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I feel like I should clarify that I am not opposed to people wanting to ban any of these Pokemon, even if I disagree. What I am very opposed to is the attitude towards them. A pro ban argument in a tier as good as this should way the pros and cons, and look at what the outcome would be of this decision, instead of saying something is ruining the tier and has to go no matter what. Banning any of these Pokemon, especially Yveltal or Zygarde, could lead to a chain reaction that ends up destabilizing the tier and banning over half a dozen Pokemon, which is something nobody wants. Before even considering banning something, you should make sure you aren't removing the wolves from Yellowstone. To be blunt, nothing about anything cyclone has said makes me think she has even considered any negative impacts this could have.
Actually I think I just talked myself into a new stance. Prior to this I didn't want anything to be banned, although I wouldn't be too upset to see Zacian go. However, I have now come to a conclusion:
We, under no circumstances, must ban both Yveltal and Zygarde-C.
Let me ask you this. If we ban Zygarde and ban Yveltal:
What do we have to check Marshadow?
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon-Primal: 180-214 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Do you realize how bad this is? Without Zygarde or Yveltal, we don't really have a reliable check to Marshadow without tera. Even Eternatus can't really check it with any amount of consistency. Marshadow would become an overwhelming presence that would be impossible to answer with anything currently mainstream.
"Then just ban Marshadow"
Then what? We just banned three of the best Pokemon in the tier. This will alter the meta in ways we cannot predict. We just banned the best user of priority in the game, a crucial member of so many defensive cores, and an incredibly versatile pokemon. Hell, all three of these are some of the most common checks to Ultra Necrozma. Then, would we have to ban Ultra Necrozma? If so, that is a fourth Pokemon we need to ban. Then, without Ultra Necrozma and Marshadow, certain team structures would have a very hard time checking Zacian. If we then ban Zacian, what fills the niche that Zacian and Marshadow used to? The only mainstream fast sweeper/wallbreaker left is Eternatus. This would probably make Eternatus overcentralising. Then, If we ban Eternatus, we just lost arguably the current second best Pokemon, and an incredibly versatile one that many teams rely on. What would be the results of that? We can only speculate, but a loss of the best special attacker in the tier would alter the meta drastically. Perhaps without an easy way to break through it, Giratina-O would become much more used. Thenl, if we ban that, what happens to Primal Groudon? Do you see where I am going with this?
This is a good exercise in what can happen with reckless banning, but it also particularly shows that without Yveltal or Zygarde, things can and probably will spiral out of control fast.
Cancel Cult and AM basically said what I think. I really hate this anti-broken-checking-broken attitude that this site has had for years now. I'm sorry but I DO think about the metagame after something goes, and think about the positives and negatives that comes with it. I would go on tirade about how NDOU made decisions that actively hurt the tier but I didn't get reqs for anyone of them. (Notice a pattern? Kingambit > Dragapult > Gholdengo > Zamazenta > Darkrai).
Zygarde is the only one I feel is potentially unhealthy due how hard it is to fit its answers on a team and lot of them lose if the Zygarde is running a different set. Granted by getting rid of Zygarde you open the door to Zacian being able to use its stronger STAB, Marshadow would be harder to deal without the punish of pushing Zygarde under 50, and of course Ekiller would have a field day (NDM would be more viable though). Which is why I am conflicted if its worth it.
Anything else has reasonable counter play or a meme.
This phrase perfectly encapsulates what I hate about the pro-ban crowd. National Dex Ubers doesn't need to be saved. This format is incredibly fun, and frankly by far the most uncompetitive part about it in my opinion is Primal Groudon's slot machine of a movepool, but Primal Groudon holds the tier together far too well to ban. None of these Pokemon ruin the tier. Do some of them make it less fun? Perhaps. But this gung ho attitude to banning things of "if I don't like it, it needs to go" is dangerous. If it ain't broke, you should be very careful about fixing it. For example, currently two of the best answers to Marshadow are Yveltal and Zygarde, both things on the suspect test. Without them, Marshadow would become much harder to stop, and would be very oppressive in the teambuilder. Without Ultra Necrozma, Hyper Offense teams would lose an invaluable part of their defensive core, making it much harder for them to answer threats like Zacian. These Pokemon have crucial places in the meta, and without them things could very well fall apart. When changing a metagame, you have to think incredibly carefully about the pros and cons, and just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you should ban it. National Dex Ubers is a great tier that is fairly balanced, but if we aren't careful, we could very well change that here.
I fully recognize what Yveltal brings to the metagame. It's a keystone piece that at this point is nearly impossible to remove. This is not a situation where a mon brings no positive qualities. As long as that's "nearly impossible", though, I will continue to post about my distaste for this mon. Can't blame a girl for trying to bring down the castle!
I will say I don't think National Dex Ubers is a great tier that is fairly balanced. I rated it a 6 for competitiveness and a 4 for enjoyability, so there is an immediate philosophical mismatch; you're coming at this assuming that I agree with you. I don't. I care about this tier but I reject your premise that this is a great tier in its current state. That's just, like, your opinion, man.
I've said this before on Discord but I would be curious to see how a Kokoloko'd NatDex Ubers would go. Is this reasonable? Not at all! Is it a good idea? Probably not! It's something I share not because I expect it to happen but to clarify my position on the brokens of the tier and my philosophy when approaching them.
I absolutely get the worry behind the cascading bans. It's something I'm personally okay with since there's like 10 mons that are all at least bordering on broken in my opinion, but if you're okay with that fair enough.
Alright, I think that I might as well share what I think SHOULD be banned in this tier. It's really only two things, and neither of them are good, since I am as previously stated very hesitant to ban things that actually have an effect on the metagame.
Double Iron Bash should be erased from existence. A 51% chance to just have you not move that turn is incredibly uncompetitive. Melmetal provides basically nothing to the tier, as Trick Room is an incredibly niche and pretty bad strategy that already has Calyrex. We lose nothing from getting it out, and we will probably prevent someone from having a BS loss in tour.
Now, as much as I think that Double Iron Bash does nothing but cause problems for the metagame, this next one is personal.
I hate this thing with a burning passion. Words cannot describe how much I loathe this crime against humanity. I don't care that it is not viable. I don't care that it doesn't appear in tournaments. I want this thing gone. This thing shouldn't be in any metagame ever. It is the most uncompetitive thing to ever exist. I cannot stress how much I hate this thing. But if I were to ban things for pissing me off, i'd've banned stall a long time ago. No, I wholeheartedly believe that this abomination deserves to be banned. This thing is prevalent even near high ladder, with a 2% usage rate at 1630+. You might think that since it only appears on ladder, it has no effect on the meta at large. You would be wrong. The ladder plays an important part in the tier. For many, it is how they train for a tournament. It already takes quite a bit of time to find a competent player on ladder, so any loss due to Air Slash RNG will set you back a significant amount, especially if you made a new account to hide your identity while testing your team. Worse still, during suspect tests where you have to get a certain score with a new account in a limited amount of time, Skymin becomes the devil incarnate. A loss to Skymin from a low ladder player will set you back significantly, which could potentially prevent some people from getting the reqs for a suspect test. This thing will never contribute to the tier, and only exists to make our lives worse. The only thing we lose from banning it is pain. I don't care if it takes the form of an Air Slash ban, a Serene Grace ban, a complex ban, or just an outright banning of Skymin. Whatever it takes, Skymin must die.
