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New/Creative movesets — Little Cup edition!
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Yeah I played against you on the ladder and your set, while surprising, was not very effective.
However, I have a great set that I've been using for a little over two months now.
Croagunk @ Eviolite
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 212 HP / 36 Atk / 116 Def / 28 SAtk / 116 SDef
Brave Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Vacuum Wave
That's right, Bulk Up Croagunk. Standard Croagunk always got slammed by Timburr. I tried things like HP Psychic but it didn't really work. But, with Bulk up I am not only able to defeat opposing Timburr with ease but I'm also able to sweep through teams with Sucker Punch and Drain Punch.
However, I have a great set that I've been using for a little over two months now.
Croagunk @ Eviolite
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 212 HP / 36 Atk / 116 Def / 28 SAtk / 116 SDef
Brave Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Vacuum Wave
That's right, Bulk Up Croagunk. Standard Croagunk always got slammed by Timburr. I tried things like HP Psychic but it didn't really work. But, with Bulk up I am not only able to defeat opposing Timburr with ease but I'm also able to sweep through teams with Sucker Punch and Drain Punch.
Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 76 HP / 76 Atk / 200 Def / 36 SDef / 80 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Hi Jump Kick
- Hidden Power [Psychic]
- U-turn
- Knock Off
HP psychic makes you have one less stat point, that explains the awkward EV set
it lures in Croagunk so well lol
also hjk hits like a truck and knock off and u-turn are cool supporting moves
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 76 HP / 76 Atk / 200 Def / 36 SDef / 80 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Hi Jump Kick
- Hidden Power [Psychic]
- U-turn
- Knock Off
HP psychic makes you have one less stat point, that explains the awkward EV set
it lures in Croagunk so well lol
also hjk hits like a truck and knock off and u-turn are cool supporting moves
Purrloin @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
68 HP / 220 Def / 220 SDef
Careful Nature (+SpD -SpA)
- Swagger
- Foul Play
- Thunder Wave
- Sunny Day / Any other move
This thing is hilarious. I used one on a gimmicky sun team I had and it was super fun to use. You use Swagger first, which confuses the enemy and doubles its Attack stat. Then you 1-2HKO them with Foul Play (which uses the enemy's Attack stat to calculate damage). The remaining two moves are purely filler, and can be whatever you want.
This set (IMO) should not be used on a serious team though. Purrloin does not have awesome stats, and this set sort of relies on confusion incapacitating the opponent. If they snap out of confusion before Purrloin eliminates them, they can easily sweep at +2.
Axew (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Dual Chop
- X-Scissor
- Superpower
An Axew choice set isn't used much as the Dragon Dance set,I've still tested this set before and it isn't even that bad.Use Dual Chop if you think that can also KO the opponent cause using Outrage Would be useless.Superpower new move for Axew it can only learn it in BW2,it's great for beating steel types which most axews couldn't do in BW1.X-Scissor,idk I didn't know what to use for the last move lol.
Doesn't it get zenbutt, and if so wouldn't that be much better? Personally I use zenbutt on my scraggy for its ability to smack croagunk, and seeing as you are running hjk I assume you're ok with 90 accuracy.
Golgi Body said:
Then it's not that good, is it? While I think Prankster TW isn't bad at all, Purrloin is outclassed as an annoyer by Prankster Murkrow who has better defensive stats, Confuse Ray, actual offensive presence and access to reliable recovery. So I wouldn't use Purrloin over Murkrow.
First things first: That's not the way EV's work on LC; the best spread is the one listed on site: 68 HP / 220 Atk / 220 Spe. You're missing HP points.
Second, Choice Band and Choice Specs are usually not good in LC because the difference in power with LO is negligible; 1.3 vs 1.5 in such small numbers often give decimal numbers and they're rounded up (or down, I'm not sure) to the same digit.
