Ninjask is a Terrible Lead

I'm about to type a lot of words about how Ninjask is terrible, and how sick I am of using that ugly, stupid bug. I'll probably mention how Ninjask is a gimmicky novelty, and only useful for scamming games off of scrubs; how anybody who's played any amount of time will easily foil and frustrate any fool who would ever attempt to use Ninjask in any serious way. I will speak of the frustration that is taunt, priority, and encore; of seeing the giant monster you just baton passed to get taken out by a lucky crit; of the burning, vicious hatred that Swampert has inspired in me that will remain until they day I die.

So take my advice: Choose a good lead. Choose a lead that will support your team. Choose a lead that can setup stealth rocks. Choose a lead that doesn't rely on your opponents stupidity. Choose a lead that can accomplish things without getting lucky. Choose a lead that has synergy with the rest of your team. Choose a lead that can kill your opponent's lead. Choose a lead that can do something other than struggle when taunted. Choose a lead that isn't 4x weak to stealth rock. Choose a lead you copied straight from Smogon. Choose a lead that isn't terrible...

But why would I want to do that? I chose not to choose a lead that's good. I chose something else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got speed boost?

Ninjask is a Terrible Lead
A Team Featuring Ninjask, Terrible Lead
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look at that ugly bastard

Ninjask is obviously the focus of my team, with its unique potential to set up a massive baton pass right at the start of the game, which does a good job of setting it apart from the usual leads featured in OU. However, with this great potential comes great risks. A simple taunt or roar could put a stop to your plans, with stealth rocks usually being put up along the way, further reducing the chances of Ninjask of doing anything. And even with a successful baton pass, there are still a lot of ways to stop or disrupt the rest of the setup, as I can attest.

It's because of these risks outweighing the benefits that cause people to dismiss Ninjask as a serious, competitive lead. For the most part, I would agree with them. But as I started playing around with what Ninjask was capable of, the more I realized the depth there was to designing a team around such a fragile pokemon, to augment its capabilities and covering its weaknesses. So what started as a minor distraction for fun became my most worked on and successful team, much to my surprise and dismay.

Unfortunately, for all my hard work and thought, Ninjask remains terrible. Despite that, I continued to win enough times to pad my rating up to the mid 1300's. Astonished by my skill and/or luck (or lack thereof from my opponents), I set 1400 as my goal for my team. I felt that would be a good milestone for my asinine gimmick team, and then I could devote my efforts to a real team, maybe something with Salamence or Scizor.

Now I'm here, looking at a 1402 rating. Thus, I give you my team, with which you may ridicule or perhaps admire:

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probably ridicule

Ninjask
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terrible lead
NARUTO @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 HP // 252 Defense // 4 Sp. Defense
-Protect
-Substitute
-Swords Dance
-Baton Pass

Our fearless leader, star of the show, and very ugly. A few things might jump out immediately about this Ninjask. First, there's no attacks. I figured that using Ninjask is a real all-or-nothing strategy to begin with, and it's been my experience so far that improving our chances of a baton pass is more worthwhile than having a poor back up plan in case they taunt us. Obviously this leaves us very, very vulnerable to Taunt, but most things that carry Taunt wouldn't care if we started firing off boosted X-Scissors anyway.

The plan is to exploit any inaction from an opposing lead and pass speed and attack to the best Pokemon depending on the situation. Now, I'll be detailing the game plan against specific leads later on, after I'm through with the rest of the team, so for now I'll keep it simple here. Use Protect to start off if you're worried about Choice Scarf (or Taunt!). Substitute, because Ninjask is faster than everything, especially with a speed boost if you did protect. Swords Dance if they did something dumb like put up rocks or spikes, or else you'll be sitting at 75% with one or two speed boosts. Usually I keep using substitute until they either spend a turn not breaking it or Liechi activates. Then I might protect to scout, then baton pass at least +1 attack and a ton of speed to something.

There's a few problems that can come up however. While the bulky EVs give this Ninjask a lot more survivability than you would expect, priority attacks still take some finesse to ensure a successful Baton Pass. Most priority moves deal less than 50% (the only exceptions are STAB Ice Shard and Bullet Punch from a banded Scizor, neither OHKOing), so if they use one while you are substituting at 100% you'll end up sitting at around 30% behind a substitute. From here you can substitute again, as their priority move will break the one you're behind, activating Liechi and you sitting behind another substitute. Baton Pass, as they waste their turn breaking your substitute. For the stronger priority moves mentioned, just using baton pass (along with protect to get more speed boosts) will leave mangled, but still alive, hopefully with liechi activating.

