Ubers National Dex Ubers Metagame Discussion

Pikaslayer2022 said:
https://pokepast.es/d5036f8e8830ee25
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Slurpuff is the lead and main Pokémon to start this team off. It’s level 93 in order to be fast enough to out pace most things and get down to the sash quicker than what would be able to be achieved at higher levels. Play rough is there in order to win the magic coat war against deoxys-speed but if you don’t care for the deoxys speed magic coat war you could go misty explosion to keep the sticky web up. Yawn over endeavor in order to keep Pokémon from setting up on the lead and forcing it to swap unless they give a Pokémon on this team a free turn.
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Chi-yu was the main purpose of building this team as its super powerful nasty plotted boosted stabs in fire blast, dark pulse, and flamethrower. Darkinium-z to drop anything that would threaten it or a defog as a boosted black hole eclipse ohkos ho-oh from full health while doing the same to all neutral targets. With koraidon it’s sun boosted attacks do massive damage and accomplish many things that it wouldn’t be able to do such as 2hkoing special defensive Pokémon such as chansey. However, the lack of bulk on the physical side makes chi-yu susceptible to extreme killer arceus that have a life orb on top but still take massive damage from an extreme speed. However, it is the 2nd most powerful mon on this team and has the highest chance of breaking through stall teams. That’s what the rest of the teammates are for mostly.
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Zacian is by far the 3rd most powerful mon on this team. Due to sticky web support it could run adamant nature further boosts its attacks and swords dance to boost its attacks further. With tera fighting close combat after a swords dance and intrepid sword it has a chance to ohko with a stab close combat on standard Primal Groudon ev spreads (tho I do suggest if you are gonna take the gamble check the calc on other potential groudon spreads)
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The second special attacker of the team and a lure for ho-oh. Once again due to the webs eternatus was given a modest nature to further boost its attacks. Meteor beam needs no introduction as it’s one of the main offensive sets for eternatus granting it a special attack boost after using it. Power herb to ignore the 2 turn affect. This allows it to fire a 120 base power rock move on anything. Tera fire to muscle through along side koraidons sun for powerful flamethrowers/fire blasts(if you prefer the power) while hitting fairies with sludge wave/sludge bomb(if you prefer the poison chance).
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This mon needs no introduction. This S- tier Pokémon is an amazing pokemon being able to break through Pokémon without needing a boost do to orichalcum pulse and life orb boosting its dragon claw, beefy low kicks, and sun boosted flare blitz. Koraidon is give swords dance and a jolly nature in order to tie with scarf koraidon under webs. Swords dance is to break and destroy the opponent if it gets a free turn.
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The mighty primal groudons omnipresent nature has found itself on this team as well. Abusing the webs with an offensive stealth rocks set and hitting hard with tera ground boosted precipice blades. Though if you feel like your not using stealth rocks that often you can run more into speed and run dragon claw as this set struggles with giratina-origin.
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I made a Smogon Account just to reply to this but ever since Gen 6 i've been using a similar Red-card Slurpuff set in OU. https://pokepast.es/1e82f36d780deb7a
I'm glad that there are other awesome slurpuff users out there on the internet.
 
Cancel cult said:
youve been cooking
ive seen people do a endure red card slurpuff. i think you might perfer that, as it will give you the option not to lead with it, let you potentially set up webs multiple times, and can remove your opponents lead if they attack. your team will be very effective, unless sticky webs is removed, in which case your team is left very vulnerable.
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Thanks for the recommendations! I will take them into account.
 
Some thoughts with regards to the meta balance:

1. Terastal has to be limited if not straight banning the whole thing
Notable mention: Xerneas, Zygarde, Arceus and Koraidon. Terastal as a mechanism is fun enough and involves a lot of stragegic thinking, but to keep the whole we must do something on those obviously broken abuser of terastal in order to maintain the meta healthy.

2. Complex ban or something simliar may adopted
Mgar is one of the most reliable check to Ekiller and it was straight banned just because of the move Encore, but again losing Mgar provided a unreasonable advantage to fat teams as Mgar is the only trapper viable in this meta. Same goes to Primals, which I think they also needs some sort of limitations such as limiting terastalise or just ban terastal specificly on them, as we have already banned tera from mega mechanism and primals as an alternative of mega should be completely reasonable to adopt such limit.