Third, 16 Spd isn't THAT good because you're outsped by Scarf Snover, Dratini after a Dragon Dance, even unboosted Murkrow and Misdreavus whose STAB moves aren't resisted by Dragon-types (or burn you in Missy's case). You really can't afford loosing to these threats unless you're sweeping and they've been removed (specially Scarf Snover), if so~ you can just use the standard set with a LO over Eviolite for sheer power. If you intend to use this as a wallbreaker, then just use a LO for the reasons stated above; that way you won't give a free set-up turn to anything. Add protect over X-Scissor and... yes, you have the same set on-site with LO over Eviolite.
And for Chieliee's set; the thing is that you outspeed most Croagunk for a clean OHKO. I haven't tested it but I think it would be good for teams based around SS Clamperl or SS Shellder, maybe teams who can't afford many SR weak pokemons (all of the checks you mentioned are Fire-types) like Hail-teams (not very common, indeed). Anyway, in a Meta dominated by Sand and ground-types, and the many Fire-types to check Croagunk, I think HP Psychic Mienfoo has lost its niche (if it had any at all). At the time it was posted, the meta was different; but I still don't think it was very good... Surprise factor, maybe?
Going to dump this here, this murkrow is my unique set which has been destroying people who would normally expect to counter it:
Murkrow @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Insomnia
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 SAtk / 36 Spd
Rash Nature
- Brave Bird
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave
- Sucker Punch
16 speed scarf outspeeds most scarfers, and the ev's give it muuuuuch more power than normal scarfkrow. Also, just going to mention that it can still outspeed +1 scraggy, which is one of scarfkrow's most important jobs.
Murkrow @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Insomnia
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 SAtk / 36 Spd
Rash Nature
- Brave Bird
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave
- Sucker Punch
16 speed scarf outspeeds most scarfers, and the ev's give it muuuuuch more power than normal scarfkrow. Also, just going to mention that it can still outspeed +1 scraggy, which is one of scarfkrow's most important jobs.
Purrloin @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
68 HP / 220 Def / 220 SDef
Careful Nature (+SpD -SpA)
- Swagger
- Foul Play
- Thunder Wave
- Sunny Day / Any other move
Wouldn't sub do well on this instead of a weather move to allow it to further stall pokes and sub when they fail to attack u?
Yeah, a moveset of Swagger / Foul Play / Substitute / Encore works a whole lot better. Encore stops Murkrow's Subs from beating you, as well as forces any healers from stopping your annoyingness. Sub is of course to scout for confusion and to prevent status. Leftovers are needed too, to recover off the Subs
Or an oran berry
Leftovers are something that should be completely ignored in almost all situations. It provides little to no *actual* increase in bulk - 6% of the average life being ~22 = 22(.06) = 1.32 truncates to 1. In order to get a Leftovers recovery of 2hp/turn you'd need to have 34+ life, a number which Wailmer, who has the largest Base life stat in LC, does not reach. (I was off in this because Leftovers and other recovery is not truncated, it is rounded to the closest whole number. Regardless 2 HP is still very low and Munchlax and wailmer are the only two mons off the top my head to even reach that much recovery). In every situation Eviolite is a better defensive item as it will provide significantly more than 1-3 extra HP to your mon. Oran berry is significantly better because 10hp (with ~22 being the average life in LC) is roughly Half of a mons health - coincidentally, when it triggers. In this case, on Purrloin I still have to say not running eviolite is dumb. With full investment, you're reaching 13/14 in defensive stats. With an eviolite your defenses reach an "acceptable" 19/21. Those are VERY low values on a *dark* type mon. Which brings me to my next point: it's typing prevents it from even pretending like it could be a viable sub stall. Fighting is a very common attack type, which purrloin is weak too and quite honestly can do nothing to in return (Murkrow has SE Flying to scare off fighters, for example). Dark's resists include itself, ghost and immunity to psychic. Going down the list: A resistance to sucker punch is decent, but with at most 21 def, it will still hurt assuming its coming off a half way offensive mon. A resistance to ghost might net you a switch in on Misdreavus, who almost always runs a super effective HP Fighting along side her STAB for perfect coverage, and the immunity to Psychic might let you switch into an Abra. A neutrality or weakness to literally every other type, and terrible defensive stats and just barely subpar attacking stats neutor any chance Purrloin has of being a viable mon - even with a monster of an ability such as Prankster. Other dark types like Murkrow and even Pawniard make up for their Dark typing with a secondary typing and/or Absurd stats. Pawniard has one of the highest attacks in the whole meta, while murkrow can easily hit 18 attack while still netting the covetted 19 speed teir.
