Ubers UU National Dex Ubers UU [Shifts @ #84]

[Celeste]

Hello everyone! After now two weeks of making teams for UUberspl and getting to play some test games and reviewing the replays I can find post Dragceus ban i want to give my thoughts on some things, specifically Arceus as a concept. Arc-less being poor building is already a pretty common take for SV UUbers, and while I understand some of the reasoning for it I want to highlight a few different forms here and talk about some of their basic potential. I intend on revisiting this after UUberspl is done so I can go more in depth into specific team styles without accidentally leaking what I've been building, but felt it still might be useful to touch on this while the tour is ongoing. I understand that I'm relatively new to the tier and hence people might disagree with these takes but I still feel like this is worth sharing.

First up, the Big Three main arc forms I believe to be the most reliable in the format:

Arceus Steel

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Touching on this one first as besides grass this is the only one to appear on any sample. Steel is an incredibly strong type, I don't think there is any way you can properly deny that, and despite the plethora of strong fightings and grounds in this tier Steelceus still manages to be incredibly strong in its own right. Offensively, I feel it can be pretty comfortable running mono stab on either side of the spectrum, either with DD iron head sets (though this struggles more into Alomomola) or CM judgement. Its ability to pretty much freely add whatever support move it likes, being Taunt, Will-O, Twave, etc. on top of being able to abuse tera to an incredible degree lets it be a pretty consistent player when it comes to helping teams face down threats such as Chien Pao, Opposing Arceus forms, and frail attackers while also threatening many common pokemon on bulky structures like Alo and defensive Gira-O.

Arceus Poison

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Arceus Poison may seem out of left field with the powerful grounds in the format, but rest assured that the merits of this mon across a variety of team styles can arguably rival Steelceus in terms of versatility and overall viability. Poison is a heavily underrated defensive typing when it comes to resisting important types in this tier like Fairy, and Fighting, while still notably being neutral to both of Chien-Pao's STABs. Poisonceus has already established itself in SV uubers as a prime offensive threat with its SD/DD sets, and here I do not believe that changes, and you have the added benefit of greatly increased defensive potential due to the added move pool with excellent tools such as defog, toxic, and the same support moves you could see Arceus Steel running, with the benefits of a different defensive typing that can similarly abuse tera. Overall it has an edge offensively over Steelceus, but still has versatility to help it keep up on the defensive side on builds that can account for its weaknesses.

Arceus Flying

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The last of the definitive "big three" Arc forms, Arc Flying is an absolute offensive BEAST on the sheer merit of its Calm Mind sets alone, despite the ubiquitous nature of Chien-Pao in the current state of the tier Flyceus is able to pretty effortlessly threaten almost every single mon in the tier, and having an important defensive niche of being immune to ground, vital when Lando T and Groudon are as good as they are. Its mediocre defensive profile in other aspects limits it a bit in terms of what you can run it on, but when it gets going its incredibly hard to stop. Tera types like Fairy to help limit phasing from Giratina, Steel to resist Ice, or even Poison to become immune to toxic damage and completely sit on Pokemon like Pheromosa let this pokemon stay on the field even longer while dishing out devastating blows (of wind). It may be one dimensional, but its one dimension doesn't stop it from being incredibly effective in its role.

Next, 3 forms i have less to say about but I believe round out the main set of Viable Arceus forms.

Arceus Electric

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Arc electric faces a problem similar to Arc Flying, but trades its offensive prowess for almost no meaningful defensive niche. Its STAB paired with Ice Beam will allow it to beat a lot of teams, and DD sets to have a lot of options, but it will require a team that can meaningfully make up for the fact that your Arceus will be largely incapable of taking the hits you need it to take to really get you off the ground. Its good for sure, but much more high risk with a somewhat high reward, which can be very dangerous in an offensive metagame such as this.

Arceus Grass

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In my opinion, Arceus Grass is best used as a subsitute for Arceus Poison on very ground weak teams that are able to make up for its weakness to Ice. It is much more able to set up in the face of the grounds that make up the tier staples, and also have the bonus of being able to potentially tear through some Grounds and Bulky Waters, as well as maybe have better defensive matchups on certain team styles. I think the overall defensive downsides of this form are super notable though, and thus should be considered in teambuilding.

Arceus Fighting

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Arceus Fighting will almost always have some small niche due to its access to STAB Body Press, allowing it to much more effectively start getting setup with sets like Cosmic Power, but is also able to wreak its own offensive havoc due to a reliable special fighting stab, only truly needing shadow ball to patch up the hole that fighting has (just note that it still struggles with ever present Tera Fairy and Arc Poison). That being said, the oppourtunity cost of running Arceus Fighting is huge, especially when it has a lot of notable weaknesses like Fairy and Psychic and nothing to speak of in terms of resistances except Dark, when in all likelihood you will be wanting to Tera out of Fighting anyways. It has cheese potential, but that's the most you can probably expect from it. If Giratina Origin does rise as expected, this probably gets a lot stronger.

