NFE NFE Metagame Discussion

[Darth]

Hey, I wanted to drop a couple of my thoughts on Dynamax, and why I ultimately believe it should go soon.

Dynamax and Choice Items
There are two opportunity costs of using a Choice Item in NFE, you’re giving up Eviolite which is a powerful defensive tool and you’re giving up your ability to switch moves. Dynamax allows Choiced Pokemon to do are switch moves, use moves which have extremely powerful secondary effects and increase the health of the Pokemon.

Dynamax gives the flexibility to sets such as Banded Sneasel, Specs Galarian Mr Mime (G-Mime) and Scarf Haunter to not just be effective Revenge Killers or Wallbreakers, but gives them the additional agency to become effective sweepers as they are all able to increase the power of their moves due to Max Attacks. Not only that but Dynamax also gives added bulk essentially filling the the two main drawbacks of using an Choiced Item.

Dynamax’s interaction with Choice Items is something which I think limits skill expression and partially removes the risk of using Choice Items in the first place. Probability management is part of the game and I think Dynamax takes some of that away as more often than not Dynamax favours the more proactive player of the two. I think this point is often overlooked as most people like to tunnel in on the combination of Eviolite and Dynamax on bulky sweepers being very powerful, but Dynamax is extremely flexible and its synergy with most items in the game make it unhealthily polarising in the NFE tier.

Dynamax and Teambuilding
Teambuilding has become significantly more restrictive with the introduction of Dynamax for two main reasons, Dynamax is an extremely powerful offensive tool and therefore nearly all Pokemon are unable to check a Dynamax Pokemon without also using Dynamax. This forces the metagame to revolve around Dynamax, the best Dynamax abusers and the best Dynamax “checks”. Whilst on paper this would almost always result in a Dynamax one for one trade, Dynamax has shown to be very favoured towards Pokemon with setup moves and benefit proactive play more than reactive play. The nature of Dynamax is that it is very unpredictable and which limits the amount of viable Pokemon.

What this means is that Dynamax has caused teambuilding to be extremely linear and the meta has become a few Pokemon with setup and then support Pokemon. This can be seen with Rufflet and Galarian Farfetch’d, which would both be decent threats without Dynamax but have there issues of speed control, and accuracy specifically for Rufflet being fixed with Dynamax. Other Pokemon such as Diglett, Galarian Linoone and Roselia are common support Pokemon which set up hazards and let setup sweepers have an easier time setting up. Almost all teams on the ladder have followed this similar style of teambuilding.

I firmly believe that Dynamax restricts the flexibility of what Pokemon can be used effectively and limits the impact that teambuilding has on the game. It is extremely difficult to prepare for the offensive threats because even the 7th or 8th best Dynamax abuser need to be prepared for as Dynamax makes any decent Pokemon extremely potent as long as it has setup. I think that banning the best Dynamax abusers (Rufflet and Galarian Mr Mime) will not particularly target the issue of teambuilding as the next best alternatives will be used instead and most notably Fighting-types and Haunter will significantly benefit from the removal of their offensive checks.

Dynamax and In-Battle
Whilst I’ve already touched on it briefly before in the teambuilding section, there are really only two ways of dealing with an offensive Dynamax which is defensively dynamaxing and using stuff like Substitute to stall turns of Dynamax. The latter is pretty much never done on defensive Pokemon whilst the former is problematic as Dynamax has proved that its benefits are favoured far more towards offensive play than defensive play. Dynamaxing defensively is much harder to capitalise on also tends to mean you lose far more tempo than the person who dynamaxes offensively.

I also believe that Dynamax significantly limits the different ways you can win the game and instead forces every match to be centred around how Dynamax are used. I think this is extremely unhealthy and somewhat uncompetitive as Dynamax has significantly limited the impact the rest of the game has and forces too much of a spotlight on one decision in the game.

Overall, Dynamax is mean and I prefer we proactively look into it more so we can ban it if it continues to be broken.

Honestly I don't want to call you out but I think you are going into this with the wrong mentality.
Everything about this screams 'I want to ban it and I'll show why' opposed to 'I looked into it and I want it banned.'
While it's your right to think whatever you want, it's clear right now a lot of people see Rufflet as the issue, and not Dynamaxing, in first instance. Can it really hurt then to take out Rufflet and see what it's like then?
Nobody is pretending to be a messiah that knows all, or well, I'm not, and banning rufflet in first instance is a lot safer than looking at banning Dynamax right now, imo. It's a lot easier to unban a mon than to unban a mechanic.

this makes the entire discussion a bit difficult. Rufflet is the issue. Other dynamax mons don't even come close to the threat Rufflet poses to teams. It OHKOs some Ferroseed spreads and OHKOs Shellos, two insanely bulky mons, and casually deals with Corsola. How can you plan to play defensively against Dynamaxing if Rufflet annihilates most defensive mons? It's just not feasible. Give the playerbase, the ones who actually have to deal with all the results, a chance to play the meta without Rufflet, then a dynamax discussion can be really fruitful.
I don't want to overstep my boundaries, but this is my sincere opinion on the matter.

 

[Jett]

This next post will clarify one detail about what I think about Rufflet and also attempt to refute all of Darth's points.

Honestly I don't want to call you out but I think you are going into this with the wrong mentality.

This is an Ad Hominem fallacy. There is literally no reason for you to bring me up in this. There is no justification for putting this here and then later stating "While it's your right to think whatever you want,'' except to attempt to weaken the credibility of my arguments.

Everything about this screams 'I want to ban it and I'll show why' opposed to 'I looked into it and I want it banned.'

This generalises my argument quite a bit. Whilst yes it can be argued that some parts of my argument may be biased towards wanting Dynamax banned and may come off as that at times, I ultimately believe that it's unhealthy for the tier which is why I want to ban it. Having a stronger view does not make any of my arguments less valid or less sound.

While it's your right to think whatever you want, it's clear right now a lot of people see Rufflet as the issue, and not Dynamaxing, in first instance. Can it really hurt then to take out Rufflet and see what it's like then?

Here is a case of argument by emotive language due to the loaded closed rhetorical question. Yes, a lot of people see Rufflet as the issue including myself but there is no mention that many of those same people also stating they believe this would not be the case in a non-Dynamax meta. When specifically looking at this point, I agree that it is impossible to conclude whether the mon or mechanic is the issue.

Nobody is pretending to be a messiah that knows all, or well, I'm not, and banning rufflet in first instance is a lot safer than looking at banning Dynamax right now, imo. It's a lot easier to unban a mon than to unban a mechanic.

This paragraph straw mans my argument and the argument of other pro-ban players. At no point did I say I was not in favour of banning Rufflet, I've kinda been vocal in ps room as to wanting to get it banned to show whether or not dynamax is broken. Whilst I did not explicitly say it in my post, I do agree with you that banning Rufflet causes the least collateral damage and allows us to explore the meta further. I agree targetting the mon first is easier but literally no one has argued that it's the other way around.

this makes the entire discussion a bit difficult. Rufflet is the issue. Other dynamax mons don't even come close to the threat Rufflet poses to teams.

This is another sweeping generalisation which simplifies my point. I don't think this is true because of the existence of Galarian Mime (although it would be very strong in non-dyna as well) which is on par with Rufflet as a dynamax threat. Also I believe that it ultimately doesn't matter how close the power level between Machoke and Rufflet or Farfetch'd and Rufflet because your counter argument has ignored the fact that banning Rufflet opens up a lot more opportunities for other Dynamax abusers.

It OHKOs some Ferroseed spreads and OHKOs Shellos, two insanely bulky mons, and casually deals with Corsola. How can you plan to play defensively against Dynamaxing if Rufflet annihilates most defensive mons? It's just not feasible.

There is a false dilemma here but that doesn't really matter here since I've stated that I'm fine with a Rufflet ban.

Give the playerbase, the ones who actually have to deal with all the results, a chance to play the meta without Rufflet, then a dynamax discussion can be really fruitful.

This is a clear use of appeal to popularity/crowd. Also again, I am not opposed to a non-Rufflet meta. I stated I want dynamax gone soon and not now, because I currently believe it is broken and unhealthy. Also another Ad Hominem here or at least poor phrase choice with the word player base; I don't see a reason for why you think I don't play this tier as well.

If it isn't clear from the above, I have no problem with banning Pokemon first to keep the meta healthier whilst we continue to look into dynamax. Looking forward to seeing other counter arguments as well as pro ban players to share their thoughts in the future. Pce.

 

[Darth]

This next post will clarify one detail about what I think about Rufflet and also attempt to refute all of Darth's points.


This is an Ad Hominem fallacy. There is literally no reason for you to bring me up in this. There is no justification for putting this here and then later stating "While it's your right to think whatever you want,'' except to attempt to weaken the credibility of my arguments.


This generalises my argument quite a bit. Whilst yes it can be argued that some parts of my argument may be biased towards wanting Dynamax banned and may come off as that at times, I ultimately believe that it's unhealthy for the tier which is why I want to ban it. Having a stronger view does not make any of my arguments less valid or less sound.


Here is a case of argument by emotive language due to the loaded closed rhetorical question. Yes, a lot of people see Rufflet as the issue including myself but there is no mention that many of those same people also stating they believe this would not be the case in a non-Dynamax meta. When specifically looking at this point, I agree that it is impossible to conclude whether the mon or mechanic is the issue.


This paragraph straw mans my argument and the argument of other pro-ban players. At no point did I say I was not in favour of banning Rufflet, I've kinda been vocal in ps room as to wanting to get it banned to show whether or not dynamax is broken. Whilst I did not explicitly say it in my post, I do agree with you that banning Rufflet causes the least collateral damage and allows us to explore the meta further. I agree targetting the mon first is easier but literally no one has argued that it's the other way around.


This is another sweeping generalisation which simplifies my point. I don't think this is true because of the existence of Galarian Mime (although it would be very strong in non-dyna as well) which is on par with Rufflet as a dynamax threat. Also I believe that it ultimately doesn't matter how close the power level between Machoke and Rufflet or Farfetch'd and Rufflet because your counter argument has ignored the fact that banning Rufflet opens up a lot more opportunities for other Dynamax abusers.


There is a false dilemma here but that doesn't really matter here since I've stated that I'm fine with a Rufflet ban.


This is a clear use of appeal to popularity/crowd. Also again, I am not opposed to a non-Rufflet meta. I stated I want dynamax gone soon and not now, because I currently believe it is broken and unhealthy. Also another Ad Hominem here or at least poor phrase choice with the word player base; I don't see a reason for why you think I don't play this tier as well.

If it isn't clear from the above, I have no problem with banning Pokemon first to keep the meta healthier whilst we continue to look into dynamax. Looking forward to seeing other counter arguments as well as pro ban players to share their thoughts in the future. Pce.

Refuting and "I call everything a fallacy without actual backing" are two different things.

1. It's not an ad hom on the simple premise that it wasn't an argument to begin with. An ad hom is a direct attack on you disguised as an argument; I simply told you what I think about your approach to the issue.

2. It wouldn't. Just like I followed with, you're allowed to think and be positioned however you want. I'm clueless as to why you're seemingly feeling a need to claim I'm generalizing you, for you to then agree that it's not wrong. If it's not wrong, then that was the point. It didn't discredit you, I didn't say anything to discredit you as a result, I didn't bring it up as an argument, I simply stated 'this post feels as if you're looking for reasons to ban dynamaxing rather than looking if dynamax should be banned'.

3. Emotive language is a fallacy where you appeal to someone's moral or ethical values to try and change a core part of the argumentation into something it is not. I did not. I asked if it can hurt to wait and see if Rufflet's ban (even if temporary) wouldn't be better. I've said this twice now, but still not a fallacy.

4. See, you call it a straw man but the irony is that you're the fallacious one in this: External source.
You may have said things in the room, but you did not in your post and that is all I responded to. You did not mention in your post that you were open to the idea:

I think that banning the best Dynamax abusers (Rufflet and Galarian Mr Mime) will not particularly target the issue of teambuilding as the next best alternatives will be used instead and most notably Fighting-types and Haunter will significantly benefit from the removal of their offensive checks.

You simply dismissed it in a couple words. Anything you said in the room about the same subject is not my job to know, it's not what I was responding to. Calling that a straw man is a result of you assuming I know what you say in the room, which I don't, because your post does not make mention at all of banning Rufflet before anything else; it explicitly mentions 'proactively looking into banning dynamaxing'

5. It would be a generalization if I was actively trying to disprove you. I reworded my opinion on what the best solution is, your already gave yours (paraphrased supra) and I don't see why I would comment on that further.