If you've been taunted: you're boned. Well, almost. You're guaranteed at least one speed boost with protect, and if you're feeling very lucky you can sub up while they taunt you and hope it wears off before you die. Otherwise, be happy with the 1 boost and a relatively happy Ninjask (they will set up rocks and it will no longer be happy, just so we're clear). Obviously the only way the second option will work is if they are using something that can't simply murder you immediately, so only consider it against stuff without any good attack options (mostly Gliscor, as most lack Stone Edge). Some of this also applies to encore as well, but that shit lasts forever so never think about staying in on it.

There's also Roar and Whirlwind to worry about, as they can mess you up just as much as Taunt and Encore. The trick is to immediately Swords Dance to start with, as most leads that carry these moves put up Stealth Rock first, as they have little to fear from Baton Pass. Stuff like Skarmory might let you set up more as they lay spikes, but it's not worth risking it. Protect their subsequent attempt to phaze, and Baton Pass to Octillery and feel a little silly. Ignore their scorn.

Basically, all goes according to plan and you pass +2 attack (or more!) and a lot of speed to Metagross and then he flips out and kills everyone. However, if you're facing a lead with Focus Sash, they can survive a hit from Metagross then do something to derail the rape train. To break their sash, instead Baton Pass to Tyranitar, and laugh as their Fire Blast does nothing to his rocky hide and Sandstream ensures the Earthquake or Crunch ruins them.

You will be surprised how many leads can do nothing to you. Anything that tries to trick you a scarf gets outsped after a Protect, and Substitute ensures that it fails if they try again. This lets set up all you want, though in general +2 is usually enough and only do +4 if you know you're safe to. Speaking of which, it only takes 3 turns to pass something +2 speed and attack, sometimes with a substitute. Ninjask can and will steal the game very fast if the opponent is unlucky or unprepared.


Metagross
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that's no moon
Dr Manhattan @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 4 HP // 252 Attack // 252 Speed
-Earthquake
-Ice Punch
-Thunderpunch
-Zen Headbutt

This guy does all the heavy lifting. Incredibly strong and durable, Metagross can rip apart a team even with just speed passed to it. If there is attack to go along with that speed, the only comparison that comes to mind is the Death Star. But like the Death Star, it can be defeated by a lucky shot from a moisture farmer.

With +2 speed, you outpace everything slower than Scarf Latias/Gengar, leaving them and Scarf Starmie/Azelf as the only things realistically faster. Speedtying with Scarf Latias isn't the best, but even then +2 speed is a small Baton Pass to receive, relatively. At +3 Metagross outspeeds everything, because there's no way anything is surviving to stat up itself.

The moves are designed to do as much damage to as many Pokemon as possible. Earthquake is solid as always, good coverage and damage. Ice Punch makes a mockery of dragons, along with Zapdos and random grasses and grounds. Thunderpunch is mostly for waters, with only Suicune and very bulky Vaporeons surviving a +2 attack, and nothing with +3. Also the best option against Bronzong, which takes the other attacks easily.

Zen Headbutt is the final piece of the puzzle, being the best option against Rotom, which is a very popular switch-in. Almost always a 2hko (OHKoing scarf rotom with +2 attack), Zen Headbutt makes what was once a horrible matchup into a favourable one, especially with Lum Berry. Zen Headbutt also does a lot of damage neutrally, and the flinch rate has won me a few games, and you're almost always going first. Breaking Machamp in half is a fringe benefit as well.

Lum Berry is very important, as there is still a few Pokemon who might survive your attacks. Metagross' tremendous bulk helps it weather opposing assaults, but an errant T-Wave or being put to sleep stops your sweep cold. Lum Berry protects your Metagross without taking out an important moveslot, so it can afford the minor decrease in damage from not taking using Expert Belt. Probably the biggest application is preventing Will-o-Wisp from Rotom, but it comes in handy frequently, and it's always bad news for your opponent when it does.

Outside of status, there's not much that can stop Metagross once it has been passed to. Switching into a supereffective attack is dicey, but there's good chances Metagross can survive and put the hurt on. Priority attacks can wear it down, but while that happens Metagross is slaying fools left and right. Most likely to succeed is a Roar from Suicune, Vaporeon, or Swampert. There's not a terrible much you can do about this if you can't finish them off before they phaze you, so you have to suck it up. Luckily, Roar is somewhat uncommon, and you'll probably OHKO Suicune and Vaporeon. What to do if your Plan A does get disrupted will get discussed later.