Enjoyment [8] I was kind of torn on how to answer the enjoyment question as I wouldn’t say I’m in love with the tier at the moment, but that is related more to general mons burnout than issues I have with the tier. I still love building and yapping, still don’t love playing, but that has always been the case. I have my gripes, but they are not the end of the world. There is a lot of complaining and moaning to follow, but when I take a step back and think about it, I do genuinely quite like the tier. It isn’t perfect, but it is quite good. I probably should have put a 7 though.
Competitiveness [7] I think for every single one of these surveys I’ve had competitiveness at an 8 or 9. I do think building is a bit too restrictive currently, largely due to Ultra Necrozma and to lesser degree – webs. However, except for moves missing, which will always be the case, I do believe the tier is very competitive. In retrospect I should have given it an 8. It isn’t as though every playstyle or archetype has a single viable composition. Stall is close to that, but this has always been the case and it has far too many flaws to fix with a reasonable degree of tiering action. Its mediocre, but viable and that’s fine. Despite the restrictive nature of building currently, I don’t feel that there is a playstyle you simply cannot or should not bring to an important game (except for stall) or that the better player loses with any regularity. Misses will cost you games at times, but that is just mons. Its not like we can code Precipice Blades to be 100% accurate.
Other Concerns: I wrote in Shadow Tag and Last Respects. I’ve yapped enough already in this post and about them in the past. I wholeheartedly believe they are uncompetitive and should be banned. I included them to show that there are people who want these elements banned should that opportunity present itself in the future.
[10]
I have been moaning about Ultra Necrozma for some time now to everyone who is willing to listen and many people who are not. When I talk to people with only passing familiarity with the tier, mentioning that I believe Ultra Necrozma is the biggest issue is usually met with befuddlement. This is because Ultra Necrozma is primarily an issue in the teambuilder as opposed to in-game. We do have counterplay, but the primary issue is how limited it is and how frankly shitty the soft checks are.
Sure you can slap Tera Dark on Arceus-Fairy or Eternatus, but unless you also include Wisp and Dragon Tail respectively you’re at the mercy of actually getting it to Ultra Burst as they can’t really damage until then. In all likelihood, this means sacking a Pokémon to get it Ultra Burst, then using Tera Dark to remove it. This is a damn lopsided trade. Also all of this leaves you incredibly vulnerable to Zacian-C. Tera Dark Ho-Oh is self-sufficient, but it is kinda shit most of the time outside of this interaction and heavily incentivises building a team where the other members don’t need to tera against HO which is more difficult in practise than on paper.
Or… you can just use Arceus-Dark or Marshadow. Hell it isn’t even any Marshadow, it needs to be Choice Band and requires you to commit tera anyways. Given how good Marshadow is against hyper offense anyways this isn’t the end of world, but you’d think Tera Ghost would be with a Life Orb. Even Calm Mind Arceus-Dark is kind of flimsy against a well played team as even Stealth Rock puts it in range of +1 Earthquake given Ultra Necrozma is 2HKOed by Judgment. It isn’t likely to have a boost already and honestly…this is Arceus – it shouldn’t be working with such thin margins. It has excellent bulk, is immune to Photon Geyser while being neutral to the coverage that lets Ultra Necrozma delete everything else due to Neuroforce.
Yveltal can get an honourable mention, but personally I’d consider a softish check. It can’t switch-in safely because it is deleted by Stone Edge. That same Stone Edge then means it has tera because otherwise its dying at +1 even if it is defensive. If it is Sucker Punch it probably wants Tera Dark as it is a 56.3% roll on the 40/80 spread and never OHKOes the other. So you’re giving up tera and/or playing Sucker Punch mindgames with a Pokémon that is widely perceived as a counter. Chien-Pao is in a worse boat as losing the Sucker Punch coinflip means something is getting sacked and then you can try again.
Also everything mentioned loses to Zacian-C. They synergize incredibly well together against everything other than stall. That being said, we could quickban Ultra Necrozma tomorrow and Zacian-C use probably isn’t going to dip at all because its still great on hyper offense regardless. Zacian-C does provide at least some value to the tier, even if the extent of this debatable. On the other hand, Ultra Necrozma is little more than a glorified beatstick.
The primary issue is that you can’t afford to be a little weak to Ultra Necrozma in the same way you can for the other massive threats. After a boost it outspeeds everything while also 2HKOing nearly everything at worst. Sure Necrozma-DM doesn’t really care about The Light that Burns the Sky, but it gets blown up by Earthquake and defensive sets are close to if not unviable while still losing anyways.
In NDBD I played 8 games and brought Arceus-Dark 7 times. The one game I didn’t was in the semis and that team had a Choice Band Marshadow. It also had a Zarude and when I talked about it with Bob a few months beforehand, he thought it was Ultra Necrozma counterplay. In practise it is probably ok enough thanks to Encore, but that really wasn’t its purpose and it didn’t have a Dark-type move. I thought about it, but even Darkest Lariat does a disappointing amount of damage while Zarude still gets blown up by +1 Stone Edge. Ultra Necrozma had a very poor showing in NDBD in part because of how it warps teambuilding around it. You can bring Arceus-Dark, but it also cannot do much of anything until Ultra Necrozma comes out. If there is some niche mon or set that goobs your team, it is what it is as shit happens. Say ggs and tip your cap (s/o Kenn). Not only does Ultra Necrozma threaten to end the game after a single boost without its counters, it is incredibly common as well in both ladder and tournament play. You can sort of dance around most stuff with a decent team, but that isn’t the case when it comes to Ultra Necrozma.
A week ago I thought I’d be saying kill it with fire, but given Sticky Web rather than a setter is on the table, I’d rather look at that first. Ultra Necrozma absolutely needs to be banned, but there is counterplay there. This makes it somewhat difficult as its effect is mostly felt in the teambuilder and well…a lot of people that participate in our suspect tests are given teams and reqs are pretty free given the quality of the ladder so the issues with Ultra Necrozma are not likely to present themselves in a run.
66% is a high threshold and at least during the Xerneas test you’d at least feel the pressure it exerted from the couple of real teams you’d face. Ultra Necrozma probably isn’t going to do that as you’re not likely to be given a team that has significant issues with Ultra Necrozma as it is probably unviable. It 100% should be banned, but I’m sceptical it would be.
[9]
Sticky Web itself being on the survey as opposed to Smeargle and Yveltal isn’t something I was initially a supporter of. I do think Sticky Web as an archetype is at a point where it is detrimental to the health of the metagame. If there is a potential suspect, it will be on the move itself rather than specific elements of the archetype. This isn’t an approach I’m ecstatic about, but it is the one we are taking. Given that, I submitted a 9, but probably should have submitted a 10 as I would have done that if Smeargle was the subject.
I’m really just not a fan of Sticky Web inherently. It is a pretty cheap and uninteractive playstyle, but this also isn’t a huge issue tiering wise if isn’t that good or consistent. When such playstyles reach a certain level of power and consistency, they start to have significant negative ramifications on the health of the metagame and Sticky Web has breached this threshold imo. It has been the dominant archetype of hyper offense for quite some time now to a degree that it can be difficult to use other archetypes of hyper offense due to how poorly they matchup against webs teams while webs also tends to be better into most of the rest of the metagame.
