Ubers National Dex Ubers Metagame Discussion

[Bobsican]

Commenting on the random comments that were given on the survey:

: Yveltal has been brought up multiple times as a concern, and frankly it's not too surprising, Yveltal's mixed offenses and utility results in every team requiring a mixed wall to handle it, in particular also wanting to be faster to avoid being immediately Taunted or risking Dark Pulse flinches, or in other words besides Primal Groudon, at least one of Eternatus, an Arceus forme, or Primal Kyogre. Ho-Oh would also count if it didn't like coming into Knock Off as then it's forced to Terastallize to remain as a reliable Defogger.

: Ultra Necrozma has been a concern for a while and remains this way, it sure is interesting to find out I'm not the only one that thinks the same of this Pokemon being simply unhealthy, with my prior post in this thread going into more details, but at the same time I don't feel it is too overbearing yet unless Teras get banned, as then the counterplay for it becomes limited to say the least.

Besides some joke unban posts like for M-Rayquaza, there was also a voter seriously pushing for freeing Koraidon and Miraidon, and to that I'll just reply the whole controversy the bikes have done in ND Ubers, with Koraidon simply having no legitimate checks beyond Tera mind games, and Miraidon just brute forcing past the whole metagame with no meme checks that do little else like Dachsbun for Koraidon, or Clodsire for Xerneas to even defend it at all, especially with the help of a Z-Crystal allowing it to just OHKO anything neutrally effective that doesn't resist whichever move it uses at +1 bar Chansey and Blissey, which are pivoting bait to then let any physical attacker in the metagame gain free momentum, and thus overall playing against Miraidon demanded constant coin flips with next to no punishment for the Miraidon user if failed, while one or two for the opponent often take the whole matchup and enable a sweep. If what that user wanted is just a glorified National Dex AG, then refer to this as well, NDAG is basically the Politics thread equivalent of a metagame by attracting a lot of controversy for free as the userbase can't handle it well, and while it's sad that we can't have nice things, trying to reshape a tier to specifically NDAG just comes off as very egocentrical and short-sighted.

Tera Blast was also brought up once, and while it's a common thing to bring up regarding whether it's the root for Teras being broken, the truth is that for this tier only Zacian-C uses that move, so at best it's an ineffective way of tackling the problem, and at worst it's pushing general tiering policy as by then it'd be easier to argue for a Zacian-C ban as it's the only broken user of a move, the same way G-Darmanitan isn't freed into NDOU by banning Gorilla Tactics, or how Tatsugiri is banned in DOU over banning Commander.

Moody was also brought up, and while it's really only used by Smeargle as Baton Pass is banned and more win-oriented uses of it are limited in a tier where phazing and offense are common (thus limiting free turns for this sort of strategies), one can argue that getting +2 Speed on your suicide lead so that now it can hinder even more foes with stuff like Spore, Nuzzle, or Mortal Spin can be annoying, but Smeargle's lacking stats and inability to run offensive sets (Smeargle's +6 Atk Extreme Speed has about the same damage output as +2 Extreme Killer Arceus, for instance) make the use of the ability too tame to be really worth suspect testing compared to other stuff IMO.

 

[bumboclaat]

Moody was also brought up, and while it's really only used by Smeargle as Baton Pass is banned and more win-oriented uses of it are limited in a tier where phazing and offense are common (thus limiting free turns for this sort of strategies), one can argue that getting +2 Speed on your suicide lead so that now it can hinder even more foes with stuff like Spore, Nuzzle, or Mortal Spin can be annoying, but Smeargle's lacking stats and inability to run offensive sets (Smeargle's +6 Atk Extreme Speed has about the same damage output as +2 Extreme Killer Arceus, for instance) make the use of the ability too tame to be really worth suspect testing compared to other stuff IMO.

Mainly going to reply to this bit as (I think) I'm the only person who brought up Moody. It is purely due to the extra turn on lead sets. I didn't think of nor would consider Belly Drum, BP, nor anything offensive. Getting that extra turn of utility for virtually no downside is a bit silly, especially when you need to guess between Spore/Nuzzle if it is not a known team. The downside to -1 speed is pretty minimal while the free turn can pretty frequently be pretty signficant. The most extreme example is a time a Webs / Nuzzle / Endeavor / Mortal Spin took 4 mons with a fair bit of luck (full para every turn + PB miss) due to a T1 Speed boost.

: Yveltal has been brought up multiple times as a concern, and frankly it's not too surprising, Yveltal's mixed offenses and utility results in every team requiring a mixed wall to handle it, in particular also wanting to be faster to avoid being immediately Taunted or risking Dark Pulse flinches, or in other words besides Primal Groudon, at least one of Eternatus, an Arceus forme, or Primal Kyogre. Ho-Oh would also count if it didn't like coming into Knock Off as then it's forced to Terastallize to remain as a reliable Defogger.

Frankly the only mons I'd call actual good switchins are CM Arceus-Dark,Arceus-Fairy, Zacian-C, and maybe Eternatus. Yeah Eternatus isn't 2HKOed by Dark Pulse, but it is still forced into a Recover anyways and Oblivion Wing heals enough to be a freeish click anyways. I definitely wouldn't include Primal Groudon as it is stupidly risky to switchin and even defensive gets dropped by Wing -> Pulse. Yeah Knock Off annoys bulkier teams and likewise Sucker Punch for offensive teams. It is weaker to Stealth Rock than almost any mon in the metagame. Answering it defensively is rough, but some mons are like that. I only really hate it on webs as it is quite consistent at keeping those up.

 

[Cancel cult]

Tera Blast was also brought up once, and while it's a common thing to bring up regarding whether it's the root for Teras being broken, the truth is that for this tier only Zacian-C uses that move, so at best it's an ineffective way of tackling the problem, and at worst it's pushing general tiering policy as by then it'd be easier to argue for a Zacian-C ban as it's the only broken user of a move, the same way G-Darmanitan isn't freed into NDOU by banning Gorilla Tactics, or how Tatsugiri is banned in DOU over banning Commander.

To tell you the truth, I think a Tera Blast ban might actually be a good idea. While Tera Blast itself doesn't deserve the ban, the only mon using it is Zacian, and removing it from Zacian's toolkit would make it much less banworthy. And Deoxys-Attack is the only other mon I have ever even seen run Tera Blast in this tier. Zacian has an important place in the meta, and removing it could cause more harm than good. Removing Tera Blast on the other hand, while dubious in terms of policy, has no downsides other than the precident it sets.

 

[Bobsican]

To tell you the truth, I think a Tera Blast ban might actually be a good idea. While Tera Blast itself doesn't deserve the ban, the only mon using it is Zacian, and removing it from Zacian's toolkit would make it much less banworthy. And Deoxys-Attack is the only other mon I have ever even seen run Tera Blast in this tier. Zacian has an important place in the meta, and removing it could cause more harm than good. Removing Tera Blast on the other hand, while dubious in terms of policy, has no downsides other than the precident it sets.