Tyranitar
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fucking sandstream, how does it work
Captain Useless @ Babiri Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 48 HP // 252 Attack // 208 Speed
-Crunch
-Fire Punch
-Ice Punch
-Earthquake

This guy is here for Azelf and Infernape leads. Focus Sash ensures they get at least one hit on your Baton Pass target, which was a major weakness until I hit upon this idea. Basically, they'll be hammering you with Fire Blast, and once Liechi activates you pass to Tyranitar. Fire Blast does nearly no damage to Tyranitar, and the sandstorm breaks their sash the same turn. Then you KO with Crunch or Earthquake.

Still not a foolproof plan, but against unsuspecting opponents it usually goes off without a hitch. But there are many more ways to stop Tyranitar. Priority moves is the biggest one, as Mach Punch is real bad news, along with Scizor. Now, Mach Punch seems like the bigger threat, but Scizor is much, much more prevalent, and even does more damage than Mach Punch with Choice Band. Thus, Babiri Berry. Seems gimmicky, but no lie this dude has killed more than his fair share of Scizor. Especially since Scizor is definitely coming out if you succeed in KOing something.

The EVs ensure you outspeed scarf Heatran, though Earth Power in sandstorm doesn't do a whole lot, though dodging even a resisted explosion is worthwhile. Maxed attack, for obvious reasons, and the change in HP. Crunch, Earthquake and Ice Punch are self-explanatory, and Fire Punch is to kill Scizor.

Tyranitar is not as durable as Metagross, and the lack of Clear Body really hurts as repeated switch-ins by Gyarados and Salamence erode all your hard work. It should be mentioned the reason Metagross is so much better more has to do with Metagross' unique attributes, as few things measure up as well as Tyranitar. Make no mistake, Tyranitar can do a ton of damage with speed and attack boosts, it's just that the ways to stop him are more numerous than Metagross.

Sandstorm itself doesn't do a terrible lot to your team, with only Octillery and Ninjask taking damage from it. While it is annoying if your Ninjask can still be useful, there are also minor benefits to Sandstorm as well, such as removing leftovers recovery and stopping rain if it gets setup.


Octillery
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the dangers of using ninjask: using octillery
RELEASEdaKRAKEN @ Life Orb
Ability: Suction Cups
Nature: Hasty
EVs: 252 Attack // 216 Speed // 40 Sp. Attack
-Waterfall
-Seed Bomb
-Fire Blast
-Ice Beam

Yeah, this is our gameplan against Roar and Whirlwind. I've brainstormed a lot about this problem, and this seems like the best solution. As outlined earlier, basically against something like Swampert, Hippowdon and Skarmory, Ninjask Sword Dances to start as they likely set up rocks (or attack Ninjask, which isn't scary). Protect to get another speed boost, then pass to this and try not to sigh. Luckily, Octillery has decent attack stats, with the speed boosts coming in handy to help keep up with Pokemon worth using. A diverse movepool ensure that your opponent will at least respect your many-armed friend.

Waterfall for good stab boosted by the attack boosts you pass it, Seed Bomb to nail Swampert, Fire Blast to hit Skarmory and Ice Beam to inconvenience any Dragon types, maybe even killing a Salamence. EVs are here to outspeed everything not scarfed, with the necessary EVs to OHKO Hippowdon with Waterfall. Or maybe enough to OHKO Skarmory. I forget the exact details, feel free to look over the math if you think it's suboptimal. Note that neutral Waterfall will deal more damage with attack boosts than super effective Ice Beam or Fire Blast on things not named Skarmory, but most of the time stuff weak to Ice either resists or is also weak to water, so that won't come up too often.

This is by far the weakest Baton Pass target, so don't expect it to 6-0 (though it has occasionally done this for me). If something is threatening a scarfed super effective hit (T-bolt from Latias comes to mind), it's usually best to switch to Gliscor to take the hit and try to get some stat boosts to something more useful. Watch out for trick, though I'd doubt a Latias would since Octillery is not bulky at all and T-bolt will surely KO.

A quick aside: the only other realistic choices to defeat Roar and Whirlwind are Cradily and Mr. Mime. Mr. Mime doesn't even block Whirlwind so I never seriously considered him. Cradily is something I tested for awhile, but getting nailed by Bullet Punch proved way too much of a liability, even with recover. I also tested a pure physical set with Bounce and Rock Blast, and it was as bad as it sounds.