3. Retest some of the banned mon by applying limiter to make the tier more diverse
By limiting Terastal, mons such as Miraidon should be absolutely fine to bring back (but probably not calyrexS LMAO I dont even know how a proper limit should be apply on that horse in order to contain it in the tier and not making the tier unplayable, look at SV ubers now)

Further for the Mray we can limit its Item slot too and treat it as a regular mega. Shedinja could be also retest by banning its terastal, and its unique defensive value could also bring some new creativities to the meta too.

Any one of the above would require a lot of works so I am just suggesting it, and if you dont like my idea just ignore them :)
 
LouisIX said:
Some thoughts with regards to the meta balance:

1. Terastal has to be limited if not straight banning the whole thing
Notable mention: Xerneas, Zygarde, Arceus and Koraidon. Terastal as a mechanism is fun enough and involves a lot of stragegic thinking, but to keep the whole we must do something on those obviously broken abuser of terastal in order to maintain the meta healthy.

2. Complex ban or something simliar may adopted
Mgar is one of the most reliable check to Ekiller and it was straight banned just because of the move Encore, but again losing Mgar provided a unreasonable advantage to fat teams as Mgar is the only trapper viable in this meta. Same goes to Primals, which I think they also needs some sort of limitations such as limiting terastalise or just ban terastal specificly on them, as we have already banned tera from mega mechanism and primals as an alternative of mega should be completely reasonable to adopt such limit.

3. Retest some of the banned mon by applying limiter to make the tier more diverse
By limiting Terastal, mons such as Miraidon should be absolutely fine to bring back (but probably not calyrexS LMAO I dont even know how a proper limit should be apply on that horse in order to contain it in the tier and not making the tier unplayable, look at SV ubers now)

Further for the Mray we can limit its Item slot too and treat it as a regular mega. Shedinja could be also retest by banning its terastal, and its unique defensive value could also bring some new creativities to the meta too.

Any one of the above would require a lot of works so I am just suggesting it, and if you dont like my idea just ignore them :)
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This is all true. However, there is a lot of "limiting factors" in your proposal. One limiting terastal wouldn't exactly solve anything and an item slot removes what pokemon showdown is supposed to do which is being a battle simulator of the games without all the effort of constructing the perfect team over and over again. 2nd miradon would still be ban worth as z-moves combines with its power and near unresisted stab combo makes it so powerful. Third mega gengar is still very limiting and controlling with shadow tag and encore. If you used a status move and it doesn't limit mega gengar at all your pokemon is trapped and therefore removed, also it was a decent check to extreme killer at best, aka dragon dance variants could care less if mega gengar switched into it. Along with that most walls that use defog or stealth rocks can be trapped and remove further proofing the reason behind its ban.
 
To be honest the only thing I would do to this tier is unban Mega Rayquaza. I found that using Necrozoma-DM with Defense investment is already hard not to use when Zacian-C is such a threat and Arceus is mandatory on every team anyway. The thing Mega Ray changes in the team builder is likely to be Arceus forms running enough speed to creep at least Adamant. Since Mega Rayquaza can't tera it can picked off by the common Koraidon (no sun though), Zacian C, Eternatus, and Arceus now has will-o-wisp so running DD/SD is gonna be hard annoying without Lum.

I think Mega Rayquaza's Extreme Speed will be incredibly helpful for the tier to pick off Geomancy Xerneas, Zacian-C using tera, Koraidon, and Palkia-O. It also now has U-turn and while you are better off blasting off attacks it can give Mega Rayquaza a lot of utility as Scarfer. Lastly its raw power will likely be helpful for restricting Zygarde's tera of choice because right now it can run Fairy and be nearly unkillable without a Taunt Arceus.

If you are looking for something to be banned though Geomancy Xerneas is probably your best bet.
 
NDWC has reached the playoffs stage and we saw some interesting stuff that I'll talk about in a later post. I just wanted to give an update for now ~

The council has been keeping a close eye on the metagame and it is clear to us that, while we've reached a nice equilibrium where Choice Scarf Koraidon balances are the predominant playstyle and the better player usually wins the match, there are two remaining questionable elements: Koraidon and Terastal.