Overall, I truly do believe that most, if not all teams should be running some form of Arceus and hope that this post for now helps people get some more ideas for how they could build with, well quite literally God. I intend on posting more collected thoughts about the major players in the tier post UUberspl (and the anticipated Gira-O ban), because this tier has been super fun to build for and play so far and I would really like to see some larger development happening in the upcoming months, as I think this tier has serious potential going forwards.

 

[OceanicGamer]

The last of the definitive "big three" Arc forms, Arc Flying is an absolute offensive BEAST on the sheer merit of its Calm Mind sets alone, despite the ubiquitous nature of Chien-Pao in the current state of the tier Flyceus is able to pretty effortlessly threaten almost every single mon in the tier, and having an important defensive niche of being immune to ground, vital when Lando T and Groudon are as good as they are. Its mediocre defensive profile in other aspects limits it a bit in terms of what you can run it on, but when it gets going its incredibly hard to stop. Tera types like Fairy to help limit phasing from Giratina, Steel to resist Ice, or even Poison to become immune to toxic damage and completely sit on Pokemon like Pheromosa let this pokemon stay on the field even longer while dishing out devastating blows (of wind). It may be one dimensional, but its one dimension doesn't stop it from being incredibly effective in its role.

I just wanted to mention about how *stupid* this thing pairs well with Magearna defensively. They cover each others weaknesses so fucking well and while the Rocks weakness is pretty bad for it, the sheer ability to be a switchin to stuff like Groudon and the Lando forms which Magearna is very scared of is just a great advantage to have and it can probably find many opportunities to Recover as it switches in (unless it gets trapped into a VoltTurn combo whilst Rocks are up). Also, Magearna being able to setup Spikes and slowing down Pokémon with TWave sets better conditions for a CM sweep. ArcFlying rant done!

 

[Zrp200]

Happy New Year!

January Tier Shifts​

Average usage from the last three months:

   Groudon-Primal        51.23%
   Yveltal               38.98%
   Zacian-Crowned        32.95%
   Necrozma-Dusk-Mane    29.13%
   Ho-Oh                 27.66%
   Marshadow             24.06%
   Zygarde               23.64%
   Eternatus             22.98%
   Arceus                21.54%
   Kyogre-Primal         19.90%
   Arceus-Ground         10.27%
   Arceus-Dark           9.68%
   Arceus-Fairy          9.43%
-  Giratina-Origin       8.67%
   Rayquaza              8.59%
   Calyrex-Ice           7.57%
   Salamence-Mega        7.00%
   Smeargle              6.75%
   Deoxys-Speed          6.32%
   Deoxys-Attack         6.27%
   Lunala                6.10%
   Mewtwo-Mega-Y         5.71%
   Kyogre                5.47%
   Melmetal              5.40%
   Dondozo               5.05%
   Ditto                 5.03%
-  Chien-Pao             4.97%
+  Glimmora              4.38%
+  Chansey               4.19%
+  Lugia                 3.90%
   Kyurem-Black          3.86%
+  Hatterene             3.80%

As such, Giratina-Origin and Chien Pao rise to Ubers OU and Glimmora,Chansey, Lugia, andHatterene are again Ubers UU legal!

(We also lost Rayquaza, which was already banned)

Tagging dhelmise to implement.


Additionally, the council is currently evaluating action on the remaining Pokemon on the watchlist, so stay tuned for future actions, and thanks to everyone who voted to give us a ladder last month!

 

[Celeste]

Woah!!! Another post from me, and another long one. Shifts have come through, so I figured id share some of my thoughts on what I'm expecting going forwards:

The Rises

Giratina Origin
I think we all saw this one coming, and in all honesty I'm sad to see it go. Giratina has been a staple of helping beef up the tier versus strong fightings and grounds, and on its own was able to help manage a ton of strong pokemon in the format, being a reliable mon that could cripple with status, phase, or just hit like a truck on its own. I don't think there is much to say about this one because it was just great glue on pretty much any team you could ask for, and I'm interested to see what rises in its place.

Chien-Pao
I expect somewhat mixed reactions to this one, I know cheems was a super controversial mon in the tier and I'm sure many people are glad to see it naturally leave this tier, but if im being entirely honest I'm sad to see this mon go, I think it had a presence in the tier that given time and some changes could help create a meta that might be really fun, but with it out of the picture its very clear the meta will be shifting a bit slower, as there isn't really any speed present besides phero that competes with it in sheer power.

The Drops

Glimmora
HO has a new face! Glimmora dropping will allow for more diverse forms of H/O besides just webs, I can see this enabling a ton of already strong attackers and giving mons like Spectrier extra strong partners, as this tier does struggle to handle offensive ghosts now that Chien-Pao is gone. With no deoxys speed available to us, it will be interesting to see how H/O adapts to this new lead.

Chansey
In all honesty, I don't really see this impacting the tier too much. Its another option for more defensive teams and notably a non magearna heal bell clicker that I can see maybe getting use. Admittedly this is not the kind of mon I would often find myself building with already, so that might warp my judgement a bit here.

Lugia
Lugia is an interesting one, I think a much more notable add to bulky teams that has options to do a few different things, weve seen it be a CM sweeper in SV uubers, but here it has access to Toxic as well as Defog and other tools, letting it be a longer acting wall. I'm uncertain of how potent it will be in this role, but I'm excited to see what people cook with it.