Gliscor
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blah! i vant to suck!
Scizor @ Yache Berry
Ability: Hyper Cutter
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 HP // 252 Speed // 4 Sp. Defense
-Agility
-Swords Dance
-Baton Pass
-Taunt

This may look like just a back up Baton Passer, but it does the job incredibly well, with just the right strengths to make sure a midgame Baton Pass setup succeeds. Bulky defensively, along with two immunities means Gliscor has many opportunities to come in. Once you agility as they switch, nothing can stop you from passing that at the least. Agility also ensures that you will outspeed the opponent so you can stop any phazing he can try. This lets you Swords Dance, and you can Baton Pass to one of your remaining sweepers to finish the match.

Yache Berry makes sure that the only thing OHKOing you is Surf (which is a real concern), giving you enough time to pass your boosts. Hyper Cutter makes the cut over Sand Veil, despite Sand Stream featured on our team. While Sand Veil might let you get a boost you didn't deserve, relying on a 20% chance to not die is suspect, at best. Basically Gliscor can take 3 hits, at most, so the infrequent but very important immunity to intimidate is more important.

There's not a terrible lot to explain about this Pokemon, it has a job that it does well. Always be aware of opportunities to bring him in if you spot the chance, and don't forget that sometimes playing it safe with taunt is more important than getting greedy with the stat boosts. The name I gave is mostly a lame joke, but I have passed it a substitute and got a baffled opponent when his Earthquake missed. Agility helps with the very flimsy disguise.

Heatran
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cheese it!
ShinyMetalAss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
Nature: Naive
EVs: 4 Attack // 252 Speed // 252 Sp. Attack
-Flamethrower
-Earth Power
-Hidden Power: Electric
-Explosion

Heatran plays amazing clean up duties. A relic from when I had many more fire weaknesses, he has proved useful time and time again, revenge killing whoever managed to bring one of my monsters down and finishing off weakened teams. While the Choice Scarf is nothing unique or fancy, it complements my team very well. The fact that many of Heatrans counters will be worn down trying to stop either Metagross or Tyranitar along with the fact that this team has a lot of expendable Pokemon to sacrifice to reset the Choice Scarf means that the foe will be hard pressed to stop what is already a fearsome threat.

The only thing that sets this Heatran apart is the HP: Electric. It's fairly obvious to see a major bulky water weakness in my team, and while HP: Electric fails to hit Swampert, it can polish off a weakened Suicune or Vaporeon before they have a chance to recover. Nailing Gyarados is also important, as I have little options once it gets a Dragon Dance in. Note that ScarfTran only outspeeds +1 Gyarados who are neutral natured, so even then Gyarados can rampage if it's the rarer Jolly variant.

Threat List

Aerodactyl: Definitely groan inducing. Protect to start, as Ninjask doesn't have the ev investment to be faster without a speed boost. Which is irrelevant anyway, as he'll likely taunt. From there, Metagross will definitely take it out, but it will be very weak. Octillery can also function, but regardless one of your sweepers will be hurt, best case scenario. Try to fit in a Baton Pass later on, hopefully after Aerodactyl's dead, though after an agility Gliscor can Taunt it.

Azelf: Protect to start, as giving up a turn is worth dodging a Trick. Start substituting, and Swords Dance if you get the chance. Likely it will keep firing Flamethrowers, Psychics and maybe even Explosion at you, let Liechi activate (unless you got a Swords Dance early and would prefer a Ninjask that can survive rocks once) and pass to Tyranitar. Azelf does little damage to T-tar, and T-tar gets the easy KO with Crunch.

Bronzong: Not great. Hope it spends a turn Stealth Rock, though Reflect isn't good news. It will fire Gyro Balls at you, and eventually you'll pass to Metagross, as Octillery's Fire Blast doesn't do nearly enough (neither does Thunderpunch but oh well). Metagross probably eats it to Earthquake but sometimes you get enough attack to survive. Don't pass to T-tar as Gyro Ball will kill it despite Babiri Berry.

Dragonite: Start substituting. Either it Extremespeeds and gets you low, or it does a slower attack and leaves you at 75%. Either way you can pass at least speed to something, which can get the KO with Ice Punch.

Empoleon: Again, substitute until you get too low to dodge an Aqua Jet, pass to Metagross and likely die because of Focus Sash. Watch out for Torrented Aqua Jet. An awkward lead to play around.

Forretress: Hope it starts setting up instead of Gyro Balling you. Regardless, get speed and at least +1 attack to something, even with high speed Gyro Ball does nothing to Metagross.