6. False Dilemma implies the dilemma created is positioned as the only possible outcome. I gave 2 defensive mons and I asked you a question about how you can play defensively. I did not tell you "yes but it's x or y and you can't see it otherwise."

7. Or, y'know, I read the thread. You're not "part of the people who have to deal with the results". You're part of the council. The people who decide things. I don't know why you're intent on seeing things as fallacies, but the fact your False Dilemma claim is the only one that comes even close to a real fallacy says enough.

Calling something a fallacy doesn't make you right, nor does it make the other person wrong.
If you wanted to point out some fallacies that I made at 1 AM, I'll help:

1.Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy: It OHKOs some Ferroseed spreads and OHKOs Shellos, two insanely bulky mons
2. TQ Fallacy, from both of us, at certain points. Mostly the mudslinging parts.


And of course there's the biggest logical fallacy:
https://www.fallacyfiles.org/fallfall.html

 

[Cheryl.]

So I'm being forced to make this post (not really but I feel like I have to considering the sentiment in this thread). We all know what it's about, the big Pokémon man mechanic itself, Dynamax. (and why it should be banned!)

Now, we've already had a few weeks to test out Dynamaxing for ourselves and generally the consensus is that the mechanic is completely and utterly busted and boosts a certain few Pokémon to near godlike status in the meta. Being able to spam 100% accurate Hustle attacks that boost your Attack or Speed with Rufflet is indeed the most stupid thing ever, and Galarian Mr. Mime isn't too far behind in that regard, along with other things like Dynamaxed Fraxure. A lot of people seem to agree that Dynamaxing centralizes the meta around having to check these spotlighted mons but that isn't even the worst part. You never know what the opponent will Dynamax in a match so even if you're packing a check for something like Rufflet, the opponent could just push the Big Carry Button and Dynamax their Machoke or Klang or Haunter (pretty damn broken with Dynamaxing!) or whatever and beat down your check and probably sweep you because this mechanic is dumb as hell. There's no level of predictability with this mechanic and it makes games very frustrating knowing that. But you probably already know this, because every anti-Dynamax point has been beaten down to the ground already by the OU Metagame Thread and it's no different here because surprise surprise this mechanic is stupid. But let me address those in this thread who believe that Dynamaxing is fine once we ban the already broken mons (Rufflet, G-Mime) by spotlighting some other Dynamax users that are broken with this mechanic.

Haunter @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf / whatever you want really
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Will-O-Wisp / Substitute (you can run a lot in the last two slots)

Haunter is already pretty tough to deal with with it's amazing power and Speed, along with having enough coverage moves to keep it's checks on their toes. With Dynamaxing, this thing just becomes ridiculous to deal with as Max Ooze boosts it's already high SpA by +1, making it a terror to fatter mons and their cores. Haunter already abused Z-moves very well in SM and it's no different here as now it can use two STAB nukes at will, along with coverage like Max Starfall to smack stuff like Machoke at full and Pawniard. Scarf allows it to bypass stuff like Sneasel that could revenge it and if it lives past the Dynamax (unlikely but hey it's a possibility with this mechanic) with a boost from Max Ooze, your team is likely getting cleaned up. I have no doubt in my mind that if Dynamax stays this thing will get suspected and banned because it's broken with it.

Klang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Gear Grind
- Wild Charge
- Substitute

Klang doesn't seem that bad with Dynamaxing compared to stuff like G-Mime and Haunter and you'd be right on that but this thing can still be incredibly problematic to teams with the mechanic. It gets to spam a high powered Steel STAB (Max Steelsurge) that boosts it's Defense making it a tanky monster as well as being able to boost it's power with Max Lightning setting up Electric Terrain, making stuff like Mareanie a non-issue. It will still have trouble with things like Ferroseed as it's coverage is very linear but it's very good in this meta still because Steel typing is incredible for checking stuff like G-Mime and being able to set up on a lot of stuff and then being able to Dynamax and boost your Defense or power, it's amazing really. MAYBE this wouldn't get suspected if we kept it but it'd be a major nuisance for every team to have to deal with along with all the other abusers around.

Farfetch'd-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature (unsure which is better but it's strong enough to go Jolly for sure)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off / Substitute (pretty much filler because of Scrappy)

Underrated mon that's also busted with Dynamaxing! Farfetch'd-G has a crazy high Attack stat and pretty decent bulk with Eviolite as well as being faster than the other two big Fighters around, Gurdurr and Machoke. However, the big niche with this mon is that it can abuse Dynamax incredibly well because of it's access to Brave Bird. Not only does Brave Bird let it get around would-be checks like Gloom, it provides amazing neutral coverage with Close Combat AND becomes Max Airstream which boosts this thing's Speed to sweeping levels. Max Knuckle boosts Attack as well turning this thing into a boosting monster that can sweep a ton of teams through brute force alone. SD allows this thing to wallbreak naturally or just get a +2 Attack before D-Maxing and using Airstream to practically secure a sweep as nothing can really eat boosted Max Knuckles or Airstreams. (Not even meme mon Honedge, lets go Scrappy!) This thing is already pretty underrated in my mind but with Dynamaxing it's actually a problem for the meta LOL.

Fraxure @ Eviolite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Poison Jab
- Stomping Tantrum

Drakloak @ Eviolite / Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
- Phantom Force / Steel Wing

Nothing much to say with these two, Fraxure gets to DD up and then become really bulky and spam super strong STABs and coverage without repercussion, you basically run a Scarfer or die. Drakloak isn't quite as crazy because it's Attack isn't nearly as high but it can still abuse Dynamaxing very well due to being able to freely spam it's Ghost STAB (which lowers Defense, benefitting it even more) along with Max Wyrmwind dealing a shitton of damage and Max Flare being able to pick off stuff like Ferroseed and Pawn. I'd say if we kept Dynamaxing Fraxure would be more of an issue but I could see a lot of people complaining about both of the DD Dragons Dynamaxing and ruining their day.

So that's basically the jist of it, Dynamaxing bolsters a crapton of Pokemon's power to being incredibly hard to check because of the sheer power of their moves and how bulky they become when Dynamaxed, making them harder to revenge kill. (And of course the boosts they can gain from Dynamaxing as shown by stuff like G-Farfetch'd). It isn't just Rufflet or G-Mime, so much of the meta can become absolute nightmares to deal with because of this mechanic (there's even more than the ones I showed!) and it wouldn't be healthy to have to ban all of them just because we want to keep Dynamax around. In my opinion, keeping Dynamax for another few months would be useless because we'd just discover more mons to abuse it with and the meta would not grow very much because no team is going to be able to deal with all of the possible threats around. Ban this mechanic immediately so the tier can actually be playable and grow normally, and also ban broken stuff like G-Mime afterward.

 

[Darth]

So I'm being forced to make this post (not really but I feel like I have to considering the sentiment in this thread). We all know what it's about, the big Pokémon man mechanic itself, Dynamax. (and why it should be banned!)

Now, we've already had a few weeks to test out Dynamaxing for ourselves and generally the consensus is that the mechanic is completely and utterly busted and boosts a certain few Pokémon to near godlike status in the meta. Being able to spam 100% accurate Hustle attacks that boost your Attack or Speed with Rufflet is indeed the most stupid thing ever, and Galarian Mr. Mime isn't too far behind in that regard, along with other things like Dynamaxed Fraxure. A lot of people seem to agree that Dynamaxing centralizes the meta around having to check these spotlighted mons but that isn't even the worst part. You never know what the opponent will Dynamax in a match so even if you're packing a check for something like Rufflet, the opponent could just push the Big Carry Button and Dynamax their Machoke or Klang or Haunter (pretty damn broken with Dynamaxing!) or whatever and beat down your check and probably sweep you because this mechanic is dumb as hell. There's no level of predictability with this mechanic and it makes games very frustrating knowing that. But you probably already know this, because every anti-Dynamax point has been beaten down to the ground already by the OU Metagame Thread and it's no different here because surprise surprise this mechanic is stupid. But let me address those in this thread who believe that Dynamaxing is fine once we ban the already broken mons (Rufflet, G-Mime) by spotlighting some other Dynamax users that are broken with this mechanic.

Haunter @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf / whatever you want really
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Will-O-Wisp / Substitute (you can run a lot in the last two slots)

Haunter is already pretty tough to deal with with it's amazing power and Speed, along with having enough coverage moves to keep it's checks on their toes. With Dynamaxing, this thing just becomes ridiculous to deal with as Max Ooze boosts it's already high SpA by +1, making it a terror to fatter mons and their cores. Haunter already abused Z-moves very well in SM and it's no different here as now it can use two STAB nukes at will, along with coverage like Max Starfall to smack stuff like Machoke at full and Pawniard. Scarf allows it to bypass stuff like Sneasel that could revenge it and if it lives past the Dynamax (unlikely but hey it's a possibility with this mechanic) with a boost from Max Ooze, your team is likely getting cleaned up. I have no doubt in my mind that if Dynamax stays this thing will get suspected and banned because it's broken with it.

Klang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Gear Grind
- Wild Charge
- Substitute

Klang doesn't seem that bad with Dynamaxing compared to stuff like G-Mime and Haunter and you'd be right on that but this thing can still be incredibly problematic to teams with the mechanic. It gets to spam a high powered Steel STAB (Max Steelsurge) that boosts it's Defense making it a tanky monster as well as being able to boost it's power with Max Lightning setting up Electric Terrain, making stuff like Mareanie a non-issue. It will still have trouble with things like Ferroseed as it's coverage is very linear but it's very good in this meta still because Steel typing is incredible for checking stuff like G-Mime and being able to set up on a lot of stuff and then being able to Dynamax and boost your Defense or power, it's amazing really. MAYBE this wouldn't get suspected if we kept it but it'd be a major nuisance for every team to have to deal with along with all the other abusers around.

Farfetch'd-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature (unsure which is better but it's strong enough to go Jolly for sure)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off / Substitute (pretty much filler because of Scrappy)

Underrated mon that's also busted with Dynamaxing! Farfetch'd-G has a crazy high Attack stat and pretty decent bulk with Eviolite as well as being faster than the other two big Fighters around, Gurdurr and Machoke. However, the big niche with this mon is that it can abuse Dynamax incredibly well because of it's access to Brave Bird. Not only does Brave Bird let it get around would-be checks like Gloom, it provides amazing neutral coverage with Close Combat AND becomes Max Airstream which boosts this thing's Speed to sweeping levels. Max Knuckle boosts Attack as well turning this thing into a boosting monster that can sweep a ton of teams through brute force alone. SD allows this thing to wallbreak naturally or just get a +2 Attack before D-Maxing and using Airstream to practically secure a sweep as nothing can really eat boosted Max Knuckles or Airstreams. (Not even meme mon Honedge, lets go Scrappy!) This thing is already pretty underrated in my mind but with Dynamaxing it's actually a problem for the meta LOL.

Fraxure @ Eviolite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Poison Jab
- Stomping Tantrum

Drakloak @ Eviolite / Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
- Phantom Force / Steel Wing

Nothing much to say with these two, Fraxure gets to DD up and then become really bulky and spam super strong STABs and coverage without repercussion, you basically run a Scarfer or die. Drakloak isn't quite as crazy because it's Attack isn't nearly as high but it can still abuse Dynamaxing very well due to being able to freely spam it's Ghost STAB (which lowers Defense, benefitting it even more) along with Max Wyrmwind dealing a shitton of damage and Max Flare being able to pick off stuff like Ferroseed and Pawn. I'd say if we kept Dynamaxing Fraxure would be more of an issue but I could see a lot of people complaining about both of the DD Dragons Dynamaxing and ruining their day.

So that's basically the jist of it, Dynamaxing bolsters a crapton of Pokemon's power to being incredibly hard to check because of the sheer power of their moves and how bulky they become when Dynamaxed, making them harder to revenge kill. (And of course the boosts they can gain from Dynamaxing as shown by stuff like G-Farfetch'd). It isn't just Rufflet or G-Mime, so much of the meta can become absolute nightmares to deal with because of this mechanic (there's even more than the ones I showed!) and it wouldn't be healthy to have to ban all of them just because we want to keep Dynamax around. In my opinion, keeping Dynamax for another few months would be useless because we'd just discover more mons to abuse it with and the meta would not grow very much because no team is going to be able to deal with all of the possible threats around. Ban this mechanic immediately so the tier can actually be playable and grow normally, and also ban broken stuff like G-Mime afterward.

