np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[Schpoonman]

PDC, we must be using vastly different sun teams, because the only time I have ever been swept by Landorus with my current sun team is when I played poorly. Sun teams are throwing around a shitton of very powerful attacks, so Landorus is hard-pressed to set up.

 

[reyscarface]

no need to set up when it can kill absolutely everything from a sun team with earth power or mess up their momentum with a simple uturn

 

[Deluks917]

I am voting no ban on Landorus. He seems bad against offense in general and rain offens ein particular. This is a huge liability in the current (and expected BW) metagame.

The keys to making reqs easily are:

1) Play first game when ladder is inactive. Getting matched vs a 1600-1850 in your first 1-4 games permanently increases your score by alot.

2) Make a new account if you lose any of first 8 (really 10) games.

If you do both you can play badly remaining games and still make it no problem.

 

[PttP]

If you're gonna quit then stop being such a fucking negative nancy and quit already.

As for the topic at hand, Landorus is definitely a scary pokemon, much more so than what I felt Excadrill was during his era. Landorus pretty much forces you to use Lati@s or Celebi on balanced teams which kind of sucks I'm not gonna lie. In my opinion offensive teams don't have nearly as much of a problem since that modest nature really slow Landorus down, but it's really scary once it gets a rock polish down obviously. I'm pretty conflicted on this one, which is probably why I'm not going to try getting voting rights (that and the fact that WCoP training is much more efficient on PO than PS cause everyone on PS sucks.)

edit: lol a post being deleted makes mine look pretty dumb

 

[Agent Gibbs]

depends on the situation... most pokemon don't have pokemon you can just switch in on. that is why they are OU. Scizor can switch into HP ice for instance. Gengar can switch in to EP and FB. Any flying or levitating pokemon can switch into EP. All rotom formes can come in basically for free.... It just depends. If I were to say anything you would come back with a scenario where you just made an amazing move or you have such and such counter. Landorus has plenty of switch ins. unless your opponent has u-turn which is a plus for me because now he loses 10% and another 12% on the switch in so he probably won't do that again.

Okay, but those aren't necessarily better switch-ins. Assuming the standard Earth Power / Focus Blast / HP Ice setup, SpDef Celebi, CM Latias, and SpDef Jellicent switch into all three pretty easily. None of the Pokemon you mentioned can switch into all three like they can besides maybe Gengar, which is hardly a defensive Pokemon (I'll give you that one, though). And yes, I know that not all Pokemon have reliable switch-ins, but again, this was all about "key" defensive Pokemon and whether they can KO Landorus or not. Not everything you mentioned can do that.

In addition, Landorus may lose 22.5% health from that ordeal, but your counter might have also switched in on Stealth Rock and taken a bit of damage from U-turn, and now your opponent has the momentum and might force a bit more damage from Stealth Rock and whatever attack they use. Landorus might take some damage, but you hardly came out on top.

I just bring it in on the revenge...Having one of your pokemon just get killed is one of the most useful momentum gainers in the game. since HP ice choice scarf is so shit you would never expect it... Dead landorus-i...He gone

Oh certainly, but there are still problems with that as well. For one thing, you're talking about a revenge killer. That would require you to let something die every time you want to bring Celebi in, and if you're doing that, you're going to get behind really fast. Now, that wouldn't be a problem if you're actually able to kill off Landorus, but in that case you're just hoping that the Landorus user goes for the U-turn and doesn't just switch out. In fact, if it doesn't have U-turn at all, it most likely will switch out. Now your opponent just switched something into your weak HP Ice and you're behind again.

you and him don't get it

What I get is that Scarf Celebi is a mediocre set that you're using mainly to keep Landorus in check. It's a neat set and all, but it really doesn't have many other advantages over other Scarf users. You do well against Sheer Force Landorus (provided they actually stay in to take the hit), but the other 94% of the time, you're using an otherwise inferior set.

Because the biggest arguement is that landorus has tyranitar to systematically remove it's counters... (although celebi doesnt work anymore because of baton pass). Do you think tornadus would have been uber without rain? Fuck no. It would have been in FU tier without rain.

The only reason that the deal with Tyranitar is such a big argument is because there is a debate as to whether or not Landorus should be banned on account of Tyranitar's support. There are many other qualities that add to Landorus's possible brokenness such as it's raw power, coverage...pretty much everything I mentioned before, but those are less debatable. Tyranitar's contribution to Landorus's brokenness is a subject of much more debate, and so it is discussed more, but that does not mean that it's the only reason Landorus is being suspected right now.

