NFE Pokemon in UU

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Darkflagrance said:
Consider that some now are arguing that Deoxys-S should have been allowed in the beginning of DP so that we would have quickly known its brokenness or not.
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Alternatively you could consider the people arguing that there are now too many pokemon and are calling for a metagame/s with reduced numbers of pokemon ... NFE's provide a convenient and obvious place to begin culling.


Why not include NFE's in UU as early as possible to examine their impact on the metagame?
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Were there actually a UU metagame to speak of I might agree, however at present the "UU metagame" is limited to an extremely small number of players. Therefore at present one of the more immediate goals should, IMHO, be to try and encourage more people to play UU.

From speaking to people on Shoddy battle I am conscious that the size of the UU tier is one of the factors that puts people off playing it, as, for whatever reason, they are reluctant to learn the potential movesets and strategies for 100+ pokemon. Is it worth discouraging them further so as to test the impact of pokemon that may or may not have any impact/see any use?

Manageability means that you feel that you currently can't keep track of all the threats in UU? You might be able to have this problem when the upper edge of UU overlaps greatly with BL as it does now, but how can one be confused as to what an NFE is?
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Why is managability simply limited to the threats? At this stage all of the pokemon require a degree of monitoring so as to allow for current, relavent analysis.

I'm confused as to what you meant by the bolded section.
You suggested that the blanket ban was extreme and unneeded, I suggested that the sheer number of NFE's might be a significabt factor.

However if you don't feel that I understand the term NFE perhaps you could offer your understanding of what the term means to you and we can go from there ...

*WIP*
 
I think NFEs should be treated just like normal Pokemon, and if they're too good for UU, they become BL. I don't really like the idea of letting whether a Pokemon evolves or not affect where it is positioned in the tier lists. The fact that Rhydon, Dusclops, Shelgon, Magneton, Chansey, etc. evolve has absolutely no affect on their ability to battle. If Shelgon didn't evolve into Salamence, I can guarantee it would get more usage than it does currently. And Shelgon shouldn't be left out of the UU list if it is UU just because it evolves. We still see people complain about having Scyther, Porygon 2, etc. on the lists, and I simply cannot see why.
 
Shiny Oddish said:
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Were there actually a UU metagame to speak of I might agree, however at present the "UU metagame" is limited to an extremely small number of players. Therefore at present one of the more immediate goals should, IMHO, be to try and encourage more people to play UU.

From speaking to people on Shoddy battle I am conscious that the size of the UU tier is one of the factors that puts people off playing it, as, for whatever reason, they are reluctant to learn the potential movesets and strategies for 100+ pokemon. Is it worth discouraging them further so as to test the impact of pokemon that may or may not have any impact/see any use?
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Although UU is so large, it actually contains less pokemon than OU in terms of scope. Why is that? Because OU allows more than UU, but people only consider the top of OU when making threatlists.

There was a post by Sanjay suggesting that we put NFE's in NU (save the broken ones haunter kadabra sneasel chansey hippo snowver dusclops rhydon etc). If your objection against UU is such, then perhaps that could resolve my desire to legalize all UU's and your fear of broadening the metagame. If most UU's entered NU, they would be legal in UU but would not increase the bounds of UU for new players - how many normal OU players bother to learn about the intricacies and unique threats of UU?

In the same manner, less useful UU's could be dumped by charts of usage in NU and the "UU game" would decrease in scope to become visibly something like OU. If people care about NU losing balance we could create a faux tier a la Borderline. If your worry is really size, there are ways to incorporate UU's in general without visibly increasing the size of UU.
 
I wish we could argue about Snover at least as an accepted NFE. I mean c'mon, at one time ABOMASNOW was UU. >_>; But seriously don't think I want to discuss about it here, as it would cause much disruption already.

Anyways, I agree with the majority of guidelines here. Even if we were to include Pokemon that evolved in their same generation (i.e. Staryu -> Starmie. Not an example: Onix -> Steelix), they could be acceptable in some sort of guidelines.