Sticky Web structures have been significantly optimized with the passage of time is a big factor. Smeargle has emerged as the primary setter due to, as Bob eloquently put it, an unparalleled ability to force progress. The standard three moves are Nuzzle, Perish Song, and Mortal / Rapid Spin. Nuzzle makes it so our Taunt users outside of Arceus-Ground can’t afford to attempt to prevent webs. Even then, they Taunt, Smeargle Nuzzles, it can switch out because the Focus Sash is still intact and outside of HO mirrors it is pretty much always going to find another opportunity to get webs up because it is fast enough to outspeed most defensive Pokémon. Furthermore, it isn’t often punished for greeding and dropping Perish Song as Dragon Dance Zygarde is not all that common in the grand scheme of things. The other option for denying webs is Mega Diancie which yeah it doesn’t want to take Nuzzle, but preventing the Webs from going up is enough.
Even with Perish Song, Dragon Dance Zygarde is somehow one of the better punishes to Smeargle as Dragon Tail bringing out a random Pokémon can facilitate removal and lord knows it isn’t likely to do jack shit otherwise against webs structures. This is primarily due to Yveltal making it incredibly difficult to remove webs as it beats most of its counterplay so long as they’re present and is well worth sacrificing to maintain webs. Sure offensive Ho-Oh can beat it, but it has a hard time doing that while finding an opportunity to remove webs later in the game.
Chi-Yu, while not problematic, really doesn’t have much of any defensive counterplay with Sticky Webs up and its Ghost- and Dark-type resistance makes it pretty resilient to priority from the bulky offense and balance teams it is supposed to handle. Furthermore, it allows Sticky Web structures to pretty easily dismantle stall, an archetype it significantly struggles against when running Ultra Necrozma. Yveltal is already fast for a breaker and Chi-Yu outspeeds that and although it is frail, it has enough special bulk to setup on a significant portion of the special metagame while helping to maintain Sticky Webs with its own Taunt.
At the end of the day though, all webs really needs is Smeargle + Yveltal and any last four will work well enough even if we have established structures. From a council perspective I do feel we are better off suspecting an individual element (Smeargle) if there is support, but from a personal perspective I’d be glad to see Sticky Webs banned. This also isn't addressing Moody, which people don't use from some reason, not that I'm complaining. After thinking about it over the last few days I think Ultra Necrozma may be less constraining if Sticky Webs were banned and if we are to suspect anything as a result of this survey, I’d advocate for Sticky Web.
[5]
I’d vote to suspect Zacian-C, but I don’t know if I would ban it as I’m currently on the fence. Regardless, I think suspecting it now is a poor course of action. The metagame is in a good enough state that it would be likely be fine to cruise to the end of the generation without a suspect test. That being said, I do think it would benefit from tiering action. Despite this, Zacian-C is at best, third on my hitlist. This is because as frustrating as Zacian-C can be at times, it does provide a lot of benefits to the tier.
It is great both on and against hyper offense. Its provides defensive utility for hyper offense in a Normal-type resistance to help dissuade Extreme Killer Arceus whilst its natural bulk allows from some security against Marshadow. It is fairly effective Speed control as Deoxys-A struggles to revenge it without substantial chip although it is a harsh punish for using tera and Pheromosa is rare. The defensive typing also enables it to switch into specially offensive Yveltal once and scare it out while its matchup with Eternatus is appreciated. I consider Zacian-C to be heavily overrated, but these are all valuable attributes to many teams.
It also is significantly less effective as teams get bulkier, although it does tread the line between annoying and broken as its set variety can sometimes make it feel like the latter. What is infuriating is when its counterplay misses a move and Zacian-C sweeps. This is isn’t exclusive to Zacian-C, but it is a lot more noticeable. One of the frustrating things about NDUbers is the amount of Pokémon that require the use of inaccurate moves to function and there will be a non-insignificant portion of games decided this way regardless of Zacian-C. It is unfortunate, but it is what it is. You’ll lose more games to Primal Groudon never hitting important damage thresholds with Earthquake than you will to missing Precipice Blades.
I wouldn’t miss Zacian-C if it were banned, but its also more ‘annoying’ than problematic for me. If it was never nerfed it’d definitely be NDAG, but it is so its at least ok. For practical reasons, I don’t think it is a great idea to suspect Zacian-C at the moment given we have more pressing issues. If the playerbase wants, a suspect test is fine. I’m not sure how I’d actually vote if it came to that. I want to say I lean slightly DNB, but I’m a bit of a fence sitter on this one.
[1]
I did think about giving Zygarde a 2 as an acknowledgement of the Dragon Dance sets, but decided on a 1. Sure Zygarde is kind of broken, but also everything sort of is in Ubers? I don’t really view Zygarde much differently than any of our high ranked Pokémon. Sure can be annoying, I’ll give it that, but something being annoying at times isn’t really grounds for tiering action. Most importantly, it isn’t unhealthy. To the contrary, I firmly believe that Zygarde is a significant reason why the tier is playable and competitive to begin with and essential to the tiers health. I have zero desire to suspect it. Furthermore, it is the only survey subject I’d vote against suspecting, but would do so if the scores come back high enough (7-7.5). If our community overwhelmingly wants a Zygarde suspect, that is something I would respect despite my personal opinions.
There most important factors to me in determining if something is banworthy is its impact both in the teambuilder and in game and both neither Coil nor Dragon Dance Zygarde raise any alarm bells. The closest it comes is the lack of overlapping counterplay between the two sets – something that has gotten many Pokémon banned across various tiers. Even then, during the summer I think there was an argument, but with time we’ve adapted both our teambuilding and play to account for Dragon Dance Zygarde and its been…fine?
Dragon Dance Zygarde certainly can goob, but has to work hard enough to do so that it is fair. There are definitely teams where it can and will sweep at preview, but these are few and far between and these teams are usually overly passive balances and give it the space to do so. Furthermore, these teams often have the same issue with other Pokémon that punish passivity such as Taunt Calm Mind Arceus formes and wallbreaker Eternatus.
Against most teams Dragon Dance Zygarde has to work its ass off while taking significant risks to even get on the field. That last bit is key as despite having the potential to demolish many teams, Dragon Dance Zygarde can’t switch into much of anything safely due to its frailty and its to susceptibility to entry hazards / status. The best example of this is that Dragon Dance Zygarde can only really switch into Primal Groudon if it is setting an entry hazard. If it switches in on Toxic or Precipice Blades it will fail to accomplish much of anything. Even if it enters on Stealth Rock, it has then maintain the bluff that it is Coil Zygarde, Substitute on the Toxic, and hope Primal Groudon misses multiple Precipice Blades as even +2 Thousand Arrows doesn’t OHKO defensive Primal Groudon after a layer of Spikes without Tera Ground.
This is also one of the better setup opportunities Dragon Dance Zygarde is often going to get against balance and bulky offense – the playstyles that it excels against. The other primary avenue for Dragon Dance Zygarde to setup is against Tera Water Coil Zygarde, but again players have learned how to better play against this as simply Coiling prevents Zygarde from phasing behind its Substitute and it requires multiple consecutive good pulls to get the ball rolling. This can and does happen, but teams should generally be equipped to handle these gameplay loops relatively consistently.