Hatterene
If you know me, you know I have been ready for this mon to drop down, Hatterene provides an excellent support role to a more team styles then just trick room, enabling things like Weather (especially sun) and psyspam in keeping hazards off, and I believe it probably has potential to do work on more forms of offense due to its ability and access to Healing Wish. Extremely excited to see what Hatt will bring to the table!

Biggest Winners

Groudon
Groudon was already something people have been upset about after the first few weeks of UUbersPL, and with two of its most "consistent" checks out of the tier, I think the outcry to ban this pokemon will be through the roof. Its ability to circumvent its checks and be able to consistently trade, if not effortlessly go positive in every game is incredibly concerning.

Arceus Poison
This applies to pretty much any Arc form that can run E-Killer or DD sets, as Giratina was a huge limiting factor in these, often dictating the tera type you could run, or necessitating strong team support to help manage the Arceus' lack of ability to offensively take Giratina down. I think that Arc Poison is the biggest winner of these, but im sure we will see more rise up as well.

Offensive Darks and Ice Types
The loss of Chien-Pao means that a plethora of Darks and Ice types that felt overshadowed by this beast now have a chance to shine even more on their own, and leaves a lot of room for new mons to take its place, or diversify the options people have in general. The mons shown above are just a few I think could rise up in usage, but I'm interested to see what else may rise up.

And yeah! Just some early thoughts, i expect some short term changes to come soon to help fix any disasters that might arise to help stabilize the tier a bit before UUberspl finals, and any potential tours happening in this tier. Excited that I can be a part of the council and be engaged more with this tier, and i'm excited to see where it goes!

 

[OceanicGamer]

View attachment 700787​

Happy New Year!

January Tier Shifts​

Average usage from the last three months:

   Groudon-Primal        51.23%
   Yveltal               38.98%
   Zacian-Crowned        32.95%
   Necrozma-Dusk-Mane    29.13%
   Ho-Oh                 27.66%
   Marshadow             24.06%
   Zygarde               23.64%
   Eternatus             22.98%
   Arceus                21.54%
   Kyogre-Primal         19.90%
   Arceus-Ground         10.27%
   Arceus-Dark           9.68%
   Arceus-Fairy          9.43%
-  Giratina-Origin       8.67%
   Rayquaza              8.59%
   Calyrex-Ice           7.57%
   Salamence-Mega        7.00%
   Smeargle              6.75%
   Deoxys-Speed          6.32%
   Deoxys-Attack         6.27%
   Lunala                6.10%
   Mewtwo-Mega-Y         5.71%
   Kyogre                5.47%
   Melmetal              5.40%
   Dondozo               5.05%
   Ditto                 5.03%
-  Chien-Pao             4.97%
+  Glimmora              4.38%
+  Chansey               4.19%
+  Lugia                 3.90%
   Kyurem-Black          3.86%
+  Hatterene             3.80%

As such, Giratina-Origin and Chien Pao rise to Ubers OU and Glimmora,Chansey, Lugia, andHatterene are again Ubers UU legal!

(We also lost Rayquaza, which was already banned)

Tagging dhelmise to implement.


Additionally, the council is currently evaluating action on the remaining Pokemon on the watchlist, so stay tuned for future actions, and thanks to everyone who voted to give us a ladder last month!

wow no credit for the diagram, thanks /jk

Gonna drop some short thoughts

I do think Lugia has big potential to become a decent Pokémon, especially with Chien-Pao gone,

Glimmora is a fantastic HO lead, and I will be trying it out but DeoN is also decent at being a lead

Hatterene is also fantastic, I will be enjoying using Sun and potentially Psyspam a bit more with this Pokémon here

Chansey. I prefer my Boots Blissey ngl

 

[Zrp200]

The council has decided to quickban Groudon!
Vote Sheet

tagging dhelmise to implement.

 

[Celeste]

Just to provide some explanation at least from my perspective of the situation!

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As has already been seen un UUbersPL, Groudon has proven to be one of the most difficult to check breakers in the tier. The near ubiquitous nature of Landorus Therian and Giratina Origin put some dents in its sheer power, but it was still able to power through most often with its Swords Dance sets. When paired with offensive Tera types like Dark and a Lum Berry, or Defensive Teras like Fire/Fairy Groudon was able to not only power through its intended checks, but was able to continue its streak and take out a few other Pokemon with it. While Giratina and Landorus put a lot of pressure on it in the builder, if Groudon was able to get one SD up (a feat not hard to accomplish due to the number of pokemon it threatens without boosts) this prep didn't matter. The answer to beating Groudon consistently was just praying you had the right tools to beat whichever set it was, which proves even more difficult as sets like Life Orb that can naturally 2hko some potential Groudon checks like Terad Arceus forms, and made it even more punishing for teams that may have managed to sufficiently insulate themselves from destruction.