Gliscor: The only lead I'd suggest maybe staying in and waiting out Taunt for. Get under a substitute, get taunted, try to wait it out because Stone Edge is very rare on lead Gliscor. 2-3 turns unless it immediately switches to something else after you get taunted, and you can always switch out if things get too hairy.

Heatran: Roar is especially rare on leadtran, so just ensure that you pass enough attack to KO with EQ through his Shuca berry. Might have to pass to T-tar if he keeps hitting you with Flamethrower (likely).

Hippowdon: Swords Dance, Protect, Baton Pass to Octillery. Flimsy plan at the best of times, but not much else you can do.

Infernape: Same plan as Azelf, though careful about getting too low on HP as he may start using Close Combat to hit your switch. Switch early if you get a Swords Dance, and consider doing it anyway once you get a few speed boosts. You can substitute at the start of this fight, as Fake Out does something like 12% and can be safely ignored.

Jirachi: Whether it's scarfed or not, this is great set up bait. Get some attack and speed to Metagross (or T-tar if it's locked into Fire Punch) and you're golden.

Machamp: Good matchup without Encore, nightmare if he has it. It's stuck using something other than DynamicPunch, so you can get speed and attack to Metagross, and KO with Zen Headbutt. If you get Encored, try to get Metagross in anyway as Zen Headbutt will do a ton of damage regardless.

Mamoswine: Substitute, since Ice Shard leaves you with enough health. Sometimes you get it up if they decide to Stealth Rock. Stat up if you can, consider passing to T-tar for Fire Punch.

Metagross: Great setup bait if you know what you're doing. Don't get low enough to die to Bullet Punch, and Swords Dance if they SR or miss a Meteor Mash.

Ninjask: Consider switching to Gliscor immediately, as Taunt will ruin his day as much as it ruins yours, perhaps even worse if they doing an even dumber Baton Pass plan.

Roserade: Protect to start in case they trick, otherwise you can setup relatively easy, as Toxic Spikes can be somewhat ignored and you can't really stop them anyway.

Skarmory: Always assume they'll Whirlwind. Same plan as Hippowdon, use Fire Blast to scare it away.

Smeargle: Protect to dodge the trick, try to set up. Consider passing to Gliscor if you get a sub up, as it's not impossible they're trying to do a Baton Pass chain.

Swampert: The reason Octillery is on your team. Swords Dance, Protect, Baton Pass. Even if they start using Ice Beam, always assume they can Roar.

Tyranitar: Focus Sash with Counter will mean that your Metagross will die. Hope he doesn't have it and try to set up.

Weavile: Protect to dodge whatever they're trying to do to you, then probably Baton Pass immediately. It can't do much to Metagross, or T-tar if it used Fake Out.

Most of these seem like bad matchups. They mostly are. But don't forget that sometimes you just win immediately and 6-0 them.

The most important thing to understand is that things will go wrong, often in the worst way. Just keep a cool head, as sometimes you get that hail mary pass from Gliscor and good things happen. Or suddenly your opponent has nothing that can take a hit from Heatran.
 
i really like the idea of all or nothing; the risk vs. reward makes this seem like a very fun playstyle

it seems to me that you might have a mixmence and mixape weakness, though it isnt very apparent. Both of these could take out 3-4 of your pokes if you aren't careful

i also see a sorta big Mamoswine weakness. His Ice Fang/Ice Shard destroys glis, Earthquake kills gross, ran and TTar which means you're stuck BPing to octillary, and that may force you into a position you don't want to be in. Yea Ran and TTar have some super effective moves, but i dont think it would be enough to KO it

yeaa that's all i can think of, but i still love the team concept
 
personlly i think you should run an attack over protect or subsertuite casuse if your taunted you have to swicth out and they will most likly set up stealth rock
 
Love that entertaining little composition you whipped up in the OP. It's both a shame and a surprise this topic hasn't received any attention, considering the propensity for internet-dwellers to flock to negativity.

But anyway, I'm glad you thought of including Octillery, since I sure in the hell wouldn't have. Up until now, I thought the only Pokemon with Suction Cups was Cradily.

I plan on trying this team myself and editing this post with a verdict later.
 
you use really far-fected pokémon that are really random, but actually make a good team.

good job is all I have to say.
 
Bah! My last post ran into an error....

Gonna quickly summarize what I said.

Consider running Electrode as a lead. It can Taunt other leads to stop SR and then paralyze them, allowing Ninjask to come in on a paralyzed opponent and get a SD if they become fully paralyzed. Electrode also can break sashes. BP teams don't need as many sweepers as you have. And with Electrode's help, you won't need Tyranitar for Azelf and Infernape leads.