Deoxys-A uses Tera Blast as well, yeah, but it's not in a manner to overwhelm its otherwise reliable counterplay. it already tends to run Shadow Ball, and Tera Blast merely enables it to follow up with a strong STAB while "ignoring" the stat drop of Psycho Boost. Meanwhile Zacian-C is the one you're even admitting to have a broken set out of Tera Blast, as it can then play around the main check virtually every team uses (Primal Groudon), meaning that this seems more like a biased argument than a logical one, especially as Zacian-C isn't really a mon used to check stuff per-say and is more of an opressive tool for offense teams that can play around everything but Dondozo (which is limited to stall). I think it'd be beneficial to talk about the "harm" that a Zacian-C ban could theoretically do if anything, which seems marginal at best as it's mainly seen in offense teams, which are already currently the trend, and if anything a ban on it should enable non-stall teams to not have to require Primal Groudon and at least one of Ho-Oh, Zygarde, Alomomola, Pheromosa and Ditto. One could argue that Zacian-C is the reason teams without Primal Groudon are rare, even, limiting teambuilding.

 

[bumboclaat]

Most people are probably aware by now Terastalization is here to stay. Every couple of months or after something big has happen I like to make a post yap about metagame stuff. I've planned to make one once the Beers & Buds tournament concludes discussing what happens there, but that will be sometime in January and there have been a few things on my mind lately...

The Big Three
​

These are not the three best mons in the tier, but they arguably have the most impact in the builder. I'd be remiss to not give Dragon Dance Zygarde an honourable mention. That is underselling it, but I've written a lot a lot about it and probably will later in this post anyways. For now the focus is on these three. The main reason I've decided to highlight these three is how easily they can just plow through a lot of otherwise good teams if they are not very conciously accounted for when building. This does apply to other mons, but their counterplay naturally finds itself on teams subconciously.

For example, Zacian-C is an excellent mon, but most non HO teams don't need to consider it all that much in the builder. Primal Groudon + Ground-immune check means you'll generally be alright enough. That ground-immune check is likely to be Giratina-O or Ho-Oh in most cases which would still be go-to options for hazard control even if Zacian-C was banned. Primal Kyogre is similar and is the reason why fat balances / semistalls that drop Primal Groudon near universally have at least two of Blissey, Eternatus, Ferrothorn, or Garganacl. Primal Groudon by itself makes playing around Primal Kyogre managable at worst for slower paced balance teams. Primal Groudon may not feel like a S+ mon on a game to game basis, but its ability to soft check nearly everything and hard check otherwise oppressing mons such as Zacian-C and Primal Kyogre free up so much space in the builder in a way that no other mon can.

Ultra Necrozma is the primary impetus for this post. I think I first mentioned feeling increasingly irritated with it presence sometime around May. At that time, I said that it was a bit silly due to the constraints it imposes in the teambuilder. Since then, my stance has only strengthened and the realization that a couple of my fellow council members hold similar sentiments had a large influence in making this post. Adem and I hold similar views on Ultra Necrozma. Bob has implied that he at least dislikes the restrictions Ultra Necrozma poses in the teambuilder, but I am not sure whether he views it as banworthy or not. I do not know how the rest of the council feels, nor do I intend to speak for any of them. These are my views and do not interpret them as the council’s nor expect immediate tiering action.

The crux of the issue is precisely that – Ultra Necrozma’s impact in the builder. This does not present itself in-game as Ultra Necrozma is a threat that one can handwave away. One can keep up the offensive pressure to prevent it from having room to setup when running HO while Arceus or Marshadow can revenge kill it.

Any other playstyle though? You either have solid counterplay to it or you will likely lose. This leads to Ultra Necrozma existing in state of feast or famine. Consequently, it has pretty significant consistency issues as it forces its hard counterplay onto most teams and lacks the tools to circumvent it. Marshadow, Arceus-Dark, and Yveltal are fantastic mons regardless, but their ubiquity is driven by Ultra Necrozma and its lack of soft checks.

Sure some mons constitute a soft check on paper, but it doesn’t really work that way in practice. Primal Groudon might survive +1 Earthquake, but it is also a prime target for Ultra Necrozma to setup on and survives by the skin of its teeth while not KOing back. Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM has similar issues with Earthquake and has significant issues with mind games despite its 4x Psychic resit. Even Coil Zygarde gets OHKOed by +1 Light That Burns the Sky.

Marshadow, Arceus-Dark, and Yveltal are not mandatory for a good team. Plenty of good teams exist without any of them, but outside of HO they will nearly always have at least one mon with Tera Dark, primarily due to an inadequate supply of soft counterplay. The thing is, none of the mons that run Tera Dark even want to. The exception is Alomomola which rarely will ever want to tera anyways so really doesn’t care.

The most common Tera Dark user, Arceus-Fairy, runs it because it doesn’t need to tera often and Tera Dark maintains its Dark-type resistance to handling Yveltal and Arceus-Dark, a big reason for its use so it is low drawback. It would much rather be running Tera Poison or Water. The uncommon Tera Dark Eternatus finds itself in a similar boat. It doesn’t often want to tera to begin with so it can afford to tech Tera Dark if the team needs it since it can naturally check Ultra Necrozma with Dynamax Cannon.

The last common Tera Dark user, Ho-Oh, does not like using it at all. Other than some marginal benefits into Psyspam, it would much rather be running a different tera. Tera Dark means that Ho-Oh transitions from a decent at worst Marshadow / Zacian-C check to getting deleted by them. Sometimes though, you need to work with what you have. Ultimately, fitting adequate counterplay to these two is a hell of a lot easier than doing the same for Ultra Necrozma so it is a viable, yet uncommon option. Additionally, none of these mons actually switch into Ultra Necrozma safely. Sure it will probably Dragon Dance, but none are particularly keen to take even an unboosted Photon Geyser. Additionally, all of these mons are reliant on tera to actually check Ultra Necrozma or they just get blown up. This is a very different dynamic compared to Zacian-C which at least usually has to use tera itself. Speaking of, Zacian-C also deletes every mon mentioned so far.

Ubers has more stringent standards for what constitutes an unhealthy presence as the power level inherently results in a level of centralization that would be deemed unacceptable in other tiers. If one were to solely watch replays the notion that Ultra Necrozma would even be candidate for tiering is laughable. However, this is only due to the harsh restrictions it imposes in the teambuilder. The severity of these restrictions rises to a degree that tiering action should be considered.

Marshadow is a healthy type of broken. The word broken seems a tad strong, but when I think about what I’ll be writing in this section, broken is apt. I’m primarily talking about Choice Band Marshadow. Bulk Up is decent on the right team and AoA is a shade above mid. Even though Marshadium-Z has done some stuff in the tournament, I’m still not really a believer. Saying Marshadow is good is not some groundbreaking revelation. That it is S- despite its frailty and near total lack of defensive utility should speak for itself. The purpose of this is not to glaze Marshadow using every superlative that comes to mind, so lets get to it.

Upon asking your average player about which mons are amongst the best in the metagame, Marshadow frequently finds itself on the list, but is conspicuously absent when asked about the most oppressive. The usual suspects of Zacian-C, Zygarde, and to a lesser degree – Yveltal were all mentioned as issues plaguing the tier, but nary a whisper of Marshadow was something I found surprising.

Marshadow is not remotely banworthy, but it is something I’d consider significantly more oppressive than either Zygarde or Zacian-C. It is at worst good into every archetype except stall and psyspam. It does not take metagame knowledge to see why Marshadow is good. The speed on top of that infamous STAB combination augmented by high base power moves with strong priority in a tier containing plenty of Psychic-types.