The point I'm getting at, and i dont mean to be harsh, is that you can tweak that set all you want and the only thing it will do is maybe make a hippopotas switch back in after drilbur OHKO's it outside of sand. Or it might make a Scarf snover miss a blizzard. Priority weather changing is powerful, especially when sand is as scary as it is, but this is not the way to go about it. I don't like making posts like this cause I know it stifles the creativity of our playerbase which is the #1 opposite way to go about getting a more posting forum, but I strongly believe we as a teir should stop trying to make obviously bad mons decent. That set can literally be slapped onto Murkrow like iss said (murkrow gets Raindance, unsure of sunny day). Cottonnee can do a decent sub seed set if you really want Sun for some reason. Would it work? I honestly don't know, but i can say it has a much stronger chance of working because the mon it's on isn't utter garbage to begin with. Like I said. I know this posts a little harsh, but I'm not going after any individual, its just purrloin is not worth our time.
edit: since this was necrobumped, I'm just commenting on a few things on this page of posts:
HP Psychic mienfoo would run HP Psychic for the same reason HP Ice mienfoo ran HP Ice: It lures and kills a counter. I don't think croagunk is as popular as it once was and I honestly wouldn't run that set unless i was counter teaming. It lets you run HJK on a scraggy, for example, using that mienfoo to lure in croagunk and KOing it. I'm assuming HP psychic OHKOs or at least does a sizable chunk - I feel the sets a bit outdated so I really don't care as much as to check.
Choice Band Axew: A possible over X-scissor would be Reversal. It might sound stupid to have a 2dragon/2steel attack set, but to my knowledge thats unresisted in the LC teir, all of Axews Coverage options are out-powered by Outrage, and Reversal would give you a very powerful move when low on health. Maybe not the most reliable thing ever, but its better than coverage for the sake of coverage, imo.
CS murkrow: I actually really like this if only for the huge power it provides at still very fast speeds. My only concern with it is my concern with all choice scarfers w/o utrun/voltswitch - its very easy to give up momentum when you're playing poorly. Its the main reason i try and avoid running them when i can in LC.
The point I'm getting at, and i dont mean to be harsh, is that you can tweak that set all you want and the only thing it will do is maybe make a hippopotas switch back in after drilbur OHKO's it outside of sand. Or it might make a Scarf snover miss a blizzard. Priority weather changing is powerful, especially when sand is as scary as it is, but this is not the way to go about it. I don't like making posts like this cause I know it stifles the creativity of our playerbase which is the #1 opposite way to go about getting a more posting forum, but I strongly believe we as a teir should stop trying to make obviously bad mons decent. That set can literally be slapped onto Murkrow like iss said (murkrow gets Raindance, unsure of sunny day). Cottonnee can do a decent sub seed set if you really want Sun for some reason. Would it work? I honestly don't know, but i can say it has a much stronger chance of working because the mon it's on isn't utter garbage to begin with. Like I said. I know this posts a little harsh, but I'm not going after any individual, its just purrloin is not worth our time.
edit: since this was necrobumped, I'm just commenting on a few things on this page of posts:
HP Psychic mienfoo would run HP Psychic for the same reason HP Ice mienfoo ran HP Ice: It lures and kills a counter. I don't think croagunk is as popular as it once was and I honestly wouldn't run that set unless i was counter teaming. It lets you run HJK on a scraggy, for example, using that mienfoo to lure in croagunk and KOing it. I'm assuming HP psychic OHKOs or at least does a sizable chunk - I feel the sets a bit outdated so I really don't care as much as to check.
