small disagree on the scarf yveltal criticism, as i find it quite useful even into bulkier matchups. it can often beat their speed control as most use zacian speed tiers or slower, which it beats, can fit toxic in its kit often letting it still have field presence when it already used foul play or knock off, with the ladder being very good into aforementioned teams. it can be weaker to rocks but it can be maneuvered around. its not great but still good and certainly not dead weight. plus the less overt things like being a good user of U turn, a fairly rare trait in the tier, as well as still helping vs a lot of sweepers even if it cannot fully SOLO them. plus i dont think it is even good at hazard control and i pretty much never run it with defog. i perfer the following:The Ossification of our Metagame
I’d like to preface this by stating that the views in this post are mine alone and should not be perceived as speaking for the council. I’m not speaking as a council member, but as a player frustrated with the state of the metagame.
It has been mentioned publicly that there is a survey tentatively planned after the Open so now is as good a time as any for this post. Anyone who has had the misfortune to hear me yap about National Dex Ubers knows I’m fairly frustrated with the state of the metagame. If the survey was to drop today I’d probably give it a 3 in enjoyment and a 7-8 in competitiveness. I may have some qualms about the state of the metagame, but it is undoubtedly competitive. Assuming both players bring good teams and there is minimal hax involved the person who plays better is going to win most of the time.
The issue is making said ‘good team’. I’d define a good team as one that has at least a playable matchup into most of the metagame. If it is deleted by some off-meta threat that is ok, so long as it is playable into standard stuff. It doesn’t have to be an amazing matchup, no team is going to have an amazing matchup against everything. However, if it is playable at least you’re able to rely on your own skill to navigate a path to victory. Our options for doing so are severely limited - even by Ubers standards.
As it stands, the current metagame is eerily reminiscent of the latter stages of the Xerneas metagame. Notably, this is not a matchup fishy metagame which it was during Xerneas’s reign. That was guess the Xerneas / Zacian-C set on top of I hope this hyper offense team isn’t loading one of the myriad of things that goob me because dealing with those two and their permutations required an immense amount of resources. In contrast, our current metagame is not matchup fishy and I doubt it ever would be.
I find our current metagame unenjoyable for a myriad of reasons, but matchup fishing isn’t one. The primary culprits are Sticky Web and Ultra Necrozma. I’ll get into the details below as the reasons are multifaceted and these elements do not exist in isolation. In an ideal world, both of these elements will be banned at some point. That being said, banning anything in Ubers is difficult as even Xerneas was only two votes away from staying in the tier. I’m hoping that this post results in some people reevaluating whether these elements are worth keeping around. Consequently, I’m writing this now as opposed to after the survey drops.
Where is the line?
Sticky Web is an intrinsically powerful entry hazard due to its disruption of Speed tiers. It is considered cheese in most metagames due to lacking consistency. The reasons why may vary depending on the tier, but it often stems from issues with the setter or the team’s ability to maintain Webs. When such a game warping entry hazard gains a certain level of consistency it negatively affects the health of the metagame. In contrast, Trick Room is considered cheese in the same vein as Webs in other tiers as it is a highly inconsistent matchup fish that auto-wins against hyper offense whilst losing to nearly everything else. If Trick Room was good, it would also face scrutiny - for similar reasons.
During our recent VR slate I made a comment saying that Trick Room arguably deserves to rise due to how common Sticky Web is. Trick Room is a terrible fish, but it does absolutely delete Sticky Web, giving it a larger percentage of games it wins in absolute terms. Similarly, Ribombee rose despite its niche only really being a Sticky Web setter that beats Smeargle. It technically does a few other things, but that is its raison d'être. It begs the question: at what point is an archetype as game warping as Sticky Web too powerful?
This also ignores the additional metagame impacts that Sticky Web has had - both direct and indirect. I’ll get to those later. What complicates things is that one can reasonably argue that the issue lies in either individual Pokémon or the strength the move itself. The best place to start is by looking at the ‘standard’ Sticky Web composition and the various countermeasures that different playstyles can employ.