As silly as Marshadow can be, this does come with some significant drawbacks which keep it quite balanced. Its choice lock means that it is often forced into a hit and run playstyle in the early- and mid-game. Life Orb sets do circumvent this, but the chip damage quickly puts Marshadow in range of the few attacks it can survive with its paper-thin bulk. It is also a significantly worse breaker and cleaner while being significantly more reliant on tera.

That Life Orb chip results in Marshadow having significant struggles against Calm Mind Arceus formes that its damage calcs would suggest it should be able to beat. Maintaining health to take that Precipice Blades, Dynamax Cannon, or Judgment late game plays a significant role in what makes Marshadow as scary as it is.

So how do you handle it? That depends on what sort of team you’re running, but part of the reason Arceus-Ground, Chi-Yu, and Eternatus have been picking up steam on HO is because they can take a hit and OHKO it back. Marshadow also loses most of its threat level if Webs are up which contributes to it being the strongest HO archetype as maintaining Webs cripples it.

Even if the metagame leans offensive, it isn’t HO dominant so most other teams are probably going to want some form of defensive counterplay. So, what does that look like? The list of traditional counters starts and ends at Coil Zygarde. It has the natural bulk to deal with Marshadow without wholly forfeiting its ability to check the other stuff it needs. Additionally, trading some extra health to let Marshadow steal a Coil boost and Glaring it will usually render Marshadow a non-factor for the rest of the game. Tera Fairy Garganacl counters Marshadow, but it must get that tera off as it is OHKOed by Low Kick.

As splashable as it can feel at times, Coil Zygarde is not something that fits on every or even most teams at this point. It is exploitable as its ever been and Tera Water is setup fodder for Dragon Dance Zygarde. Despite a small list of counters, there are fortunately a bevy of soft and hard Marshadow checks that naturally slot onto teams.

Usually this is going to consist of a Dark-type + some offensive or defensive check such as Ho-Oh or Eternatus, but the degree to which these mons are punished for switching into the wrong move relegates them to checks rather than counters. For example, Low Kick still 2HKOes even fully physically defensive Yveltal. As constraining as Marshadow can seem in the builder the patchwork approach of soft checks usually works well enough in game.

Over longer games Marshadow will likely eventually click the correct move, but any mistakes are harshly punishing. Marshadow may be able to survive a few important moves such as uninvested Precipice Blades, uninvested Judgment, or Dynamax Cannon, but after even a couple turns of Stealth Rock or poison via Toxic Spikes it finds itself in range of these attacks. In some games Marshadow’s health does not matter, in others it may find itself needing to preserve HP for late-game Calm Mind Arceus formes.

The choice lock is also pretty significant due how exploitable this can be. Dragon Dance Zygarde cannot switch-in, but it can take advantage and come in after a KO as even Tera Ghost Poltergeist does not OHKO. Furthermore, its bulk means Marshadow can’t simply switch out and Shadow Sneak later without a ton of chip as Shadow Sneak does not even break Zygarde-C’s Substitute without Tera Ghost. Wallbreaker Eternatus has a similar dynamic and a Poltergeist immunity to boot.

At preview it might seem like Marshadow is going to come in and claim half the team, but the degree to which any mistakes are punished heavily limits what it can do. Furthermore, the Primal Groudon that is on almost every BO and balance team can always trade in a pinch if it really needs to. The fat balance teams that drop Primal Groudon will often have Garganacl or something like Alomomola that can pivot in a few times without being forced to Wish. In a lot of ways Marshadow feels like the offensive equivalent of Coil Zygarde or Ho-Oh. Strong, but fair, and reasonable to deal with if addressed in the builder.

Since Xerneas’s ban, Life Orb Yveltal has taken the mantle arguably been the most influential mon in the tier in battle and in the builder. The degree to which Yveltal has warped the metagame around itself is inescapable, to the point where two respondents requested it be considered to tiering action – resulting a three-way tie with Ultra Necrozma and Adem for the most write-ins. Personally, I’m there yet. If there is an argument for banning Yveltal, it likely stems from it being too oppressive on Sticky Web teams. Furthermore, Yveltal is the root cause of many aspects of this metagame that people dislike.

Perhaps the most obvious way Yveltal has centralized the tier around itself is the impact it has had on the Arceus metagame. Prior to the Xerneas ban the standard support Arceus ran a Bold Nature and 307 Speed. This spread is facing extinction almost solely due to the degree it is taken advantage of by Yveltal as even Arceus-Fairy, in theory a counter, will eventually succumb.

Being outsped and being denied access to Recover via Taunt forced players to adapt and Timid with investment to outspeed Yveltal (usually Chi-Yu) as well has since become the bare minimum. The thing is…even the obscene bulk courtesy of being a stat stick isn’t enough to reliably switch into Life Orb Yveltal long-term. Without some (248 / 52 SpD) investment, Arceus formes are not long-term switch-ins as Oblivion Wing does enough damage to force a Recover, especially with any hazard up.

So what is actually required to be a consistent defensive switch-in? Well we don’t have any real defensive Steel-types, but Dark-type moves are what you need to be able to switch into anyways. The mon also has to outspeed Yveltal and meaningfully threaten it in return or at least Toxic it while having recovery. That outspeeding part is pretty important as against non HO Yveltal it will need to switch in more than once. Fezandipiti for example switches in, will likely beat it 1v1, but because it gets locked out of Roost by Taunt it is relegated to a soft check.

So what options do we have? Arceus-Fairy and Calm Mind Arceus-Dark…and uh…SpD Tera Fairy Eternatus sorta. This is why defensive Arceus-Ground sets have nearly vanished. Defensive Arceus-Dark can 1v1 it, but it really wants a Bold Nature and isn’t keen to use almost all of its Recovers to do so. When a mon has such limited switchins it is so much easier to run said switch-ins, especially when they can do more than just answer one mon. Otherwise we’d still be seeing fat balances run Magearna.

A huge part of the issue is a lot of mons that can trade or soft check Yveltal do not switch in. Defensive Primal Groudon may OHKO with Overheat (75% of the time), but are you really switching that it? Ho-Oh finds itself in a similar conundrum due to Knock Off. From experience, about the only mon that can switch in and happily trade is defensive Primal Kyogre. That is also part of what makes it so good, trading v otherwise annoying mons in poor matchups. Yveltal does have plenty of offensive counterplay, but it better not be weak to Sucker Punch. Even Zacian-C has to fear the trending Tera Fire Heat Wave that has become commonish on webs.

Notably, this is the first time tera was mentioned. While it is a great tera user, it often doesn’t need it and although those Tera Dark calcs are eye-watering, I find it incredibly overrated. Most of the benefits come from the increased power of Sucker Punch which I find to be a bit too situational and inherently inconsistent due to the nature of the mind games involved. The defensive utility against Ultra Necrozma is nice, but again…mind games and +1 Stone Edge still does 55 so it better be healthy and it is still a roll to OHKO.