Importantly, this is under ideal circumstances. I currently see Dragon Dance Zygarde as top threat, but it is much more effective on paper than in practise. It may beat much of Coil Zygarde’s counterplay, but it also cannot switch-in nor use these Pokémon as setup fodder. Its frailty and reliance on Terastallization also heavily limits Dragon Dance Zygarde’s ability to actually fit on a team. It can survive a hit from some stuff, but rarely multiple. Missing out on the defensive utility of Coil Zygarde simply isn’t something most balance teams can afford as it renders them far too vulnerable to Pokémon such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon and Choice Band Marshadow for comfort. Consequently, you want to use it on some sort of Giratina-O bulky offense, but Giratina-O is also mediocre at the moment.
The highs may be high, but ultimately the amount of resources required to facilitate Dragon Dance Zygarde in the teambuilder as well as the skill required to position it well is fair cost. It isn’t as though it simply finds a turn to Dragon Dance and then sweeps. It requires building your team in a way so that Zygarde can frequently tera as it often cannot get a second Dragon Dance and is wholly reliant on Tera Ground for power. It is also flops against HO outside of the lead slot while lacking the ability to break through stall. That being said, it is something you have to account for or it likely will find a way to sweep or leave irrecoverable damage against balance and bulky offense teams. So what options do these teams have?
Tera Fairy Coil Zygarde completely flips the script and turns Dragon Dance Zygarde into setup fodder. Unlike Pokémon using Tera Dark for Ultra Necrozma, this does have significant benefits outside of this matchup. Tera Fairy Garganacl exists as well, but that is quite niche. So what are the other options? Offensive Ho-Oh isn’t a full counter, but is a hard check with Tera Grass, especially if it is using Whirlwind instead of Thunder Wave. It has the bulk, power, and longevity to take Zygarde on as Brave Bird prevents it from freely using Substitute while Sacred Fire will always break Zygarde-C’s Substitute if it opts to Tera Ground. Bulkier options such as Calyrex-I and defensive Primal Kyogre easily trade and simply maintaining offensive pressure works as it isn’t much of a threat if it cannot setup freely. It might beat most of Coil Zygarde’s counterplay, but it importantly can’t use them as setup opportunities. For example, Zygarde might beat Arceus-Fairy if it Dragon Dances on the switch-in, but trying to simply Tera Ground and muscle through just results in its Thousand Arrows PP being stalled out.
I did not intend to yap this long about Zygarde, especially given most of it is stuff I’ve said before. Banning Zygarde would be terrible for NDUbers and would require a ton of subsequent bans to get the tier into a playable state. Zygarde can be an annoying fat fuck at times, but it is not banworthy.
Tl;Dr - Unecro and Sticky Web should be banned. I'm on the fence about Zacian-C, but also don't care much one way or the other. Zygarde is a healthy part of the metagame that makes the tier playable and Dragon Dance Zygarde, while good, is a lot scarier on paper than in practise
I started writing this after the survey released and there has been some discussion since which is great to see! I'd like to engage or respond to some of it.
Overall I don't really see a good reason to keep it in the tier beyond general skepticism on what should be allowed at all per Uber tiering policy (and even then as Ubers has been developing into a proper metagame, that's a glorified way of saying "this is where we dump brokemons, let's allow anything whatsoever for the fun of it", please play an AG format instead if you're into that),
The most reliable counterplay in practice are Ditto, Landorus-T, and Dondozo. Ditto has issues reliably hard-switching into it, and may fail at backfiring the setup or the triggering of Intrepid Sword twice if Zacian-C doesn't run moves that'd target itself well (Behemoth Blade, Close Combat), with Tera Blast improofing itself quite well, while Landorus-T is also tasked with checking foes like Marshadow and Zygarde. Dondozo is limited to hard-stall, which has been extremely limited since the start of the metagame and will remain niche regardless.
Ultimately all of those and Primal Groudon also have longevity issues as they all lack reliable recovery, so with 5 other Pokemon backing up Zacian-C, it's not too difficult to play the long game and put them into range for Zacian-C to sweep.
I think it is fair to add Coil Zygarde onto this list. Even +1 Play Rough doesn't OHKO with a Spike up and Tera Water survives any +3 hit. If it is Sunsteel Stike Zygarde can handle it without teraing and Glare absolutely cripples Zacian-C if it makes its way through Zygarde. What separates Zacian-C from Ultra Necrozma imo is that in most games it is going to be reliant on tera to break through its counterplay so teraing in return is fair imo. Also Zacian-C really can’t afford to get that initial entry point wrong as it loses most of its ability to break without the free boost.
I also don’t really see the issue with Primal Groudon lacking longevity as that is kind of its whole thing. It might at least soft check nearly everything but gets overwhelmed fairly easily. A huge part of why it is the best Pokémon in the tier is that it is going to be doing something incredibly important in most games. A lot of the time that will be checking Zacian-C. Sure Zacian-C + Primal Kyogre overwhelms it, but this is also something that should be accounted for in the builder as a team relying on it to do both at the same time likely has a lot of flaws.
One thing that continually surprises me with Primal Groudon is how loose so many people are with its HP – especially when it comes to setting hazards. I’ll see a lot of people sacrifice half the HP on their Primal Groudon to win the hazard war just to set Stealth Rock against teams that are not even weak to them. Yeah hazards are good, but so is our removal and Primal Groudon’s HP is often more important. Sure it checks seemingly everything, but only when its healthy. I find people often ask way too much of their Primal Groudon and get burnt in return. If Primal Groudon could do everything people seem to ask of it…it’d probably be banworthy.
Unlike the usual Pokemon, Zygarde can afford to fit setup and ways to hinder checks at the same time, with Dragon Tail phazing the sturdiest answers like Dondozo, Tera Grass Ho-Oh, and IronPress Garganacl, and Glare hinders nearly the entire metagame, leaving only Tera Fairy Garganacl and Taunt users (mainly Arceus formes and Yveltal) as the most reliable answers.
Tera Fairy Coil Zygarde absolutely shuts down both sets and at worst forces a stalemate. Offensive Ho-Oh is very good against both Coil and Dragon Dance sets if it runs Whirlwind and is very good against Dragon Dance sets regardless of whether it runs Thunder Wave or Whirlwind. There is also the Taunt Arceus formes and Yveltal that you've mentioned. Tera Fairy Garganacl may be quite niche and Dondozo may be limited to stall. Outside of stall though nearly every team is going to have at least two of these fairly hard checks and if Zygarde is Coil Tera Fairy Overheat kind of cooks it. Getting Zygarde to Rest also makes it quite exploitable and lets you get in special attackers without fearing Glare. Here is a Garganacl balance I built during NDPL but did not bring. Even ignoring the Tera Fairy Garganacl I don't think it has issues with Zygarde despite relying on Pheromosa as a breaker.
But that's where the Dragon Dance set appears, with the capability to outspeed the Taunt foes to hinder them or setup again, combined with the surprisingly difficult to wall Tera Ground Thousand Arrows, Zygarde becomes way more difficult to reliably handle, it can even punish bulkier counterplay with Substitute, not only preventing phazing by Dragon Tail foes like Giratina-O, it also protects it from the Toxic spam in the defensive metagame as well as a burn from Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire
It certainly can do this, but as mentioned above, I think Dragon Dance Zygarde’s ability to just run away with games is significantly overblown and often a result of skilful play. I’ve been a pretty public hater of physical Giratina-O for longer than Dragon Dance Zygarde has been popular. It just doesn’t properly handle most of the Pokémon that Giratina-O should be checking (Coil Zygarde being a big one) which is a big issue given that Giratina-O is only good against a few Pokémon and loses v nearly everything else. Yes Dragon Dance Zygarde does punish bulky passive stuff, but also that is sort of the point? It does this at the cost of being horrible into offense, somewhat difficult to use and position well to do its thing, and being a pretty big tera hog since it lacks the oomph without Tera Ground and often struggles to get to +2. Yes it ignores the burn from Ho-Oh’s Sacred Fire, but if it Tera Grounds as it likely needs to, Sacred Fire also breaks Zygarde-C’s Substitute and Ho-Oh is often Tera Grass anyways making this a neutral trade. Its fallen out of favour, but Palkia-O does the same thing against a lot of these teams.