What does a modern Sticky Web team look like?Sticky Web is not so centralized that there is an ‘undisputed best team.’ That being said, any Sticky Web team is going to have some overlap due to ‘mandatory’ elements in the setter and Yveltal. The main difference between a modern Sticky Web structure and an old one is the inclusion of Chi-Yu over Ultra Necrozma. Chi-Yu is what has allowed Sticky Web to become a consistent archetype. It is nearly unwallable with Sticky Web up and helps maintain them with its fast Taunt. Furthermore, it provides counterplay into Sticky Web’s biggest historical issue: stall and Choice Scarf Yveltal. The fish may not be mandatory, but it is close and probably should be on most Sticky Web structures. As shown above, there is really only one ‘flex’ slot on Sticky Web, but Life Orb Yveltal is oppressive and consistent enough that Sticky Web has the freedom to more or less run anything and still be solid against most of the metagame.
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Any hyper offense archetype relies on a dedicated lead to set their entry hazard of choice and Sticky Web has three options: Ribombee, Shuckle, and Smeargle. Smeargle is far and away the best setter, but each is viable and bring their own benefits. Let’s look at all of them and what they bring to the table.
Ribombee is the most ‘recent’ development for Sticky Webs structures. It is little more than an anti-webs webs lead as it completely shuts down Smeargle due to Shield Dust. Although Shuckle can Encore, it cannot setup Sticky Web in front of Ribombee. Despite this, Sticky Web as an archetype is powerful enough to catapult it to C+ (aka you don’t need to spend 30 minutes justifying why you’re bringing this Pokémon to your manager). Ribombee always runs Sticky Web + Imprison, but has some flexibility in the last two slots. Usually this will be Stun Spore + Moonblast to annoy Ho-Oh and break the Focus Sashes of other hyper offense leads. Moonblast notably lets Ribombee set Sticky Web against Deoxys-S, but it has a pretty deep utility movepool. For example, Skill Swap is the most practical to set Sticky Web against Mega Diancie, something neither other setter can do. It has other options such as Aromatherapy and Defog, but Skill Swap is the only alternate move that has seen tournament use so far. Choice Scarf is a solid set in SV Ubers, but it isn’t here and the results showed. It even loaded into Sticky Web most of the time and failed to prevent Sticky Webs from being set – the whole point of using it...
Shuckle is an honest Sticky Web setter that most often runs Sticky Web, Stealth Rock, Final Gambit, and Encore. Some other moves such as Knock Off and Toxic saw some use in earlier metagames but are not worth fitting. Shuckle’s main allure over Smeargle is the ability to safely use Stealth Rock and its bulk enables it to potentially set Sticky Web again mid-game should it be removed, but this can be inconsistent. Red Card has seen sporadic use, but is greedy and predicated on the opponent assuming that it is running Mental Herb, which they should. Shuckle notably has a far worse matchup against opposing hyper offense leads than Ribombee and Smeargle and its ability to set another Sticky Web is questionable. This is reflected in the VR as Shuckle and Smeargle used to ranked similarly, but over time Smeargle has proven to be far and away the best Sticky Web setter. I’ve spent a lot of time criticising Shuckle over the past year, but that isn’t because it is bad. In a vacuum, Shuckle is good, but is outclassed and that is a distinction worth making.
The use and optimization of Smeargle is a significant driver of Sticky Web’s strength as an archetype. This is in large part because of how limited the options are to punish Smeargle’s ‘standard’ set of Sticky Web, Nuzzle, Perish Song, and Mortal Spin. I say ‘standard’ because a Smeargle user is rarely punished for deviating from this set and there is no reasonable way to discern this at team preview as it is entirely up to the Smeargle user if they want to be more adventurous by incorporating Spore, Ceaseless Edge, or Rapid Spin. The pool of Pokémon that consistently punish Smeargle is limited to Dragon Dance Zygarde and Mega Diancie. If you’re feeling generous you could maybe include Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground, but that is stretching it. Ferrothorn gets an honourable mention.
It is the secondary effects of these moves. Normally Taunt would shut down a Pokémon like Smeargle, but it isn’t worthwhile for our Taunt users to even attempt to do so as they’ll be crippled while Smeargle’s Focus Sash will remain intact and its Speed ensures it will find an opportunity later to set Sticky Webs up. While some Pokémon such as Calyrex-I and Mewtwo get Taunt, they do not run it. Our Taunt users are Arceus formes and Yveltal – neither of which are willing to take a Nuzzle. If the Smeargle user is feeling particularly brazen they can just hope for a Speed boost from Moody or lucky Paralysis and they won’t even have to wait to set Sticky Web. Furthermore, these Pokémon will be unable to fulfil necessary roles later in the game.