As a side note, of course Tornadus-T wouldn't have been banned without Politoed, but they certainly aren't the same thing. Tornadus-T's main STAB goes from perfectly accurate to very unreliable when Rain is taken away, which makes it much less effective. Landorus appreciates Tyranitar's ability to remove a few of its counters, but it's still a powerful Pokemon with or without Tyranitar. Besides, some one could just as easily take your argument and use it as an argument for banning Landorus since, just as Politoed helped break Tornadus-T, Tyranitar might help break Landorus.

 

[Curtains]

Okay, but those aren't necessarily better switch-ins. Assuming the standard Earth Power / Focus Blast / HP Ice setup, SpDef Celebi, CM Latias, and SpDef Jellicent switch into all three pretty easily. None of the Pokemon you mentioned can switch into all three like they can besides maybe Gengar

Well that's unfair... You can't attack me with three moves at the same time.... Especially allowing you hit focus blast twice on a prediction! What the fuck? But really that's the point... once you make a play and predict a move you get in and do your business. That is why you play around certain things and make the right moves to get an advantage.

but your counter might have also switched in on Stealth Rock and taken a bit of damage from U-turn

Landorus' u-turn is shit weak for the recoil you take and it is all dependent on if you even have a good switch in in the first place (which is always wrongly assumed).

For one thing, you're talking about a revenge killer. That would require you to let something die every time you want to bring Celebi in, and if you're doing that, you're going to get behind really fast

252 SpA Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 229-270 (71.78 - 84.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


(i cant believe we are still talking about CS celebi let it go people)
I don't even have to go to HP ice. I can just leaf storm for huge damage and probably the end of lando-i that game. Also I can double switch, u-turn. I have many options of getting in on lando but revenge killing is the best way to get in to lure him to go for u-turn because he/she doesnt get to see if I have lefties or not.

it most likely will switch out

Only if it doesn't have u-turn... He will u-turn if he can't see if I have lefties or not. Even then it still might stay in since giga drain only does 40% like the other guy said and HP ice is shit according to you guys.

What I get is that Scarf Celebi is a mediocre set that you're using mainly to keep Landorus in check.

Yet you keep bringing it up. I never said it was a excellent tier 1 scarfed pokemon for this metagame. I said it fills a certain niche on certain teams and it can be useful to kill a stray lando-i if he is not expecting scarfed.

Besides, some one could just as easily take your argument and use it as an argument for banning Landorus since, just as Politoed helped break Tornadus-T, Tyranitar might help break Landorus.

Just because it was banned doesn't mean it was or is broken.... going back to how much subjectivity goes into arguments and test like this...And i said suspected not banned.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Well that's unfair... You can't attack me with three moves at the same time.... Especially allowing you hit focus blast twice on a prediction! What the fuck? But really that's the point... once you make a play and predict a move you get in and do your business. That is why you play around certain things and make the right moves to get an advantage.

It's not really unfair. Those three moves are the standard setup, so if you really want a safe switch-in, you've got to be able to actually switch into Landorus safely. Remember that prediction goes both ways, so while you think you might be able to sidestep an Earth Power and get your Scizor in safely on HP Ice, the opponent can just as easily predict that and use Earth Power (or just spam Earth Power out of laziness) and KO your Scizor. If we were going one move at a time, then Lucario would be considered a good switch-in to Terrakion since it takes crap from Stone Edge.

Landorus' u-turn is shit weak for the recoil you take and it is all dependent on if you even have a good switch in in the first place (which is always wrongly assumed).

I think your overestimating just how weak it is. 4 Atk Naive LO Landorus's U-turn OHKOs SpDef Celebi 43.75% of the time after Stealth Rock. With just those leftover 4 EVs tossed into its Atk stat, Landorus is about as powerful as a Pokemon with a fully invested base 95 Atk stat, which isn't that bad.

I know you'd have to assume that you have a good switch-in, but to be honest, if you don't have a good answer to whatever your opponent has out right now, there's a good chance you just lost. That's probably either because of bad teambuilding or good playing on the side of Landorus's opponent throughout the match, which would be way too many variables to take into account.