With one of its most prominent defensive checks in Giratina leaving as well as one of the few pokemon that could consistently offensively threaten it in Chien-Pao, we deemed that the threat of Groudon being able to wreak havoc at a level beyond its already excellent performance would not only harm the progression of the ongoing UUbersPL, but would also be a net negative for the tier as it stands. This ban will hopefully give way to much more varied offensive and defensive playstyles, and let teams use more consistent defensive answers to handle whatever shall rise up in Groudon's place. Happy battling! Hopefully I will be able to run room tours for all of you soon :)

 

[Poosh_i]

Happy to see groudon finally go. This thing has been warping to the tier in an incredibly unhealthy way since the day the tier launched. With kyogre around it at least had some competition early on but when that went passive sun was just so warping, on top of groudon's ridiculous amount of both utility and offensive options.

However, there is one more very important pokemon that we need to be talking about now, and the one that I think is ACTUALLY the biggest winner of these shifts -

Arceus Flying


Expect to see this even more than you already do, and I believe that this will likely be the next threat to require some form of action.

 

[Zrp200]

As an FYI, we're delaying updating the VR in lieu of trying to get a more concrete understanding of the meta. Maybe this time we'll avoid something stupid in hindsight like →Mid lol.

Here's my current impressions of some mons.

Arceus-Steel​

This imo is the best of the arcs rn and probably the best thing in the meta period. This may be banworthy later, but for now I believe the large fighting presence and common lando-t keep it in check.

Steel neutrally has deceptively good coverage overall into the meta. Taunt + CM wins 1v1 vs every other arc forme outside of Fighting, which itself is niche but

Resistances to Bullet Punch and Extreme Speed are handy and somewhat ease its matchup into the most popular Mega Lucario sets. The steel resist also eases the Gholdengo matchup to some degree, as it lets Arceus-Steel 1v1 it in a CM war if necessary.

Being item locked also makes its Kingambit matchup a bit better than it may seem, which in turn is probably going to convince many to run Kowtow over Knock on their gambits.

The only real issue with this are its actual weaknesses. fighting is just generally super good right now with prominent sources being Pheromosa, Mega Lucario, and Zamazenta, which—outside of pheromosa itself—easily beat it 1v1 to the degree that Arceus-Steel is usually forced out or forced to Tera—which sucks because Tera means you lose the Steel type.

In the matches I've seen thus far, I haven't seen any real exploration of DD or SD Arceus-Steel outside of a few games where I personally brought SD Extreme Killer and in the old psyspam sample that has DD Steelium Z Arceus-Steel, but everything I'm looking at indicates that conditions are right for this to be good. Tera sets might sometimes hate losing their Steel type, but at the same time, those type flips are usually highly disruptive almost regardless of what they are.

Arceus-Flying​

TLDR flying type good. I have this lingering fear when teambuilding that if I don't exactly prep for it it'll run me over given a free turn.

This is the most likely forme to get banned. The coverage needed to handle it is often rather specific—rock type moves aren't super hot rn due to otherwise shitty SE coverage and doing little to Arceus-Steel, Magearna, and the deep pool of viable Fightings, while special coverage is easily foiled by CM and perhaps a Tera.

That said, it's THAT good as a glue mon, and it kinda pings into steels if you run taunt+CM (very hard to drop), but the different weaknesses from arc steel and arc poison, completely flipped Fighting matchup, and disruptive passive immunities to Spikes and Sticky Web are bound to cause a lot of pain in the future.

It's also worth noting that this causes builder issues with Lead Glimmora, as the only real way to seriously punish Arceus-Flying in the lead without losing a bunch of utility is to run Rock Tomb. Power Gem works, but Arceus-Flying can still set up on that with proper prediction.

Mega Lucario​

I love this thing. It cleaves through those Taunt+CM Arceus-Steel like a knife cutting through butter and is surprisingly difficult to switch into.
Meteor Mash can allow Mega Lucario to become a sweeper-worthy threat off of a single Attack raise—which is enough to let it OHKO Pheromosa with Bullet Punch. Meteor Mash also tends to 2HKO Arceus formes, making them bad switch-ins to it, and running Inner Focus as the base Ability makes Landorus-T an invalid switch-in on the turn it Mega Evolves.

At +2 this thing tends to just sweep if there's nothing faster than it.

The Speed tier is weirdly OK in my opinion and it can get away with being ran on a non-Sticky Web team (or even tech Adamant at the cost of the Landorus matchup) without too much issue as long as it has Bullet Punch or Extreme Speed. But obviously it's really good on Webs too so that it doesn't need to rely so much on Bullet Punch.

Arceus-Poison​

I haven't messed around with this too much, but from my experience playing against it and watching it be used, the only thing this has over arceus-steel is that Fighting resistance and lack of Fire weakness.

That said, that fighting resistance seems to be ridiculously handy right now, flipping the Pheromosa matchup and giving more leeway into the Zamazenta and Mega Lucario matchups.

In exchange, Poison offensively is literally useless outside of matching the best into other (Non-Steel) Arceus and Alomomola.

This, I suppose, is what's driving its relative dominance in being the forme of choice for tera-using Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Arceus formes. But I will snort if I see an actual special Arceus-Poison.