A rough example: Larvitar. Take note, he has no "real" special movepool, still has Stone Edge + Earthquake, a Ground-typing instead of Dark from Tyranitar. The final is what also helps set him apart: Guts. With Guts, he can step into Will-O-Wisps and Toxic attempts and still put a world of hurt. Their stat distrobution is different too, etc.

I'm not saying that Larvitar SHOULD be accepted as an NFE, but it has different guidelines from its fully evolved form, Tyranitar. Pokemon like Staryu and Charmeleon just run similair and would be "outclassed", if you will, by their fully evolved forms.

On the contrary, we should discuss a bit more on Gligar. Even in Advance he was a staple to UU teams. In D/P he could play as a decent "wall" if the player wants to. But what still puts him away from Gliscor is one thing: Gliscor rarely ever uses a Swords Dance set. Usually Gliscor is attempting to wall things, however if Gliscor was used more as a Swords Dancer, then I would understand that Gligar would be "OU-lite.

Was there ever a discussion on Murkrow as an NFE? His higher Speed puts him in a different situation than of Honchkrow's, and the lack of Night Slash kills his Super Luck try-out. Not that Honchkrow Plots much, but Murkrow lacks that too. 85 Attack and Special Attack isn't really game-breaking, so it's not like it would "rape" everything either. Just throwing this one out to discuss.
 
I don't think those of us at the two ends of the spectrum are ever going to reach an agreement that satisfies the other, so how about we try and reach some sort of compromise ...

Why don't we see whether it is possible to incorporate more NFE's without necessarily allowing all 231 ...

Lets start by discussing potential criteria for inclusion/exclusion, suggesting why it might be useful ...

I would begin by excluding all NFE's whose fully evolved forms are UU/NU themselves, unless the NFE was significantly different from their fully evolved form (type/ability etc.)

Would this be satisfactory?
 
Hmm... can i give a suggestion here? First, this only involves NFEs which are just souped-down from the evolutions.

If fully evolved form is OU, the NFE form of that pokemon is OU. If the fully evolved form is BL, the NFE forum of that pokemon is BL. Repeat for UU and NU.

This doesn't involve pokemons like Pikachu/Trapinch /Clamperl because they're different from their evolved forms. But let's say we have Ampharos in UU. Then, we may use Flaffy in UU. However, we're not allowed to use, say Sneasel, because their evolved form is OU.
 
Though the only problem I see is is that we would have to define what a souped-down evolution would be, and that could give the problems of arguing about Pokemon like Gligar and Gliscor. I could agree on ShinyOddish's idea though, and somewhat on Ae Sakuras as well.

So in ShinyOddish's case, we can't use Drowzee because Hypno is UU, and in Ae's case, we can use Chansey, but she could be only used in OU.
 
Colonel M said:
Though the only problem I see is is that we would have to define what a souped-down evolution would be, and that could give the problems of arguing about Pokemon like Gligar and Gliscor. I could agree on ShinyOddish's idea though, and somewhat on Ae Sakuras as well.

So in ShinyOddish's case, we can't use Drowzee because Hypno is UU, and in Ae's case, we can use Chansey, but she could be only used in OU.
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As far as i remember, gligar has lesser in every stat, has the same typing, has the same trait. Thus, it should be a souped-down.
 
Right, but the reason it would spark an argument is the whole "but it was used in UU and such". Though seriously, those two used as guidelines for NFEs are good. >_>;

(I know they're both the same however).
 
Ae Sakura
If fully evolved form is OU, the NFE form of that pokemon is OU. If the fully evolved form is BL, the NFE forum of that pokemon is BL. Repeat for UU and NU.
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What would the point be though? If Ampharos is UU what is the point of allowing Flaffy when anything it can do Ampharos does better? It just seems like unnecessary duplication to me ...

So in ShinyOddish's case, we can't use Drowzee because Hypno is UU, and in Ae's case, we can use Chansey, but she could be only used in OU.
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Actually my last point was offered as a starting point for discussion, rather than a full case a such ...
 