Choice Band Axew: A possible over X-scissor would be Reversal. It might sound stupid to have a 2dragon/2steel attack set, but to my knowledge thats unresisted in the LC teir, all of Axews Coverage options are out-powered by Outrage, and Reversal would give you a very powerful move when low on health. Maybe not the most reliable thing ever, but its better than coverage for the sake of coverage, imo.
CS murkrow: I actually really like this if only for the huge power it provides at still very fast speeds. My only concern with it is my concern with all choice scarfers w/o utrun/voltswitch - its very easy to give up momentum when you're playing poorly. Its the main reason i try and avoid running them when i can in LC.
While this thread is on the forefront, does anyone have any ideas / things they have been using lately? We can take the necro as an excuse to really push forward some cool sets recently.
Even if the set has an analysis, or isn't necessarily "new" it's okay to bring up if it's uncommon or not standard!
Even if the set has an analysis, or isn't necessarily "new" it's okay to bring up if it's uncommon or not standard!
Well I've been using Grimer on a lot of my teams lately, more specfically this set:
@ Eviolite
Sticky Hold
Impish Nature
76 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SDef
~ Poison Jab
~ Shadow Sneak
~ Fire Punch / Ice Punch
~ Pain Split
I can never seem to replace grimer on my teams because it does so many roles. At first I thought it was one of those niche pokemon that has a "beats one pokemon all the time but sucks against everything else," mentality surrounding it, that pokemon being Mienfoo of course. With base 80 HP and Attack and base 50 Defenses, Grimer can be a really effective tank. It beats ALL fighting types 1 on 1 (Croagunk is indeed tough but Grimer will usually come out on top if Fire Punch is used) including Timburr, Mienfoo, and Scraggy, even if Scraggy carries Zen Headbutt. It also checks almost every Grass and Bug type in the tier like Foongus, and Shroomish. It can pick off Ghost types that like to switch in with Shadow Sneak, and it does a hefty 36% to Missy, which means that if it switches into Poison Jab (which it often will) and expects you to switch out and uses Nasty Plot, you will actually beat it most of the time. Many potential counters to Grimer, like Abra, are picked off with this move also. It can also finish off weakened sweepers like Dweeble, Clamperl, etc.
You might wonder why you would use Grimer over something like Shelmet, Missy, Croagunk, and even Koffing, but Grimer has advantages over all of them.
Grimer much more offensive than Koffing, Shelmet, and Groagunk and is not vulnerable to Knock Off like the others are. Grimer is also immune to Trick and that would severely cripple all three of them. Koffing and Shelmet also lack priority, which Grimer has. Missy is still vulnerable to Knock Off and will lose against Scraggy and Timburr that carry Payback most of time while Grimer can handle these pokemon more comfortably. Missy also doesn't have priority (well it does have shadow sneak technically, but who would ever use it?)
Coverage is a little bit of a problem of course. I prefer Fire Punch because you can't do anything to steel types like Magnemite, Ferroseed, and Bronzor otherwise. Ice Punch is useful for Archen, Lileep and Ground types that switch in. Another perk that Poison Jab has that is often overlooked is it's 30% chance to cause Poison. This means that walls that want to switch in on Grimer, like Porygon, Hippo, and Lileep will eventually become poisoned and their job is much harder when they are losing 12% health every turn.
Grimer is really underused and underrated, I don't even think it breaks the top 75 in usage, probably because people think it's useless because it has difficulty with ground types which are always on Sand Teams, but it actually is very good.