This post completely ignores defensive dynamaxing and uses the ignoring to pretend the mons listed will always be a threat to you. Aside from this, I have a few issues with this post:

- Haunter:
Scarf can let it bypass sneasel who could revenge kill
-> Blatantly untrue. Either Haunter is already de-dynamaxed, in which case it's no longer about Dyna, or haunter is getting outsped as scarf is ignored while dynamaxed. Seeing as haunter doesn't have a single set where it doesn't die to sneasel, I fail to see the point being raised here?
Everything else is haunter being haunter. All in all, dynamaxing haunter will more often than not end in a counter-dynamax and your haunter dying due to how frail it is even post dynamax.

- Klang:
Klang doesn't seem that bad with Dynamaxing compared to stuff like G-Mime and Haunter disagreed. It looks a lot scarier than Haunter. For one, its bulk becomes crazy, for two, its shit movepool is somewhat helped by Max Lightning setting E-terrain and absolving it of recoil, not to mention it just uses shift gear for speed first.
That being said, as brought up, Klang loses out to nearly every ground type that focuses on defense (mudbray in particular has a field day switching into gear grind) and is neutered by Ferroseed. The odds of having to waste your own dynamax on walling Klang is fairly small, but if your mon cannot natively bulk it out, dynamaxing it will usually let you deal with Klang just fine. Palpitoed, Mudbray, Ferroseed, Barboach, Hippopotas all have little issue with Klang, as they can all outplay its 100% predictable set to a good extend. Corsola-Galar as honorable mention due to haze.

- Farfetch'd-Galar:
Underrated? lol? I'll admit I've been vocally calling it shit from the start but who exactly is underrating farfetch'd? Most players know full well what Farfetch'd can do and the only reason it's not more common is because Rufflet outclasses it when it comes to a dynamax set.
Nothing to disagree with here.

- Fraxure
Splitting this from drakloak due to the vastly different natures
Fraxure is strong. Not a secret. Fraxure deals damage - also not a secret. However there's nothing new about this Fraxure. Sure its bulk gets better but its DD set is good without wasting your dynamax on it. Most of the time if you need to Dynamax Fraxure, it's because your opponent is checking it, and dynamaxing rarely aids you more than a second DD would have, but in general I just don't see where your point lies with Fraxure specifically. It already breaks a lot of things, and when it dynamaxes it can catch people by surprise. Now either your opponent can deal with +1 speed fraxure or they can't. Its coverage is good to a point where Outrage/Pjab/Tantrum is solid anyways (due to the lack of Pokemon to wall that coverage) and in general a mon that will try to wall Fraxure will die without dynamaxing too.
One of the strongest defensive mons, Corsola, for example:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 144-171 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock -> +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 153-181 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Jolly Fraxure)

while it still can't break Ferroseed, even with Max moves
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed on a critical hit: 153-181 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Max move, Crit)

(You'll notice these are adamant calcs. You used Jolly, which is better for preventing Sneasel revenging. But as you can tell, loses out on power to mons that check it.)(Edit: added jolly calc for Corsola)
So the argument that it's dynamax that's the issue with Fraxure is bad. Either you think Fraxure is an issue because it breaks shit too easily, or it's not an issue because there's counterplay. The mons that revenge Fraxure still can, particularly Piloswine (+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 255-300 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (max move)) can still deal with Fraxure fine, a big part of why it's not as relevant as you make it out to be.

- Drakloak:
Permit me to disagree heavily that Drakloak is the lesser of the DD twins.
Drakloak's moveset allows it to be much more versatile in what it does, and much harder to wall. While its ATK is worse, it has the moves to deal with common checks of Fraxure or other physical sweepers like Corsola, Piloswine and Ferroseed.
If anything, it's worse than Fraxure in terms of abusing Dynamax. So why isn't it used more?

The set you listed is a bit ironic as depending on the move you choose, you get walled by the top threats of the meta.
Corsola-Galar will take down your DDDyna set without Phantom Force any day of the week. Refer to Fraxure Calc above and just apply logic.
It should be noted that Max Wyrmwind does a lot less extra damage than you make it out to. Outrage is 120 BP, meaning Wyrmwind is 140. 20 BP extra isn't nothing, for sure, but it's hardly something that breaks the meta in the same shape as Max Psychic or Max Wood hammer or Max Wild Charge do by setting their terrain.

As for the Phantom Force set, it suffers from the thing you run Max Steelspike for - Fairies. Particularly Morgrem can be horrible for Drakloak now that we know you cannot use Substitute on Dynamax mons.

Of course, Morgrem is hardly the only fairy that can deal with Drakloak, however, at the (short) end of the day the same rule applies as with Fraxure; it's not hard to revenge kill Drakloak. Especially with how it has to use max flare off of 60 SPA that you cannot really invest in without weakening Drakloak majorly.


I could've saved myself time and said "Defensive dynamax solves all of these except Farfetch'd", and trust me, it'd have been a lot easier; but you have calcs, you have facts, you have visible proof that the notion that these mons are on the level of Rufflet or Mime is simply wrong.
I'll take the hate for defending Dynamax again,

Edit: Altered wording a bit to make it clear I'm not calling Cheryl. 's post, opinion, or conclusion fake.

 

[Darth]

Away from Dynaxing:
Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Haze
- Will-O-Wisp
- Curse

Had to share this lovely set. It seems like a meme, the more you use it, the more you see why it's not.

 

[SBPC]

This post completely ignores defensive dynamaxing and uses the ignoring to pretend the mons listed will always be a threat to you. Ignoring the fact that that's blatantly fake, there's more issues to point out:

- Haunter:
Scarf can let it bypass sneasel who could revenge kill
-> Blatantly untrue. Either Haunter is already de-dynamaxed, in which case it's no longer about Dyna, or haunter is getting outsped as scarf is ignored while dynamaxed. Seeing as haunter doesn't have a single set where it doesn't die to sneasel, I fail to see the point being raised here?
Everything else is haunter being haunter. All in all, dynamaxing haunter will more often than not end in a counter-dynamax and your haunter dying due to how frail it is even post dynamax.

- Klang:
Klang doesn't seem that bad with Dynamaxing compared to stuff like G-Mime and Haunter disagreed. It looks a lot scarier than Haunter. For one, its bulk becomes crazy, for two, its shit movepool is somewhat helped by Max Lightning setting E-terrain and absolving it of recoil, not to mention it just uses shift gear for speed first.
That being said, as brought up, Klang loses out to nearly every ground type that focuses on defense (mudbray in particular has a field day switching into gear grind) and is neutered by Ferroseed. The odds of having to waste your own dynamax on walling Klang is fairly small, but if your mon cannot natively bulk it out, dynamaxing it will usually let you deal with Klang just fine. Palpitoed, Mudbray, Ferroseed, Barboach, Hippopotas all have little issue with Klang, as they can all outplay its 100% predictable set to a good extend. Corsola-Galar as honorable mention due to haze.

- Farfetch'd-Galar:
Underrated? lol? I'll admit I've been vocally calling it shit from the start but who exactly is underrating farfetch'd? Most players know full well what Farfetch'd can do and the only reason it's not more common is because Rufflet outclasses it when it comes to a dynamax set.
Nothing to disagree with here.

- Fraxure
Splitting this from drakloak due to the vastly different natures
Fraxure is strong. Not a secret. Fraxure deals damage - also not a secret. However there's nothing new about this Fraxure. Sure its bulk gets better but its DD set is good without wasting your dynamax on it. Most of the time if you need to Dynamax Fraxure, it's because your opponent is checking it, and dynamaxing rarely aids you more than a second DD would have, but in general I just don't see where your point lies with Fraxure specifically. It already breaks a lot of things, and when it dynamaxes it can catch people by surprise. Now either your opponent can deal with +1 speed fraxure or they can't. Its coverage is good to a point where Outrage/Pjab/Tantrum is solid anyways (due to the lack of Pokemon to wall that coverage) and in general a mon that will try to wall Fraxure will die without dynamaxing too.
One of the strongest defensive mons, Corsola, for example:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 144-171 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock -> +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 153-181 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Jolly Fraxure)

while it still can't break Ferroseed, even with Max moves
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed on a critical hit: 153-181 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Max move, Crit)

(You'll notice these are adamant calcs. You used Jolly, which is better for preventing Sneasel revenging. But as you can tell, loses out on power to mons that check it.)(Edit: added jolly calc for Corsola)
So the argument that it's dynamax that's the issue with Fraxure is bad. Either you think Fraxure is an issue because it breaks shit too easily, or it's not an issue because there's counterplay. The mons that revenge Fraxure still can, particularly Piloswine (+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 255-300 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (max move)) can still deal with Fraxure fine, a big part of why it's not as relevant as you make it out to be.

- Drakloak:
Permit me to disagree heavily that Drakloak is the lesser of the DD twins.
Drakloak's moveset allows it to be much more versatile in what it does, and much harder to wall. While its ATK is worse, it has the moves to deal with common checks of Fraxure or other physical sweepers like Corsola, Piloswine and Ferroseed.
If anything, it's worse than Fraxure in terms of abusing Dynamax. So why isn't it used more?

The set you listed is a bit ironic as depending on the move you choose, you get walled by the top threats of the meta.
Corsola-Galar will take down your DDDyna set without Phantom Force any day of the week. Refer to Fraxure Calc above and just apply logic.
It should be noted that Max Wyrmwind does a lot less extra damage than you make it out to. Outrage is 120 BP, meaning Wyrmwind is 140. 20 BP extra isn't nothing, for sure, but it's hardly something that breaks the meta in the same shape as Max Psychic or Max Wood hammer or Max Wild Charge do by setting their terrain.

As for the Phantom Force set, it suffers from the thing you run Max Steelspike for - Fairies. Particularly Morgrem can be horrible for Drakloak now that we know you cannot use Substitute on Dynamax mons.

Of course, Morgrem is hardly the only fairy that can deal with Drakloak, however, at the (short) end of the day the same rule applies as with Fraxure; it's not hard to revenge kill Drakloak. Especially with how it has to use max flare off of 60 SPA that you cannot really invest in without weakening Drakloak majorly.


I could've saved myself time and said "Defensive dynamax solves all of these except Farfetch'd", and trust me, it'd have been a lot easier; but you have calcs, you have facts, you have visible proof that the notion that these mons are on the level of Rufflet or Mime is simply wrong.
I'll take the hate for defending Dynamax again,

I don't like this post. At all.

This post completely ignores defensive dynamaxing and uses the ignoring to pretend the mons listed will always be a threat to you. Ignoring the fact that that's blatantly fake, there's more issues to point out:

before i go on, i just wanna point out this man said you shouldn't prep for haunter, klang, frax, or drakloak with that wording. Clownery.


There's a lot to unpack here, and i'm gonna kick it off with his "don't ban dyna uwu" arguements from the fact that you're just stating that you need to waste in your own dyna, or use specfically corsola-g to stop it. Those of which, have their own ways of being smashed around. Sub + Setup takes any of these "haha hard counter" situations into a desperate struggle to stop the setup before they feel comfortable enough to dynamax and start pressing buttons to win.
(for clearance, you use the substitute to ensure that corsola cannot burn or SSap you, then dmax out from behind the sub to start doing damage.

- Fraxure
Splitting this from drakloak due to the vastly different natures
Fraxure is strong. Not a secret. Fraxure deals damage - also not a secret. However there's nothing new about this Fraxure. Sure its bulk gets better but its DD set is good without wasting your dynamax on it. Most of the time if you need to Dynamax Fraxure, it's because your opponent is checking it, and dynamaxing rarely aids you more than a second DD would have, but in general I just don't see where your point lies with Fraxure specifically. It already breaks a lot of things, and when it dynamaxes it can catch people by surprise. Now either your opponent can deal with +1 speed fraxure or they can't. Its coverage is good to a point where Outrage/Pjab/Tantrum is solid anyways (due to the lack of Pokemon to wall that coverage) and in general a mon that will try to wall Fraxure will die without dynamaxing too.
One of the strongest defensive mons, Corsola, for example:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 144-171 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock -> +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 153-181 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Jolly Fraxure)

Did you just decide to completely ignore this thing gets superpower? Outrage/Pjab/Spo wer is absolutely nuts for coverage and handles all fronts just fine, and it can drop spower and pjab for subdd rage/tantrum, which is a neat set in its own right that's meant to setup then win off dmax being stupidly busted, but thats for another day. I agree that a second DD aids far more than just flat out dmaxing, but only in the scenario that galarian corsola exists to try and stop frax, already adding on the fact you have to be full physdef just to survive longer than 2 hits.