 

[OceanicGamer]

Arceus-Poison​

I haven't messed around with this too much, but from my experience playing against it and watching it be used, the only thing this has over arceus-steel is that Fighting resistance and lack of Fire weakness.

That said, that fighting resistance seems to be ridiculously handy right now, flipping the Pheromosa matchup and giving more leeway into the Zamazenta and Mega Lucario matchups.

In exchange, Poison offensively is literally useless outside of matching the best into other (Non-Steel) Arceus and Alomomola.

This, I suppose, is what's driving its relative dominance in being the forme of choice for tera-using Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Arceus formes. But I will snort if I see an actual special Arceus-Poison.

Tagging Celestiial

Dragon Dance with Z-Gunk Shot is capable of breaking majority of walls with the exception of Steel types and Lando-T, and since ArcPoison is a good defensive type, it can setup with a decent amount of freeness

 

[Celeste]

Tagging Celestiial

hello

The main appeal of poison is absolutely its ability to capitalize on its notable resistances as opposed to a generally strong defensive type, it lets it start to stack boosts and it can pick and choose exactly what it wants to beat. I think mixed is potentially an option for sniping lando t, and even things like tera fire flare blitz lets it shred arc steel and the like. Its def not the best arc rn, but its super good in the right hands id say. And as ocean mentioned the general offensive capabilities of a + 1 Z gunk shot could probably be disastrous for most teams, id like to see it tested more

 

[veti]

Arceus-Poison​

I haven't messed around with this too much, but from my experience playing against it and watching it be used, the only thing this has over arceus-steel is that Fighting resistance and lack of Fire weakness.

Poisonceus is a lot better than you give it credit for, and is much better than Steel as a DD user while being a better SD user too imo. Gunk+EQ or Gunk+Blitz are both amazing 2 move coverage for DD sets and Gunk Shot hits way harder than Iron Head, and Poisinium Z is a way bigger threat than Steelium. As an SD user, having only 2 weaknesses with one being Psychic while also having the same Toxic immunity as Steelceus makes it even harder to stop from setting up because you're only beating it with Ground and not Ground+Fire+Fighting, while even the threat of Gunk Shot can make people think twice about what moves it has while Iron Head is pretty redundant with Espeed.

 

[veti]

Current thoughts on the shifts + future of tiering.

Tier Shifts

The tier shifts will probably make the metagame worse in the short term. The drops are all fine and Chien Pao leaving is nice, but the loss of Giratina Origin sucks. It was a pretty healthy mon with wisp and dtail sets that were easily splashable thanks to its offensive pressure and ground immunity that Giratina Altered just lacks. Giratina Origin was debatably broken with CM sets as well as the more niche but still possibly broken Curse and Hone Claws sets, but it was a healthy centralizer for an Ubers based meta IMO. Teams probably get less diverse without its ability to compress a blanket everything check + ground immunity + potentially a phaser, but the meta will move on even if less diverse. Chien Pao leaving is very good because it was broken with Darkinium-Z sets but it probably would've gotten banned anyways.

Drops are cool but don't change the meta too much.

Glimmora diversifies the HO lead meta and probably leads to an uptick in mons like Arceus Poison, Sneasler, and Toxapex to absorb tspikes and feast on HO, we'll see more Tera Steel over Ghost making Rapid Spin more appealing esp without Origin.

Lugia is cool as a second Arceus-Flying on Sticky Web teams, but it lacks Taunt and is slower than Arceus. Has bulk to blanket check any offensive mon but is kinda weak and exploitable outside of CM sets.

Chansey is probably just a worse Blissey in this meta, idt we need the bulk that badly. As a side note, stall does probably still improve with the abscence of Groudon/Sun and Chien Pao.

Hatterene allows for Psyspam to run Sash Spam and potentially re-enter the meta. Probably also a solid option on most playstyles but nothing gamechanging for most.

Winners

A lot of winners have already been touched on by other people, but I'd like to highlight Tusk and Mewtwo. Great Tusk LOVES Giratina Origin rising and Mortal Spin being a real threat, Glimmora dropping is excellent for it, Groudon is a mixed bag because it loses a good sun setter but also loses a major competitor, should be a positive because Groudon+Tusk is redundant and stacks weaknesses esp because Groudon was not the type of mon to need help overwhelming its counters. Mewtwo loses Chien Pao, the Dark type that slams it with Darkinium-Z. Mewtwo and MMX are now tied for the fastest mon besides mons that aren't used much, Pheromosa, and Deoxys.

The Controversial CM Arcs

They are broken. Any Arceus form that can get away with CM and only one attack to run Taunt ends up being broken because defensive counterplay is almost non-existent and offensive counterplay is very limited as well, plenty of games come down to Taunt speed ties or praying your Choice Scarf user has the right STAB move to hit its tera hard, both of these forms of counterplay are shut down entirely by Sticky Web. There are a few techs I've found to win against CM Arc that I won't reveal until I've used them or arc steel and flying are both banned, but they're definitely not sufficient counterplay. Once they're banned CM Arcs should just be good mons and not broken, Arc Electric for example would def be powerful with BoltBeam but the lack of Taunt makes it infinitely easier to defensively check. I might be wrong and Arc forms just start running mono Ice Beam or smth but at least they wouldn't have stab.