Sticky Hold
Impish Nature
76 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SDef
~ Poison Jab
~ Shadow Sneak
~ Fire Punch / Ice Punch
~ Pain Split
I can never seem to replace grimer on my teams because it does so many roles. At first I thought it was one of those niche pokemon that has a "beats one pokemon all the time but sucks against everything else," mentality surrounding it, that pokemon being Mienfoo of course. With base 80 HP and Attack and base 50 Defenses, Grimer can be a really effective tank. It beats ALL fighting types 1 on 1 (Croagunk is indeed tough but Grimer will usually come out on top if Fire Punch is used) including Timburr, Mienfoo, and Scraggy, even if Scraggy carries Zen Headbutt. It also checks almost every Grass and Bug type in the tier like Foongus, and Shroomish. It can pick off Ghost types that like to switch in with Shadow Sneak, and it does a hefty 36% to Missy, which means that if it switches into Poison Jab (which it often will) and expects you to switch out and uses Nasty Plot, you will actually beat it most of the time. Many potential counters to Grimer, like Abra, are picked off with this move also. It can also finish off weakened sweepers like Dweeble, Clamperl, etc.
You might wonder why you would use Grimer over something like Shelmet, Missy, Croagunk, and even Koffing, but Grimer has advantages over all of them.
Grimer much more offensive than Koffing, Shelmet, and Groagunk and is not vulnerable to Knock Off like the others are. Grimer is also immune to Trick and that would severely cripple all three of them. Koffing and Shelmet also lack priority, which Grimer has. Missy is still vulnerable to Knock Off and will lose against Scraggy and Timburr that carry Payback most of time while Grimer can handle these pokemon more comfortably. Missy also doesn't have priority (well it does have shadow sneak technically, but who would ever use it?)
Coverage is a little bit of a problem of course. I prefer Fire Punch because you can't do anything to steel types like Magnemite, Ferroseed, and Bronzor otherwise. Ice Punch is useful for Archen, Lileep and Ground types that switch in. Another perk that Poison Jab has that is often overlooked is it's 30% chance to cause Poison. This means that walls that want to switch in on Grimer, like Porygon, Hippo, and Lileep will eventually become poisoned and their job is much harder when they are losing 12% health every turn.
Grimer is really underused and underrated, I don't even think it breaks the top 75 in usage, probably because people think it's useless because it has difficulty with ground types which are always on Sand Teams, but it actually is very good.
I assume you could use Drain Punch over HJK if the accuracy/recoil problem is something you're worried about. Unless HJK get's any notable KO's that I'm not 100% aware off.
Most of the time Drain Punch/HJK is just preference on Mienfoo. It just depends on whether you want it to have a more offensive or defensive role and whether the risk of HJK is worth it especially with Misdreavus being so common.
Also Grimer does seem like it could have its niche in LC. Sand teams will be a serious issue and more often that not render it useless though. A bit more tanky than other defensive mons and shadow sneak seems pretty cool.
Zigzagoon @ Oran Berry
Trait: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 188 Def / 108 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- ExtremeSpeed
- Seed Bomb
- Thief
Whenever you see a zigzagoon, it's most likely going to be this kind of set. The basic idea is to take any hit from the opponents pokemon, live with even a sliver of health, activate oran berry (which restores exactly 50%), use Belly Drum and ExtremeSpeed everything!
The first difference to more common sets is that I don't invest anything into speed and rather put everything in attack and defense. The reason being that it gives zigzagoon a better chance of actually surviving some sort of hit to get of it's belly drum. Also speed investment is usually not going to be very useful, since it still naturally outspeed most of the things it would want to use Seed Bomb against. While ghost types such as Misdreavus, Gastly or Drifloon usually outspeeds no matter how much investment Zigzagoon has. It could still be helpful for a couple of rock-types, however I prefer the extra bulk.
The second difference is Zigzagoon's fourth move, Theif. It might seem like a rather silly choice at first. However if you actually look into Zigzagoon's movepool you will realize there aren't that many better options.