The only real flaw of Dragon Dance sets compared to Coil ones is the significantly lower mixed bulk leaving it more vulnerable to being KOed, by extension abandoning a good portion of its defensive niche.
I think this is really underselling it. The defensive value Dragon Dance Zygarde eschews is immense the point where it heavily limits the teams it fits on to where you can reasonably guess the set at preview or the team is greedy and is going to heavily punished a lot of the time given how difficult it is for Zygarde to setup in practise. It can live a hit (rarely more except against passive stuff) from a fair amount of Pokémon, but can’t really setup on much and can safely switch into even less. Even if it isn’t immediately obvious at preview how it plays is often going to give it away as Zygarde not switching into stuff should set off some alarms. Dragon Dance Zygarde isn’t giving up a good portion its defensive niche (I think value is a much better word here as niche is really underselling it), it is pretty much abandoning it.
Overall, while a solid part of the metagame, Zygarde-C does also have the potential to just brute force past most so-called checks with the right set, and no teams can afford to properly fit counterplay to all sets without relying on very specific options that don't fit on most teams, so while it has more merit than Ultra Necrozma, I'm not much of a fan of Zygarde-C either.
Not liking Zygarde is absolutely fine, but saying its impossible for most teams to reasonably handle is just kind of baffling to me. Is Zygarde a top Pokémon in the metagame? Absolutely. Can it be annoying? Absolutely. Is it difficult to handle? I personally don’t think so, but it also isn’t overly strenuous. It just doesn’t tend to be a let me blow up this up with a button mash. If you’re a hyper offense enjoyer Tera Normal Double-Edge Extreme Killer Arceus OHKOes it after a boost. Wallbreaker Primal Kyogre blows up both sets. Ultra Necrozma OHKOes at +1. Specially offensive Yveltal is very good against it. Dragon Dance Zygarde is mediocre as hell v hyper offense outside of the lead slot and Coil is just decentish. It isn’t great, it isn’t horrible. That is just stuff that blows it up solo, hyper offense is all about overwhelming shared counterplay so the popular webs combo of Chi-Yu + Behemoth Blade Zacian-C means Zygarde doesn’t have an out via Tera.
Coil Zygarde is more annoying for HO, but not something I think is particularly burdensome against other archetypes. They pretty all have Taunt, Toxic, and phasing which are excellent tools against Coil Zygarde while being able to support Pokémon which are good against both sets such as defensive Primal Kyogre and Calyrex-I. Against HO Zygarde can maybe get away with one Coil, but against most other stuff it needs three. Taunt Arceus formes can stall out Thousand Arrows PP even from +1 Zygarde which is ruinous for Glare variants. You can now fit stuff like offensive Ho-Oh which is very good against both sets. Taunt Calm Mind Arceus formes also use Glare sets as setup fodder while Marshadow makes it hesitant to boost more than once. Deoxys-A blows it up as well. Yeah most mons are somewhat weak to some Zygarde set, but I don’t think they are strenuous to cover across a whole team in the same manner as most other top tier Pokémon. Zygarde might be fat, but it relies on Rest for recovery and is immensely exploitable during these turns which means you don’t have to worry about whatever answer getting phased or paralyzed and can easily force it out. Zygarde takes a long time to get the ball rolling and it cannot do that until the opposing team is heavily weakened or key Pokémon are taken out.
More specifically, down to the lead game, none of the anti-leads in the tier (M-Diancie, Taunt users such as Arceus-Dark and Yveltal) like taking a Nuzzle as then they become easy to outspeed and KO by the rest of Smeargle's team, with Smeargle often affording to wait for a Paralysis stun to trigger to keep Sticky Web on the field as it then switches to an ally, while Ground-types like Primal Groudon and Arceus-Ground that may try to get greedy by laying their own hazards are met with a Mortal Spin ruining such plans and removing their longevity.
In the end, Smeargle always makes progress regardless of what the opponent does, and even Substitute sweepers like Zygarde aren't safe either with Perish Song forcing them to switch.
Always making progress is the perfect way to put it. I disagree with Mega Diancie as its main role is going to be preventing webs. It may not want to take a Nuzzle, but if it prevents webs its worth it as actual counterplay are opened up to do their jobs as they're not outsped and taunted by Chi-Yu and Yveltal. I think the Dragon Dance Zygarde dynamic is a good thing as it limits Smeargles moveslots and the most value it is going to get in the webs matchup is effectively functioning as a suicide lead. It gets OHKOed by pretty much everything and using Dragon Tail on the turn it dies for disruption is sadly the best way a lot of the teams it fits on are able to remove webs. I don't think Heat Wave is needed on Yveltal, it is the Tera Fire that is the important part. Heat Wave is just a nice tech from time to time, it beats Arceus-Fairy without it anyways. I agree with the rest of this section.
I would like to share my two cents on Ultra Necrozma.
On paper, it looks like Ultra Necrozma is quite hard to play around, as Bobsican has demonstrated. However, I find it is much easier to deal with in practice. Any team with either Marshadow or Arceus-Dark realistically can handle Ultra Necrozma quite well. The former isn't 2HKO'd at +1 without hazards, and the latter deals at minimum 75% with Shadow Sneak. While it seems like Ultra Necrozma blazes through these so called checks by 2HKOing Arceus-Dark on the switch after hazards and living a Shadow Sneak from Marshadow, it actually still loses to them. Arceus-Dark can ensure that it isn't 2HKO'd by Ultra Necrozma by letting its partner get killed instead, and while both checks can't reliably OHKO Ultra Necrozma, any chip at all changes that, something practically every pokemon in the tier is capable of doing. Against an experienced player with either of these pokemon, Ultra Necrozma will struggle to do more than trade with a pokemon. Ultra Necrozma is still very dangerous, as a player is fully capable of out positioning the checks, but Ultra Necrozma is far from a win at team preview pokemon, and any halfway decent team should be able to handle it.
I agree with Bob's response. I thought that underlining that the issue is Ultra Necrozma's effect in the builder would be sufficient.
I get where you're coming from. Yveltal definitely can feel a bit much at times. That being said, as you know, I don't view it as an issue outside of its synergy with Sticky Webs. It definitely is centralizing, but I do like what it brings to the tier. If GHAZ is a thing now, I don't think many if any bans we could do would change this on a fundamental level. Imo, balance is always going to be Primal Groudon + Fogger + Arceus forme at a minimum and well I guess a Sticky Web ban probably good for Giratina-O stocks given how most Giratina-O / Alomomola structures pretty much autolose (thanks Yveltal!), but the general idea is going to change. I really liked this post even if we don't agree on much. Fwiw Yveltal is one of Zacian-C's very safeish entry points. Yeah its scary, but it doesn't want to switch into much. That much is going to be on every team. For what its worth, just because something is on the survey doesn't mean it is going to get tested. For the most part it means enough people have complained about it to gague people's thoughts. I also think if a team is reliant on Ho-Oh to switch-in against Yveltal it is probably a bad team. It can pivot, but is only worth it scout for the set if you're not sure imo so the proper Yveltal counterplay doesn't take a Toxic early-game.