And for your sake, Defensive dynamax here results in you being utterly steamrolled as you waste away turns to fraxure letting himself boost, or when he exits dmax first (assuming you dmax turn 2) let him get set up to hit you hard once you leave dyna, since you can't heal or cripple, and if you switch out, you don't have a dyna to block twice.

Now while I'll agree that Klang wasn't the best of arguments, and that haunter is piss easy to revenge when dynamaxed, I'm gonna bring up some mons that are far better for breaking this god forsaken mechanic.
I won't be talking about rufflet and mime, since everyone and their dog knows those are busted and why.

Sneasel:
While not my favorite of Ice types in the current meta, this thing's speed tier and atrocious dual STAB practically invalidate most forms of defensive play. Max Darkness off of throat chop, Hailstorm off of Icicle Crash, and moves like Low Kick for max knuckle, and THEN options to boost up like Swords Dance, You're facing off against the Dynamax Kratos of this tier, and stopping it requires a specfic handful of fighting types such as Gurdurr and Machoke (both of which have to dyna themselves to have a chance at winning, especially if it's packing Psycho Cut over Low Kick for them. This mon would still be good w/o dynamax, but not anywhere near as remotely overwhelming as it is.

Machoke:
Speaking of bulky fighting types, let's take the musclehead that got notoriety for eating boosted attacks like pasta salad then firing back OHKO moves, and double it's health, while giving it access to moves that break it's stats. Thank the lord this thing doesn't have some form of a max airstream, as guts and knock make it stupidly difficult for corsola to do anything other than strength sap, and in the face of it, it can just leave or switch into a wisp to start cracking the tier over it's neck. Revenging it isnt even an easy task since most of the mons that can ohko it are beaten by dynamaxing and pressing buttons, and dynamaxing defensively to save yourself usually isnt enough due to the raw power this thing hits with.

Something shared in common by both of the above abusers is that they're some of few stops to corsola stalling your entire team, and if that gets banned, then dynamax abusers will only get worse, with mons like Gurdurr, Galar Fetch'd, the aforementioned Haunter, Klang, and Drakloak, and some lower tiered threats who will lose their best defensive check, such as Hakamo-o, Palpitoad, and Pawniard. And while a massive slew of pokemon becoming suddenly viable seems pretty nifty on hand, these colors of the rainbow all abuse one mechanic, causing the meta to become an offense v offense chicken fight to see who wastes their dyna first before they have to use a specfic hazer to avoid an instant loss. Defensive mons like Ferroseed, Mareanie, and Palpitoad just can't eat this raw stabs and have few ways to genuinely prevent setup or being hit by Dmax coverage. Defensive Dynamaxing in the case of these mons will lock off a majority of your moveslots to max guard, letting a proper bulky setup resist the hit and go for gold against your team. By removing dynamax, you stop this constant cycle of snowball sweepers being slapped on top of eachother and lazily hashed onto the field with Corsola-G being the only saving grace in your falsetto of defensive play.

Capping it off with a statement: Ban Dynamax from NFE, then let the meta adapt from there.

A little extra note for Seraphus:
Don't call other people's posts "fake" just because you disagree with them. Sometimes people will fuck up and miss points but that doesn't mean you just go after them like some kind of savage animal, especially when you got dick for arguments anyways. Don't take this as some sort of "You suck, leave Smogon" but rather a chance to step back and think on the shit you post before someone with actual beef with you takes you apart like a recipe. Argue with me if you'd like, I'd love to hear what you have to say to some of my points.

now to wait on the council to post their shit. peace.

E: dude edited his post so it reads a bit better now, glad for that

 

[Felucia]

I was asked to do this so here we are

Average base stats for NFE's top used pokemon

hp: 61
atk: 70
def: 66
spa: 60
spd: 66
spe: 59

Average base stats for OU's top used pokemon

hp: 79
atk: 91
def: 88
spa: 82
spd: 84
spe: 76

I used the gen8nfe-0.txt and gen8ou-0.txt statistics, and included every pokemon with more than 3.5% usage. All values are rounded to the nearest whole

November usage stats link for those unaware

 

[lolgod3]

For dynamaxing, something can scarf setup, dynamax, and use another move, right? its broken, but do not ban it

 

[Jett]

Hey frens, the Council has had some discussions about the Pokemon we need to look into post-Dynamax Clause. We're currently looking at our options with Mr. Mime-Galar and Corsola-Galar, so please let us know with your reasoning, what you would like to see happen. Council opinion and action may change depending on what community post here!!

Mr. Mime-Galar is one of NFE’s premier offensive threats, thanks to its solid Special Attack stat coupled with being the 3rd fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier. Mr. Mime-Galar has great coverage moves such as Shadow Ball and Focus Blast and when paired with Psychic and Ice Beam allows it to deal super effective hits to every Pokemon from S to A-. With access to Nasty Plot, Trick and Rapid Spin, Mr. Mime-Galar can run a variety of sets from being a setup sweeper to being a Choice Scarf user and this flexibility allows it to fit easily on a majority of teams. However, Mr. Mime-Galar does have a poor defensive typing and its weakness to rocks can make it difficult to switch in at times. The Dynamax ban also hurts Mr. Mime-Galar slightly as it makes revenge killing Mr. Mime-Galar easier, since it can no longer set up Psychic Terrain with Max Mindstorm or double its HP.

Council’s Verdict: Council have mixed opinions about whether to quickban or suspect Mr. Mime-Galar.

With 60/100/100 defenses, Corsola-Galar is one of the best defensive threats NFE has ever seen. With access to great status moves such as Strength Sap, Will-O-Wisp, Haze, Stealth Rock and Calm Mind, Corsola-Galar can be an amazing role compressor and can fit onto many teams easily. Corsola-Galar has also benefited from the limited Knock Off and Toxic distribution, which has made it much harder to break through or wear down. The recent implementation of Dynamax Clause is likely to further improve Corsola-Galar’s stance as the best defensive wall in the tier. However, Corsola-Galar is quite passive and Pokemon such as Gurdurr, Morgrem and Linoone-Galar can use Taunt to shut it down. Haunter is also a very common wallbreaker, which can easily deal with Corsola-Galar and Hattrem has been rising in usage as a Magic Bouncer which can either setup on or wear down Corsola-Galar.

Council’s Verdict: The majority of council believe that a suspect test may be required for Corsola-Galar in the near future.

 

[ArcticBreeze]

Sample Team submission (if accepted it would need to be reformatted)
----------------------------------------------------
Piloswine Balance by [me ig]

https://pokepast.es/1457d604b2a3d1b3

Description/how-to use

Piloswine is a premier pokemon of the NFE format boasting high stats, a great offensive typing, priority, and stealth rock. This ev spread allows Piloswine to outspeed 60 speed ev'd Machoke; allowing it to revenge kill a weakened Machoke. Piloswine is capable of checking many offensive threats such as Mr.Mime-Galar and Haunter. It's ability thick fat helps it's already potent defensive ability. Corsola-Galar is the teams best answer to Machoke. It also is capable of blocking Mr.Mime-Galar from using rapid spin. It also can use haze due to Piloswine having stealth rock. The ev spread allows it to take both physical and special attacks with ease, while outspeeding most opposing Corsola-Galar. Mareanie is there to set and absorb Toxic Spikes; since the team lacks rapid spin and defog. Mareanie also soft-checks several offensive threads in NFE. Machoke is the Pawniard check and the wall breaker; abusing knock off, strong STAB, and earthquake. The speed allows Machoke to underspeed opposing Machoke in the infamous double Machoke lead (this is important because of close combat defense drops). Pawniard is great combined with Machoke. It pressures Corsola-Galar to not use strength sap, while Machoke pressures it to not use will-o-wisp. Pawniard is a blanket check to Mr.Mime-Galar, stops dual-dance Duosion, gets a defiant boost against sticky web teams, has STAB sucker punch, and can pressure Hattrem. Mr.Mime-Galar is the set up sweeper of the team and a fast revenge killer. Ice Beam and psychic are strong stabs, while focus blast hits most checks to Mr.Mime-Galar.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proof team isn't terrible (31-0 and first on ladder + ghosting tour win )

 

[Quagg]

Happy new year everyone! Gonna start this year off with a little post about Mr Mime-Galar and Corsola-Galar.


Crystalites explained very well what Mr Mime-Galar does in the post above, so in this post I'm just gonna give you my thoughts about Mime.

Trick, Rapid Spin and Nasty Plot and its coverage moves is what makes Mime overwhelming. From team preview you never know which set you're gonna bump into.
Trick can potentially make your defensive Mime check useless in the rest of the game since Mime will most likely Trick a Choice Scarf. In most cases Mime will even trade Choice Scarf with Eviolite which makes it an amazing trade. Here is an example from Ghosting tour semis where Klang was given a Choice Scarf, making it pretty much useless lategame. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nfe-1037210017
Rapid Spin actually makes Mime one of the best Hazard removers in the tier. It also allows it to outspeed scarf based revenge killers like Haunter and lets it outspeed Drakloak and Sneasel which otherwise naturally outspeeds Mr Mime-Galar.
Nasty Plot pushes Mime over the edge Imo since nothing really wants to take a hit. The best defensive checks is SpDef Klang, SpDef Ferroseed and SpDef Corsola-Galar. Here are are some calcs(bear in mind all these mons fear Trick, and Klang and Ferroseed has Rest and Leech Seed respectively as recovery moves):

Offensive Calcs

252 SpA Mr Mime-Galar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Eviolite Klang: 124-146 (38.2 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mr Mime-Galar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 108-128 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 SpA Mr Mime-Galar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Eviolite Klang: 246-290 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mr Mime-Galar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 214-254 (73.2 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Mr Mime Galar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Mr Mime-Galar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corsola-Galar: 196-232 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Knocked Corsola)
Note: PhysDef Corsola-Galar is more common than SpD and will get 2hkoed by +2 Shadow Ball. I added Knocked Corsola calc since its very likely that Corsola will get Knocked off in game. Knocked Off PhysDef Corsola has a chance to drop after Stealth Rock damage.

Just gonna add defensive calcs for fun to show that Mime actually isn't that frail.

Defensive Calcs

252 Atk Linoone-Galar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Mr Mime-Galar.: 200-236 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Mr Mime-Galar.: 180-212 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mr Mime-Galar.: 176-210 (73 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Drakloak Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mr Mime-Galar.: 176-210 (73 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Council’s Verdict: Council have mixed opinions about whether to quickban or suspect Mr. Mime-Galar.
Quags Verdict: I wouldn't mind a qb tbh. Mime is so unpredictable and hard to deal with for every team. I don't think its a healthy mon at all.


Again, Crystalites explained really well what Corsola-Galar does so I'm just gonna share my thoughts about this Pokemon.

I have 2 major points I wanna bring up for Corsola-Galar.
1. This Pokemon is unhealthy because it requires usage and makes building skill less important. If you don't use this Pokemon you're already at a disadvantage, because no other Pokemon can compete with Corsola-Galar when it comes to Role Compression. This Pokemon can set up Stealth Rock, check almost every physical attacker in the tier thanks to Strength Sap and Will-O-Wisp, block Rapid Spin because of Ghost type, Haze setup sweepers and can even do a lot of damage because of Night Shade. It can even be used as a setup Pokemon since it learns Calm mind.

2. The Dynamax ban and the lack of Knock Off and Toxic users makes Corsola-Galar very hard to deal with. I feel like this point kind of speak for itself. When Dynamax was around it was easier to kill Corsola since you hit it with stronger attacks while also ignoring Corsolas Cursed Body ability. Night Shade also did less damage because of the HP boost from Dynamax. Few Knock Off and Toxic users means that wearing down Corsola becomes a lot more challenging.

Im gonna add a couple of calcs just to show how bulky this Pokemon really is.

Cors calcs

+3 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 240-283 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 265-312 (81.7 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Council’s Verdict: The majority of council believe that a suspect test may be required for Corsola-Galar in the near future.
Quags Verdict: Agreed. I also think that if Corsola leaves, it will open up the door for more creative teams and more fun!