As mentioned, Tera Fire Yveltal has picked up amongst tournament players after being popular on the ladder for a while – it isn’t all tomfoolery. It may be webs exclusive, but Yveltal is nigh mandatory on webs at this point and Tera Fire plays a pretty big role in keeping them up due to stuffing defensive Ho-Oh + support Arceus-Fairy structures and a big reason why they’ve fallen out of favour. It is another one of those punishers of passivity that I quite like even if it effortlessly goobed me when it started popping up. Switching to offensive Ho-Oh made it quite manageable. Ho-Oh truly is the GOAT.

As for why Yveltal is maybe banworthy on webs…it is great at keeping the webs up while having a fantastic speed tier to abuse webs. Webs are essentially going to make Yveltal outpace your entire team unless you have boots Eternatus. It isn’t pretty but will win the trade and is part of why I prefer boots on defensive Eternatus over Leftovers. If using Yveltal outside of HO I’m quite partial to Tera Flying or Poison.

To wrap this up, at the beginning I said Yveltal is a big driver of things people don’t like. All of the stuff listed as good counterplay to Yveltal loses to Zacian-C. The Bold Arceus formes that Yveltal has caused to go extinct? They were passable Marshadow switch-ins and were 3HKOed by +1 Tera Ground Thousand Arrows. A big reason to use Dragon Dance Zygarde is because it does take advantage of Yveltal offensively if it boosts up or is boosted as it comes in. Dark Pulse doesn’t OHKO and Zygarde can get that second boost, OHKO Yveltal back and remain out of priority range. Dragon Tail’s disruption also makes it much easier to remove webs.

Throughout writing this I’ve gone damn, maybe Yveltal really is worthy of a suspect test. At the same time, a through point is that Zacian-C beats most of the defensive counterplay to the stuff I’ve talked about. I’m on the fence about Zacian-C as I find it more annoying than banworthy. There was other stuff I wanted to talk about such as Fezandipiti, Zarude, Zygarde, and some Primal Groudon sets I’ve been enjoying recently, but this long enough already. Maybe I'll make another post discussing that stuff in a few weeks, but its more likely that will happen after the tournament is over.

tl;dr: Ban Shadow Tag. Ban Ultra Necrozma. Maybe ban Zacian-C. R8 is still very much missed.

 

[Cancel cult]

"I looked, and there was a pale horse, and its rider's name was Death."
-Revelation 6:8


Alright, time to share something I have been cooking up. I already showed it on the Discord, but I want to share it here because 1: I think it has potential, and 2: It is really funny.
A few weeks ago, I realised that at +1, Calyrex-Ice outspeeds Yveltal by one point. This ultimately led me to the hilarious idea of Scarf Calyrex on webs. This joke quickly turned into a "Wait, that might actually work!" I have tested it, and it is very usable, but I have not tested it to the extent I would like to. So here are the reasons you should run it:
-Ice is a great offensive type that so far is only really accomplished on webs with Kyurem
-As One allows it to snowball
-It threatens to 2HKO a lot, so there won't be a lot of switch ins
-It has pretty good bulk, letting it potentially take a hit from something it doesn't OHKO
-It will force switches, since people don't want to give it a boost
-It is really funny
Now, it is obviously not perfect. In fact, it is far from it. It fails to reliably 2HKO the troublesome Zacian and NDM without heavy hazard support (Spidops is the future, trust), and at +1 it still struggles to secure some kills. However, I still think that with the right positioning, it has the potential to do some serious damage.

 

[kanato]

Ultra Necrozma is the primary impetus for this post. I think I first mentioned feeling increasingly irritated with it presence sometime around May. At that time, I said that it was a bit silly due to the constraints it imposes in the teambuilder. Since then, my stance has only strengthened and the realization that a couple of my fellow council members hold similar sentiments had a large influence in making this post. Adem and I hold similar views on Ultra Necrozma. Bob has implied that he at least dislikes the restrictions Ultra Necrozma poses in the teambuilder, but I am not sure whether he views it as banworthy or not. I do not know how the rest of the council feels, nor do I intend to speak for any of them. These are my views and do not interpret them as the council’s nor expect immediate tiering action.

The crux of the issue is precisely that – Ultra Necrozma’s impact in the builder. This does not present itself in-game as Ultra Necrozma is a threat that one can handwave away. One can keep up the offensive pressure to prevent it from having room to setup when running HO while Arceus or Marshadow can revenge kill it.

Any other playstyle though? You either have solid counterplay to it or you will likely lose. This leads to Ultra Necrozma existing in state of feast or famine. Consequently, it has pretty significant consistency issues as it forces its hard counterplay onto most teams and lacks the tools to circumvent it. Marshadow, Arceus-Dark, and Yveltal are fantastic mons regardless, but their ubiquity is driven by Ultra Necrozma and its lack of soft checks.

Sure some mons constitute a soft check on paper, but it doesn’t really work that way in practice. Primal Groudon might survive +1 Earthquake, but it is also a prime target for Ultra Necrozma to setup on and survives by the skin of its teeth while not KOing back. Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM has similar issues with Earthquake and has significant issues with mind games despite its 4x Psychic resit. Even Coil Zygarde gets OHKOed by +1 Light That Burns the Sky.

Marshadow, Arceus-Dark, and Yveltal are not mandatory for a good team. Plenty of good teams exist without any of them, but outside of HO they will nearly always have at least one mon with Tera Dark, primarily due to an inadequate supply of soft counterplay. The thing is, none of the mons that run Tera Dark even want to. The exception is Alomomola which rarely will ever want to tera anyways so really doesn’t care.

The most common Tera Dark user, Arceus-Fairy, runs it because it doesn’t need to tera often and Tera Dark maintains its Dark-type resistance to handling Yveltal and Arceus-Dark, a big reason for its use so it is low drawback. It would much rather be running Tera Poison or Water. The uncommon Tera Dark Eternatus finds itself in a similar boat. It doesn’t often want to tera to begin with so it can afford to tech Tera Dark if the team needs it since it can naturally check Ultra Necrozma with Dynamax Cannon.

The last common Tera Dark user, Ho-Oh, does not like using it at all. Other than some marginal benefits into Psyspam, it would much rather be running a different tera. Tera Dark means that Ho-Oh transitions from a decent at worst Marshadow / Zacian-C check to getting deleted by them. Sometimes though, you need to work with what you have. Ultimately, fitting adequate counterplay to these two is a hell of a lot easier than doing the same for Ultra Necrozma so it is a viable, yet uncommon option. Additionally, none of these mons actually switch into Ultra Necrozma safely. Sure it will probably Dragon Dance, but none are particularly keen to take even an unboosted Photon Geyser. Additionally, all of these mons are reliant on tera to actually check Ultra Necrozma or they just get blown up. This is a very different dynamic compared to Zacian-C which at least usually has to use tera itself. Speaking of, Zacian-C also deletes every mon mentioned so far.

Ubers has more stringent standards for what constitutes an unhealthy presence as the power level inherently results in a level of centralization that would be deemed unacceptable in other tiers. If one were to solely watch replays the notion that Ultra Necrozma would even be candidate for tiering is laughable. However, this is only due to the harsh restrictions it imposes in the teambuilder. The severity of these restrictions rises to a degree that tiering action should be considered.

If Ultra Necrozma were to be banned, the primary reason would be its 50/50 mind game dynamic with Necrozma-DM. While Smogon treats Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma as separate Pokémon, in a non-open sheet environment, it is nearly impossible for opponents to consider them separately.