When changing a metagame, you have to think incredibly carefully about the pros and cons, and just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you should ban it. National Dex Ubers is a great tier that is fairly balanced, but if we aren't careful, we could very well change that here.
I feel like I should clarify that I am not opposed to people wanting to ban any of these Pokemon, even if I disagree. What I am very opposed to is the attitude towards them. A pro ban argument in a tier as good as this should way the pros and cons, and look at what the outcome would be of this decision, instead of saying something is ruining the tier and has to go no matter what. Banning any of these Pokemon, especially Yveltal or Zygarde, could lead to a chain reaction that ends up destabilizing the tier and banning over half a dozen Pokemon, which is something nobody wants. Before even considering banning something, you should make sure you aren't removing the wolves from Yellowstone. To be blunt, nothing about anything cyclone has said makes me think she has even considered any negative impacts this could have.
Y'all have talked about this on discord, but I think its pretty clear she has. She's voicing a valid frustration she has with the tier which is the whole point of the survey and why we encouraged people to discuss their thoughts in this thread. Just because something is on the survey doesn't mean it will automatically get a suspected and then yeeted. I agree that a Zygarde ban would completely destabilize the the tier. It is one of two mons I don't think the tier could recover from losing. Imo if Zygarde was banned we'd probably need about 5 bans afterwards.
Cancel Cult and AM basically said what I think. I really hate this anti-broken-checking-broken attitude that this site has had for years now. I'm sorry but I DO think about the metagame after something goes, and think about the positives and negatives that comes with it. I would go on tirade about how NDOU made decisions that actively hurt the tier but I didn't get reqs for anyone of them. (Notice a pattern? Kingambit > Dragapult > Gholdengo > Zamazenta > Darkrai).
Zygarde is the only one I feel is potentially unhealthy due how hard it is to fit its answers on a team and lot of them lose if the Zygarde is running a different set. Granted by getting rid of Zygarde you open the door to Zacian being able to use its stronger STAB, Marshadow would be harder to deal without the punish of pushing Zygarde under 50, and of course Ekiller would have a field day (NDM would be more viable though). Which is why I am conflicted if its worth it.
If the rammifications of tiering action were not considered and we had an OU level of threshold for what constituted something being banworthy we could have a hell of a lot more bans. But yeah a Zygarde ban probably results in a lot of subsequent bans. I don't think it is worthy of tiering action regardless, but it is something I thought a lot about when I was of the opinion that the Dragon Dance set was unhealthy enough to consider banning Zygarde despite it holding the tier together during the summer.
Actually I think I just talked myself into a new stance. Prior to this I didn't want anything to be banned, although I wouldn't be too upset to see Zacian go. However, I have now come to a conclusion:
We, under no circumstances, must ban both Yveltal and Zygarde-C.
Let me ask you this. If we ban Zygarde and ban Yveltal:
What do we have to check Marshadow?
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon-Primal: 180-214 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Do you realize how bad this is? Without Zygarde or Yveltal, we don't really have a reliable check to Marshadow without tera. Even Eternatus can't really check it with any amount of consistency. Marshadow would become an overwhelming presence that would be impossible to answer with anything currently mainstream.
"Then just ban Marshadow"
Then what? We just banned three of the best Pokemon in the tier. This will alter the meta in ways we cannot predict. We just banned the best user of priority in the game, a crucial member of so many defensive cores, and an incredibly versatile pokemon. Hell, all three of these are some of the most common checks to Ultra Necrozma. Then, would we have to ban Ultra Necrozma? If so, that is a fourth Pokemon we need to ban. Then, without Ultra Necrozma and Marshadow, certain team structures would have a very hard time checking Zacian. If we then ban Zacian, what fills the niche that Zacian and Marshadow used to? The only mainstream fast sweeper/wallbreaker left is Eternatus. This would probably make Eternatus overcentralising. Then, If we ban Eternatus, we just lost arguably the current second best Pokemon, and an incredibly versatile one that many teams rely on. What would be the results of that? We can only speculate, but a loss of the best special attacker in the tier would alter the meta drastically. Perhaps without an easy way to break through it, Giratina-O would become much more used. Thenl, if we ban that, what happens to Primal Groudon? Do you see where I am going with this?
This is a good exercise in what can happen with reckless banning, but it also particularly shows that without Yveltal or Zygarde, things can and probably will spiral out of control fast.
TBH this seems like an exaggeration, Marshadow does not only have Zygarde as a non-Tera reliant switch-in, Regenerator walls like Alomomola and Ho-Oh can come into Marshadow to see what exactly it's choice locked to, then switch to a Ghost resist, the choice lock also means that in an emergency coinflips can be used to play around it, more specifically guessing the move it'll use and switching to a resist. Landorus-T and Salamence can also considerably weaken Marshadow with Intimidate to enable an ally to handle it more easily. The flaws of Poltergeist (discouraging allies from using Knock Off, PP issues, unreliable accuracy in the long term) also hold back Marshadow, making it often use the more reliable yet weaker Spectral Thief instead, so it's not really that broken against well-built Zygarde-less teams in practice, especially if consistency is desired.
As for Yveltal, that gets quickly overwhelmed by Low Kick (more specifically it's OHKOed by Choice Band Low Kick after Stealth Rock), so hard switching is out of the question beyond an use as an emergency check or while knowning it's already locked to a Ghost move.
The changes of a metagame being unpredictable aren't necessarily a bad thing if they'd still lean more to a metagame where the more skilled player wins as well as healthy diversification. In a worst case scenario Chien-Pao, Mega Mewtwo Y, Deoxys-A, and Pheromosa would still remain as fast wallbreakers/sweepers with more glaring flaws to prevent particular concerns, so assuming to a wave of bans that'd reach the point of "the meta has devolved to NDOU" is quite an exaggeration to say the least. In any case, tiering policy is more concerned about the reward for skill and metagame variety/health, rather than merely the metagame one likes more per-say, but if that's what the userbase overall wants then that's fine.
Disappointed the Koraidon propaganda was removed, literally 1984.
On a serious note, I'll go against the grain here and disagree with the general sentiment regarding Ultra Necrozma. Considering this is Ubers, there's historically been a higher threshold for something being banworthy. Yes, I know Ubers is a competitive tier but this seems more like a matter of metagame preference rather than actual brokenness. This is a mon that can be pretty ineffective in-game if its answers are brought, and while the main complaint here is its impact on the builder, I'd argue the amount and efficacy of the counterplay is generally sufficient such that Ultra Necrozma shouldn't be banned - even if the tier may be 'better' without it, this is a really subjective criteria and could be said for a ton of mons. Metagame relevance is a factor, which is why mons like Shaymin-Sky aren't considered for tiering action, but even then it's generally agreed upon that Unecro is just not that good and only fits on one style that, maybe after a potential webs ban, would get noticeably worse.
1. Arceus-Dark isn't some sort of shitmon, far from equivalent to using Clodsire/Treads for Miraidon back in CG SV, and imo the +1 EQ thing is unlikely to be relevant in-game. It's very unlikely Unecro can get to +1 in pristine condition, accounting for hazards, a potential stay-in, etc. Even then, you probably have a revenge killer e.g. Marshadow.