 

[Eris]

In this post I'm just going to add to what Crystalites and Quag have wrote in their post, I'm mainly going to focus on why these Pokemons are problematic, trying to look at what the solutions to these Pokemons are and whether or not these solutions are "too much" for the NFE metagame. This also explains my views as a council member and where I stand on these Pokemons.

I think when looking directly at Corsola-Galar (Gorsola), being an OU Pokemon already creates this reputation where because it is already so good in OU, why wouldn't you allow yourself to be using it? When you look at Gorsola's bulk it is pretty impressive, there aren't many Pokemons in the NFE metagame with one of their defensive stats surpassing 100 and all of them are outclassed by Gorsola as a defensive wall (Boldore, Togetic and Sliggoo for reference). The only other Pokemon that beats Gorsola stat wise is Dusclops and you really have no reason to use Dusclops in a Gorsola metagame (i learned this the hard way, cheers to simbo). The reason why you would use Gorsola in NFE over many other bulkier Pokemons is simply because nothing can really touch it, with our most popular moves being restricted there are no ways of easily stopping Gorsola in this metagame. Knock Off and Toxic restriction is the main problem why you would find yourself struggling against it, I mean if we had real moves on Gurdurr and Sneasel I don't think Gorsola would be the most centralising metagame wall. Similarly to what Quag mentioned in his post, Dynamax metagame was easier I mean you could throw in your Machoke, click Knock Off, Dynamax and boom the ghosty is outy but since Dynamax is no longer present there are much nicher ways of getting rid of Gorsola. Gorsola's role mainly revolves around stalling your opponent whilst not losing any health, with moves like Strength Sap this role is easily fulfilled especially combined with Will-O-Wisp and Haze. However Gorsola in itself is very passive, if it loses more than 60% of its health and has no chances of Strength Sap'ing it usually is dead and while you may think this is easily done it really isn't.

Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp
- Night Shade / Hex / Shadow Ball
- Stealth Rock / Haze / Ice Beam

idk what is up with the happiness thing idk mons but w/e

When looking at this set the first thing that jumps out to me is how passive it is. If you were to bring a Normal-Type such as Munchlax there wouldn't be much that this Pokemon could do and this was and is further proven by sub Rufflet in dyna metagame and Toxic Orb G-Linoone (the easiest answer). In this newly improved metagame however besides G-Linoone there aren't really any straight forward strategies around getting rid of a Gorsola, you can always Taunt or Encore it but when you think about it Gorsola isn't staying in on Morgrem and if it ends up infront of Clefairy it should just click Night Shade or Stealth Rock if they weren't on already, your best bet probably is Taunt Defog Gurdurr but again Strength Sap + Night Shade just gets rid of it. So what can you do to get rid of Gorsola? Bulkier Pokemons are now seeing rise with the ban of Dynamax and this majorly just involves Vullaby and Gloom, both of these Pokemons have access to Toxic, one to Knock Off and the other to Leech Seed + Strength Sap. If this isn't clear enough, you're basically in to stall Gorsola out. There are not many Pokemons that can switch into these two walls and your best bet to counter this core will usually be a Pokemon like Ferroseed, Hattrem or even Mr.Mime. This core will always be able to beat the opposing Gorsola, you'll usually find Pokemons like Machoke, Pawniard, Piloswine or even Toxic Spikes Mareanie paired to them to make sure that Gorsola will be worn down and this says a lot. Is it okay for Gorsola to force in 2 Pokemons to be used together solely to stall it out, a process that takes a long time and multiple plays to succeed?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nfe-1038714053
Probably not the best game in terms of plays etc but this shows what I'm talking about, fair enough I don't use Vullaby because Wish Tranquill seemed very appealing but you get the point of this strategy, every mon is made to force Gorsola to be worn down and side note I really enjoyed the feeling of Gorsola being powerless but man fuck Ferroseed lol.

Even tho Gorsola is a pain to deal with, it wouldn't be fair for me to not say what I appreciate about this Pokemon. My first point will have to be that I really appreciate the way it stabilises the metagame, last gen was a shit show between who was the brokest wallbreaker whether it was Machoke or Servine, the latter being no longer present (thank fuck). Machoke would honestly run shit in this metagame and I personally believes that if we were holding a S- rank atm Machoke would be the only one in it. Being the primary Knock Off abuser combined with the best coverage a Fighting-Type could ask just makes it better than any other A ranks in the metagame. There is not one Pokemon it does not touch other than Gloom and even that is debatable with the flame orb set. Eitherway Gorsola couldn't take less shits about it, Knock Off 3hko's it and Strength Sap just doesn't allow for it to. Gorsola also holds other wallbreakers in place such as Choice Band Piloswine, Rufflet, Fraxure and Klang. One could argue that Gloom, Mareanie or even Vullaby could handle these Pokemons as well but then it just brings another question into metagame centralisation. In a way I think Gorsola is mostly seen as Landorus-T in NFE, most people complain about it, many dislike it, it's hard to wear down but it is not broken, it just comes down to how centralising or unhealthy it really is which is something that I think would best be answered in a suspect test.

Council’s Verdict: The majority of council believe that a suspect test may be required for Corsola-Galar in the near future.
I am in this majority n_n


Moving on to Mr.Mime I'm going to be a little more blunt here because Quagg's post just sums it in 5 lines and there is little reason for me to go over everything. Mr.Mime should not reside in NFE this Pokemon should not be here. Mr.Mime is just too powerful for our tier I mean it has the best BST in our tier which already shows that the stats will be on average more advanced than most NFE Pokemon I mean 50/65/90 is very solid bulk. This combined with 90Spa + Nasty Plot and Psychic + Ice + Fighting moves just tears the tier. Just reminding you that none of the A ranks can reliably switch in on Mr.Mime without risking to get OHKO'd or at least 2hko'd.

S
Corsola-Galar
Mr Mime-Galar

A+

Haunter
Machoke
Piloswine

A
Ferroseed
Linoone-Galar
Mareanie
Sneasel

A-
Fraxure
Gloom
Gurdurr
Rufflet

even if you don't run Shadow Ball +2 Mime will still win against Gorsola, Quagg's post shows good calcs of why Mime rlly should not be here

I'm going to follow this up by saying that Rapid Spin is also very common on Mr.Mime in probably 75% of the games I have seen, it usually is too late for a player to realise that Mime wasn't running this move but was running this one and vice versa and now your game plan is lost and oops you sac'd a mon that could've avoided the 6-0. Screen Cleaner, Mr.Mime's signature ability also removes the opposing team's screens on switch in, which in many ways just benefits Mr.Mime's wall breaking abilities making it much harder to check. I have yet to find a counter for it I mean the best I've seen is Bronzor and honestly I don't know why you would use it, I have tried it and I really wanted it to work but Bronzor is just a waste of a slot you're actually better off running Scarf Drakloak or Sneasel. Following the mentioned scarfers this Pokemon isn't easy to revenge kill it is not weak to priority besides Sucker Punch and only one Pokemon commonly uses it, Pawniard. To say short you have 3 reliable options against Mr.Mime Scarf Drakloak and Scarf Sneasel and Pawniard I'd like to remind you that these two scarfers are not good, Drakloak hits very weakly and if you are to lock Sneasel into a move you're much better off using a Choice Band. Pawniard itself can't even switch in on Mr.Mime without the doubting Focus Blast.

Now as bad as Mr.Mime seems on practice there are actually a few factors which can be considered to 'balance it out' the first is that it suffers from 4moveslots, when you change a move for another move their will always be a time where you will regret it and that applies a lot to Mime, if you sacrifice coverage for rapid spin then you allow for Steel-Types to wall you but if you give up Rapid Spin for coverage then you allow yourself to be more easily killed. Mr.Mime is also weak to hazards and it doesn't like having to switch out, it's a mon that will usually settle in once which makes it easier to handle. These are its main faults I would say and while they may seem small they do bring Mr.Mime to be less overpowered than other banned Pokemons like Rhydon but Mr.Mime still remains too powerful to be in NFE imo.

Council’s Verdict: Council have mixed opinions about whether to quickban or suspect Mr. Mime-Galar.
I am for a quickban though I am not against a suspect test if I am showed reasoning behind why Mr.Mime should remain.

 

[Jett]

Hey everyone, Crystal here with a message from the council.

Mr. Mime-Galar has been voted to be banned by the SwSh NFE Council. Tagging The Immortal to implement this change, when possible, thanks in advance.

Mr. Mime-Galar was an offensive powerhouse and could run a multitude of sets. The first of which was a Nasty Plot set. Nasty Plot worked well in conjunction with its common moves of Ice Beam, Psychic, Focus Blast and Shadow Ball. These moves specifically allowed it to have the coverage to be able to hit every single Pokemon from S to A- for super effective damage. This turned Mr. Mime-Galar into both a menacing wallbreaker and very effective sweeper, with no true counters.

Common Worst Case Scenarios for Mime

+2 252 SpA Mr. Mime-Galar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Eviolite Klang: 246-290 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mr. Mime-Galar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 214-254 (73.2 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mr. Mime-Galar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Eviolite Charjabug: 175-207 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mr. Mime-Galar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 109-130 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

However, all of these defensive checks are unable to reliably switch into Mr. Mime-Galar as the former three are all unable to OHKO it in return and Corsola-Galar, its best switchin, cannot 2HKO it.

Choice Scarf was another item Mr. Mime-Galar could use amazingly. This item allowed it to reach those few faster Pokemon like Drakloak and Sneasel, and prevented it from being outsped by slower Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf, most notably Haunter and Rufflet. While this meant that Mr. Mime-Galar was able to get countered by certain Pokemon, it maintained solid power and functioned as more of a revenge killer. It was able to cripple these defensive switchins with Trick, which basically nullified a counter or check.

Another set, which was commonly used was its Rapid Spin set. Rapid Spin boosted Mr. Mime’s speed by one stage. This turned Mr. Mime-Galar into arguably the best cleaner and one of the best sweepers in the tier. Whilst this required a turn to setup to achieve the speed boost, it did not have the drawback of being locked into moves like the Scarf set. This meant it was much harder to play around and the combination of Eviolite and the speed boost rendered nearly all of its offensive checks obsolete. Hazard removal being limited in the tier also meant that its access to Rapid Spin was very valuable utility for many teams.

Mr. Mime-Galar did have two notable flaws, but these were not enough to justify keeping it in the tier.

Weakness to Hazards

Mr. Mime-Galar’s weakness to Stealth Rock in conjunction with the limited distribution of Defog would have limited its effectiveness, if it weren’t for the fact that it had Rapid Spin in its arsenal and could very viably use Heavy-Duty Boots to negate the damage of any entry hazards. Along with this, Mr. Mime-Galar would often trade some chip damage, in order to deal an attack which most of the metagame would struggle to switch into.

Poor Defensive Typing

While Mr. Mime-Galar had a very poor defensive typing, Mr. Mime-Galar was not frail by any means. The combination of its very respectable bulk of 50/65/95 and Eviolite made it somewhat difficult to revenge kill, considering it is an offensive threat.

Mime living common revenge killers

252 Atk Linoone-Galar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Mr Mime-Galar.: 200-236 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Mr Mime-Galar.: 180-212 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mr Mime-Galar.: 176-210 (73 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Drakloak Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mr Mime-Galar.: 176-210 (73 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With Mr. Mime-Galar gone, the next threats under the council’s radar are Corsola-Galar and Haunter. More news will be provided on those two in the near future, but for now please continue to provide your input on what you’d like to see happen next, and let us know of any concerns you may have!

 

[vooper]

NFE now has Sample Teams! We are still accepting more submissions so feel free to post your Sample Team submissions here!

 

[Ktütverde]

Hey people, after a long while of being puzzled by the current state of the meta, I would like to start the fireworks by talking about brokenness (oh no oh no don't). We currently have three pokemon which are arguably broken, and to no one's surprise, these are: Corsola-Galar, Haunter, Machoke (in alphabetical order).

If we were to choose only 1 pokémon among the "broken" ones, Corsola would be the most popular choice, as many discussions in the NFE room and discord show. Then would come haunter, since its almost unmatched speed and power tend to make it look more threatening than machoke who's main weakness is being slow and thus, more easily revenge killed by the aforementioned haunter notably. I would love to make a post about those three, but I am aware that it would be too long, and I know I can trust you all to keep the debate going and talk about everything else. So... Let me share my opinion: Machoke is the most broken one and needs to be dealt with.

Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch / Heavy Slam
- Bulk Up / Earthquake

Machoke is in my opinion the most broken NFE pokémon of the moment. Let me explain why.

Absolute lack of counterplay
To start with, it has literally 0 counterplay, which is far from being the case for Corsola and Haunter (Respectively: knock off machoke, hattrem, linoone, haunter, klang, roselia... ; piloswine, linoone, klang, munchlax). Anything that pretends to beat machoke first loses its eviolite in the process, and secondly, it loses to hattrem. Corsola, Gloom, Mareanie, Gurdurr, you name it. They are all put in a tough situation where they passively switch in and take damage from machoke, and then are blocked and threatened immediately by hattrem's bounce and psychic. Not only that, but hattrem can also healing wish machoke once its checks have been shut down.

Most NFE teams carry 2 pokémons to check machoke: a combination of corsola, hattrem and haunter (and the rarer gloom and rufflet). Needless to say, knock off is a massive nuisance and only corsola can switch into it; hattrem and haunter have to be played carefully and used to gain momentum via revenge killing. haunter is also forced to run dazzling gleam, or psychic which gives up the ability to catch machoke+linoone all in one for the slightly increased power against machoke.

Don't get me wrong: machoke has checks, but they barely count as such. They require machoke to be weakened, they can't switch on it and even if they can (corsola and gloom), they remain extremely passive and blocked by hattrem.


Freedom of Moveset and Spread
On top of that, machoke has a significant edge over any other NFE mons: it isn't limited by its movepool or EV spread at all. All you need is: close combat, knock off. Period. In practice, it will be running a bulky EV spread to tank hits, but theoretically, it can run anything and it's just a matter of time before all variants go mainstream. The ineffectiveness of fairies such as clefairy and togetic in this meta have already led to machokes being heavyslam-less, while the rarity of mareanie means Earthquake isn't much needed.

My favorite set is Bulkup+Bullet Punch machoke which is, imo, the most broken one. It simply prevents foes from sacking pokémons against machoke: would they try to sack a piloswine, pawniard, or another machoke on your own so they can bring hat or haunter for free: well, you can get to +3,4,5 or even 6 with bulkup and then remove faster foes with bullet punch:
252+ Atk Machoke Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Haunter: 74-88 (32 - 38%) -- 95.5% chance to 3HKO

While this remains more situational, machoke can also run:
-a flame orb to increase its damage output, notably bullet punch;
-Substitute to block stength sap;
-maximum speed to outpace hattrems that run enough HP to tank 3 night shade from corsola;
-even a jolly nature to solve the hattrem issue once and for all
-physically defensive to check piloswine and klang very well while still doing what it does
-specially defensive to lure hattrem and haunter which would try to KO it too soon.

All this sets work perfectly, because of machoke's natural bulk and power.


Splashability
There is simply no reason not to run Machoke. It is absolutely excellent, is the best way to make the corsola matchup easier thanks to the rarely distributed knock off, is impossible to revenge kill if healthy (only rufflet and specs hattrem can) since it beats hattrem and haunter 1V1 from full HP, is also an excellent check to piloswine and klang, as well as the best lead in the current tier, usually firing off knock offs early game and then picking up foes with closecombat+bullet punch mid/late-game.


Playing against Machoke
Machoke forces an insane amount of predictions throughout NFE games. Defensive "checks" like corsola are immensely pressured by Linoone and hattrem and will usually have to double out, at the risk of machoke staying in and re-using knock off quite safely. Offensive checks such as hattrem and haunter cannot switch on knock off and, when their trainer finds themselves too low on pokémons to afford sacking something else, they will have to cross fingers and click "send hattrem/haunter" and pray whatever entity is watching them from far above to make the machoke use close combat.


Final words
Machoke is, as far as I'm concerned, the most ridiculous pokémon of gen8 NFE and I'm looking forward adressing this issue especially since it wasn't in gen7. The main arguments which I brought up earlier, are its splashability, ability to beat pretty much anything 1v1, the insane pressure it exerts during entire games, and the surprise factor regarding its EVs and coverage moves.

I would also like you to talk about:
1°) how corsola and haunter interact with machoke as a broken trinity;
2°) whether corsola should stay WITH machoke to balance each other or if both should go;
3°) whether haunter is the actual top1 broken mon and why;
4°) which of these three are actually balanced now or will be soon via metagame development.

Thank you for reading and keep being who you are NFE players, you all are fantastic and I'm proud of being part of this wonderful community. See ya! :)

-ktut

 

[ArcticBreeze]

I definitely agree that Haunter and Machoke are Better than Gorsola in the Metagame (I assume that was the point u were trying to make), but i'd also like to say its for another factor. Gorsola is the center of the metagame; it shapes the whole metagame. Due to being this meta-defining it is, it ends up not being the best mon when building or battling, but the most influential when building. I believe that it is the councils responsibility to suspect Gorsola now or after NFE Open. Quick Bans are generally reserved for threats like Naganadel, Marshadow or to give an NFE Example Rhydon. While this is true and is good for the integrity of the smogon voting system, not giving the council to much power; I believe that most of the community would prefer a quickban. Several people most likely wont even ladder due to their confidence in Gorsola being voted banworthy. I would love to here someone who has a unique opinion on Gorsola.

tl;dr Gorsola is unhealthy, unwanted, and over centralizing. I would love it if the council took action very soon or after NFE Open is complete. Or I would like some clarification from the council that they are waiting until Pokemon Home.

Something I would like to see more discussion on is the rise of Post-Dynamax Rufflet. I am just going to make this short, it is honestly almost as bad as Gorsola. Eventually once people jump on the Rufflet train, which I have already seen; you will have to build around beating it and Piloswine will be almost required just to check it. Bronzor exists but that is one mon and loses to sub bulk up and does not appreciate banded CC or even the occasional Shadow Claw. If anyone would like to disagree with this pm me on Showdown or Discord.

 

[Simbo]

Ktut made a solid post on Machoke and why he thinks it's broken. I think current Machoke is also a suspectworthy threat, but not sure whether or not I'd smash ban if it was suspected.

I do think Haunter is the number 1 pokemon currently, and the most broken in the meta. Assuming there is a suspect before home, I'd personally want it to be Haunter, but I wouldn't be opposed to a Machoke suspect either.

Why Haunter?

Haunter has insane versatility in the metagame. In fact, it's probably the most varied Pokemon in what viable sets it can run well in the meta. From Trick Specs, Trick Scarf, Dbond Scarf, LO 4 attacks, LO 3 attacks and one utility move such as Will-O-Wisp or Substitute, and Evio WispHex, Haunter has a multitude of sets, all of which have different counterplay and let Haunter lure/bypass some of its counterplay. Couple that with the current gens reverse power creep, no Pursuit, a small selection of good speed control, and no Alolan Grimer and you have a massive threat which is virtually impossible to adequately switch into.

While Haunter does lack that OHKO power that nearly every offensive Pokemon in the tier wants; Eviolite + the natural bulk of Pokemon such as Machoke, Piloswine, Gurdurr, Gcors etc makes OHKOs very hard to achieve here, chipping said Pokemon enough for Haunter cleans/wallbreaking is not particularly difficult, especially when said Pokemon are also used to fill multiple offensive/defensive roles.

The standard VR comparison

The usual go through VR and see what Pokemon can actually switch into Haunter and which can situationally check some sets

Standard VR list shit

S rank

Corsola-Galar - Not a switchin, I suppose spdef can fish for a first turn Cursed Body disable but Corsola is neither a counter nor check.

A+ rank

Haunter - Doesn't count

Machoke - Cannot switch in. If Specs, Haunter needs at most 26% chip to kill with Psychic, not too difficult to achieve. Unboosted Haunter still 2HKOs with Psychic. Can be a check for non-Specs set if Evio is intact but Machoke is fairly easy to chip.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 272-322 (74.7 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (272, 276, 280, 282, 286, 288, 292, 296, 298, 302, 304, 308, 312, 314, 318, 322)

Piloswine - Not a switchin. Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs the standard 252 HP Eviolite set after rocks. The 252 HP set with some SpDef is a check and can switch in once against Specs Haunter and a few times against unboosted Haunter. However, all Piloswine sets lose to Evio WilloHex Haunter, especially if they switch in on Will-O-Wisp. Piloswine also does not appreciate switching into Trick. A situational check for most sets. Eball is also seeing usage for Piloswine, and both LO and Specs Eball 2HKO Pilo.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (181, 183, 186, 187, 190, 192, 195, 196, 198, 201, 202, 205, 207, 210, 211, 214)

252 SpA Haunter Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
Possible damage amounts: (196, 199, 201, 204, 205, 208, 211, 213, 216, 217, 220, 222, 225, 226, 229, 232)

252+ Atk burned Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Haunter: 79-93 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 84, 86, 87, 87, 88, 90, 90, 91, 92, 93)

A rank

Ferroseed - SpDef ferro can switch into Specs Shadow Ball once. However, every Ferro set hates Trick from either the Specs or Scarf set, both completely neuter ferro. It also outright loses to Evio Willohex.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 96-114 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (96, 97, 99, 99, 100, 102, 103, 103, 105, 106, 108, 108, 109, 111, 112, 114)

252 SpA Haunter Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 103-123 (35.2 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Possible damage amounts: (103, 105, 106, 108, 108, 109, 111, 112, 114, 115, 115, 117, 118, 120, 121, 123)

0 Atk burned Ferroseed Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Haunter: 51-60 (22 - 25.9%) -- 3.6% chance to 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (51, 51, 52, 52, 53, 54, 54, 55, 55, 56, 57, 57, 58, 58, 59, 60)

0 Atk burned Ferroseed Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Haunter: 58-69 (25.1 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (58, 59, 60, 60, 60, 61, 62, 63, 63, 64, 65, 66, 66, 67, 68, 69)

Linoone-Galar - Not a switchin but a good check.

Sneasel - Not a switchin but a good check.

A- ranks

Fraxure - Not a switchin, decent check, Choice Specs Dazzling Gleam OHKOs but it can tank any other one hit from Haunter.

Gloom - Not a switchin or check, loses to Willohex, hates Trick, eats Gloom.

Hattrem - Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs standard Eviolite sets. Hattrem can tank a hit from any other set and OHKO in return. However, chipping Hatt down enough for unboosted Shadow Ball to kill is not hard.

252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Hattrem: 206-246 (64.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (206, 210, 212, 216, 216, 218, 222, 224, 228, 230, 230, 234, 236, 240, 242, 246)

Klang - SpDef is a decent switchin, although all defensive sets absolutely hate Trick. Evio Willohex can beat SpDef Resttalk set up Klang though, Klang relies on Sleep Talk rolls to win that 1v1 but it's pretty good.

Mareanie - No

Rufflet - Not a switchin, Scarf is a decent check against non-Scarf Haunter sets and the Shadow Ball immunity is nice but Scarf is a check at best.

B+ rank

Charjabug - Can threaten non-Sub sets with Twave but not a check or counter

Gurdurr - SpDef Defog Payback/Spdef BU Payback is a check, but other than that set, not really

Morgrem - Threatens Twave but not a switchin or check

Pawniard - Good check, although Specs Shadow Ball is a clean 2HKO and it also hates switching in on Wisp

B rank

Clefairy - Nein

Drakloak - Not a switchin but good check to non-Scarf sets.

Duosion - Nein, although Duosion can tank one unboosted Haunter hit and revenge kill if needed
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Duosion: 242-288 (72.4 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (242, 246, 248, 252, 254, 258, 260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288)

Lampent - Nein, Scarf can check non-Scarf Haunter sets though

Palpitoad - Not really, no

Raboot - Can't switch in, Sucker Punch beats Scarf and Specs sets, although you have to get multiple 50/50s right against Substitute sets, not particularly reliable

Roselia - Not really no, Specs Psychic 2HKOs even full SpDef Roselia, which isnt a set, and it hates Trick. Sub Willohex can muscle past it too.

Thwackey - No, Scarf is a check to non-Scarf Haunter though

Togetic - Nein

Trapinch - Nein

Too lazy to go below B, so I'll only talk about the notable Pokemon below this rank. If you think I missed a notable check, tag me on Discord

Carkol - SpDef/Bulky Carkol is actually a pretty decent Haunter switchin and check. It hates Trick like every other bulky Haunter check, but it's solid as a switchin.