252 SpA Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 229-270 (71.78 - 84.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


(i cant believe we are still talking about CS celebi let it go people)
I don't even have to go to HP ice. I can just leaf storm for huge damage and probably the end of lando-i that game. Also I can double switch, u-turn. I have many options of getting in on lando but revenge killing is the best way to get in to lure him to go for u-turn because he/she doesnt get to see if I have lefties or not.

To be fair, you brought up Choice Scarf Celebi to begin with.

My celebi can be scarfed to outspeed the u-turn.... "but curtains no one the fuck uses scarf"

And you were the one who asserted that it was a good counter to Landorus.

Scarf celebi is a good counter to lando.

If you'd like to stop talking about Scarf Celebi, I'm fine with that. I've pretty much said everything I want to say about it.

Only if it doesn't have u-turn... He will u-turn if he can't see if I have lefties or not. Even then it still might stay in since giga drain only does 40% like the other guy said and HP ice is shit according to you guys.

There are lots of factors that could give away the fact that you lack Leftovers, such as Sandstorm and Stealth Rock. But just like it is a wrong assumption that you will have a solid answer to the opponent's Landorus check, it's also a wrong assumption that Landorus will not only have U-turn, but that it will stay in and use it.

Yet you keep bringing it up. I never said it was a excellent tier 1 scarfed pokemon for this metagame. I said it fills a certain niche on certain teams and it can be useful to kill a stray lando-i if he is not expecting scarfed.

Fair enough, but keep in mind that it is still a team specific set that will not work for everyone. From the standpoint of the Landorus player, Celebi with HP Ice is still something that you're not going to see often at all.

 

[Sam]

why are you even bringing up a celebi without baton pass if you're gonna talk about countering lando? scarfing celebi takes away from celebi's prime purpose of being a defensive counter to lando and keldeo. lock yourself in to any move with celebi and that's basically as good as sacrificing it. giving up celebi for just the possibility of taking out lando (assuming the lando user doesn't just switch) leaves your team very vulnerable to keldeo now and loom and other mons that celebi is supposed to stop (especially keldeo with the popularity of the ttar keldeo lando core). lando could u-turn on the switch as well, ko'ing celebi anyway. please stop using scarf celebi as an example because you are wrong.

 

[Kidogo]

Curtains by your logic scarf breloom with max speed and SpD is a great check to landorus--after all, it can come in after a kill and spore, and it can live any hit. Meanwhile, most landorus players won't go out because usually they OHKO with hp ice or focus blast. So you spore them, and they're out of the game.

Guys, just try to ignore him. It's hard, I know, but it will lead to a much more productive discussion.

I'm still not convinced on this one though. I like to compare suspects to terrakion, one of the most prominent offensive threats, but who we basically agree is not broken. On their own, they are fairly similar. Landy is somewhat stronger without a boost thanks to SF, while terra is significantly faster. Typings are similarish in terms of weaknesses, landy has a ground and fighting resist in exchange for a rock and fire resist, not a big deal but landy definitely has better defensive typing. Priority is a big issue for both of them (BP / mach punch for terra, ajet / shard / BP somewhat for landy), no big difference there. Landy is immune to spikes while terra is resistant to SR, balances out. Both can boost speed, while terra also has SD. Pretty similar overall.

Landy does have a team support element though. The fact that almost all of landy's counters are pursuit-weak means the landy + ttar core is very effective. However, terrakion can do basically the same thing with gothitelle--skarmory, gliscor, landy-t, slowbro, even stuff like the nidos are all easily trapped and KOed. The big difference here is that the trapper that goes along with terrakion is much less common and viable in this meta. Still, is there anything that can counter terrakion without easily being trapped by gothitelle?

U-turn may be the thing that breaks landy in my mind, if anything. Otherwise, what does landy + ttar really have over terrakion + goth? Except...if you run u-turn, you're not a sweeper, just a very very powerful reasonably fast mon with good coverage and no recoil. But I just don't see this as broken--this has become all too common, and honestly, genesect for one wouldn't have been banned without its RP set, right? If landy runs u-turn that's what it basically is, except with a lot worse coverage and worse typing and less power. Not really ban-worthy in my opinion. Thoughts?

 

[yee]

Curtains by your logic scarf breloom with max speed and SpD is a great check to landorus--after all, it can come in after a kill and spore, and it can live any hit. Meanwhile, most landorus players won't go out because usually they OHKO with hp ice or focus blast. So you spore them, and they're out of the game.