So what about Ground-types since they’re immune to Nuzzle? Well we have two common Ground-types: Primal Groudon and Zygarde. Primal Groudon can dispatch Smeargle, but like everything else it really does not want to as taking a Mortal Spin will leave it unable to check Primal Kyogre or Zacian-C later in the game. Zygarde doesn’t love taking Mortal Spin, but it certainly cares about Spore which is very real and presents an issue to most defensive Pokémon. Zygarde may not have an explicit role in the Sticky Web matchup, but it is frequently able to emergency check something.
Consequently, for most balance and bulky offense teams, there are not really many reasonable options to handle Smeargle. The best available is Ferrothorn which is uncommon as none of Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground, Mega Diancie, or Dragon Dance Zygarde really fit on these archetypes. Smeargle is a headache for offense and hyper offense as well due to its set variety. While Mortal Spin is better, Rapid Spin has been picking up a bit of recently as most hyper offense leads opt for Tera Steel to block Mortal Spin. This dynamic adds a ton of risk and variance to the hyper offense mirror and can easily result in the game being functionally over at lead. This is also without mentioning Moody which gives Smeargle somewhat reasonable odds to set Sticky Web even when it shouldn’t. I’m glad people don’t run Moody for some reason, but they really should as the downsides are minimal.
Smeargle Counterplay
Counter:1
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Solid Checks:3
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Conditional8:9
1 Substitute + 3A if not used on hyper offense
2 Dragon Dance.
3 70% of the time.
4 Rocky Helmet sets only.
5 If Coil + Dragon Tail, assuming no Spore.
6 If Dragon Dance + Taunt.
7 Assuming Smeargle doesn't Tera Steel.
8 Alomomola, Fezandipiti, and Landorus-T can all be Spored.
9Requires Scale Shot which can miss and a 92.6% chance to OHKO with two hits. So it works 83.4% of the time.
It is quite possible I’ve missed something, but even so, this list is arguably deceptive due to overstating various Smeargle matchups. For example, Dragon Dance Zygarde doesn’t fall under the traditional definition of a counter, but does phase Yveltal before succumbing to Perish Song. This gives an opportunity to remove Sticky Web and lord knows Zygarde isn’t doing much else given that almost everything else OHKOes it. Likewise, all of the multihit moves to bypass Focus Sash fail to OHKO with Tera Steel so they are not guaranteed to prevent Sticky Web. Most of the Pokémon in conditional are not dealing with Smeargle itself, but relying on a pivoting move to break the Focus Sash and are outsped and thus highly susceptible to Spore. The only Pokémon capable of consistently denying Sticky Web are the dedicated leads while Dragon Dance Zygarde is a very good punish, especially for those who greed and drop Perish Song. Yes a dedicated lead’s job is to set up their entry hazard of choice, but Smeargle is simply too good at doing so against nearly everything.
So now you’ve now dispatched the setter. You likely have not denied Sticky Web because the limited options for doing so only fit on a narrow band of teams in the first place and all the other 90% must figure out how they'll facilitate removing them. This usually means getting past Yveltal. Even without Sticky Web present, Yveltal is arguably the most centralizing Pokémon in the metagame and can dictate the viability of a team due to its limited counterplay. For example, an Arceus forme that does not outspeed Yveltal will lose to it long term as Oblivion Wing simply does too much and it will be locked out of recovery. Furthermore, Arceus formes need to invest some SpD EVs to do this consistently and this is noticeable when they are 372 Speed.
Yveltal can be difficult to deal with at the best of times, but with Sticky Web up it is a nightmare and is ruthlessly effective at maintaining them. With Sticky Web up, Arceus-Rock is the only Arceus forme that can somewhat reliably beat Yveltal and this is only due to the shift to Tera Fire. Even then, it is only a Dark Pulse flinch away from losing.
Defensively handling Yveltal is a role usually relegated to the Arceus forme due to a dearth of other options. Balance and bulky offense structures have been forced to adapt as their normal avenues of counterplay are invalidated with Sticky Web up. If you cannot get through Yveltal, you are likely not removing Sticky Web and are thus losing. Even if you are able to do so, sacrificing too many Pokémon or using the wrong Pokémon to do so can easily result in a loss. For example, Overheat Primal Groudon does trade with Yveltal, but that is likely your primary counterplay to the omnipresent Zacian-C which makes this an incredibly lopsided trade.
Offensive counterplay is easier to find, but they usually require Sticky Web to be removed so they are not outsped. Let’s look at how the Defoggers match up and how teams scrounge for counterplay and facilitate the removal of Sticky Web.