Munchlax - Hates Trick (you seeing a trend?), but can switch in to non-Specs sets and tank hits. Unfortunately, Specs Sludge Wave 3HKOs and Fire Punch fails to get the 2HKO, so it's not great

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 163-193 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (163, 165, 168, 169, 171, 174, 175, 177, 178, 181, 183, 184, 187, 189, 190, 193)

Vullaby - Hates Trick, Specs Dazzle is a clean 2HKO after Rocks

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 152-180 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (152, 154, 156, 158, 160, 162, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180)

As you can see from that list, there are a few Haunter checks, most of which rely on Speed to revenge kill/force Haunter out, but all the different Haunter sets have favourable matchups against most of the meta from just a purely 1v1 perspective. Bulky walls hate Trick, some hate Specs coverage, and some lose to the Evio Willohex set, and offensive counterplay can't switch in.

All of the above calcs also fail to factor hazards (in most cases, there were a few Pokemon I used Rocks damage for) and most importantly, the fact that Haunter has 5 teammates and that most of the top rank Pokemon have multiple defensive roles, which makes it even easier to achieve late-game Haunter cleans.

Most defensive checks need to stay healthy to act as Haunter checks. Keeping Piloswine, Ferroseed, Klang, bulky Machoke/Gurdurr sets etc healthy when they also need to check other Pokemon/get up hazards/spread Knock etc is very difficult, relying on keeping them healthy enough to tank potentially Specs hits is not easy, and it doesn't help that most hate Trick and some outright lose to Evio Willohex.

Offensive counterplay, especially Speed-based counterplay, doesn't need health to beat Haunter, but they cannot switch in. Relying purely on offensive checks means you have to pick one when Haunter gets a shot in against a bulkier wall of yours, similar situation that most teams right now have against Rufflet, although Rufflet is atleast easier to wear down and has the 20% chance to do nothing. It's not an ideal situation to be in.

Overall, very difficult to account for all the possible sets Haunter can run, both in builder and during a game, especially the Trick and the Evio Willohex sets, which are built to cripple/beat standard defensive Haunter counterplay, while also considering and attempting to deal with just normal Specs Haunter.

A bit about home and why Haunter should be the only pre-home suspect

It's unclear what exactly Home will add to the NFE metagame. Most of us assume Knock, Toxic, Roost, Defog etc distribution will return, and the Gen 1 and 7 starters may return too. In my opinion, increased Knock and Toxic distribution only makes Haunter better, since it would be far easier to cripple/Knock defensive walls that Haunter can't immediately break. It makes sense to me to suspect a Pokemon that is suspectworthy right now and won't be changed much by Home; it arguably gets better. I wouldn't be opposed to a Machoke suspect, but I think metagame shifts post-Home may make Machoke slightly less centralising. It would still be a suspectworthy mon, but there's enough question marks in my mind to make waiting til Home valid for Machoke.

For Gcors, I think any suspect pre-Home would be retarded, assuming Home is what we expect. Increased Knock and Toxic distribution will affect the viability of defensive sets a lot I think, and Gcors in my opinion isn't banworthy in the current metagame. Defensive sets have adequate counterplay for an S-rank Pokemon, and while the offensive sets look quite centralising and could push it over the edge, I haven't seen enough of them in tour play to determine whether or not they are insane or if they haven't been adapted to yet. Too many question marks. If Gcors was suspected and banned pre-Home, I would probably support a re-suspect post-Home if Home is what we expect.

If anyone does want to hear why I think Gcors isn't banworthy right now, make a post, outline your arguments on why it is banworthy, and I'll clap back. Looking at this discussion thread, the only relevant pro-ban post is from quags, which was made in Mime meta. Arctic threw a couple of buzzwords and made a valid point about building, but that's not much. If you wanna change the status quo, make a post, and I'll clap back. It's not on me to predict your arguments.

In terms of qbing multiple Pokemon or suspecting multiple Pokemon in succession, Dexit NFE does not have many Pokemon. We have like 42 unbanned NFEs iirc and maybe like 10-15 'viable LCs'. Realistically, we have about 25 Pokemon that see semi-consistent to consistent play. Being too banhappy is not a good move with so few Pokemon, it's better to take things slowly.

But yh, that's my take on current problem mons. Love to hear what other people think, feel free to clap back. Especially interested to hear what vooper thinks is the most suspectworthy mon pre-Home, would love to see a forum post on that.

 

[ShuckleDeath]

Hello thought I would invest some time to put in a little bit of my ideas and experiences.

As far as "innovations" I only really have one I feel that really warrants the effectiveness needed to be brought up.


Onix @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
Impish Nature
- Head Smash
- Body Press
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Onix is actually a very solid Pokemon in the metagame and this set, in particular, is really good at the job it is supposed to do, which is checking physical attackers and in particular, Rufflet. Its speed investment lets it outpace adamant max speed Rufflet and Pawnaird this actually allows Onix to easily switch in and threaten a OHKO on both of them. Rufflets adamant Choice Band boosted Close Combat does not OHKO Onix as it is very physically bulky. I should also point out that making Onix jolly to invest more EVs in defense isn't optimal as you actually hit a higher number running impish with less EV investment. Head Smash and Body Press keep it from being very passive and actually make Onix a bit threatening. It is also as reliable Stealth Rock user you can have with Hattrem running around everywhere. While bulky Hattrem can easily take two Head Smashes it does not want to be repeatedly switching into them and Choice Specs Hattrem of course can be 2HKOed by Head Smash. This is easily one of the best Rock-types we have and should honestly see a lot more use, besides just me.

Diglett: C -> UR completely outclassed by Trapinch except in the extremely rare scenario where it's able to set up with sub hone claws. UR it.

I know this was in another thread but I will just say this here. Diglett as an offensive trapper is defiantly outclassed Trapinch, but I still feel it has a very key niche as a Stealth Rock user on offensive teams.


Diglett @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Memento
- Final Gambit

First off Final Gambit is more filler than anything so we can ignore that as jolly max attack can also be used here with the same effect. What matters here is the high speed and Arena Trap. Diglett can reliably set Stealth Rock as it prevents Hattrem from switching in and can oftentimes also get off its Memento. This obviously means it can make an effective suicide lead, but actually doesn't need to necessarily as it is fast enough to outpace and Stealth Rock on numerous Pokemon. While it is not as metagame defining as Trapinch, even by a long shot, this is still a viable niche that should not be overlooked.

A lot of people are weighing in on the big three so I will weigh in on the one I think is most deserving of a suspect test.


If you ask me Corsola should be the first Pokemon we should consider as far as suspects are concerned. Its versatility can not be underestimated as not only is it the biggest defensive Pokemon in the NFE metagame its Weak Armor Calm Mind set is actually surprisingly really potent. Even if you ignore it's Calm Mind sets actually switching in and breaking Corsola is incredibly difficult. Between Night Shade and Will-o-Wisp it leaves very few "easy" switch-ins as with the low HP stats here in NFE Pokemon are often times taking a 3HKO from a Pokemon they have no hope in hell of 2HKOing and this is only further escalated by Burn damage. While Pokemon like Munchlax can switch in and be relatively unaffected by standard Corsola it, in turn, is ineffective at doing anything back. Taunt and Toxic can be very effective in shutting down Corsola, but I have to agree with Monsareeasy in that Hattrems relevancy makes this feat hard in general.

Honestly I could go on and on about all three Pokemon, ( ), but it is obvious to see that all three seriously need suspect tested and it is really only the order in which we should do it that should be debated here.

 

[WMAR]

I am here to bring some innovation of my own. I am the resident NFE Builder WMAR bringing some heat to share since i lost to a coinflip in NFE OPEN


First we have gen 8's version of


Remoraid @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Scald
- Flamethrower / Thunder Wave / Ice Beam

Lets say Moody is bullshit but unlike in OU, its not banworthy. you seriously need luck for this mon to work. I love Remoraid because of Moody and im so happy its not overwhelming since its literally luck based. first you need to boost your speed, then bulk, then attacks, but stars need to align to get this to work. I use mostly Thunder wave so I can get more cheese with para.


Linoone-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Body Press
- Taunt
- Parting Shot

So this is a set i want more people to give a shot. Linoone's issues are the fact it cant hit Dark types. This set removes that and adds more bulk. This linoone actually lives a Mach Punch from Gurdurr from full and removes the eviolite and people always predict a switch. No one leaves Linoone on a fighting type lmao, im just a rouge.


Piloswine @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat / Oblivious
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Superpower

This mon removes its utility for straight power. Really all it is. Threatens bulky cores except broken

 

[Jett]

Before I make my post, I’d like to say the discussion on the big three have been great so far and I hope it continues that way.

The Bad, The Worse and The Ugly

​

NFE is currently a very top heavy metagame, which mainly revolves around three Pokemon, Machoke, Haunter, and Corsola-Galar. In the current state of the meta, I believe that all three are definitely suspect worthy and the issue then becomes, which one deserves to be suspected first. Below you can find my reasoning for why each one is problematic in the meta and my overall opinion on them.

The Bad

• Machoke has almost zero defensive counterplay: In my eyes, Machoke only has two reliable defensive switch-ins, Corsola-Galar and Gloom. Neither of these appreciate switching into Knock Off and the very common Hattrem stops both of them from recovering with Strength Sap. Flame Orb is less common, but allows Machoke to net 2HKOes on the aforementioned defensive threats.
• Machoke is super splashable: Machoke can fit on pretty much any type of team, except Stall which is unviable in NFE. Again, this is attributed to the limited distribution of Knock Off, making one of the most reliable Pokemon at crippling Corsola-Galar, and the combination of its amazing offensive and defensive stats, which allow it to win almost all one on one situations.
• Machoke has a surprising amount of options: With access to an amazing movepool, and a solid stat distribution, Machoke can be used a PhysDef Tank, SpDef Tank, or a faster wallbreaker. Close Combat and Knock Off are the only mandatory moves, and this allows it to run all sorts of filler moves such as Bullet Punch, Earthquake, Heavy Slam, Facade, Substitute, Bulk Up, Counter, Encore and Rest.

Crystal’s Verdict: The interaction Machoke and Corsola have, is extremely unhealthy on the NFE metagame, and it currently feels like these two are only somewhat manageable because of each other. Whilst I would vote ban in a Machoke suspect test, I don’t believe it should be suspected first, since Machoke has always had issues dealing with offensive counterplay, although this has been significantly reduced due to the Galar cut.

The Worse

• Haunter is extremely versatile: I’d argue Haunter is the most versatile Pokemon in the tier as of current. It’s able to pull off a multitude of sets, since its able to be effective holding a Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Life Orb and Eviolite. Haunter’s Choice sets can render one of its defensive checks obsolete with Trick, whilst its Life Orb and Eviolite sets can punish switchins with Will-O-Wisp or Substitute.
• Haunter has limited offensive and defensive counterplay: Following on from the first point, Haunter’s many sets all have different checks and counters. For instance SpDef Klang is one of the most reliable switch-ins to Choiced Haunter sets but loses to the Eviolite Hex set. Its Choice Scarf set’s offensive counterplay is pretty much limited to Toxic Orb Linoone-Galar and Sucker Punch Pawniard. It is very hard to predict correctly which set Haunter is and preserve the correct Pokemon with enough health to deal with it in the late-game, since without Pursuit, Haunter can effectively use a “hit and run” playstyle.
• Haunter’s late-game potential is too good: Haunter has insane cleaning potential, which is unrivaled by any other Pokemon in the tier. Many of Haunter’s switch-ins have to switch into multiple other threats on the team, and with how poor hazard removal is, it is very easy to get Pokemon in range of Haunter’s attacks, or remove their Eviolite. I think its Choice Specs set is by far the worst offender of this, as it often just gets to click Shadow Ball and deal over half to pretty much everything.

Crystal’s Verdict: I think Haunter is the most problematic Pokemon in our tier and we should look to suspect test it first. Trying to account for Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Life Orb and Eviolite makes it an absolute menace to deal with, especially when at team preview, when you are often unable to tell which set it is (which I don’t find to be particularly the case for Machoke and Corsola-Galar). I think that Choice Specs in particularly is extremely difficult to deal with because the extra damage provided lets it both break past expected switch-ins and clean much better.