We have been discussing at length at how to best tackle these issues, and have some ideas. A survey will go live today for everyone to pitch in and give their opinions on these ideas and bring up other stuff. We waited a little with this in order to give a chance to NDWC players / spectators to get a proper look at / feel of the metagame.

Be on the lookout!
 
Hello everyone, the National Dex Ubers Council is putting out a survey to gauge public opinion on the current metagame.

Anyone with Smogon account may respond and we will be taking a particularly close look on those who have experience on the ladder or in tournaments. We will keep this open through 3:00 PM GMT-5 of Monday, June 12th, but the council will be reading responses as they come in, so respond when possible. It only takes a few minutes to respond, so please do so if you are invested in our metagame!

HERE is the third SV Natdex Ubers tiering survey. Please respond!
 
Eledyr said:
Hello everyone, the National Dex Ubers Council is putting out a survey to gauge public opinion on the current metagame.

Anyone with Smogon account may respond and we will be taking a particularly close look on those who have experience on the ladder or in tournaments. We will keep this open through 3:00 PM GMT-5 of Monday, June 12th, but the council will be reading responses as they come in, so respond when possible. It only takes a few minutes to respond, so please do so if you are invested in our metagame!

HERE is the third SV Natdex Ubers tiering survey. Please respond!
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I think i speak for everyone when i say, Screw Tera
 
I have infact, made another team https://pokepast.es/827eaa496a1e1c27
since i have no clue how to add images ima just explain each mon with no images

I shouldn't really have to explain why pdon is on the team, he is bulky, hits hard, good typing and can do either set up rocks, put sweepers on a timer with toxic, and nuke anything that doesn't resist precipice blades or stone edge (normally i run lava plume instead of stone edge but i needed a way to hit giratina-O)


Palkia-O is the mon i made this team for, water/dragon is a great typing and the stat changes Palkia got turned it from a mediocre mon to a genuine threat with good moves with a great 150 special attack to boot, an extra STAB boost from Lustrous Globe, and decent speed


Galvantula is the sticky web guy, thats about all he does. He sets up webs, then volt switches away, sticky web does make the hard hitting Palkia-O outspeed most mons though, so thats cool i guess


Marshadow is the anti set up on the team, with rock tomb to slow mons down, and spectral thief to yoink their boosts away (might change item to focus sash in the future) other than that he also helps deal with bulky mons like Giratina-O and Arceus-Dark, generally a good mon (i hope i have not tested any of this yet )


Arceus-Ground is the set up sweeper, that's about it, i do have taunt on it to let me set up on most hazard setters, and even without sticky web, it's still fast enough to outspeed a decent chunk of mons


Deoxys-Attack is the mixed nuke, running psycho boost as an insanely strong STAB move, low kick to get rid of the big heavy mons that run around this tier, shadow ball to bomb Giratina-O, Ultra Necrozma, and Mega Mewtwo Y, then e speed for good priority. He has no other real use because he will die if you sneeze on him
 
DingusDome said:
I have infact, made another team https://pokepast.es/827eaa496a1e1c27
since i have no clue how to add images ima just explain each mon with no images

I shouldn't really have to explain why pdon is on the team, he is bulky, hits hard, good typing and can do either set up rocks, put sweepers on a timer with toxic, and nuke anything that doesn't resist precipice blades or stone edge (normally i run lava plume instead of stone edge but i needed a way to hit giratina-O)


Palkia-O is the mon i made this team for, water/dragon is a great typing and the stat changes Palkia got turned it from a mediocre mon to a genuine threat with good moves with a great 150 special attack to boot, an extra STAB boost from Lustrous Globe, and decent speed


Galvantula is the sticky web guy, thats about all he does. He sets up webs, then volt switches away, sticky web does make the hard hitting Palkia-O outspeed most mons though, so thats cool i guess


Marshadow is the anti set up on the team, with rock tomb to slow mons down, and spectral thief to yoink their boosts away (might change item to focus sash in the future) other than that he also helps deal with bulky mons like Giratina-O and Arceus-Dark, generally a good mon (i hope i have not tested any of this yet )


Arceus-Ground is the set up sweeper, that's about it, i do have taunt on it to let me set up on most hazard setters, and even without sticky web, it's still fast enough to outspeed a decent chunk of mons