Guys, just try to ignore him. It's hard, I know, but it will lead to a much more productive discussion.

I'm still not convinced on this one though. I like to compare suspects to terrakion, one of the most prominent offensive threats, but who we basically agree is not broken. On their own, they are fairly similar. Landy is somewhat stronger without a boost thanks to SF, while terra is significantly faster. Typings are similarish in terms of weaknesses, landy has a ground and fighting resist in exchange for a rock and fire resist, not a big deal but landy definitely has better defensive typing. Priority is a big issue for both of them (BP / mach punch for terra, ajet / shard / BP somewhat for landy), no big difference there. Landy is immune to spikes while terra is resistant to SR, balances out. Both can boost speed, while terra also has SD. Pretty similar overall.

Landy does have a team support element though. The fact that almost all of landy's counters are pursuit-weak means the landy + ttar core is very effective. However, terrakion can do basically the same thing with gothitelle--skarmory, gliscor, landy-t, slowbro, even stuff like the nidos are all easily trapped and KOed. The big difference here is that the trapper that goes along with terrakion is much less common and viable in this meta. Still, is there anything that can counter terrakion without easily being trapped by gothitelle?

U-turn may be the thing that breaks landy in my mind, if anything. Otherwise, what does landy + ttar really have over terrakion + goth? Except...if you run u-turn, you're not a sweeper, just a very very powerful reasonably fast mon with good coverage and no recoil. But I just don't see this as broken--this has become all too common, and honestly, genesect for one wouldn't have been banned without its RP set, right? If landy runs u-turn that's what it basically is, except with a lot worse coverage and worse typing and less power. Not really ban-worthy in my opinion. Thoughts?

I agree with basically all of this.

All I have to respond is the last part, because I think the 2 verys are not enough to describe it. It breaks things like Jelli / Rotom-W no problem which is just ridiculously strong, combine that with the literal complete lack of things that can switch into and not get boned by Sand + SR + any of the 4 attacks and it makes sense that BW2 is a "just outrun that thing" or "just run offense" kind of metagame. Without recoil, Lando's life isn't limited to one kill by a Hippo Ice Fang, random HP Ice, E-Speed, Mach Punch etc. because it'll never finish it off and it will be easy to leave it high enough to get another kill. You can't just tank it and weaken it because it's life is longer than that without LO recoil, and you have literally nothing that will be likely to improve your position by switching into it. It's spammable with Mewtwo like power, it doesn't get worn down, and as a cherry on top it pairs perfectly with TTar.

This isn't as relevant but if you saw that CM Lando vs stall scenario play out in your head or in a game it's just toying with the player. I mean it is absolutely on the stall player if they don't have at least a couple outs to it because they need to outspeed everything anyway but you're just getting way more power than you'd even dream of needing and you're easily going to avoid getting worn down.

If anyone wants a repost of me saying that it is uncompetitive in different words here's the relevant bit from my last one-

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This flows into why I'd say both are overpowered. With Lando being able to fairly easily smack every check but Latias in a Vaccuum, and Keldeo blowing by offensive and defensive checks (another fun fact, Mence can be OHKOed with no rocks at all by a water move and Amoonguss is 2HKOed the same way), in a metagame with Tyranitar you're just not going to counter them. Say Lando could be stopped by Blissey / Rotom-W / Gastrodon etc., or Keldeo was stopped by general bulky waters like Tentacruel and Rotom, or even if they weren't so fast we wouldn't be having this suspect discussion. Since they do however, they centralize the metagame and we have to try to figure out if and why it's a bad thing as I've done below.

It is reasonable to just try to outplay them or use them yourself, but look at the spectrum of defense and offense in other metagames. When you're dealing with them using methods of "run 6 weird mons that are faster" or "just use offense" (obviously this is a simplification but the point is clear), the play of the metagame gets stale. There's no where near an even distribution of teams between Hard Stall on the left end and Full Heavy Offense on the right, the right side of the teeter-tooter is going through the ground by people obeying their competitive interests.