2. Yveltal is imo a top 5 mon right now, and dying to Stone Edge on the switch matters but that's quite a big call-out for a mon that needs to use its turns correctly, really wants to DD, and really wants to Ultra Burst only when necessary. Worst case, you can sack whatever is currently in and bring out Yveltal safely to click Sucker, and against HO, winning the sack war can be very practical. Even if bulky spreads live Sucker, imo Yveltal has discretion to increase attack investment, and Tera Dark on Yveltal is something you generally like doing anyway. Marshadow also exists, and using Tera on that if Unecro is at full HP also isn't the worst thing ever.
3. Tera Dark Eternatus, Ho-oh, Alo, and Arceus-Fairy aren't just good for Unecro, but also improves matchups vs other highly relevant mons such as Yveltal, Arceus-Dark and Marshadow (Arceus-Dark is probably a bigger issue for Marshadow than Arceus-Fairy by making Ghost STAB less spammable).
4. Unecro shouldn't be considered in a vacuum but along with HO as a playstyle. Imo it's similar to Walking Wake in CG SV where the mon itself is disproportionately strong on a style but the style itself has such massive weaknesses that it gets dragged down by proxy. After a webs ban, HO likely gets much worse, so imo suspecting webs should be prioritised over suspecting Unecro.
5. There are more niche means of counterplay, such as Chien-Pao, Booster Flutter, Caly-Ice, Tera Steel Giratina-O, Kingambit, Ditto, Grimmsnarl on Screens, and Lunala (with Shadow Shield) that for obvious reasons aren't really brought up too often but imo worth mentioning nonetheless.
6. There have been comparable mons in the past, where soft counterplay is lacking and hard counterplay is sparse, but said hard counterplay is generally very effective. For example, Xerneas in Gens 7 and 8 is the definition of 'bring 1-2 of 5 mons or instantly lose the game', and people tolerated it - not gen 6 because it was probably broken there. In fact, I don't think I've ever found a single Xerneas complaint in gen 8 post-dynamax. What I'm saying is that there's precedent for builder restricting mons that either 6-0 you or play 5-6 being tolerated in competitively sound Ubers tiers. Interestingly, I'd say Koraidon is the exact opposite, where hard counterplay is generally non-existent but soft counterplay is 'enough' at least for the people back in CG SV.
Banning Unecro, a mon with highly viable hard counterplay, though it may be limited, would be unlike any other ban that any Ubers tier has ever carried out and imo should be treated with more hesitancy.
On a serious note, I'll go against the grain here and disagree with the general sentiment regarding Ultra Necrozma. Considering this is Ubers, there's historically been a higher threshold for something being banworthy. Yes, I know Ubers is a competitive tier but this seems more like a matter of metagame preference rather than actual brokenness. This is a mon that can be pretty ineffective in-game if its answers are brought, and while the main complaint here is its impact on the builder, I'd argue the amount and efficacy of the counterplay is generally sufficient such that Ultra Necrozma shouldn't be banned - even if the tier may be 'better' without it, this is a really subjective criteria and could be said for a ton of mons. Metagame relevance is a factor, which is why mons like Shaymin-Sky aren't considered for tiering action, but even then it's generally agreed upon that Unecro is just not that good and only fits on one style that, maybe after a potential webs ban, would get noticeably worse.
The primary concern isn't that Ultra Necrozma lacks solid counterplay or that it is inconsistent in-game. It is the impact on the builder, more specifically that these options are too limited even when accounting for Ubers' relaxed standards on teambuilding constraints relative to lower tiers. Yes everything will falter when its main counterplay is bought, but amongst the survey subjects Ultra Necrozma is the Pokémon with both the least amount of counterplay and the Pokémon with the least means of bypassing said counterplay. X-Scissor can be used, but this is only useful for teams which otherwise are walled by stall as any of its other coverage options are far more useful.
I do get the point about being ‘limited to one playstyle,’ but at the same time...this is hyper offense rather than a specific archetype. Consequently, Ultra Necrozma has seen around 30-35% use in both tournament and ladder settings for quite some time. It isn’t by any means an uncommon Pokémon. Something like this could apply to Dragon Dance Zygarde which is only really ‘great’ on some bulky offenses, but Ultra Necrozma is too common to simply handwave away given how common hyper offense is in general and its ability to fit on most hyper offense teams.
As you’ve said things have to actually be good and/or used to be considered for tiering action which is why Melmetal and Skymin are not. For example, I’d quite like Shadow Tag and Last Respects banned, but neither have shown to have enough use or consistency to justify tiering action despite my personal opinions.
1. Arceus-Dark isn't some sort of shitmon, far from equivalent to using Clodsire/Treads for Miraidon back in CG SV, and imo the +1 EQ thing is unlikely to be relevant in-game. It's very unlikely Unecro can get to +1 in pristine condition, accounting for hazards, a potential stay-in, etc. Even then, you probably have a revenge killer e.g. Marshadow.
No one is saying Arceus-Dark is a shitmon. A important distinction between this an Miraidon is that taking up the Arceus slot which is a pretty big deal given how valuable this is relative to another random Pokémon. The Arceus slot is immensely valuable and it is doable without relying on solely on Arceus-Dark, but this limits teambuilding far more than just using Arceus-Dark as it near mandates Choice Band Marshadow. Saying you need an Arceus-Dark and Marshadow is indicative that it is too straining imo.
Also it isn’t even any Marshadow, but Choice Band Marshadow as Life Orb gets worn down incredibly quickly to the point it is somewhat easily overwhelmed and should you need it before Ultra Necrozma comes out, any wrong click means it is gone while it doesn't even OHKO Ultra Necrozma even with tera. Ultra Necrozma may not always setup for free, but it very often finds the opportunity to setup without taking a ton of chip. This leads to its common counterplay handling it pretty consistently, but at the same time…shouldn’t your counter be able to switch-in regardless? Stealth Rock being up giving Ultra Necrozma a decent chance to break through Calm Mind Arceus-Dark is problematic to say the least when it is in theory a counter. We don't really have great revenge killers outside of Marshadow. The only viable Choice Scarfer we have is Yveltal which loses to Ultra Necrozma unless it wins a tera mindgame as Stone Edge OHKOes after Stealth Rock and it will be outsped. That speed is also what makes us reliant on priority or defensive checks to handle it.
2. Yveltal is imo a top 5 mon right now, and dying to Stone Edge on the switch matters but that's quite a big call-out for a mon that needs to use its turns correctly, really wants to DD, and really wants to Ultra Burst only when necessary. Worst case, you can sack whatever is currently in and bring out Yveltal safely to click Sucker, and against HO, winning the sack war can be very practical. Even if bulky spreads live Sucker, imo Yveltal has discretion to increase attack investment, and Tera Dark on Yveltal is something you generally like doing anyway. Marshadow also exists, and using Tera on that if Unecro is at full HP also isn't the worst thing ever.
This is what makes me question how much you’ve played the metagame as Yveltal has to invest quite a bit (128 EVs) to get the OHKO on the standard spread and 232 EVs to get the OHKO on the bulkier spread. This is not exactly negligible investment as it significantly decreases the damage of the attacks Yveltal wants to be using – Dark Pulse and Oblivion Wing. The latter is pretty important as Yveltal relies on it a lot to stay healthy and for general wallbreaking purposes.