Deoxys-Attack is the mixed nuke, running psycho boost as an insanely strong STAB move, low kick to get rid of the big heavy mons that run around this tier, shadow ball to bomb Giratina-O, Ultra Necrozma, and Mega Mewtwo Y, then e speed for good priority. He has no other real use because he will die if you sneeze on him
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based sd/taunt groundceus (though adamant > jolly tbh)

galv isn't the best webs lead tho, loses to taunt arcs/deos hard. smeargle is probably the better webs lead tbh as it can pull some tricks with deos like nuzzle+spin. oh yeah and please don't use sash marshadow that set is absolute trash
 
This is the weirdest team I have ever made. Basculegion? Non-primal kyogre? Just scroll down.

Basculegion (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Last Respects
- Liquidation
- Wave Crash
- Head Smash
This Pokémon will always be last, with drizzle from kyogre to outspend everything, and a 400 power last respects as a bonus.

Kyogre @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Mild Nature
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Earthquake
This should be your second to last Pokémon to die. It paves the way for Basculegion.

Koraidon @ Life Orb
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Low Kick
- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Iron Head
This Pokémon needs no introduction. With a perfect Stab typing, it is an incredible offensive core.

Chi-Yu @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Or
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
Chi-Yu was made to counter Pdon and it works like a charm. If, for some reason, the opponents team has no Pdon, it can pair with the sun from Koraidon to kill Dusk Mane.

Spectrier @ Choice Specs
Ability: Grim Neigh
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Dark Pulse
- Draining Kiss
- Nasty Plot
This was made to kill both Giratina and Dusk Mane. It hits like a truck, but has the bulk of a toy truck. Part of the reason I made it was to call it “Specstrier”

Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Dragon Pulse
- Chilling Water
- Ice Beam
A very good tank overall, groundeus is annoying to all physical attackers except Kartana. It is a very good Switch-in to Koraidon
the first two Pokémon should be sent out last. The other 4 are designed to make sure nothing gets in Basculegion’s way, like arceus-normal and Pdon.
 
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imSilverLike said:
sash marshadow is anything BUT trash

other than that I agree with you though
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sash marshadow is in fact trash, here's why:

-it's unreliable. hazards completely ruin its gimmick and with deos being such a great HO lead and HO teams themselves being great at pressuring opponents to not let them defog, you're useless against the archetype you should be best against

-deadweight against a big portion of the playstyles. fatter teams like stall and balance always have a mon or multiple mons that completely wall it because sash marsh has no breaking power whatsoever with no boosting item. also, those teams don't have too many setup mons so you're totally useless in quite a lot of matchups.

-loses to some of the most broken sweepers rn, such as zygarde-c, xerneas and normalceus (cc doesn't ohko even a 0 HP/def arc from full and you lose to dd variants lol)

-outclassed at its role, if you want a revenge killer that is more reliable and actually useful for other roles scarf koraidon's the best speed control option rn, lo/band marsh can use sneak to pick stuff off while being an scary ass breaker, ekiller is ekiller, and there's always ditto as the de-facto revenge killer

so yeah it is trash don't use it people
 
dtc09 said:
based sd/taunt groundceus (though adamant > jolly tbh)

galv isn't the best webs lead tho, loses to taunt arcs/deos hard. smeargle is probably the better webs lead tbh as it can pull some tricks with deos like nuzzle+spin. oh yeah and please don't use sash marshadow that set is absolute trash
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so I fixed the team (because it was absolute garbage) https://pokepast.es/d1511fec2f06869b
i made some minor changes like switching Palkia-O from modest to Timid so it could actually outspeed things without webs, and completely removed the idea of webs lead for a few reasons
1. I needed a defogger since my team just lost if any hazards got set up
2. My team needed a special wall so i can avoid instantly imploding against xerneas
3. Ho-Oh is very annoying and I like that
 
Thanks to everyone who voted, we got 47 votes for our second survey, with approximately half of the responses at 22 users being qualified by our tournament / ladder metrics, so let's get into the results:

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Enjoyment is currently sitting at an average of 7.70/10, while stability is at a 6.55/10. This is a net loss compare to the last survey, and these numbers are even worse among the qualified playerbase, with an average of 7.09/10 for the enjoyment and 6.14/10 for the stability. It appears that, with metagame development, especially around Terastallization, the overall appreciation fell away. These are alarming factors, and the whole Tiering Council is aware of them.