And another random post where I say why Lando and Keld are on a different level from Terrakion (very fitting that it went from S Rank to A+)-

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Keldeo is by far the #1 pokemon in BW if you're looking for a king, Lando as #2, everything else clumped together at #3 imo. To put it simply, those two are the only two offensive threats that are so powerful that attempting to counter them with anything but more offense is putting yourself at a disadvantage. Keld don't need any help even from SR to break things like SpD Rotom-W /Tentacruel Amoonguss in rain, and Lando isn't countered in practice by things like Blissey / Rotom-W / Gastrodon etc. (even things like Milotic if you wanted to break out the most raw bulky water possible). By in practice I mean SR and sand damage factored in, which is every game if you want it to be basically.

It almost completely limits your options for those two to those two mons we all know about. There's no such thing as running a random SpD Mew or Milo or something to tank two EPs from Lando, and there's no just using Tentacruel or Gyarados as your backup water resist for Keldeo (Gyara can't even set up on Scarf Keldeo Hydro Pump unless its basically max HP and no investment is just OHKOed by Specs Hydro after SR sometimes). If you have both of these two mons in BW2, you can't counter everything. It's said a lot but it is now the case that you won't be able to directly counter all of the top of the crop threats without relying on guesses / misses against at least one of them, which is different from the usual "this purposely built wallbreaker or uncommon set will pop up to get you once in a while".

The reason Keld is at #1 with Lando #2 is mostly because Keld wins the questionable offensive threat speed war comfortably at 108 (Lati@s aren't on the same page power wise) and Lando joins Keldeo in that tier above things like Terrakion / Garchomp / Latios etc. in terms of ability to whoop ass. All of those 3 can just be stacked against on balance or stall to ensure that it'll be something besides them that beats you, and other threats like Thund and Volc are obviously less spammable than the top two.

In case anyone wants clarity on what I mean by stacking, for any physical threat in BW2 the defensive power creep has probably outcreeped the offense. Lando-T / Quag / Tangrowth / Skarm and other physical walls will synergize with each other to the point where pure physical wallbreakers can't have an easy time against slow teams even if there's a lot of them; you have to resort to mixed stuff or different sets if you wanna try to beat stall teams (if there were any). For Latios it's sufficient IMO to just point out that Sand / Rain / Sun teams are there.

tl;dr meta is permanently offense > defense, Keldeo and Landorus are better than everything else offensive + they are the only individual pokemon that are capable of causing this shift, and Keldeo is better than Landorus.

 

[George Eliot]

@Kidogo - Tyranitar actually beats the things it's supposed to trap easily, removes Rain / Sun, and is a generally solid special wall / wallbreaker. Gothitelle doesn't do any of that, and it really doesn't have any compensating advantages. It throws away momentum in virtually every scenario as well. And it can't switch-in, and it's liable to getting Toxic stalled (Glisc), U-turned on (Land-T), failing to OHKO something like Skarm and giving the opponent another layer of hazards, etc etc. Terrakion + Goth just isn't comparable to Lando + Tar in any way.

That's significant because it really is only Lando + Tar which breaks Landorus. Celebi and Latias can carry HP Fire for Scizor; Weavile can never switch in, is weak to everything and every hazard, and is generally high risk. Tyranitar might actually be, in many ways, too strong, but I can't think of a viable reason to ban it - it doesn't force you to use the Pokémon it traps, it's Lando / Keldeo (/ Breloom sorta) which have the tiny list of counters which are all Pursuit or SR weak. Thus, the only possible recourse is to ban those Pokémon, despite them being likely not broken without Tar.

Oh yeah and yee's post sums up everything perfectly.

 

[Curtains]

Curtains by your logic scarf breloom with max speed and SpD is a great check to landorus--after all, it can come in after a kill and spore, and it can live any hit. Meanwhile, most landorus players won't go out because usually they OHKO with hp ice or focus blast. So you spore them, and they're out of the game.

Guys, just try to ignore him. It's hard, I know, but it will lead to a much more productive discussion.

Are you kidding me... is this the level of thinking we have stooped down to? This is atrocious.... You missed the part where I said that scarfed celebi is not the end all be all to landorus-i and it can be a good backup for it and can secure some kills if the opponent doesn't expect it. Also you missed the part where I said it can fulfill some other needs on certain teams. When did anyone say breloom was a lando counter anyway? To bring a breloom out to a obviously special lando means you are obviously scarfed and he will switch. I thought you were higher quality than this man. Disappointed really. You have to be trolling and if you are then I fell for it so congrats to that.

