said most of the time it's going to be spamming Earth Power, but of course this is subjective and is determined by the battle. If the Landorus-I user is facing a team with 2 Pokemon with Levitate and a Celebi, chances are it's not going to be spamming Earth Power (I assumed you would have figured this out).

Just a small nit pick, but if you're going to assume SR isn't on the field, then it needs to be assumed on both sides (meaning Landorus-I isn't takes 23%, it's taking a mere 10% for a shit load of momentum)

"They're 50/50's -- Landorus won't get them right every time."

But that means 50% of the time it will. Do you really want a game to be decided one 50/50? Doesn't sound like a very competitive game, we might as well all start playing Rock Paper Scissors, lol. Smogon aims to create the most competitive game, and it trys to eliminate most factors of luck. 50/50 is luck, and isn't competitive.