Ultra Necrozma’s primary defensive checks() can easily be lured and eliminated by Necrozma-DM. For instance:

• +1 252+ Atk Necrozma-DM Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 429-505 (96.8 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO.
• +1 252+ Atk Necrozma-DM Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Yveltal: 595-702 (130.7 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

A Pokémon that forces every team to run either a Dark-type Pokémon or a Tera Dark option yet can bypass its checks so easily is inherently problematic. While Ultra Necrozma may not be the single most overpowered Pokémon in the current metagame, compared to other suspects, there is little justification to oppose its ban.

 

[bumboclaat]

Ultra Necrozma’s primary defensive checks() can easily be lured and eliminated by Necrozma-DM. For instance:

• +1 252+ Atk Necrozma-DM Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 429-505 (96.8 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO.
• +1 252+ Atk Necrozma-DM Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Yveltal: 595-702 (130.7 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

This is one of the main reasons to run it and the only reason Necrozma-DM maintains a spot in the A ranks (probably C rank otherwise imo). Although it is technically a 'lure' set it is a pretty mediocre lure and functions well because Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM is a great, if underrated wallbreaker. The reason I say it is a pretty mediocre lure is that it is very hard to maintain the illusion that it is Ultra Necrozma. If the team is HO it is probably Ultra Necrozma. If it comes out early it is probably Stealth Rock Ultra Necrozma. Otherwise it is likely Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM. Defensive Necrozma-DM is barely viable as it loses to most stuff it is supposed to check while losing to nearly everything else.

A Pokémon that forces every team to run either a Dark-type Pokémon or a Tera Dark option yet can bypass its checks so easily is inherently problematic. While Ultra Necrozma may not be the single most overpowered Pokémon in the current metagame, compared to other suspects, there is little justification to oppose its ban.

Even if I am 100% on the ban train at the moment and we had a suspect test tomorrow I'm still not quite convinced Ultra Necrozma would be banned. Ultimately, regardless of whether it should or not, Ubers does have a higher tolerance for unhealthy elements and this mentality is pervasive amongst voters. For example, Xerneas, which is leagues more broken than Ultra Necrozma only passed the ban threshold by a couple of votes. Xerneas also has had a decade of people wanting it banned from past Ubers metagames for mostly the same reasons it was banned here.

It gets a lot harder to convince people that something should be banned when the unhealthy elements are at their peak in the builder or a combination of builder issues combined with little use such as Shadow Tag. You'll also have a non insignificant percentage of voters who will refuse to ban anything which in conjunction with a higher 66% threshold makes banning much of anything an uncertainty regardless of how obvious it is. The whole this is Ubers and something really needs to be broken also makes this difficult as it results in a higher threshold for something to be considered suspect worthy to begin with. This is a big reason why there has not been a Zacian-C suspect yet as the playerbase has not indicated that even if there are qualms with Zacian-C, they don't rise to a degree that tiering action is warranted. This is definitely an Ubers thing as I think it is quite likely that Pokémon such as Marshadow or maybe even Primal Kyogre would have received suspects without this mentality.

Ultimately, I do get why someone can look at the state of Ultra Necrozma counterplay and deem it sufficient. Arceus-Dark, Yveltal, and Marshadow are absolute titans of the metagame and would likely be so regardless of whether Ultra Necrozma is a part of it. I disagree obviously, but saying these three + the few options for soft checking Ultra Necrozma is sufficient is a somewhat reasonable take. Someone could also say that the real issue is Zacian-C not Ultra Necrozma given how strong Zacian-C is against nearly all of Ultra Necrozma's counterplay.

 

[LemonLime78]

Could stakataka be usable? This sounds insane, but hear me out.

Stakataka

@ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 15 Def / 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Trick Room

The main draw of stakataka is its gyro ball, which can often hit 150 BP due to how obscenely slow staka is. This gyro ball hits a lot of pokemon, including offensive Arceus forms, zacian-c, and eternatus extremely hard, and can ko most neutral hits. Eq and sedge hit everything else for at least neutral damage, and can usually either ohko or majorly chip other relevant mons. I usually use tera flying to best get off the truck room, but tera steel or ground might be usable to further boost its damage output.

Admittedly, Stakataka very much struggles against physically bulky mons like PGroudon and NDM. Against these targets, it's generally best to either chip them down to bring in stakataka later, or use stakataka to chunk them and make them easier for a teammate to pick off.

Stakataka mainly serves the role of either wallbreaker or cleanup. It pairs well with chip damage like hazards or toxic that can wear down bulkier mons to make snowballing easier. It definitely has to be built around, but I think it has at least some merits. Overall, it seems best into offensive teams, as those tend to be faster for more gyro ball damage, less bulky and suffer more from trick room.

Calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 313-370 (96.3 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 383-452 (112.3 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 368-434 (87.4 - 103%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 368-434 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 191-226 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Sami]

Could stakataka be usable? This sounds insane, but hear me out.

Stakataka

@ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 15 Def / 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Trick Room

The main draw of stakataka is its gyro ball, which can often hit 150 BP due to how obscenely slow staka is. This gyro ball hits a lot of pokemon, including offensive Arceus forms, zacian-c, and eternatus extremely hard, and can ko most neutral hits. Eq and sedge hit everything else for at least neutral damage, and can usually either ohko or majorly chip other relevant mons. I usually use tera flying to best get off the truck room, but tera steel or ground might be usable to further boost its damage output.

Admittedly, Stakataka very much struggles against physically bulky mons like PGroudon and NDM. Against these targets, it's generally best to either chip them down to bring in stakataka later, or use stakataka to chunk them and make them easier for a teammate to pick off.

Stakataka mainly serves the role of either wallbreaker or cleanup. It pairs well with chip damage like hazards or toxic that can wear down bulkier mons to make snowballing easier. It definitely has to be built around, but I think it has at least some merits. Overall, it seems best into offensive teams, as those tend to be faster for more gyro ball damage, less bulky and suffer more from trick room.

Calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 313-370 (96.3 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 383-452 (112.3 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 368-434 (87.4 - 103%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 368-434 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 191-226 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Stakataka is completely outclassed by Melmetal outside of a potential Offensive Trick Room set and even then its still outclassed by Necrozma-DM in that regard.

 

[LemonLime78]

Stakataka is completely outclassed by Melmetal outside of a potential Offensive Trick Room set and even then its still outclassed by Necrozma-DM in that regard.

I'd argue that stakataka still has some merits over those two, namely beast boost and the ability to ohko Ho-oh right off the bat. Also, max power gyro ball hits harder than ndm's sunsteel strike (though admittedly not double iron bash). Not saying that Stakataka is strictly better than those two, just that it has some merits to it.

 

[bumboclaat]

Could stakataka be usable? This sounds insane, but hear me out.

Stakataka

@ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 15 Def / 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Trick Room

The main draw of stakataka is its gyro ball, which can often hit 150 BP due to how obscenely slow staka is. This gyro ball hits a lot of pokemon, including offensive Arceus forms, zacian-c, and eternatus extremely hard, and can ko most neutral hits. Eq and sedge hit everything else for at least neutral damage, and can usually either ohko or majorly chip other relevant mons. I usually use tera flying to best get off the truck room, but tera steel or ground might be usable to further boost its damage output.