Since you will consume the oran berry whenever Belly Drum is used, you will pretty much always be able to steal an item from the opponent, making it an improved knock off. It's a nice move to nail ghost types with on the switch since it also cripples them, something which seed bomb fails to do.
There are also quite a few pokemon you won't be able to KO with +6 ExtremeSpeed alone. In such situation it's really nice to first steal their eviolite with theif, then continue to KO with ExtremeSpeed. Notice that whenever stealing an eviolite, having some extra defense investment also helps.
It's hardly a fantastic pokemon, but it's very fun to use. I needs proper team support to take care of it's counters before it can attempt to sweep. Have fun Stealing!
Trait: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 188 Def / 108 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- ExtremeSpeed
- Seed Bomb
- Thief
Whenever you see a zigzagoon, it's most likely going to be this kind of set. The basic idea is to take any hit from the opponents pokemon, live with even a sliver of health, activate oran berry (which restores exactly 50%), use Belly Drum and ExtremeSpeed everything!
The first difference to more common sets is that I don't invest anything into speed and rather put everything in attack and defense. The reason being that it gives zigzagoon a better chance of actually surviving some sort of hit to get of it's belly drum. Also speed investment is usually not going to be very useful, since it still naturally outspeed most of the things it would want to use Seed Bomb against. While ghost types such as Misdreavus, Gastly or Drifloon usually outspeeds no matter how much investment Zigzagoon has. It could still be helpful for a couple of rock-types, however I prefer the extra bulk.
The second difference is Zigzagoon's fourth move, Theif. It might seem like a rather silly choice at first. However if you actually look into Zigzagoon's movepool you will realize there aren't that many better options.
Since you will consume the oran berry whenever Belly Drum is used, you will pretty much always be able to steal an item from the opponent, making it an improved knock off. It's a nice move to nail ghost types with on the switch since it also cripples them, something which seed bomb fails to do.
There are also quite a few pokemon you won't be able to KO with +6 ExtremeSpeed alone. In such situation it's really nice to first steal their eviolite with theif, then continue to KO with ExtremeSpeed. Notice that whenever stealing an eviolite, having some extra defense investment also helps.
It's hardly a fantastic pokemon, but it's very fun to use. I needs proper team support to take care of it's counters before it can attempt to sweep. Have fun Stealing!
Doubleposting yay
Cacnea @ Eviolite
Trait: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 196 HP / 36 SDef / 36 Def
Adamant Nature
- Spikes
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Seed
- Drain Punch / Sucker Punch
Bulky Spiker set, what I really like with him is that he beats the two common spinners: Drilbur and Staryu. Also kinda beats Tentacool with a Swords Dance boost I guess, and can muscle through most defensive pokémon with Bullet Seed and Drain Punch, and has nice bulk for such low stats. Drain Punch is primary slash over Sucker Punch because he needs the recovery and likes hitting Ferroseed and Lileep, but that's up to you I guess since priority is useful.
236+ Atk Cacnea Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 24-36 (120 - 180%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ Atk Cacnea Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drilbur: 24-36 (104.34 - 156.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ Atk Cacnea Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Tentacool: 12-18 (52.17 - 78.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^Cacnea against the most common spikers.
200 SpA Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 236 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Cacnea: 6-8 (25 - 33.33%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Drilbur Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Cacnea: 6-8 (25 - 33.33%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO
... And how much damage he gets from them.
You could run water absorb for scald immunity and recovery from water-type moves, but you can't run bullet seed and you miss the OHKO sometimes on Staryu.
236+ Atk Cacnea Seed Bomb vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 18-24 (90 - 120%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
Cacnea @ Eviolite
Trait: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 196 HP / 36 SDef / 36 Def
Adamant Nature
- Spikes
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Seed
- Drain Punch / Sucker Punch
Bulky Spiker set, what I really like with him is that he beats the two common spinners: Drilbur and Staryu. Also kinda beats Tentacool with a Swords Dance boost I guess, and can muscle through most defensive pokémon with Bullet Seed and Drain Punch, and has nice bulk for such low stats. Drain Punch is primary slash over Sucker Punch because he needs the recovery and likes hitting Ferroseed and Lileep, but that's up to you I guess since priority is useful.