Instead of just discussing one method at a time, it may be better to try to look at everything at once.

Here is a summary of all the methods mentioned already.

- Limit all NFEs to the same tier
- Only OU and BL NFEs, tier only those NFEs

The NFE fufills one of these roles
- Has a greater value than its evolution in one or more stats
- Has a different dual typing than its evolution
- Uses a unique item
- Balances the UU metagame
- Different trait(s) than its evolution
- Not the first level of a three level pokemon (ex: remove Chimchar, keep Monferno)
- Has Summed Stat Total greater than X
- Single type vs. double typed evolution (ex: Fire vs. Fire/Flying)
- Was there in Advance
- In a prior generation, it was the fully evolved form
- Used in a different way than their evolved form
- It doesn't need a role: include everything
 
Why is it that anyone feels that the UU game should be limited at all? The reasons I've seen before are that it's too much for people to remember and that it (seems to?) hurt the aesthetic sensibilities of individuals.

If these are the objections to including NFE's, then we could easily sidestep most of them by shunting most of then into NU.

Most people want to include NFE's in UU that are different. I also want to include those that may not fit the criteria, in short effectively allowing all NFE's that do not unbalance UU to be in UU. However, I plan to include them in NU until NU develops as a new metagame.

Speaking just of the NFE's that are almost duplicates of their evolved forms (whatever the criteria is for defining "duplicates") if they are not unique, no one needs to learn a new set of movesets for them. Also, only players who want to use gimmick teams will use them competively, most likely. Although there seem to be those here who want to discriminate against these gimmick teams, I am of the view that they should be included. I imagine that a team that counters an evolved form must be easily able to counter the same pokemon on half-strength.

So, since there is no problem with accepting NFE's that are "different," and NFE's that are "not different" do not unbalance the metagame and may pose a detriment to their teams, why not allow them all? No matter where the line is drawn between "different" and "not different" they all should be passable.
 
Why is it that anyone feels that the UU game should be limited at all? The reasons I've seen before are that it's too much for people to remember and that it (seems to?) hurt the aesthetic sensibilities of individuals.
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If you want another reason from what I understand of Smogon's philosophy, it has always been to promote competitive battling ... the majority of NFE's are simply not that competitive ...

*sigh* This is going nowehere, you seem unwilling to compromise your vision, I simply can't offer my support to it ... anyway I think its safe to say I've more than expressed my opinion on this, so I'm done with this discussion until a few of the big names have shared their thoughts.
 
Shiny Oddish said:
If you want another reason from what I understand of Smogon's philosophy, it has always been to promote competitive battling ... the majority of NFE's are simply not that competitive ...
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It's not Smogon's responsibility to tell players whether or not some pokemon are too weak or pointless for them to use, only that the pokemon is so powerful that it unbalances the metagame. Smogon doesn't ban NU from use in BL and higher battles, so why ban NFE's based on subjective (or even objective) "weakness"?

Also...

Is it possible for someone in charge of this to announce that Smogon will either grant approval of NFE's in UU or will test NFE's in UU?
 
I would allow different NFE Pokemon in different Tiers. Look at Porygon2, Dusclops, Scyther and Sneasel for example. They outclass the other NFE Pokemon with more superior stats and the ability to take on OU Pokemon. Whereas others like Pikachu and Metang should be in UU, while even less superior ones in NU.
 
I don't know if this topic has already been tackled, but I wanted to arise the issue of Phione, currently our "tierless" Pokémon.

Phione has Base 80 Stats across the board, which means all of its stats are just below average (if average is still 85). It shares Hydration with Dewgong. Dewgong outclasses it in defense while Phione outclasses Dewgong in attack. Dewgong is a better abuser of Hydration because of higher HP and higher defenses. However, Phione is a better Hydration Sweeper because of higher speed and higher attacks. Phione's letdown is that it doesn't get Tail Glow, which is Manaphy's ticket to übers. So, should Phione play in UU? Technically, allowing Phione won't allow UU to become "OU-lite" since Manaphy is über.