Admittedly, Stakataka very much struggles against physically bulky mons like PGroudon and NDM. Against these targets, it's generally best to either chip them down to bring in stakataka later, or use stakataka to chunk them and make them easier for a teammate to pick off.

Stakataka mainly serves the role of either wallbreaker or cleanup. It pairs well with chip damage like hazards or toxic that can wear down bulkier mons to make snowballing easier. It definitely has to be built around, but I think it has at least some merits. Overall, it seems best into offensive teams, as those tend to be faster for more gyro ball damage, less bulky and suffer more from trick room.

Calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 313-370 (96.3 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 383-452 (112.3 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 368-434 (87.4 - 103%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 368-434 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 191-226 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'd argue that stakataka still has some merits over those two, namely beast boost and the ability to ohko Ho-oh right off the bat. Also, max power gyro ball hits harder than ndm's sunsteel strike (though admittedly not double iron bash). Not saying that Stakataka is strictly better than those two, just that it has some merits to it.

It is great to experiment with new Pokémon, but as Sami said Stakataka outclassed by Melmetal. Trick Room as an archetype is fringe viable and is ranked begrudingly as an acknowledgment that it is indeed viable. The viability rankings were updated last night so they are worth checking out. Trick Room's niche as an archetype stems from its ability to autowin against most hyper offense teams. The issue, and why it is regarded so poorly (Hatterene's ranking is the de facto Trick Room ranking) is that it auto loses against nearly everything else. It appears to be significantly better than it is on the ladder due to hyper offense being vastly overrepresented and the overall quality being poor. Even within high ladder the quality leaves much to be desired despite many high ladder players being good.

Trick Room is a matchup fish where the outcome in most games is decided at team preview. Other archetypes suffer from this such as stall and psyspam, but they have a better matchup spread than Trick Room does. Trick Room ultimately suffers from its linearity in both the teambuilder and in battle. Standard Trick Room currently has little room for experimentation as it is already constrained. It wants three setters and three abusers. One setter will always be Hatterene and the second is usually Arceus. The third is team dependent with Lunala being the third best option as it helps with some of the Pokémon Trick Room has issues with such as Life Orb Yveltal while Cresselia is used if you are using Melmetal as Double Iron Bash can struggle with PP issues.

This leaves room for three abusers, which is usually both Primals and one of Calyrex-I or Melmetal. Calyrex-I is considered better as it is signifcantly better breaker against balance teams due to the power, ability to snowball with its ability, and relying on an Ice-type move as opposed to Steel. Melmetal is better against hyper offense, but given how much Trick Room already easily beats said teams, this is less valuable. As Steel is a poor offensive type, Melmetal is more reliant on flinches. It does get them 51% of the time, but its reliance on them against Pokémon such as Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh is an issue. It is usually two Primals + one of Calyrex-I or Melmetal due to both relying heavily on Tera.

For Stakataka to have a claim to a niche on Trick Room it needs to be able to provide something that Calyrex-I or Melmetal cannot. This most likely way it is going to be able to do is bypassing the Pokémon which give Trick Room trouble in a way that Calyrex-I cannot. I'm struggling to see how it is able to accomplish this and these calcs don't indicate that I'm missing something. If anything it shows, as Sami mentioned, that Stakataka is directly outclassed by Melmetal. Unlike Stakataka, Melmetal cleanly OHKOes Zacian-C, Eternatus, and Yveltal with Tera Steel Double Iron Bash while also 2HKOing Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM. The main difference is that Melmetal requires Stealth Rock to 2HKO defensive Primal Groudon, but slotting Stealth Rock on Arceus is better than using Stakataka. This also ignores Calyrex-I which reaches essentially all the same thresholds and has an easier time snowballing due to Glacial Lance.

The biggest issue for Stakataka faces is that it fails to alleviate Trick Rooms biggest issue in Tera Water Zygarde. Melmetal at least kind of annoys it because Zygarde cannot switch in directly as it is OHKOed and Tera Water leaves it just just out of transformation range. Dealing with Ho-Oh is nice, but Trick Room doesn't really have problems with Ho-Oh as everything is more or less capable of muscling through it fairly easily. At best its role tends to be wasting a PP on something or preventing Trick Room from going up via Whirlwind if it is running it. Trick Room is already a fringe viable playstyle that is already outclassed by Calyrex-I or Necrozma-DM setting it themselves to clean up against offensive teams and these sets are already niche. I don't Stakataka is viable and it would take a fair amount of evidence to convince me otherwise. It certainly will get some wins on the ladder because anything can. If you want to use it and have fun using it that is great, but Stakataka should not be considered for a serious team. This isn't because Stakataka is unable to do things, but because it is outclassed by other options.

 

[kanato]

After Xerneas was banned, Yveltal has undoubtedly become the dictator of the tier.
Except for Fezandipiti, it is virtually impossible to counter Yveltal offensively or defensively with just a single Pokémon. (In fact, even with two or more, stopping Yveltal is nearly impossible.)

Moreover, since Fezandipiti is only viable in balance teams, Yveltal is, at least from my perspective, the top candidate for a ban.

Yveltal’s strengths can be broadly categorized into three aspects:

1. "Infinite" Pokémon
2. Diversity of Forms (Forma’s Diversity)
3. An Overwhelming Ability to Dominate Slow Pokémon

"Infinite" Pokémon (I'm not entirely sure if ChatGPT can fully convey the nuance of "Infinite Pokémon," haha.)
This is Yveltal’s most distinctive trait.

Thanks to the overwhelming power of Oblivion Wing, Yveltal can sustain itself in battle indefinitely, even as a Life Orb user, without the need for any recovery moves. Depending on the player's skill, Yveltal is one of the few Pokémon that can continuously fight from the early game to the very end, making it one of the most difficult Pokémon to counter.


Diversity of Forms
Yveltal can be considered, perhaps with some exaggeration, as a Pokémon with Arceus-level versatility in the tier.

Even among its primary sets, Heavy-Duty Boots Defogger, Life Orb Special Attacker, and Choice Scarf variant all serve vastly different roles, making it nearly impossible for opponents to distinguish between them at a glance.
(If Yveltal is running Heavy-Duty Boots, the opponent can identify it once Stealth Rock does no damage, but if it isn’t, they are forced into a difficult Life Orb vs. Choice Scarf mind game.)


Even within the Life Orb Special Attacker archetype, there are numerous variations.
First, Yveltal’s Terastallization options alone include Dark, Flying, Fire, Ghost, and Poison, offering a wide array of offensive and defensive applications.

Moreover, its move diversity is among the highest in the tier. While Dark Pulse and Oblivion Wing are nearly always included,

Yveltal can be customized with moves like Heat Wave, Taunt, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Toxic, Roost, Defog, Foul Play, and Dual Wingbeat to suit various needs. Each of these moves has the potential to flip matchups against specific checks, making Yveltal a true nightmare to deal with for any opponent.


Overwhelming Strength Against Slow Pokémon
Yveltal's main move, Dark Pulse, is brutally effective against slower Pokémon. Dark Pulse is a powerful RNG-based move that allows Yveltal to forcefully break through Pokémon it normally shouldn't be able to defeat, such as Primal Kyogre. Additionally, Pokémon like Ho-Oh can be easily taken down with just a single flinch.