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The next question was "How do you feel about Terastallization?". For a reminder, the four options were "Tiering action is required, and I would support a complete ban of it through a suspect test.", "Tiering action is required, and I would support a partial restriction of the mechanic in the form of a Tera List (restricting only certain Pokemon from using Terastallization) through a suspect test.", "No tiering action is required, but I would support to keep it in the watchlist.", and "No tiering action is required, and I would support it to get it removed from the watchlist.". While the results are mixed, a majority emerged as most people believe that Terastallization should be either restricted or completely banned: 61.7% of the overall survey sample voted for it, and this number increases up to 68.2% among the qualified playerbase. Moving to the said users...

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Moving on to the first Tera user, and that has been very controversial over the last months, Koraidon actually received a mixed feeling overall: while a majority was reached among the community to say that it is unhealthy (topping at 59.5%), overall the community did not reach a clear majority on whether it should be banned or only restricted from using Tera. The results among the qualified playerbase are pretty similar, with a stronger support for its ban though. It's clear that Koraidon has been very problematic as a whole, packing several qualities and bringing many things for its team, but being also one of the best abuser of Terastallization. The Tiering Council is aware of this, and intent to take actions soon on it.

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Second came Xerneas. This time, the results showed a clear result: a majority of the survey sample supports a restriction of Tera of Xerneas, and this both in the overall playerbase with a 59.6% support alone. The qualified one has an even more overwhelming support, with 86.4% of it supporting a Tera restriction. Something important can also be noticed, which is that no one among the qualified playerbase voted for Xerneas as being completely unhealthy in the current metagame, confirming even more that actions should be taken quickly for it accounting Tera. The Tiering Council has heard your voices, and actions will be taken really quickly.

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It seems that X&Y brought the two biggest Tera abusers. Once again for Zygarde-Complete, a strong majority supported a Tera restriction on it with 53.2% of the overall survey sample voting it. This feeling is also stronger among the qualified playerbase, while not being as overwhelming as for Xerneas, it's still a supermajority of 68.2% that support a Tera restriction. And yes, once again, no qualified player voted for it to be completely banned. The Tiering Council heard it, and actions will be taken quickly.

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Finally, Arceus was brought to this survey due to it being nominated several times in the last survey. However, its result show an overwhelming opinion that Arceus is actually fine by Ubers standards so far; a supermajority of 74.5% of the overall community voted for it as being fine by now. This is topped by an even stronger feeling among the qualified playerbase, which voted up 86.4% of it to be healthy and that no tiering actions should be taken right now. This does not mean that no actions will ever be taken for it however; as tiering actions will be taken in a short time, we expect the meta to evolve, and if it favors a bit too much Arceus, actions will be taken.

Thanks again to all who responded, if you have any questions feel free to ask in the National Dex Ubers Discord, here in this thread, or PM me / Guard.

ah, and finally:
Capture.JPG

No.
 
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LORD SAGIS said:
why is it the VR council taking a look at it? surely the tiering council should be the ones
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Just for a clarification, I wrote the survey results extremely late during the night, I'm talking indeed about the tiering council. Thanks for the feedback, I'll update the post :row:
 
Calyrex - #898 - Serebii.net Pokédex
Ursaluna | Pokédex

they're multiplying.
trick room became probobly the most viable its ever been in gen 9 natdex ubers, however it was still inconsistant because while calyrex was hard to deal with, it was basically the only reason to run trick room, and once it fell, you were left with melmetal and necrozma trying their best. however home has brought us a new pokemon: ursaluna. lets check its atributes real quick
hits incredibly hard
is very bulky
can ohko basically anything after a boost
single handedly makes trick room viable in a tier
this is just calyrex lite
now trick room is twice as hard to deal with, and it comes with stab ground/ice coverage. while it is early, i think we should consider the possibility of a trick room ban. granted, this could just be me being salty after losing to it, but it is at least worth considering.
 