 

[Iamlegendshot66]

Are you kidding me... is this the level of thinking we have stooped down to? This is atrocious.... You missed the part where I said that scarfed celebi is not the end all be all to landorus-i and it can be a good backup for it and can secure some kills if the opponent doesn't expect it. Also you missed the part where I said it can fulfill some other needs on certain teams. When did anyone say breloom was a lando counter anyway? To bring a breloom out to a obviously special lando means you are obviously scarfed and he will switch. I thought you were higher quality than this man. Disappointed really. You have to be trolling and if you are then I fell for it so congrats to that.

Its not obvious at all, as who the fuck runs choice scarf breloom? I didn't even know it was viable option until now, and it does cheak landorus very well. Also the opponent could be expecting standered breloom with mach punch, to get some extra damage on it so another pokemon can switch in to secure the kill.
You are trolling, if you think people are going to expect a breloom coming out on a landorus to be scarfed, when it could be just to get extra damage. LOL who even expects it?

 

[Soul Fly]

There is a fine line between innovation and being dumb.

I'll just leave it at that.

It's fine to have an opinion that Landorus-I doesn't break the metagame (which I also happen to share), but it really harms the credibility of every person in the no-ban group when someone makes an argument like this.

When we present checks and counters we always have to be sure that they are not dead weight if not faced against that pokemon. Teambuilding 101.
No, seriously. I have a dozen legitimate ways to deal with Landorus but............. scarf celebi? :evan:


edit: I still feel we should have had keldeo up on the chopping block first. this would have given us greater objectivity on Landorus, since Scarf Keldeo atm is one of the top U-Turn switches for Lando, screwing switch ins like Mamoswine (on Hp ice and EP) who can actually scare off Tyranitar. And It's also fucking annoying that people keep bring KeldTar into this.

 

[Honus]

Are you kidding me... is this the level of thinking we have stooped down to? This is atrocious.... You missed the part where I said that scarfed celebi is not the end all be all to landorus-i and it can be a good backup for it and can secure some kills if the opponent doesn't expect it. Also you missed the part where I said it can fulfill some other needs on certain teams. When did anyone say breloom was a lando counter anyway? To bring a breloom out to a obviously special lando means you are obviously scarfed and he will switch. I thought you were higher quality than this man. Disappointed really. You have to be trolling and if you are then I fell for it so congrats to that.

"A good backup". It's a TEAM SLOT LOL. You're actually considering using a base 100 spatk with pretty bad offensive STAB, just to counter Landorus. I mean there are creative ways to beat Big L; someone on PO Ladder beat me with Scarf Ice Beam TTar which, while it hurts Scarf Tyranitar's coverage, it's still a solid scarfer and the set isn't totally compromised. Scarf Celebi is just a ridiculous suggestion, in a meta where having offensive power and having answers to the top threats is everything, you're really advocating a poke as mediocre as Scarf Celebi.

To bring a breloom out to a obviously special lando means you are obviously scarfed and he will switch.

Won't it do this anyways if it doesn't have U-Turn, then you just threw away all of your momentum to throw off a weak HP Ice.

EDIT: Yeah, typo, my thoughts kind of get crisscrossed when i post lol, thanks vv

 

[G-Von]

I just want to make a point that, for some reason got ignored last time I mentioned it, Landorus has a way to break past it's would-be counters by using Calm Mind. IDK if anyone here has tried using it with it's standard Earth Power/Focus Blast/HP Ice coverage, but I have and it completely wrecks some of it's counters like Latias, Celebi, and Zapdos. Things like Gyarados and Cresselia still give it a hard time but it can just continuously boost up on Cress if it lacks Ice Beam.

 

[shrang]

You can't beat Latias in a Calm Mind war, just saying.

 

[Soul Fly]

I just want to make a point that, for some reason got ignored last time I mentioned it, Landorus has a way to break past it's would-be counters by using Calm Mind. IDK if anyone here has tried using it with it's standard Earth Power/Focus Blast/HP Ice coverage, but I have and it completely wrecks some of it's counters like Latias, Celebi, and Zapdos. Things like Gyarados and Cresselia still give it a hard time but it can just continuously boost up on Cress if it lacks Ice Beam.

loses to CM Latias 10/10 times

plus you give up momentum (Ground/Flying is a mediocre defensive typing) and are easily killed by anything with scarf or naturally faster, especially since you cannot U-Turn out.

That's just removing every merit of Landorus we're basing this suspect test on.