Most Hyper Offense lead Pokémon, except for Deoxys, are slower than Yveltal. This means Yveltal can effortlessly exploit a 20% flinch chance to steal games against Hyper Offense teams with zero risk.



Mention of Zygarde
The primary reason Zygarde appears overwhelmingly strong is due to the meta distortion caused by Yveltal. A key example of this is how the metagame has adapted to Yveltal—Arceus has shifted away from bulk and instead invested in speed, which has indirectly made Zygarde even more threatening.

Why Should Yveltal Be Banned Instead of Zygarde?
"If Zygarde gets banned, will the meta be able to handle Yveltal?" → Absolutely not.
"If Yveltal gets banned, will the meta be able to handle Zygarde?" → Most likely, yes.

The Only Argument Against Banning Yveltal
The only real argument against banning Yveltal is that it would push too many Pokémon into the AG tier.

If Yveltal gets banned, Ultra Necrozma will almost certainly be quickbanned the same day.
If both Yveltal and Ultra Necrozma are banned, AG will now contain 7 Pokémon.
(and there is no guarantee that additional bans won’t follow)
(Shedinja and Gengar are Special Cases Banned Due to NatDex Mechanics, So They Don't Count.)

I'm in favor of banning both Yveltal and Ultra Necrozma, but having more than seven Pokémon in AG does seem a bit ridiculous.

 

[bumboclaat]

(I'm not entirely sure if ChatGPT can fully convey the nuance of "Infinite Pokémon," haha.

I am fairly sure ChatGPT and other similar programs are not allowed to be used on Smogon. It doesn't come across as though you've used ChatGPT for the entire post (I'm hoping anyways). I'd advise to refrain from using it.

I'm glad was Yveltal brought up on the forums. There have been some rumblings about Yvletal on discord and privately, but the forum is the best place for a topic like this. Even if the discord is great (people should join if they have not) the forums are not lost to time, more public, and more condusive to discussing a topic like this.

After Xerneas was banned, Yveltal has undoubtedly become the dictator of the tier.
Except for Fezandipiti, it is virtually impossible to counter Yveltal offensively or defensively with just a single Pokémon. (In fact, even with two or more, stopping Yveltal is nearly impossible.)

Moreover, since Fezandipiti is only viable in balance teams, Yveltal is, at least from my perspective, the top candidate for a ban.

I'd largely agree that this is true, but conditionally. The main argument for a Yveltal ban imo is that it is too good at enabling hyper offense structures, specifically Sticky Web teams. Yveltal is great on most hyper offense archetypes, but the presence Sticky Web heavily limits both its offensive and defensive counterplay. Fezandipiti absolutely deletes it, but I'd add Heavy-Duty Boots Eternatus to that list as it can Toxic Yveltal and will win the trade. It likely won't be doing much after, but this is the case against hyper offense in general where it has limited utility beyond setting Toxic Spikes and checking Yveltal and Primal Kyogre. I certainly agree that Yveltal is a caandidate for a ban, but is not the top candidate.

Without Sticky Web support Life Orb Yveltal has a reasonable amount of defensive and offensive counterplay imo. It is still be one of the most constricting Pokémon in the teambuilder and in times in battle, but not to an unreasonable degree. My primary point of contention is how Sticky Webs enables Yveltal to invalidate its best forme of defensive counterplay in Calm Mind Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Fairy. Tera certainly plays a role in this as Tera Fire will completely shut down any Arceus-Fairy set while Arceus-Dark obviously can't muscle through regardless due to being Taunted. This does effect Yveltal's offensive counterplay, but not nearly to the same degree as it often depends on Yveltal's moveset. A lot of its offensive counterplay can still beat it, but will take damage in doing so they otherwise wouldn't.

Thanks to the overwhelming power of Oblivion Wing, Yveltal can sustain itself in battle indefinitely, even as a Life Orb user, without the need for any recovery moves. Depending on the player's skill, Yveltal is one of the few Pokémon that can continuously fight from the early game to the very end, making it one of the most difficult Pokémon to counter.

There is a possibility this was true shortly after the Xerneas ban, but the metagame has developed in a way where this is quite difficult to do. The games where this can happen are going to be non-HO games where the more standard Yveltal checks are able to function properly. As this isn't a HO game, it is quite reasonable to get Stealth Rock up which heavily limits LO Yveltal from doing this as it still loses HP using Oblivion Wing against standard Arceus formes (248 HP / 52 or 104 SpD) which will be the switch-in on most teams. Yveltal itself is the primary reason for the shift to these spreads, but it also provides an opening for Calm Mind Arceus formes to start setting up itself as they can use Yveltal for setup fodder. Imo LO Yveltal is weaker to Stealth Rock than any individual Pokémon and in these longer games that becomes a significant limiting factor. LO Yveltal is certainly one of the most limiting Pokémon in the tier, but getting this type of milage out of it is likely a result of skill which is a good thing. Imo the availability of decent counterplay is sufficient to where I just have to say it is likely a teambuilding issue. Most other top tier Pokémon achieve similar results when they are not respected in the teambuilder. Everyone has their own personal line for when something is too constricting, but it isn't as though Magearna is seeing use.

Diversity of Forms
Yveltal can be considered, perhaps with some exaggeration, as a Pokémon with Arceus-level versatility in the tier.

Even among its primary sets, Heavy-Duty Boots Defogger, Life Orb Special Attacker, and Choice Scarf variant all serve vastly different roles, making it nearly impossible for opponents to distinguish between them at a glance.
(If Yveltal is running Heavy-Duty Boots, the opponent can identify it once Stealth Rock does no damage, but if it isn’t, they are forced into a difficult Life Orb vs. Choice Scarf mind game.)

I really disagree with most of this. Most of the time it is going to be pretty easy to decipher at team preview. If it is HO it is obviously going to LO Yveltal. Otherwise you can make a pretty decent educated guess based on the team composition. Offensive team that otherwise doesn't have hazard removal? Probably Choice Scarf. Most stuff that can handle the defensive set can also handle the Choice Scarf set. If you are using HO this obviously not easy, but that is inherent to HO. Choice Scarf is good largely because of its matchup into HO while providing entry hazard removal once, maybe twice. If you need the exact role compression Choice Scarf Yveltal provides it is fantastic because it is incredibly consistent in performing these roles. However, if a team doesn't need these exact roles in one slot, and most don't, it is incredibly mediocre. It also has to choose between Tera Dark to secure the OHKO on +3 Zacian-C or Tera Steel for Ekiller.

Yeah if you are playing HO, guessing wrong is an issue, but this something inherent to HO anyways. That offensive power comes at a price and it doesn't make a difference if it is Choice Scarf Yveltal. I don't have an issue with this as there are always going to be Pokémon or sets that give some archetypes trouble. Choice Scarf Yveltal might be great against HO, but the price of admission is needing to give up tera and having a dead slot against most other archetypes. That is a fine trade imo. Lastly, I'm also unsure why this is so different from other Pokémon where a wrong assumption can be just as if not more costly such as Primal Groudon or Zacian-C.