The Ugly

• There is little reason to choose other walls when Corsola-Galar exists: I don’t see much of a reason to use other defensive walls outside of Corsola, as they aren’t as effective as Corsola is when it comes to role compression, nor are they better than it in terms of bulk. This is extremely telling because despite most teams opting for multiple Corsola checks, it is still by far the most used defensive wall. This leads me to my next point.
• Corsola-Galar has biggest teambuilding influence: Every NFE team at the moment has been built to stack multiple checks or ways of dealing with Corsola. It is one of the biggest reasons for the rise in usage of the Hattrem and Linoone-Galar core, and the over centralisation of the top 10 Pokemon or so, in the tier, which all either match up favourably against Corsola, or can deal with its checks. This is probably the main reason why people don’t believe Corsola to be too much of a problem in battle.
• Corsola-Galar is an insane late-game wincon: Calm Mind, Iron Defense has been gaining some popularity as of recent and that set absolutely disgusting. I think the combination of this set and the standard PhysDef set push it over the edge. Due to its insane natural bulk in conjunction with Strength Sap, its able to easily setup on many Pokemon in a very physical based tier. I’ve seen two sets work very well; Weak Armor which gets around revenge killers relatively reliably and Rest as a means to not lose to Toxic.

Crystal’s Verdict: As of now, I think the development of Corsola’s checks and counters cannot be considered as healthy metagame development, as teambuilding right now is way too restrictive. That being said, I don’t think Corsola should be suspected first. Home dropping soon shouldn’t really be factored into what should be suspected now, but it definitely looks worse when Knock Off and Toxic distribution increases, and if it were to get banned before Home, we’d need to resuspect it, which is messy.

TL;DR I not only think that Machoke, Haunter and Corsola-Galar are suspect worthy, but I would vote ban if any of them received a suspect test. I’m currently leaning towards Haunter, as the Pokemon which should be suspected first and I think it only gets better with Home coming out soon.

 

[SBPC]

First nfe post in awhile, neat.

Anyways I was attacked by a wild flock of pidgey as Crystalites's dead spirit appeared in my room at 4 am during a thunderstorm to inform me that the meta is horrid, and I should write a post about it, so here we are, me filling the shoes of our fallen TL.

I'll start with addressing his post, and I think a huge problem with the mons mentioned in Crystal's post is that they seem to limit eachother just as much as they do the meta. Machoke has no switchins because they all lose to haunter, Haunter can't be stopped easily because Gorsola/Machoke beat all the checks easily, Gorsola incredibly centralizes teambuilding because not only is it hard to break, but the best breakers to it are all handled by insert broken set here. It's a repeating cycle that indefinitely ends up in you using the three yourself, as they are their own best answers.

But still, meta still has a way to function, with pokemon like Hattrem being semi-sufficent in repressing Gorsola's support moves, Klang being a half-decent Haunter switchin, and so forth. However, I think something really not talked about is the prominence of Rufflet. Despite the unreliability of hustle, this thing has a stupidly high potenial to beat literally everything in the meta hands down. Flying/Fighting is bonkers coverage, and with uturn, it's switchins are extremely limited in number, and offensive counterplay is mitigated further with scarf giving it a pretty hard to match speed tier, or sub being able to seal the deal on many potenial switchin mons such as g-corsola. The thing is, Rufflet has few reliable answers left with the galar cuts removing some of nfe's best answers from the past, and what remains has to deal with the incredibly centralizing presence of Haunter and Machoke, who cover any known out.

So I've given a problem, but no solution. My verdict and supposed answer to this issue would be to Ban Machoke. Machoke, of the three, seems to be the best and most oppressive of the trio, lacking any consistent switchin bar gloom and gurdurr, the former of which is handled rather easily after a knock off by our array of special attackers such as Haunter, Lampent, or Duosion, and when facing the Guts set, it can be taken out from a pretty decent range via Facade,
((252+ Atk Guts Machoke Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Eviolite Gloom: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO))
and finds a hard time to heal up with sap due to Hattrem's prominence. As for Gurdurr, it lacks any meaningful recovery bar using Rest, and leaves it open to be chipped down if not completely giving free entry to another teammate of Machoke's to be in the lane for wrecking havoc. Rufflet should be kept close eye on as well, as I believe it could be potenially unhealthy once the meta doesn't hard focus into handling the current big 3.

Anyways, I'm going to continue trying to fix my sleep schedule. SB out.

 

[Cheryl.]

Haunter @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Psychic
- whatever (Sub, Wisp, Taunt, DBond, all busted)

So I know I'm retired from NFE and would never want to play this meta until everyone gets their shit together and fixes it but I see posts wanting to ban Machoke before Haunter and it honestly just baffles me. Don't get me wrong, Choke is pretty broken with it's easyness of use and how there's pretty much no good defensive checks besides broken Gorsola but, HAUNTER IS NOT JUST AS OR MORE BANNABLE?! Nah fuck you, Ghost STAB is fucking idiotically easy to spam in this tier, everything has a chance of getting 2HKOed unless you're Munchlax (dicks), Piloswine, SpD Klang (the only alright check and even then has to rely on RestTalk), or a resist. Pilo is a garbage defensive check because it has no good recovery, so you're basically switching in once and now you suck balls. It's even worse if they run Wisp so you get cucked by burn. I shouldn't have to mention that Haunter has practically no punishment to being used as Pursuit is gone and it can't be trapped (which is also kind of retarded but made up for because Trapinch is not great), so once you get that switchin, everything will die and it can just switch right back out. It has the coverage for everything in this meta with a free moveslot on LO sets to lure and take advantage of whatever your team wants. Specs may have to run Trick or 4 attacks but it's even more braindead because as I said, Ghost STAB is broken and it's fucking Haunter. This thing ruins any sort of building the most out of all of the three bannable mons imo because it simply cannot be countered or checked for that matter. You will have to run a faster mon (Sneasel, Scarfer, Drakloak) paired with a Piloswine or pray that your Munchlax doesn't get chipped to death by poison and hazards with the chance of it's Eviolite being Knocked as well. If you don't do that or run Klang you will most likely get fucked with no chance of getting out unless the Haunter dies or the Haunter player fucks up. You could say that Choke restricts building more but cmon man at least Choke sometimes has to predict while Haunter really doesn't. They're both ridiculous anyway but please y'all get on your asses and ban Haunter first, or do both at the same time.

but yeah I just wanted an excuse to get notifs from this thread while on my retirement so ye, fix your meta!!!

 

[Ktütverde]

Hi again, this time I'm here to share my two favorite (and consistent) teams and make the case for some cores, unsets and unmons:

1) The Wrong Bird

importable

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Payback
- Mach Punch
- Defog

Rufflet (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Aerial Ace
- U-turn

Linoone-Galar @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Facade
- Taunt
- Parting Shot

Piloswine @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 188 HP / 136 Atk / 168 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard

Drakloak @ Choice Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- U-turn

Haunter @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Energy Ball

Description and sets explanation

Description:
Here is a team originally centered around defog gurdurr aka the wrong bird+CB ruff. Defog gurdurr is an excellent partner for ruff because it safely switches on piloswine and defogs its rocks away and secondly, because it hard stops klang would it try to setup on rufflet. Piloswine compliments the core very well by providing solid spdef bulk to check haunter notably, as well as the mandatory stealth rocks. Linoone is standard role compression against corsola haunter and fast mons. Finally, haunter was added as a secondary wallbreaker with no opportunity cost and taking advantage of pilo being removed from the game by ruff as well as a way to pressure corsola which often 1v1s rufflet with cursed body+hustle misses. Drakloak works much like haunter, and despite being somewhat weak, the wallbreaking duo of ruff+haunter usually take care of its checks so you end up clicking shadowball late game. Also it's the second mon faster than haunter with linoone which is extremely valuable given how stupid haunter is.

Sets:
-piloswine's spread lives 2 shadowball from specs haunter after rocks; attack EVs to 2HKO haunter with iciclecrash+iceshard after stealth rock, 2 rounds of lifeorb and you being burned.
-haunter runs energyball because piloswine is the biggest threat to rufflet/haunt/drakloak, able to beat the former and the latter with iceshard.

Pros of the team:
-it is very well adapated to the current metagame, featuring 5 ways of dealing wich machoke (everything except piloswine) as well as 1 solid haunter switchin+2 faster mons. Corsola is also handled easily by linoone+2 ghosts.
-I consider it as a NFE staple of mine, featuring some of the best mons (pilo, lin and haunter) as well as more niche anti-meta mons (gurdurr, rufflet and drakloak), and being extremely easy to pilot due to the redundancy offensively- and defensively speaking.

2) Dancefloor Rufflet

importable

Piloswine @ Light Clay
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Icicle Spear
- Reflect
- Light Screen

Hattrem (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Mystical Fire
- Giga Drain

Fraxure @ Eviolite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Superpower
- Substitute

Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch

Rufflet (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 240 HP / 120 Atk / 16 Def / 44 SpD / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Agility
- Substitute
- Aerial Ace

Morgrem (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 128 SpD / 88 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Dark Pulse

Description and sets explanation

Description:
This team is a ton of fun. Using dual screens in NFE is tricky to say the least, but I believe I optimized it enough to make it easy of use. Basically, you are leading piloswine, which is fast enough to outpace all machoke and hat variants, select the screen you need vs your opponent's lead since +2 def/spdef piloswine is unkillable, then click the second one, then pilo dies and you start setting up with what you like. Once the oppo manages to kill your sweeper and you run out of screens, prankster morgrem fixes that and you start again.

The team was built as a way of making this rufflet set I made viable, and it hasn't disappointed me yet. A combination of two screens setter+hattrem means that rufflet's sweeping opportunities can't be better, for its bulk will be doubled and rocks not on the field if hat is played well. Ruff will usually be the last sweeper to be sent since it is the most likely to sweep late game thanks to agility and teammates who have weakened its checks.

Sets:
-rufflet's spread looks complicated but it's not. Attack: enough to OHKO maxHP sneasel at +1; Defense: to make substitutes that live maxAtk piloswine's icicle crash after two bulkups and reflect; Speed: to outpace support Hattrem (the one with a 301 HP stat); rest in Spdef.

-piloswine is max speed so as to outspeed specs hattrem or fast machokes. Icicle spear helps vs opposing HO leads such as drillbur and diglett. Usually the outcome of HO vs HO is determined by which lead beat the other one. Can be icicle crash if you are more realistic about the viability of HO in NFE. Oblivious to block Linoone's taunt. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nfe-1054762711-irfxttsqq7jt4nis7yfu0f6avzs0ft1pw: somehow the 4 first turns of this game completely explain what this pilo set does, truly epic

-machoke is jolly so that hattrem can't stop it easily.
-fraxure's speed allows it to outpace toxic orb linoone at +2
-morgrem is faster than support hat and spdef so haunter can't OHKO it through screens even after rocks. Darkpulse with 40 EVs always ohkoes haunter from full.

Pros of the team:
-maximizes rufflet's sweeping potential by pretty much rendering null normal counterplay: corsola, klang, piloswine, faster threats.
-also maximizes machoke's sweeping ability
-surprise factor

I hope you liked the teams, feel free to use them -they are super fun!-, and I hope we together will manage to keep this thread alive the way we have been doing lately. See you soon! :)

-Ktut

 

[ArcticBreeze]

Salty Post about why Rufflet SHOULD be MURDERED from gen 8 NFE

BAN RUFFLET AND PUT THIS IN S(ik this isnt the vr)

How are u supposed to win when making a whole game plan around beating one pokemon and still lose a mon or 2 to it. Hat pressures u to not use rocks and even with rocks u can easily get multiple kills with this. There is no counters the only checks are ice shard and sr and it missing.... But when hat makes it harder to get up rocks and only 2 good mons get shard how do u beat it. I am legit serious. Atleast on haunter u can go hard spd klang the first 2 times without worrying, same with ferroseed. I saw this thing at preview and knew I lost the whole damn set. The team i was using was great. 2 tour wins and good on the ladder. This is until u meet the stupid bird with no switchins. I really want this thing QBed and yes im being salty af in this post, but there is also a clear problem. I almost want to quit nfe until this mon goes its that bad for me. Its not just me either, im sure of that. I dont get whats so hard this mon clearly is not ok for the metagame. Im sure everyone would prefer a rufflet-less metagame. There is no reason to provide evidence for why its banworthy im sure you all know how terrible this thing is for the metagame. Counterplay just barely exists I could see eviolite rufflet scarf haunt piloswine ferroseed being spammed on teams just because of this stupid mon this just isnt even ok at all.