 

[reyscarface]

yeah gliscor is an absolutely shitty defensive pokemon, his typing is so bad (hint: its not)

 

[Soul Fly]

yeah gliscor is an absolutely shitty defensive pokemon, his typing is so bad (hint: its not)

Yes because mediocre = shitty. Props to you. (hint: NO, but lrn2read)

Plus it's the 75/125/75 bulk (INVESTED) COUPLED WITH poison heal + protect which makes it that good, compared to 89/90/80 (uninvested) which Landorus has, with no passive recovery or usually a free moveslot to run protect for scouting.

so yeah, I stand by what I said.

 

[reyscarface]

you didnt say any stats or abilities, you said ground/flying is a mediocre defensive typing when its actually a good one, idc what level of badness you give to the words mediocre and shitty but fact is its a good one, as it resists pretty much all of the important types of the physical spectrum.

calm mind is utter shit btw, really theres no reason to use anything other than uturn in the last spot.

 

[Soul Fly]

you didnt say any stats or abilities, you said ground/flying is a mediocre defensive typing when its actually a good one, idc what level of badness you give to the words mediocre and shitty but fact is its a good one, as it resists pretty much all of the important types of the physical spectrum.

No you mentioned Gliscor and named names. I just said ground/flying. The onus is on you to tell us why. You just don't shift goalposts like that. Don't suddenly name a mon with a completely different purpose just to digress. I already mentioned why Landorus cannot emulate gliscor's durability, despite the same typing. For an offensive pokemon his typing brings very big drawbacks, without speed boosts.(read: keldeo) (read: ice/ice shard) (read rain/aqua jet) which are pretty fucking common.

And if you don't know the differnce between 'mediocre' and 'shitty', or don't understand my context of usage at the very least don't go putting words in my mouth.

 

[kd24]

ground/flying is definitely not mediocre, i dunno what you're talking about soul fly. a big reason of why landorus is such a big deal to me instead of something like terrakion is the typing. immune to spikes, neutral to dragon/grass/steel and resists fighting (and immune to electric/ground). amazing typing in general, whether it be on gliscor or landorus. landorus uses it to stick around forever and guarantee a few kos from it. that is the sign of a GOOD defensive typing, and typing in general

 

[Soul Fly]

ground/flying is definitely not mediocre, i dunno what you're talking about soul fly. a big reason of why landorus is such a big deal to me instead of something like terrakion is the typing. immune to spikes, neutral to dragon/grass/steel and resists fighting (and immune to electric/ground). amazing typing in general, whether it be on gliscor or landorus. landorus uses it to stick around forever and guarantee a few kos from it. that is the sign of a GOOD defensive typing, and typing in general

I was only talking about it in response to GVon's post where he mentioned CM, which implies special bulk and no speed, which being an offensive mon leaves it vulnerable to slew of sweepers in OU sweepers which are faster and the fact that despite all the pros it's weak to pretty common coverage options (water/ice) and even Physical stuff like Terrakion leave a huge dent on it.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 267-315 (83.69 - 98.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.


So it's definitely not "sweeping" with that.

Please note again. My answer was VERY specific to Landorus being able to survive common coverage sweepers while boosting without Speed.

 

[badabing]

i feel like a hyperintellectual essay would be grossly exaggerated in this case so ill just get to the point. lando isnt broken. the rp sweeper is easily checked, difficult to setup cleanly, and wallable. the pure attacking uturner hits hard, abuses its power with little drawback, and builds unprecedented momentum but even then its middling speed and inferior aspects of its typing/coverage make it feel manageable. there are plenty of other threats in this generation both stronger and faster, more readily switched in, and less reliant on prediction due to possessing more unforgiving coverage. however all of this is being said in the setting of the current metagame which i believe to be less than ideal and when i look at the metagame in lando's absence, i feel like it only improves. the sand stalls everpresent at the ending of bw1 become viable again, sun becomes more solid, and most importantly the hyper offensive gear of the metagame gets taken down a notch. slower teams in general that often gave lando too big of a window to exploit with uturn become viable and i think this will especially help teambuilding in this generation to come more full circle. with lando banned and hopefully keldeo as well, i think bw will be somewhat playable again.

as for solutions to the overall suck of the ladder, would it be possible to make both of these ladders separate so that people have to apply to play in them or even just set a time where tiering contribs can congregate on the gr0tt0 and duke it out for a while?