Choice Scarf Yveltal’s raison d'être is its fantastic matchup into hyper offense with Sticky Web being arguably its best. It will guarantee removal of Sticky Web whilst its ability to revenge kill Zacian-C and Extreme Killer Arceus, albeit often with the help of Tera, is a lot of role compression in a single slot. The issue is that Choice Scarf Yveltal tends to be thoroughly mediocre when loading into almost anything else and this makes it incredibly difficult to justify on teams not in need of the specific role compression it offers. This kind of limits it to offense structures that have enough firepower to end games quickly as Choice Scarf Yveltal is not a reliable source of hazard control if it has to do so more than once and thuds into most archetypes fatter than bulky offence. A lot of people seem to love throwing it onto balance and bulky offence, but it is rarely worth having to compensate for its flaws given how narrow its positives are. It is a ‘great’ set, but only on a narrow band of teams. It Defogs effortlessly against Life Orb Yveltal, but loses pretty handily 1v1.
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Offensive Ho-Oh can 1v1 Yveltal, especially as Sucker Punch is the default and if that is dropped it is usually for Heat Wave not Knock Off. Despite this, it has difficulty removing Sticky Web without some support as it is going to be left at low enough HP to be knocked out by just about anything afterwards. It can regen enough HP after to Defog against something, but this is much easier said than done and often won’t really make a difference in the outcome. Consequently, Ho-Oh often relies on support to handle or at least chip Yveltal. The most reliable way to do this is via Fezandipiti’s Icy Wind and U-turning to Ho-Oh. While Fezandipiti is a great Pokémon for reasons outside of this interaction, it is far from splashable and has not yet proven itself on bulky offense. Maybe it will, but it has not yet.
Defensive Primal Kyogre is the other primary option for balance and bulky offense structures as its special bulk enables it to trade with Yveltal regardless of tera. Furthermore, most Yveltal are Tera Fire rather than Tera Dark. However, Primal Kyogre is a fair bit riskier than Fezandipiti due to the risk of switching into Dark Pulse and the accompanying 20% flinch rate which will happen from time to time. Fortunately, it should leave Yveltal within range of Ho-Oh under all but the most egregious situations. Hax sometimes happens and it does even out, that is just Pokémon. Even then, it can be a little tricky finding the proper lines with Primal Kyogre as it doesn’t really want to deal with Smeargle. Primal Kyogre can handle a Dark Pulse flinch if it is unstatused, but trying to 1v1 Yveltal whilst paralyzed is a different matter and it obviously cannot do it whilst asleep. Hell, even if it is poisoned Dark Pulse is going to 2HKO.
Loading into Sticky Webs with Giratina-O will often send shivers down your spine. There are a lot of metagame developments over the last year that Giratina-O dislikes, but the optimization and surge in popularity of Sticky Webs is probably the worst of the bunch. Giratina-O is substantially more reliant on support than Ho-Oh or any of the other options listed here because even if things go perfectly a Giratina-O team is frequently sacrificing Giratina-O, tera, or both to remove Sticky Webs. If Giratina-O manages to Defog in front of Yveltal it will either have to tera or be relegated to a sac later in the game, neither of which are ideal.
One of the nice things about Giratina-O is how it naturally handles Tera Normal Double-Edge Extreme Killer Arceus and it will be unable to do so later on if it removes Sticky Web, but its team will likely lose if it doesn’t, resulting in a lose-lose scenario. Consequently, modern Giratina-O teams are often intensely structurally limited if they’re unwilling to accept that they’re going to be a matchup fish. Even then, loading Giratina-O can sometimes feel like a fish. As a whole, Giratina-O is probably the Pokémon that is most negatively impacted by Sticky Web and this is reflected in its drop from A+ a year ago to B+ in the last slate. Giratina-O has similar issues with Hstack hyper offense due to Yveltal, but at least against those its teams can reasonably play the game because it doesn’t mess with the Speed tiers and Giratina-O can do its whole survive just about any attack and provide value through some combination of offensive pressure and utility.
Mega Diancie has always been solid, even if underappreciated until relatively recently. Its lead set completely denies Sticky Web, but the reason it rose on the last slate is due to successful experimenting with its wallbreaking set (Substitute +3a) on offence and bulky offense due to the amount of role compression it provides. It is a menace against bulky offence and balance structures early-game whilst having a surprising amount of defensive utility. Rock / Fairy kinda slaps defensively despite Mega Diancie’s frailty as it provides resistances to some of the most difficult Pokémon to switch into with Yveltal being amongst them.