Unbans

Chi-Yu sounds too hard to manage in the builder to be worth readding to the meta. Doesn't really have many defensive checks and we already have Hearthflame if people want to use a good Fire wallbreaker. Zacian I support trying out eventually, but it sounds really dumb, in SV it already picks and chooses its counters and here it gets Z Moves to pick and choose counters even more. Probably makes the meta worse but unlike Chi Yu theres actually reasons to let it be free, mainly just being a good speed control option and discouraging use of certain slower threats.

Please stop using Giratina Origin on ladder ndubers playerbase, I want it back. @ bobsican move it to UR on the VR and spread huge amounts of Giratina Altered propaganda or smth it would be very appreciated.​

 

[Poosh_i]

With groudon gone, there is no real reason for to be on the banlist and its ban is entirely an artifact of that. Nobody is calling for its ban in SV which is a FAR more ideal environment than here with the increased amount of offensive fightings, and better resist options (roost resh is a very cool mon and fini is underrated), and a LOT more (and overall better) rocker options. the only potential extra natdex element it could take advantage of is z moves which it really does not get much benefit out of and yu wants its items.

You want arc steel to be more limited? Yu is a great revenger for this reason on the mono special sets, forcing it to switch or tera easily.

 

[Zrp200]

With groudon gone, there is no real reason for to be on the banlist and its ban is entirely an artifact of that. Nobody is calling for its ban in SV which is a FAR more ideal environment than here with the increased amount of offensive fightings, and better resist options (roost resh is a very cool mon and fini is underrated), and a LOT more (and overall better) rocker options. the only potential extra natdex element it could take advantage of is z moves which it really does not get much benefit out of and yu wants its items.

You want arc steel to be more limited? Yu is a great revenger for this reason on the mono special sets, forcing it to switch or tera easily.

+2 252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Reshiram: 454-535 (112.3 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Checked.

Okay, Fini actually resists, so it can do this:

+2 252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Fini: 215-253 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

In other words resisted Dark Pulse KOes straight afterward on full spdef. And I haven't even gotten to the fire stabs yet. Or the possibility of Modest.

Solid checks, indeed.

 

[Celeste]

+2 252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Reshiram: 454-535 (112.3 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Checked.

Okay, Fini actually resists, so it can do this:

+2 252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Fini: 215-253 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

In other words resisted Dark Pulse KOes straight afterward on full spdef. And I haven't even gotten to the fire stabs yet. Or the possibility of Modest.

Solid checks, indeed.

i have not yet seen anyone run either of these, and this completely ignores the fact that there is a lot of options to just offensively check chi yu, it is like a lot of other breakers in that if you pivot it in, yes it can get a kill, but that has a lot of skill requirement when your opponent is competent. Plus if ur Z it means ur not scarf or specs, limiting chi yu to a more one off nuke moment then the more prolonged threat over a game, which i think has way more grounds to be manageable. Sending spdef reshi and fini calcs is just omega coping when the tier alr has a lot of strong fightings and like scarf lando t that put a ton of pressure on the chi yu player to play well. Like, Deoxys in SV uubers will almost always get a kill when its in if the player using it outplays, and Id argue chi yu is a different approach to that same idea.

 

[Zrp200]

i have not yet seen anyone run either of these, and this completely ignores the fact that there is a lot of options to just offensively check chi yu, it is like a lot of other breakers in that if you pivot it in, yes it can get a kill, but that has a lot of skill requirement when your opponent is competent. Plus if ur Z it means ur not scarf or specs, limiting chi yu to a more one off nuke moment then the more prolonged threat over a game, which i think has way more grounds to be manageable. Sending spdef reshi and fini calcs is just omega coping when the tier alr has a lot of strong fightings and like scarf lando t that put a ton of pressure on the chi yu player to play well. Like, Deoxys in SV uubers will almost always get a kill when its in if the player using it outplays, and Id argue chi yu is a different approach to that same idea.

I gave those two because they were the two mentioned.

Darkinium Z doubles the power of Dark Pulse, which already 2HKOes most targets and is a 2HKO on almost everything that remains at +2 even without an item or tera.

And as soon as you prepare an answer to that, sorry, it was actually Firium Z. Check OHKOed. This same set can bluff Scarf and Specs very easily and completely obliterate their counterplay in doing so.

Deoxys is not an apt comparison because it's extremely frail, reliant on weak or inconsistent non-stab coverage to break its checks, and has a useless defensive typing.

Chi-Yu doesn't need any coverage at all. Its STABs alone shred offensive mons even without items or tera. And it has immunities and useful resistances. And it can fit moves like Taunt or Substitute if it wants to go even further.

Not to mention it can follow up anything that doesn't KO with Overheat.

We have plenty of speed control. We don't need one that's also a broken wallbreaker as well.

 

[Poosh_i]

I gave those two because they were the two mentioned.

Darkinium Z doubles the power of Dark Pulse, which already 2HKOes most targets and is a 2HKO on almost everything that remains at +2 even without an item or tera.