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Cancel cult said:
Calyrex - #898 - Serebii.net Pokédex
View attachment 526124
they're multiplying.
trick room became probobly the most viable its ever been in gen 9 natdex ubers, however it was still inconsistant because while calyrex was hard to deal with, it was basically the only reason to run trick room, and once it fell, you were left with melmetal and necrozma trying their best. however home has brought us a new pokemon: ursaluna. lets check its atributes real quick
hits incredibly hard
is very bulky
can ohko basically anything after a boost
single handedly makes trick room viable in a tier
this is just calyrex lite
now trick room is twice as hard to deal with, and it comes with stab ground/ice coverage. while it is early, i think we should consider the possibility of a trick room ban. granted, this could just be me being salty after losing to it, but it is at least worth considering.
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While trick room is better than it has been I still don't think it is particularly great and is a matchup fish that is far too much feast or famine. It requires too many free turns against decent teams which really hurts it as a playstyle. Before it can sweep Caly needs to get a free switchin or setup trick room itself and generally needs +1 before it gets very scary. Ursaluna also needs the same as it doesn't leave enough holes in a team without a swords dance boost.

For a trick room team to win it usually needs to set up trick room 3 times, sometime twice, which is a lot more difficult to set up in practise than on paper. Defensive :necrozma-dusk-mane: will deal with :hatterene: while getting up rocks and taunt :yveltal: deals with every other setter (also completely shreds most defensive mons and ho leads). These are also standard sets on great mons so there is little opportunity cost in slapping them on your team. Preventing trick room from going up a 2nd or 3rd time should more or less be a gaurenteed win as long as the rest of your team isn't garbage and you don't throw by making stupid sacks.

This is my favourite team that I've made that I'll use as an example. The team is slightly outdated, but that would not make a difference v trick room.

gen2 lax v 2023 (Groudon) @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Spikes
- Precipice Blades
- Overheat
- Toxic


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#2 (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sunsteel Strike
- Toxic
- Moonlight


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Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Impish Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Toxic
- Defog
- Brave Bird


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beefasaurus rex (Zygarde) @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Coil
- Glare
- Thousand Arrows
- Rest


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held pdons mantle (Yveltal) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Taunt
- Knock Off


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tera stole my gig (Arceus-Water) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Earth Power
- Recover

:hatterene: is the standard lead on trick room so you lead :necrozma-dusk-mane: and sunsteel twice. If you're ballsy you can rock up instead of a second sunsteel if you think that the hat will be preserved instead of using healing wish. Use the physical walls and plan a sac to line up with the end of trick room to get :yveltal: in as it ends. It should be able to kill TR abuser still on the field as they'll be heavily chipped from moves or toxic. Use knock off if :cresselia: comes in as knock as it usually has mental herb and you need rocks and 0 SpD investment to get the OHKO on :cresselia:. In this case you can more or less repeat previous cycle of turns. If :magearna: comes in you can pretty safely taunt whilst you can dark pulse :calyrex-ice: which forces a tera (93.8% to OHKO and 100% w/ any hazards) or taunt which prevents trick room. From there it is more or less smooth sailing.

Taunt :arceus: also does a decent job in place of yveltal with the cost of a worse matchup into :cresselia: if you arn't running :arceus: dark.

TL;DR Slap Taunt somewhere on your team
 
bumboclaat said:
While trick room is better than it has been I still don't think it is particularly great and is a matchup fish that is far too much feast or famine. It requires too many free turns against decent teams which really hurts it as a playstyle. Before it can sweep Caly needs to get a free switchin or setup trick room itself and generally needs +1 before it gets very scary. Ursaluna also needs the same as it doesn't leave enough holes in a team without a swords dance boost.

For a trick room team to win it usually needs to set up trick room 3 times, sometime twice, which is a lot more difficult to set up in practise than on paper. Defensive :necrozma-dusk-mane: will deal with :hatterene: while getting up rocks and taunt :yveltal: deals with every other setter (also completely shreds most defensive mons and ho leads). These are also standard sets on great mons so there is little opportunity cost in slapping them on your team. Preventing trick room from going up a 2nd or 3rd time should more or less be a gaurenteed win as long as the rest of your team isn't garbage and you don't throw by making stupid sacks.