Mega Diancie is already great into Sticky Web already for its ability to deny from the lead, but can be counter-lead by Zacian-C. This isn’t really a huge deal because you’ll assuredly have Zacian-C counterplay and it results in the Webs user either losing their boost or Zacian-C. Even in this worst case scenario, Clear Body lets Mega Diancie ignore the Speed drop once and still deal with Yveltal. Furthermore, Yveltal cannot utilize tera to get out of this situation. Unless using hyper offense, Mega Diancie should usually be paired with hazard removal as it only really denies entry hazards against hyper offense structures.
Mega Salamence isn’t a Pokémon I’d have included a couple of months ago. I’m only really including it now because of a team I made during the ghosting tour that I and few other people have brought to the Open and that has done quite well. During the ghosting your Jumpheart, R8, and I were just looking to have fun and deviate from GHAZ structures and one concept I wanted to try out was an offense team with a good Sticky Web matchup that didn’t utilize Choice Scarf Yveltal or Mega Diancie. Mega Salamence ended up being a very good fit and it is probably the first time I’ve enjoyed using it in well over year because it only needs to do a few things and can do that quite well. In a way, it is pretty similar to Choice Scarf Yveltal except its positive matchups are skewed more towards bulky offense and balance while consistently removing Sticky Web for the benefit of its teammates. It has few other things it does alright such as switch into Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh, but is fairly limited beyond that. If it wasn’t for that one team it probably wouldn’t be included on this list. I still think Mega Salamence is a mediocre Pokémon in this metagame as its risk:reward ratio is skewed far too negatively, but in this role it can be consistent. I’ll probably make a RMT and make that team public after the open. I made a few different versions of the team, but the one that has been loaded is the only one I'd describe as consistent.
Heavy-Duty Boots Eternatus an honourable mention and the least ‘real’ Pokémon I’m willing to include. There are other viable Pokémon that do beat Yveltal with Sticky Web up, they are too niche to mention. Arceus-Rock would be the main one that comes to mind, but even if I like it, it is ultimately a Pokémon that makes an appearance once or twice in a tour and doesn’t really fit on much. I think Heavy-Duty Boots Eternatus is pretty trash because defensive Eternatus is trash, but realistically it is how I think you’d want to run it at the moment. It isn’t pretty, but Toxicing Yveltal and letting it KO Eternatus does do the job. I have not seen it on stall yet, but it is probably worth trying out there as the main benefit of Sticky Web in that matchup is letting Chi-Yu outspeed Eternatus. Wallbreaker Eternatus works in theory, but your chances of Meteor Beam landing are about the same as Focus Blast. That is to say it isn't something you can reliably rely on.
You Must Be This Tall to Play
That is a lot of yapping to cover what is realistically the first 5-6 turns. The issue is for most teams if you cannot do that…you lose. It isn’t just about beating Yveltal, one can do that, but if you’re sacrificing half your team to get past Yveltal the end result is the same. This dynamic is only exacerbated by the cavalcade of bullshit that Smeargle chucks your way. It is a tough path to navigate as removing Sticky Web doesn’t enable you to win the game, simply play it. There is still rest of the team to handle which a difficult, but reasonable task.
This is predicated on having removed Sticky Web otherwise Chi-Yu will probably finish the job. It doesn’t have much real defensive counterplay and Webs remove the few Pokémon that can feasibly answer it. Calm Mind + Taunt Arceus formes can setup on it, but not with Sticky Web up. Even the most famed anti-offense tools in Ditto, Marshadow, and Yveltal all struggle against Chi-Yu. It truly is what elevated Sticky Webs due to a shockingly amazing matchup into the specific Pokémon and bulkier playstyles that gave older iterations of Sticky Web trouble when utilizing Ultra Necrozma.
Chi-Yu certainly relies on Sticky Web to utilize its full potential, but the remaining three members of the team are threats regardless of whether Sticky Web is present or removed. The issue is getting to this point in the game. It is easy to build a team that will never lose to Sticky Web, the difficult part is building one that is good against the rest of the metagame.