Also consider running an Umbreon with Mean Look Yawn Protect BP @ chople berry.
It can survive almost any attack and yawn the opponent, protecting next turn, allowing Gliscor or Ninjask in on a sleeping opponent.

Liked the concept, Ninjask really needs more love. It's bulkier than many think when EV'ed correctly. I hate how some analysis sets run 252 speed. What the hell would you need to outrun?? Opposing scarf Electrode??
 
Gave this team a proper test trial yesterday, despite some of the ridicule and criticism I've received from other players. It's actually not bad at all, but it really does highlight some of the inherent problems with not just Ninjask, but teams based on Baton Passing themselves: they're not consistent.

Traditional methods of play have been known for maximizing on coverage and prediction, but Baton Passing is the only method of play that requires it, or else there's absolutely no chance for you to win. Most of my matches have been decided by a single mistake or misprediction, and moreso than any other playstyle, you have to perfect your technique in order to win.

Any idiot can just slap Scizor onto their team and spam Uturns and Bullet Punches, but this kind of strategy requires some real thinking in order to work against a decent opponent. I know this isn't exactly leaderboard material, but I commend you for having the balls to try it, and furthermore, concoct a winning formula. I truly believe this is Baton Passing at its finest.
 
Well gee, sorry for trying to give this thread a little more well-deserved attention, Haunter. <__<

In any case, since friendly comments / compliments apparently aren't allowed even though there's no mention of that in the rules (that I could find), I instead have this to say... I think the team is very well-made, however, there's only one small thing I don't understand in here...

Why, on Metagross, would you have Zen Headbutt over Meteor Mash? MM is a Steel-type sweeper's best friend with its occasional chance of an Attack boost, and if you're going to pick a STAB option with slightly iffy accuracy, I'd think Mash would be the way to go. Rotom is beaten nearly as soundly by Ice Punch as it is by ZH, plus if you get the Attack boost from Mash on Rotom's switchin or whatever, it's just that much easier to KO with Ice Punch.

In any case, testing this out to see how right or (more likely) wrong I am. As much as I love the team, I probably won't use it all that much because it'd feel like stealing your child. In any case, great job, and this is seriously manly.
 
Metagross needs ZH for Rotom and Swampert, Ice Punch does laughable damage to both of them. Defensive Rotom-A doesn't get 2HKO'ed by +2 Ice Punch. Swampert takes only around 37%.
 
Okay, I played around with this team for a while yesterday, and I'm really loving it... I had a lot of fun playing it, and I was especially impressed by Octillery's performance, it did exactly what it was supposed to without any serious problems when it was set up properly.

I would say that the weakest player on this team is probabl Heatran. If bulky Water Pokemon give this team so much trouble, (and they do, I can see what you mean) then Scarf Magnezone with HP Fire is probably a better choice, especially since his ability is particularly conducive to revenge-killing, but also because he has great synergy with Ninjask and Gliscor, what with all the Earthquakes he'll be attracting (same as Heatran), and plus, Zone is bulkier than Heatran (right?). I basically see him as being Heatran, but better, especially since you don't really need him to absorb all that Fire anymore-- Tyranitar is better for that, like you said. I've yet to test this for sure, but I wanted to throw it out there-- Scarf Magnezone over Scarf Heatran is probably (but maybe not) a good idea.]

-EDIT- Oh, also: I ALWAYS Substitute against things like Skarmory and Swampert when they SR. After the Protected Roar activates second speed boost, I pass to Octillery, just like you said-- no +2 Attack, but Sub intact. Swampert dies to one Seed Bomb and Skarmory to two Fire Blasts anyway, and that just gives Octy some extra protection, which I found I preferred to the boosted Attack (since Octy goes mixed anyway). Personal preference and a minor tactical nitpick, but I thought I'd throw that out there too.
 
This is certainly an interesting team that I think I'll try out some time this week. I'm really surprised people don't Baton Pass to Octillery more since it has better Atk and SpAtk than Cradilly, a larger movepool, and resistance to Bullet Punch. I always thought running Meteor Mash/Earthquake/ThunderPunch/Zen Headbutt was best for a Baton Pass receiving Metagross since it can OHKO Zapdos and Gliscor with Zen Headbutt and Meateor Mash, respectively, after SR and at +2 Atk. But I guess if you're not running LO or SR, you kind of need Ice Punch. I'll be sure to try out other cleaners, too.
 