This is my favourite team that I've made that I'll use as an example. The team is slightly outdated, but that would not make a difference v trick room.

gen2 lax v 2023 (Groudon) @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Spikes
- Precipice Blades
- Overheat
- Toxic


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#2 (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sunsteel Strike
- Toxic
- Moonlight


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Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Impish Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Toxic
- Defog
- Brave Bird


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beefasaurus rex (Zygarde) @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Coil
- Glare
- Thousand Arrows
- Rest


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held pdons mantle (Yveltal) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Taunt
- Knock Off


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tera stole my gig (Arceus-Water) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Earth Power
- Recover

:hatterene: is the standard lead on trick room so you lead :necrozma-dusk-mane: and sunsteel twice. If you're ballsy you can rock up instead of a second sunsteel if you think that the hat will be preserved instead of using healing wish. Use the physical walls and plan a sac to line up with the end of trick room to get :yveltal: in as it ends. It should be able to kill TR abuser still on the field as they'll be heavily chipped from moves or toxic. Use knock off if :cresselia: comes in as knock as it usually has mental herb and you need rocks and 0 SpD investment to get the OHKO on :cresselia:. In this case you can more or less repeat previous cycle of turns. If :magearna: comes in you can pretty safely taunt whilst you can dark pulse :calyrex-ice: which forces a tera (93.8% to OHKO and 100% w/ any hazards) or taunt which prevents trick room. From there it is more or less smooth sailing.

Taunt :arceus: also does a decent job in place of yveltal with the cost of a worse matchup into :cresselia: if you arn't running :arceus: dark.

TL;DR Slap Taunt somewhere on your team
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yeah, also if you are running water spout :kyogre: kyorgre u basically kill every TR mon once hatt goes down unless ofc they have lunala for some reason. TR without :ursaluna: ursa (which I do still see alot) gets entierly walled by two EXTREMLY common mons: spdef :groudon-primal: groudon-primal and :necrozma-dusk mane: necrozma-dm also your the beefasaurus rex guy who makes my groudon weep right, unless u copied a team idk...
 
Larrycharizard1 said:
yeah, also if you are running water spout :kyogre: kyorgre u basically kill every TR mon once hatt goes down unless ofc they have lunala for some reason. TR without :ursaluna: ursa (which I do still see alot) gets entierly walled by two EXTREMLY common mons: spdef :groudon-primal: groudon-primal and :necrozma-dusk mane: necrozma-dm also your the beefasaurus rex guy who makes my groudon weep right, unless u copied a team idk...
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Yeah I made the team. Somewhat annoyingly, it is the first and still best team I made in the tier. Timid water spout :kyogre: is probably about the scariest thing for it to run into if it is played well. That + timid eruption :groudon: make me heavily consider making :yveltal: timid due to the number of times I've lost it T1.

Started playing the tier because of nostalgia for :zygarde-complete: from gen 7 ubers and it has been a lot of fun. It is going to be sad when either it or tera goes because one will definitely have to. Though it will be nice to feel satisfied with team that doesn't have :groudon: :ho-oh: :necrozma-dusk-mane: because of how constraining :xerneas: is on anything that isn't HO or stall (definitely havn't lost to sub
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:xerneas: due to two blades and 3 scared fires missing... nope that never happened).

Back to the topic of trick room, last mon :weakness-policy: :Necrozma-dusk-mane: is way scarier and better than full trick room in my opinion. I'd rate trick room somehwere around B/B- on mid ladder and quickly getting worse the higher up you go. Having to build a team that can somewhat reasonably deal with :koraidon: :necrozma-ultra: :zacian-crowned: :salamence-mega: is going to deal with trick room fairly easily since they're all physical attackers anyways.

Truth be told I don't really feel like :groudon-primal: should be good against TR even though in practice it is usually decent. It'll sponge a hit, maybe two and waste a TR turn and maybe revenge something which ends up being enough v TR if you arn't relying on it to do the heavy lifting. And that really gets to the crux of the issues that TR has and why I'd never run it. It requires free turns you arn't ever going to consistently get against any team other than full stall and even then :dondozo: walls everything but :ursaluna: even without a curse and :giratina: can take care of that. Unless you really want to specifically use :calyrex-ice: or :melmetal: I don't get why you'd use TR over something like webs or screens. :fairium-z: :xerneas: or CM:necrozma-ultra: are a lot more fun to cheese with if you want that route imo.
 
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