The best comparison is the other major archetype: hazard stack. Deoxys-S or Glimmora are likely to do their job, but past that it is largely a skillful and interactive battle where the player who is able to better position their Pokémon and manage their resources is likely to win. The threats synergistically work together to break down the opposing team in conjunction with entry hazards. Your counterplay generally works as it should and importantly you have agency. On the other hand, playing against Sticky Web is linear, uninteractive, and consists of guesswork based on a coinflip. You’re happy to see Shuckle because Encore can be played around compared to having to guess whether or not the Smeargle user decided on Nuzzle or Spore, or both as we just saw in the pentathalon. This is in spite of Hstack and Sticky Web structures often being identical outside of the lead and Z-crystal holder.
Metagame Influence
As mentioned earlier, Sticky Web doesn’t inherently pose a threat to a metagame’s health by its mere existence. It only when it reaches a certain level of consistency that it starts to pose an issue due to centralizing the metagame around itself in a deeply unhealthy manner due to disregarding the core tenants that underpin competitive play. Sometimes all that is required to account for metagame developments is time as builders learn how to accommodate for new threats as was the case for Dragon Dance Zygarde and wallbreaker Eternatus. However, at this point, Sticky Web has been around in its current structures for around a year and the only emergent counterplay has been Fezandipiti.
Outside of this, the main metagame adaption has largely been an intense culling of the diversity of structures, sets, and Pokémon. Sometimes having a solid matchup against Sticky Webs isn’t enough if the Pokémon cannot contribute to the removal of Sticky Web as is the case with Zacian-C. We’ve seen entire archetypes nearly vanish from the metagame such as Hstack HO and the Alomomola structures that were metagame defining a year ago. Hstack HO isn’t bad, far from it, but it is hard to justify using that over Sticky Web as the archetype is largely outclassed and has a poor matchup into Sticky Web itself. Alomomola structures have nearly disappeared despite a solid matchup into most of the rest of the metagame as running into Sticky Web is almost an autoloss at preview and fixing that is near impossible.
Furthermore, balance and fat balance were near dead as a playstyle before the discovery of Fezandipiti. Most of the balances at this time could easily be mistaken for bulky offense. Dragon Dance Zygarde was popular on these structures because people were still ignoring it in the builder so it was a bit broken, but also because that was one of the few methods of counterplay available because its ability to disrupt via phasing before going down meant removing Sticky Web was reasonably possible.
With the benefit of hindsight we can see those were bad teams, but we also are not overflowing with options at the moment. It shouldn’t be shocking that the majority of good balances today probably have Fezandipiti or defensive Primal Kyogre. Defensive Primal Kyogre works on bulky offense and the occasional offense, but there you’d want something like Mega Diancie which still wants proper hazard control alongside it.
Additionally, Sticky Web makes Giratina-O feel like a fake Pokémon because if you’re relying on it as hazard removal you’re likely sacrificing two Pokémon and maybe tera to get Sticky Webs off, which isn’t always even possible. Pokémon such as offensive Eternatus and Zacian-C have transitioned from staples to rare outside of offense simply because they require additional support to facilitate the removal of Sticky Webs in a metagame where slots are already at a premium.
The surge of Sticky Web over the last year has made some Pokémon better, but it is ultimately a net negative for the tier both in the builder and in-game. The Open is probably the first time I have not bemoaned the level of Trick Room use because you’re loading it to matchup fish and you’re a lot more likely to hit the jackpot. That and Ribombee being C+ solely due to being a Sticky Web setter that denies the other setters should be massive red flags.
Let’s Get Straight to the Biscuits
So that was an incessant amount of yapping. If it wasn’t clear before that I think Sticky Web needs action it should be by now. Even with all that, I don’t think National Dex Ubers is in a dire spot in terms of competitiveness. When the survey rolls around, I’ll probably give that section a 7 or 8. The issue is primarily the limited options we have in making a good team given the circumstances. I’d also like to again clarify that these views are my own, not the council’s. Any tiering action is contingent on our playerbase indicating enough support to justify a suspect test. That being said, I see three reasonable paths of action to neuter Sticky Web.
Ban Smeargle
In a vacuum, this is my preferred option. I think there is a realistic possibility that the move itself is too strong, as outlined below. However, a Smeargle ban would allow us to more objectively evaluate whether or not the move itself is the issue. I’m not in favour of a Moody ban or a sleep moves clause because they are just a mechanism to nerf Smeargle without having a suspect test. Furthermore, they also don’t address the fundamental issue of Smeargle’s support movepool. We could ban both of these tomorrow and I’d still be yelling from the rafters to ban Smeargle. They are not the root cause of the tomfoolery, just an additional factor. There is a seemingly endless depth to the cheese people are willing to run, but nobody is running Glailie or Darkrai. The main reason I would not be in favour of a Smeargle ban is if there happens to be enough support to ban the move itself.