Even within the Life Orb Special Attacker archetype, there are numerous variations.
First, Yveltal’s Terastallization options alone include Dark, Flying, Fire, Ghost, and Poison, offering a wide array of offensive and defensive applications.

I can't say I've ever seen or considered Tera Ghost on Life Orb Yveltal so would you mind elaborating on exactly what it is supposed to do? I'm guessing it is for Ekiller? If so that seems way too situational to be generally useful. I like Tera Poison myself for the extra security against fat and stall, but it isn't something I'd say is common on Life Orb Yveltal nor am I sure how many other people like it. The rest are fair, but Tera Fire is HO exclusive and should be somewhat expected. Tera Flying is nice to punish some more passive methods of dealing with Yveltal such as support Arceus-Fairy and defensive Ho-Oh, but losing the defensive profile is pretty rough for a relatively minimal gain. Personally I do not like Tera Dark and outside of needing it to get Sucker Punch KOs on Marshadow and Ultra Necrozma I find it is often a symptom of a flawed team. Yveltal already hits hard enough that raw bulk alone does not suffice. I view Tera Dark largely as a 'win more' option rather than something that is genuinely good. Also saying Yveltal can run all these different tera types without elaborating on how they make it banworthy isn't going to change the mind of someone that doesn't view Yveltal as banworthy to begin with. Furthermore, this doesn't really change the matchup with Yveltal's most common method of defensive counterplay in Taunt Calm Mind Arceus formes.

Moreover, its move diversity is among the highest in the tier. While Dark Pulse and Oblivion Wing are nearly always included,

Yveltal can be customized with moves like Heat Wave, Taunt, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Toxic, Roost, Defog, Foul Play, and Dual Wingbeat to suit various needs. Each of these moves has the potential to flip matchups against specific checks, making Yveltal a true nightmare to deal with for any opponent.

This comes across as pretty disingenuous when Yveltal is pretty strapped for moveslots as it is. Defensive Yveltal has Taunt, Roost, and Foul Play locked in already and really wants both Toxic and U-turn while also wanting Defog and Sucker Punch on occasion. This applies to LO Yveltal as well where its moves are even more locked in as between Taunt, its STABs, and the physical Dark-type move of choice. Heat Wave is definitely viable, but also requires a commitment of Tera Fire with minimal use outside of Zacian-C and the rare Ferrothorn. Given this cost and how detrimental it is to Yveltal's other matchups this is fine imo. Lure sets have and will always exist. I'm not sure why Dual Wingbeat was mentioned though. It really makes me question how much of this is AI generated.

Overwhelming Strength Against Slow Pokémon
Yveltal's main move, Dark Pulse, is brutally effective against slower Pokémon. Dark Pulse is a powerful RNG-based move that allows Yveltal to forcefully break through Pokémon it normally shouldn't be able to defeat, such as Primal Kyogre. Additionally, Pokémon like Ho-Oh can be easily taken down with just a single flinch.

Most Hyper Offense lead Pokémon, except for Deoxys, are slower than Yveltal. This means Yveltal can effortlessly exploit a 20% flinch chance to steal games against Hyper Offense teams with zero risk.

Yeah Dark Pulse flinches suck and definitely happen, but so does missing any of the one million not 100% accurate moves. One of the great things about Primal Kyogre is the ability to trade with Life Orb Yveltal regardless of whether or not Sticky Webs are up, but if it is your go to method of dealing with it this is a team issue. The same can be said of offensive Ho-Oh. Sure these Pokémon can help against Yveltal, but they should not be the primary response. If they are this is an indication of a flawed team.

The bit about HO leads is another thing that makes me question how much of this you actually wrote v AI. What team is expecting Life Orb Yveltal to deal with an HO Lead? Grimmsnarl sure, but the rest? This makes me frustrated that I've taken a decent amount of time out of my day to respond to this. How oppressive Yveltal can be to the defensive metagame both in the builder and in game is the main reason it would even be considered for tiering action to begin with. Then the reasoning doesn't even go into why.

Mention of Zygarde
The primary reason Zygarde appears overwhelmingly strong is due to the meta distortion caused by Yveltal. A key example of this is how the metagame has adapted to Yveltal—Arceus has shifted away from bulk and instead invested in speed, which has indirectly made Zygarde even more threatening.

Yveltal definitely is a reason for this. The Bold Arceus formes of previous metagames were slightly better against Dragon Dance Zygarde as they were 2HKOed instead of 3HKOed. If Yveltal were to be banned tomorrow I highly doubt we would see an immediate shift back to Bold Arceus formes. The special bulk is still needed to take on offensive Eternatus sets and Calm Mind Arceus formes are amongst the most reliable counterplay while also being splashable. This makes zero difference for Coil sets. Frankly I'm not sure if it really makes a difference against Zygarde. If anything, Zygarde is likely even better in a metagame without Yveltal imo.

Why Should Yveltal Be Banned Instead of Zygarde?
"If Zygarde gets banned, will the meta be able to handle Yveltal?" → Absolutely not.
"If Yveltal gets banned, will the meta be able to handle Zygarde?" → Most likely, yes.

How exactly is Zygarde keeping Yveltal in check? If anything it is the other way around. Sure Zygarde can Tera Fairy, but between Taunt and Oblivion Wing it just loses. Dragon Dance Zygarde can't setup on Yveltal due to Taunt.

The Only Argument Against Banning Yveltal
The only real argument against banning Yveltal is that it would push too many Pokémon into the AG tier.

If Yveltal gets banned, Ultra Necrozma will almost certainly be quickbanned the same day.
If both Yveltal and Ultra Necrozma are banned, AG will now contain 7 Pokémon.
(and there is no guarantee that additional bans won’t follow)
(Shedinja and Gengar are Special Cases Banned Due to NatDex Mechanics, So They Don't Count.)

There are lots of legitimate arguments against banning Yveltal, but having x number of Pokémon is not one of them. If a Pokémon is too strong for Ubers send it to AG. The days of Ubers being a banlist rather than a tier are long gone.

---

I do not think the tier is in a bad place and would remain playable and competitive if no tiering action happened for the rest of the generation. However, I do think NDUbers would benefit from tiering action. My ideal tiering path would be as follows:

1. Suspect and ban Ultra Necrozma. The constraints it places in the builder is higher than any other Pokémon in the tier including Yveltal. It may not be able to get past its counterplay, but it is so ridiculous it more or less forces rock solid counterplay on nearly every team. If teams no longer have to account for Ultra Necrozma I believe it is likely that other Pokémon that people have issues with such as Yveltal, Zacian-C, and Zygarde will be considerably easier to manage. Unlike other Pokémon people have issues with, Ultra Necrozma does not bring many if any benefits to the tier.

2. See how things shake up and then suspect Zacian-C. I'm fine with a Zacian-C suspect, but am on the fence about whether it should be banned.

3. Only after both of these consider a Yveltal and/or Zygarde suspect. I would not vote to ban either of these currently and am unlikely to vote to ban either, but I can see my mind changing on Yveltal. The issue with Yveltal imo is specifically with Sticky Webs and tbh Smeargle plays a pretty big role in this as well.

I'd happily ban Shadow Tag and Last Respects, but the support is not there currently to seriously entertain either. We are well past the stage of the metagame where quick banning either of these is an option. 66% is a lot and I struggle to see either breaching it.