And as soon as you prepare an answer to that, sorry, it was actually Firium Z. Check OHKOed. This same set can bluff Scarf and Specs very easily and completely obliterate their counterplay in doing so.

Deoxys is not an apt comparison because it's extremely frail, reliant on weak or inconsistent non-stab coverage to break its checks, and has a useless defensive typing.

Chi-Yu doesn't need any coverage at all. Its STABs alone shred offensive mons even without items or tera. And it has immunities and useful resistances. And it can fit moves like Taunt or Substitute if it wants to go even further.

Not to mention it can follow up anything that doesn't KO with Overheat.

We have plenty of speed control. We don't need one that's also a broken wallbreaker as well.

Z Yu just isn't even going to be good. To get those calcs you're posting, you need to get a yu without boots in safely (negative bulk, not fast and hazard weak), get a turn to plot while your opponent ideally just decides to switch, and then hope whatever switched in isn't just faster than you or is packing priority. Yu's defensive type doesn't matter if not choiced (which is only useful for psychic immunity), and the moment it clicks plot the set is immediately confirmed and you just... Revenge it. You're never going more than 1f1 with a plot Z yu unless your opponent is letting it. Z chien has just as crazy calcs- except is actually fast. Rocks not only mess this up badly, but unlike pao it just has even less entry points due to that speed stat. As a Z user, its almost always better just clicking stab tera buttons. Plot Z is just gimmicky and theres a reason that plot boots with tera is barely used in SV either.

Scarf yu as speed control is very much "speed control for the unboosted meta but loses to all other speed control". It needs modest for the power to actually deal with non-fire weak arc forms using fire blast, making it barely faster than deo n (who minds you also blows it up with e speed after hazards). Regardless of set it will always be more wallbreaker than speed control, with just about every single other viable scarfer (and eleki) being faster.

 

[hidin]

I think the difference of unbanning a Pokemon because it’s either needed or because it’s “deserved” should be clarified here, because why do I want to deal with Chi-Yu in this metagame as if it’s going to be some mid tier offensive clicker? Which it clearly isn’t. Defensive structures are already very awkward and constrained and Chi-Yu does nothing but worsen that along with adding a fake level of skill expression by “outplaying” which is honestly just accepting it’s going to tear you up and trying to scramble for a temporary check. It is too strong and doesn’t give us something that improves this tier, please keep it banned.

When it comes to Pokemon in the metagame, I don’t think much are really an issue but I am a little tired of the frequent Arceus CM wars I see in the tier, maybe time for a Arceus-Steel examination…or not. I’m fine either way. Just don’t unban Chi-Yu to try to make it more tolerable.

 

[OceanicGamer]

Since people are talking about , I wany to give my thoughts

I am personally with the idea of unbanning Chi-Yu. As Pooshi explains very well

Z Yu just isn't even going to be good. To get those calcs you're posting, you need to get a yu without boots in safely (negative bulk, not fast and hazard weak), get a turn to plot while your opponent ideally just decides to switch, and then hope whatever switched in isn't just faster than you or is packing priority. Yu's defensive type doesn't matter if not choiced (which is only useful for psychic immunity), and the moment it clicks plot the set is immediately confirmed and you just... Revenge it. You're never going more than 1f1 with a plot Z yu unless your opponent is letting it. Z chien has just as crazy calcs- except is actually fast. Rocks not only mess this up badly, but unlike pao it just has even less entry points due to that speed stat. As a Z user, its almost always better just clicking stab tera buttons. Plot Z is just gimmicky and theres a reason that plot boots with tera is barely used in SV either.

All these points are very relevant. Getting Chi-Yu on the field, clicking Nasty Plot, AND clicking Z is very hard versus most teams. Between Chi-Yus middling bulk and mediocre speed tier, any good, even decent player won't let this happen. The only time this can happen is versus defensive teams, but why not use another pokemon with a Z-move that's better versus other styles? Chi-Yu will probably become a very good Scarfer, and like Pooshi said

It needs modest for the power to actually deal with non-fire weak arc forms using fire blast,

which means some things can outspeed it with a boost, and it's switchins are still limited. However, I do think it will be hard to resist a Chi-Yu attack which is why it *might* be a bad idea to free the Pokemon, but even with that, I think it's smth to test back

 

[Runo]

Heavily agree with Hidin's take

If someone can explain to me how Chi-Yu or even Zacian will improve the unhealthy state this tier is in then sure. Otherwise I don't want these freed until UUbersPL ends at the very least. You're just adding another threat to account for with little gain.

A whole two Calm Mind Arceus lose to Chi-Yu up front, Steelceus and Grassceus and both can viably run Tera Water to absorb it's Fire stab. I mean cool you forced them to burn Tera but they still won the game especially if they boosted. Not sure how this is an argument. Zacian essentially does what Chien-Pao does breaking wise and can still wipe out "checks" like Magearna, significantly less justification to need it either with Chien-Pao gone. Similar to my reasoning for keeping Deo-S banned in NDOU, they don't add anything of significant value to a tier with other controversies and worse so Chi-Yu and Zacian aren't gonna be nobodies either. Zacian will most likely warp the tier around its presence and Chi-Yu will be a good mon at minimum. Kicking the can down the road and focusing on other things right now is a better use of our time.