Ban Sticky Web Outright
This is the most ‘drastic’ path of action. In our last survey we asked about the move itself, not about any particular element of the playstyle. Despite this, Sticky Web received a score of 5.1 from the qualified playerbase. To my knowledge, banning the move is allowed under our current tiering guidelines. The major question is: would Sticky Web remain too powerful without Smeargle as a setter?
At the time, I wasn’t entirely sure and still fluctuate somewhat. Shuckle is an honest setter of a dishonest hazard. The argument would be that Sticky Web is strong enough by itself and easy enough to maintain that it is overpowered regardless of the setter. I somewhat agree with that statement as getting past Yveltal with Sticky Web up is still an immense challenge, but undeniably easier when you are not guessing which of your Pokémon you can allow to be crippled. The thing is, a Smeargle ban doesn’t really broaden the available counterplay to the bottleneck that is Yveltal.
Ban Yveltal
Jumpheart would be happy. Banning Yveltal is really more of a contingency and last ditch attempt at neutering Sticky Web should neither the move nor Smeargle receive enough support. It certainly isn’t happening now and I wouldn’t be shocked if Smeargle received two suspect tests before this option would be even be considered by the wider playerbase. It is likely not all that different from a Sticky Web ban in practise given the integral role Yveltal plays. It is a shame because Yveltal encapsulates the essence of a ‘broken’ Uber in a fair way. It is oppressive with limited counterplay, but that counterplay is reasonable to incorporate and Yveltal is otherwise a healthy presence in the metagame. Unfortunately, it arguably is the root cause of why Sticky Web is what it is, more so than any of the setters. Sticky Web is an absurdly powerful field condition and Yveltal is the root cause. If nothing changes for a year then maybe there will be a desire to take action on Yveltal, but we definitely are not there now.
Chasing The Dragon
I’ve mentioned Ultra Necrozma a few times here and there and without a shadow of a doubt still believe it should be banned. If nothing else, it plays a factor in Sticky Web being as broken as it is due to Chi-Yu beating all of the counterplay Ultra Necrozma forces in the builder. If the survey comes and Ultra Necrozma is the only subject that has enough support for a suspect I’d happily vote to proceed with one. However, my speculation is that an Ultra Necrozma ban is not going to massively improve the state of the metagame without some sort of action on Sticky Web. This is because Sticky Web imposes similar pressures in the builder. For example, you’re likely to want your Arceus forme to resist Dark due to Yveltal and Chi-Yu. You’re still likely to want to use Marshadow over Zacian-C or Eternatus on balance and bulky offense due to requiring similar support, but offering more offensive role compression and consistency.
Maybe I’m just a bit jaded right now, but I don’t think that an Ultra Necrozma ban alone would ‘fix’ the current issues in the metagame. It would undoubtedly be a start in the right direction. Unlike every other subject of our surveys, I can’t really think of any positive traits Ultra Necrozma brings to the table. The Stealth Rock set is fun on bulky offense every now and then, but doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. It is just a massive beatstick that constrains teams in the builder to an unreasonable degree.
Lately I’ve been feeling that it might even be manageable in a world without Sticky Web as that does mean you’re demanding less of your Arceus forme. That also might just be the result of pulling my hair out for the last 8 months trying to build fun/interesting stuff only to realize it gets deleted by Sticky Web and consequently Ultra Necrozma feels tame in comparison. Regardless, if you've made it through this rambling yapp thank you for your time! I've yapped for far too long, yet it somehow feels like I've left so much out.
Yveltal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dark Aura
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 128 HP / 248 Def / 132 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Foul Play
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Taunt
as it packs a lot of utility in taunt toxic and u turn vs a verity of archetypes, along with foul play to revenge kill. with that depending on the leads moveset it can prevent webs, but this is risky as mirror coat can give a much worse situation. but that is what my lead screens dragapult is for but yall were not ready to hear that
with all that aside fuck sticky web fuck smeargle and fuck lugia for no particular reason, i just hate that guy. i support banning sticky webs, as the mere presence of them restricts the meta to an unhealthy degree as it is a very black and white playstyle IMO, with games being decided on lead reveals, which is just bad for skill expression in battle, which is half the game.
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