While Phione is similar to Manaphy, it's the same as comparing Luxray/Manectric to Jolteon. Phione has less offensive capabilities (4 including HP on the special side of the spectrum and 5 on the physical side) which makes it very, very pridictable. Granted, no Pokémon resists Surf, Ice Beam, Grass Knot and HP but it won't be dealing out much damage without specs and then you can easily wall it.

And, Phione is NFE. Just throwing that out there.
 
Deck Knight said:
Here is the almighty exhaustive list of NFEs tha would actually warrant discussion, mostly because they either were previously fully evolved (even if it was back in RBY) or they have the stats/movepool to work competently in UU:

RBY Origin:
Pikachu
Golbat
Kadabra
Magneton
Haunter
Cubone
Lickitung
Rhydon
Scyther
Electabuzz
Magmar
Tangela
Seadra
Chansey

GSC origin:
Togetic
Piloswine
Aipom
Yanma
Murkrow
Misdreavus
Sneasel
Gligar
Porygon2

RSE origin:
Nosepass
Trapinch
Dusclops
Clamperl

DP origin:
Cranidos

You can split hairs if you like, but basically this is a listing of pokemon with an item like Light Ball or Thick Club, Previously fully evolved pokemon, or pokemon that have the speed and/or movepool attack power and type to sweep.
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Chansey is NOT UU. It is just a blissey with slightly less Defense and Special Attack. With Seismic Toss and Bold Nature + 252 EV in HP and Defense, she tanks too well for UU.

Dusclops tanks too much for UU. He's okay for BL. I've tested him.

Kadabra: 120 Special Attack, 105 Speed. BL: MAYBE, UU? No.

Haunter: 115 Special attack, 95 Speed. Still too good for UU.

Porygon-2: A Tracer with HIGHER Defense and S.Defense than Porygon-Z. He's already BL.

Sneasel: Fair game for BL. He's in the same boat as Kadabra and Haunter.

Other than them I think the rest work well in UU.

Also, add Phione to UU.
 
As I see it, because neither side of the argument has been discredited, NFE's are usable in UU within reasonable limits (I.E. no Chansey) - at least, that's how I will be playing.
 
what about eevee? eevee is the only Pokémon to have Adabtability other than porygon-Z, and especially makes a decorative appearance in eeveelution teams.

But compare base stat with eevee and porygon-Z, just to find out.
 
I thought that the UU metagame, like OU, has some sort of "spirit" associated with its metagame and the people who started it.

OU attempts to create the most balanced pokemon enviroment while simultaneously allowing the most pokemon available for competitive play.

UU attempts to have the same goal as OU except with all the OU already banned. I consider BL to UU as Ubers is to OU.

If people hate pre-evos so bad, then they should probably just make another metagame. Then you'll get NU. This means NU needs its own BL tier to separate pokemon that unbalance its metagame.

I always thought poeple played UU to get away from OU. If UU becomes too much like OU, shouldnt they just go play NU? That metagame has the least likelihood of being anything resembling OU.
 
Does it matter? They are pre-evo's anyway. No war has been caused yet because of somebody using Dusclops in UU.
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You've obviously never had to try taking Dusclops or Chansey out with a UU team ... it completely drains any fun out of the game, and turns it into some OU stall fest.

I always thought poeple played UU to get away from OU. If UU becomes too much like OU, shouldnt they just go play NU?
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When you can sit for hours on end waiting for a UU match on Shoddy, what chance have you got of getting an NU match?
 
I think the best solution here is to allow NFE's in general, but ban NFE's who would have an adverse effect on the metagame, either because they encourage OU-lite (Hippopotas, Snover), or because they're just too damn powerful (Dusclops, Chansey).

The main reason people are pushing to ban all NFE's is as a catch all solution to disallow the few Pokemon that they really don't approve of. It may take a while to debate, and could be difficult to implement, but it seems like the best all-round solution.
 
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