Great RMT! It was super enjoyable to read. Your usage of a concession and humor in your RMT really helped you take the cake. Your sporting of an actual decent team didn't hurt your case either. Not running Meteor Mash on Gross is actually a novel idea. While at first when looking at coverage and power alone MM heavily outclasses Zen Headbutt, the latter is what you really need for Gross to bring this sweep home. This is a great team overall due to its immense flexibility in play.

The only problem I see is your revenge killing Heatran. Heatran does not seem to cover your team too well but I will concede it does its job to some extent for the pure fact that I don't have a solid replacement for you.
 
Great RMT! It was super enjoyable to read. Your usage of a concession and humor in your RMT really helped you take the cake. Your sporting of an actual decent team didn't hurt your case either. Not running Meteor Mash on Gross is actually a novel idea. While at first when looking at coverage and power alone MM heavily outclasses Zen Headbutt, the latter is what you really need for Gross to bring this sweep home. This is a great team overall due to its immense flexibility in play.
As was said earlier in the thread, Zen Headbutt is needed over MM to score KOs on Swampert and Rotom, who are otherwise not KO'd fast enough with Earthquake or Ice Punch. Please, people, read through the thread's comments before posting identical comments of your own.

This team in particular happens to be exceptionally well-crafted, such that the only thing I can find fault with is Heatran... everyone else is pretty damn solid.

And on the note of Heatran...
The only problem I see is your revenge killing Heatran. Heatran does not seem to cover your team too well but I will concede it does its job to some extent for the pure fact that I don't have a solid replacement for you.
*ahem*
I would say that the weakest player on this team is probably Heatran. If bulky Water Pokemon give this team so much trouble, then Scarf Magnezone with HP Fire is probably a better choice,
So to make it a little easier to read / see, here's the set I'm suggesting over Heatran:

462.png

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
ability: Magnet Pull
nature: Naive
- Thunderbolt
- HP Fire
- Flash Cannon
- Explosion
It's basically the same in terms of coverage, but Steel STAB over Earth Power and HP swapped with STAB. Gonna be hitting those pesky bulky Waters harder and can blow up on Blissey's fatass, same as Heatran can.

JustFo'Fun: Alternate nicknames.
Ninjask - The Pacifist
Gliscor - Gligar Man
Metagross - same
Tyranitar - same
Octillery - Dr. Octagonapus
Heatran - Flame Boy
or
Magnezone - Magneto

Superhero death squad, olol.
 
Hello, I'll start by saying that I really appreciate the thought process that went into the development of this Baton Pass team. It shows insight into both the metagame and the massive threats that come up against BP teams. Well done! Let me make some suggestions that will help your team.
Just pointing out that Ninjask is not necessarily a terrible lead - it's just a very predictable one. Many of the common leads, naturally, carry Taunt or Roar and can mess up your plans early on. Furthermore, things like Skarmory, Suicune, and Vaporeon can phaze you at a whim. You know all of this, though. Running a baton pass team is tough, as you've learned, but trust me when I say that to underestimate a well-made one as a gimmick is simply bad form.
That said, onto the rate.

Your team has massive problems with bulky water-type Pokemon, in particular those that are very defensive like Suicune. Heatran can't penetrate it even with HPElectric (3HKO) and only can if it explodes, Metagross' +2 Thunderpunch won't even kill it (77.7% - 91.6%), Gliscor and TTar can't break it, Octillery's STAB option is resisted, etc.

That said, the weakest link in your team is easily your Heatran. It provides redundant coverage at best, compounds the ground and water weakness of your team, and is even worse - choice locked. the best solution to this problem and to round out the general theme of your team is to replace Heatran with something that accomplishes all of the things your team needs at once. (ie. Not Magnezone)

Try this:

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
water.gif
Hydro Pump
electric.gif
Thunderbolt
normal.gif
Rapid Spin /
normal.gif
Recover
ice.gif
Ice Beam /
normal.gif
Recover

This accomplishes many things for your team that neither Heatran nor Magnezone will. Firstly, it is not choice-locked, so it can adjust itself to sweep the late game depending on what the opponent has left. Secondly, because of its offensive power and typing, it will scare off opposing spinblockers, giving you a much needed chance to get rid of SR that murders your Ninjask and might end up giving it another chance to send off those Liechi Berry and Speed boosts. In the last slot, Recover gives it some longevity and backup insurance against things like Infernape and opposing Heatran. However, Ice Beam rounds out its coverage and gives you an obscenely effective sweeper in the end-game - made more so by the fact that it outspeeds the entire metagame before setup (except opposing scarf Starmies or swift swimmers) and hits hard. Try both of the last moves if you want, though Ice Beam seems to fit your team better since Starmie should usually be a cleaner. If you don't really care for Ninjask being obliterated by rocks and don't seem to want to remove Spikes/TSpikes, you can also try Recover over Rapid Spin.