 

[Poosh_i]

I think the difference of unbanning a Pokemon because it’s either needed or because it’s “deserved” should be clarified here, because why do I want to deal with Chi-Yu in this metagame as if it’s going to be some mid tier offensive clicker? Which it clearly isn’t. Defensive structures are already very awkward and constrained and Chi-Yu does nothing but worsen that along with adding a fake level of skill expression by “outplaying” which is honestly just accepting it’s going to tear you up and trying to scramble for a temporary check. It is too strong and doesn’t give us something that improves this tier, please keep it banned.

When it comes to Pokemon in the metagame, I don’t think much are really an issue but I am a little tired of the frequent Arceus CM wars I see in the tier, maybe time for a Arceus-Steel examination…or not. I’m fine either way. Just don’t unban Chi-Yu to try to make it more tolerable.

It should be unbanned because it's ban was done when the tier was in an entirely unproven state a year ago and with mainly the factor of having groudon legal giving it an absurd boost from passive sun. This tier is both much more properly developed and said circumstantial mon now being banned makes the ban incredibly arbitrary
, not really founded on any solid basis and is a ban without any player input.

Again, yes there are not many "direct" defensive switchins - but nobody is calling it overbearing in SV because it is a very linear mon and is not hard to "outplay" in the first place when the choiced sets are the only remotely consistent sets.

Lastly, i literally gave an example of why reintroducing it is an upside - another threat that arceus-steel needs to contend with.

 

[Poosh_i]

Heavily agree with Hidin's take

If someone can explain to me how Chi-Yu or even Zacian will improve the unhealthy state this tier is in then sure. Otherwise I don't want these freed until UUbersPL ends at the very least. You're just adding another threat to account for with little gain.

A whole two Calm Mind Arceus lose to Chi-Yu up front, Steelceus and Grassceus and both can viably run Tera Water to absorb it's Fire stab. I mean cool you forced them to burn Tera but they still won the game especially if they boosted. Not sure how this is an argument. Zacian essentially does what Chien-Pao does breaking wise and can still wipe out "checks" like Magearna, significantly less justification to need it either with Chien-Pao gone. Similar to my reasoning for keeping Deo-S banned in NDOU, they don't add anything of significant value to a tier with other controversies and worse so Chi-Yu and Zacian aren't gonna be nobodies either. Zacian will most likely warp the tier around its presence and Chi-Yu will be a good mon at minimum. Kicking the can down the road and focusing on other things right now is a better use of our time.

- Arceus Steel is forced to choose between tera water and tera fairy if it actually wants to answer the fire and fighting checks now. That matters

-Magearna is a terrible Zacian check idk why people say this so much. Arc Poi and landorus are far more sturdy answers and both are already considered very good. Zacian was barely considered a warping mon when landot was legal in SV because it almost ever only 1f1s with it at best. And unlike pao, the ability is not nearly as broken and fizzles out if zac is misused. Not going to go more in-depth on zac because thats a whole other rabbit hole

 

[Zrp200]

- Arceus Steel is forced to choose between tera water and tera fairy if it actually wants to answer the fire and fighting checks now. That matters

-Magearna is a terrible Zacian check idk why people say this so much. Arc Poi and landorus are far more sturdy answers and both are already considered very good. Zacian was barely considered a warping mon when landot was legal in SV because it almost ever only 1f1s with it at best. And unlike pao, the ability is not nearly as broken and fizzles out if zac is misused. Not going to go more in-depth on zac because thats a whole other rabbit hole

Introducing Chi-Yu also has the side effect of strongly reducing the viability of other steels, which is something I'm much less okay with.

I personally like to see Pokemon like Mega Lucario, Genesect, and Mega Metagross around; they're unique to National Dex, after all, Chi-Yu (especially scarf) checks all of these while resisting their priority.

At least there's a whole category of fighting types to force Arceus-Steel into Tera Fairy or Tera Flying. That's more of a metagame trend rather than the unhealthy influence of a single Pokemon.

 

[veti]

All these points are very relevant. Getting Chi-Yu on the field, clicking Nasty Plot, AND clicking Z is very hard versus most teams. Between Chi-Yus middling bulk and mediocre speed tier, any good, even decent player won't let this happen. The only time this can happen is versus defensive teams, but why not use another pokemon with a Z-move that's better versus other styles? Chi-Yu will probably become a very good Scarfer, and like Pooshi said

In ND Ubers, Chi Yu manages to find a place on webs teams and is a solid mon while pretty much always running Z moves, so I don't think its really that hard to click Nasty Plot (or even just click attacks and throw out a Dark Pulse stronger than specs and be able to switch moves after). Webs are already a broken playstyle due to CM Arceus forms and we don't need another excellent webs abuser.

Chi Yu also heavily restricts Balance teams which are already struggling in the meta after Arceus Water got banned.

A couple people saying it forces Arceus to tera, its not that bad for the tiers best tera abuser to terastalize.