236+ Atk Cacnea Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 24-36 (120 - 180%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ Atk Cacnea Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drilbur: 24-36 (104.34 - 156.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ Atk Cacnea Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Tentacool: 12-18 (52.17 - 78.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^Cacnea against the most common spikers.
200 SpA Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 236 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Cacnea: 6-8 (25 - 33.33%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Drilbur Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Cacnea: 6-8 (25 - 33.33%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO
... And how much damage he gets from them.
You could run water absorb for scald immunity and recovery from water-type moves, but you can't run bullet seed and you miss the OHKO sometimes on Staryu.
236+ Atk Cacnea Seed Bomb vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 18-24 (90 - 120%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
My immediate reactions to this would be:
What are the 2 hit Bullet seed damage calcs on common spinners?
How does it handle the neutral/SE hits tht the spinners carry? (ie HP fire (admittedly less seen) on Staryu, Rockslide and Xscissors (again less seen and probably not as big an issue)?
How does he stand up to the other offensive spiker Dwebble?
Unfortunately i dont have time to look up any of these questions, but this is where i'd start discussion on the set. It looks interesting, to say the least
What are the 2 hit Bullet seed damage calcs on common spinners?
How does it handle the neutral/SE hits tht the spinners carry? (ie HP fire (admittedly less seen) on Staryu, Rockslide and Xscissors (again less seen and probably not as big an issue)?
How does he stand up to the other offensive spiker Dwebble?
Unfortunately i dont have time to look up any of these questions, but this is where i'd start discussion on the set. It looks interesting, to say the least
I'm using the showdown calc, so I'll use a 50BP Seed Bomb for this.
236+ Atk Cacnea Seed Bomb vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 14-18 (70 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Cacnea Seed Bomb vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drilbur: 14-20 (60.86 - 86.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These calcs are probably a bit off, since the output damage for two base 25 bullet seeds is higher due to average damage rolls. That's also why three bullet seeds have a higher damage output than a single seed bomb, despite being at lower BST.
Drilbur's rock slide has the same damage output as NVE earthquake, so I don't have to put up that calc again.
236 Atk Drilbur X-Scissor vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Cacnea: 14-18 (58.33 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
He can take a hit and OHKO back, I suppose.
236+ Atk Life Orb Drilbur X-Scissor vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Cacnea: 18-23 (75 - 95.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Still survives an LO X-Scissor, but becomes dead weight, except if he can come in a water-type attack if he's using water absorb, I guess...
200 SpA Staryu Hidden Power Fire vs. 236 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Cacnea: 10-14 (41.66 - 58.33%) -- 88.67% chance to 2HKO
Not even 2HKOing all the time, so he's safe.
His main advantage over Dwebble is that he isn't a suicide lead: he also isn't dead-weight after setting up hazards. He can attempt to wallbreak with Swords Dance and can actually fight the spinners. He has much better bulk too.
Yeah i forgot how to multiply when I requested Rockslide calcs. It actually seems like a solid setter, and I'm genuinely surprised at that, though its worth noting that Dwebble gets Shell smash and can run it over one of the hazards so as to storm house when given the opprotunity.
Cacnea can have the same attack boost with Swords Dance, doesn't get his bulk reduced, has way better bulk at the start, and has priority in sucker punch if he doesn't choose drain punch OR recovery if he doesn't choose sucker punch. Cacnea has a tool similar to Dwebble's.
Convincing argument, i might give it a shot and see if i can ruin it!
Another set no one really commented on that i think deserves a mention is shouting's grimer. Uhhh. Simply being able to handle most variations of mienfoo in one mon is often reason enough and he makes a strong point for it being more than a 1 trick pony