As if it couldn't get better, Starmie's typing and good special defense also gives you something big-time with which to scare off opposing Vaporeon and Suicune while also murdering Skarmory and Gyarados (midgame taunters) on the spot as they come in.

If you take this suggestion and use Starmie, you can probably afford to give Gliscor Leftovers over its Yache Berry. This will give it a lasting chance to survive. Also, since you're running Tyranitar, use Sand Veil! The chance of that opposing attack missing as you Taunt them is enormous. I recommend the following set:

Gliscor @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
Nature: Timid
psychic.gif
Agility
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Swords Dance
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Taunt
normal.gif
Baton Pass

Timid lets it take less confusion damage if it somehow gets inflicted over the match. The Speed EVs let it outspeed Adamant Gyarados before Agility and Timid Scarf Gengar afterwards. The SpD EVs will cushion it taking those special attacks it fears, and the HP goes without saying. I kept it with Agility because I like the Scizor trick (even though it says when you switch in that it's a Gliscor). :P

Anyways, those are my most prevalent suggestions. Keep up the good work and good luck with your team! :)
 
Well I've used this team for a bit and while it's not exactly consistant, it is a lot of fun beating your opponent with a +3/+3 Metagross/Tyranitar/Octillery. I'm using the Starmie Risising Dusk suggested with Ice Beam and Recover because usually Ninjask either has atleast 75% health the first time it passes or I pass +3 Attack to Metagross and it sweeps. That said, Choice Scarf Rotom-A and Latias can completely rape this team if no one's set up and Crocune can set up on Starmie and sweep without breaking a sweat. Also, Phazers can force me to Baton Pass to Octillery with only +2 Spe and then Choice Scarfers can revenge kill it. This is why I think using Scarf Starmie will be better than using the Non Choice Sweeper because it can outspeed just about anything and can use Trick to stop Crocune. I haven't tried it myself but I might another time. All in all, this is an incredibilly fun team to use.

Edit: Also, I just remembered that I haven't found Tyranitar too useful because Azelf useally either Taunts the first turn so I can only get one speed boost or it switches right to phazer after using SR and I have to go to Octillery. I'm not really sure what could go in it's place but something with a priority move like Scizor could be useful.

Edit2: I keep forgetting to type things. I ran into a Gyrados phazer at one point and Octillery really couldn't do much to it since Seed Bomb only hit it nuetral so you could consider running Charge Beam over Ice Beam to take it out if you don't mind being walled by Dragons.
 
ScarfNape is a very problem for your team, Ninjask is a TERRIBLE LEAD and if your opponent have a phazer is useless.

You can try Hiddenpower GRASS > HP electric on heatran because you can have a problem with Mixpert.

Tyranitar is so orrible...try the scarfer or the dragondancer.

You can try also scarfgroos for surprise you opponent.

Good luck.
 
ScarfNape is a very problem for your team, Ninjask is a TERRIBLE LEAD and if your opponent have a phazer is useless.
Scarf Nape is so rare and underwhelming that it's not even worth considering as a legitimate threat, not to mention Jask and Gliscor set up on it so hard.

You probably didn't read the entire RMT (or at all), so let me help you out:

OP said:
Octillery
Ability: Suction Cups
Smogon said:
Roar and Whirlwind cannot make this Pokémon switch.
OP said:
Yeah, this is our gameplan against Roar and Whirlwind.

You should really take the time to read these posts before offering any from of criticism, constructive or otherwise.

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
ability: Magnet Pull
nature: Naive
- Thunderbolt
- HP Fire
- Flash Cannon
- Explosion
It's basically the same in terms of coverage, but Steel STAB over Earth Power and HP swapped with STAB. Gonna be hitting those pesky bulky Waters harder and can blow up on Blissey's fatass, same as Heatran can.
It's not fast enough. Scarfzone can't revenge base 115s and doesn't help in stopping Gyarados. Plus, even Blissey will laugh at an Explosion from a Timid nature and 70 base att (if you manage to get her, that is).
 
I just wanted to say that this team is EXTRAORDINARILY fun to use, as it is extremely satisfying to see the opponents team fall like dominoes under the gross or to see roar and Whirlwind attempts fail under the likes of Octillery. Very well done!
 
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