Gona be honest that Yveltal generally has not liked Tera Dark all that much for quite some time. The damage boost is nice for sure, but Yveltal hits hard enough that it gets much more use out of other tera types. Tera Dark mostly has use for Ultra Necrozma and sometimes Marshadow. On hyper offense it generally wants to be using Tera Fire these days while Tera Flying and Poison have become much more popular on balance and bulky offense. I’m not sure why you don’t see an issue with a supposed Ultra Necrozma ‘counter’ being unable to switch into a move that is on 90% of its sets? If you have to sac something, and then use tera and potentially play Sucker Punch roulette if it is offensive or just tera if it is defensive, this is a huge imbalance in resources used by each team. I agree that using tera on Marshadow isn’t much of an issue as it is so good against hyper offense anyways. I don’t find Yveltal wants to tera nearly often enough to say the same.
3. Tera Dark Eternatus, Ho-oh, Alo, and Arceus-Fairy aren't just good for Unecro, but also improves matchups vs other highly relevant mons such as Yveltal, Arceus-Dark and Marshadow (Arceus-Dark is probably a bigger issue for Marshadow than Arceus-Fairy by making Ghost STAB less spammable).
I think I was the originator of Tera Dark on Alomomola and Arceus-Fairy. Tera Dark Alomomola is something that can work as a last mon scenario because Alomomola barely ever teras anyways and it helps in a pinch. Relying on this as your Ultra Necrozma counterplay is a disaster waiting to happen. Doubly so if you’re using phys def Alomomola as that is likely your primary Zacian-C counterplay. Additionally, none of the Pokémon listed care whether Alomomola pops Tera Dark and Marshadow even welcomes it.
Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy is pretty much just for Ultra Necrozma as the main reason to use it is to beat Ultra Necrozma while maintaining the Dark-type resistance that enables it already beat said Pokémon. It has really fallen off as it only really fits on defensive sets and those have fallen off a fair bit as they suffer from passivity issues. Offensive sets would significantly prefer Tera Poison and even defensive sets would prefer other teras, but use tera infrequently enough that it can afford Tera Dark. I’d also say Arceus-Fairy is a bigger issue for Marshadow as can afford the bulk investment, even on offensive sets, that Areus-Dark can’t. Also Arceus-Fairy can switch-in to Marshadow whereas Arceus-Dark is one Low Kick away from being deleted. Neither are great against Marshadow, but Arceus-Fairy is better.
Eternatus is in a similar boat to Arceus-Fairy in that the sets that can afford Tera Dark are not currently considered to be very good. Neither threaten Ultra Necrozma before it Ultra Bursts, so sacking something that can coax it to Ultra Burst is needed. Ho-Oh is self-sufficient, but without Ultra Necrozma Tera Dark would be considered counterteaming cheese as it has incredibly limited applications (good v psyspam and deo-a and that is kinda it). All three were included in an attempt to avoid the perception of bias, but Tera Dark Ho-Oh is alright at least. None of these Pokémon really want to or benefit from Tera Dark, but can afford it. Additionally, you’re sacking something and using up tera to answer Ultra Necrozma while everything listed now gets deleted by Zacian-C. This is a pretty huge cost considering you could just use Arceus-Dark.
4. Unecro shouldn't be considered in a vacuum but along with HO as a playstyle. Imo it's similar to Walking Wake in CG SV where the mon itself is disproportionately strong on a style but the style itself has such massive weaknesses that it gets dragged down by proxy. After a webs ban, HO likely gets much worse, so imo suspecting webs should be prioritised over suspecting Unecro.
I just loosely follow SVOU, so take my perception of that metagame with a grain of salt, but this does not seem like a great analogy? Until recently Walking Wake had little use outside of sun even if it was amazing on it. In Ultra Necrozma’s case, it was/is a staple on essentially every hyper offense archetype, not just a single one. It isn’t really seen much on Sticky Webs these days as it is outclassed by Chi-Yu, but the archetype still heavily benefits from the constraints that Ultra Necrozma forces in the teambuilder as Chi-Yu pretty easily beats all of Ultra Necrozma’s counterplay. At this point if a suspect test is to happen, I’d prefer that we test Sticky Web, but in a vacuum Ultra Necrozma is a bigger issue. Not looking at things in a vacuum is why I’d agree with you, but I do think regardless of what happens with Sticky Web, Ultra Necrozma should probably get a suspect at some point. Maybe in a metagame without Sticky Web Ultra Necrozma’s softer counterplay would be more viable. Part of the reason why defensive Arceus-Fairy and Eternatus have been on the decline is because of how horrible they are, and often by extension, the teams they fit on, are into Sticky Web structures.
5. There are more niche means of counterplay, such as Chien-Pao, Booster Flutter, Caly-Ice, Tera Steel Giratina-O, Kingambit, Ditto, Grimmsnarl on Screens, and Lunala (with Shadow Shield) that for obvious reasons aren't really brought up too often but imo worth mentioning nonetheless.
Some of these are ok, but others while checking Ultra Necrozma, are so niche that their ability to check Ultra Necrozma shouldn’t be a factor in whether Ultra Necrozma is banworthy or not. Sure Kingambit checks Ultra Necozma (if it is willing to tera), but only fits on a couple of teams and jumps between C- and UR every couple of slates. Flutter Mane runs Life Orb not Booster Energy so it isn’t really an Ultra Necrozma check and is borderline unviable. Ditto does revenge it, but requires a ton of chip to do so which the bulky teams it tends to fit on may have trouble with doing. It isn’t consistent.
Chien-Pao is fair to mention. Tera Steel Giratina-O as well, even if Giratina-O has been on the decline for a bit now. It also wants to be the physical set as the special set needs to status it first. Caly-I requires tera mindgames as +1 Stone Edge OHKOes, but Ultra Necrozma also doesn’t setup for free on it. Lunala is mostly seen using Choice Specs as bulky sets are considered nearly unviable and +1 Light That Burns the Sky OHKOes after Stealth Rock. Gothitelle can be added to this list though as Ultra Necrozma is the one Pokémon on hyper offense teams it isn’t deadweight against.
6. There have been comparable mons in the past, where soft counterplay is lacking and hard counterplay is sparse, but said hard counterplay is generally very effective. For example, Xerneas in Gens 7 and 8 is the definition of 'bring 1-2 of 5 mons or instantly lose the game', and people tolerated it - not gen 6 because it was probably broken there. In fact, I don't think I've ever found a single Xerneas complaint in gen 8 post-dynamax. What I'm saying is that there's precedent for builder restricting mons that either 6-0 you or play 5-6 being tolerated in competitively sound Ubers tiers. Interestingly, I'd say Koraidon is the exact opposite, where hard counterplay is generally non-existent but soft counterplay is 'enough' at least for the people back in CG SV.
Bob mentioned this in one of his posts, but we view NDUbers as a tier first and foremost rather than a banlist. Again, there is a difference between using Necrozma-DM and Arceus-Dark which locks you out of a multitude of other options. Sure the precedent exists, but is it good precedent? It isn't as though other OU generations have decided that Arena Trap is fine to have around solely because it is deemed acceptable in ADV, likewise with Shadow Tag in SSUbers. Additionally, there are so many differences between NDUbers and SVUbers that a lot of stuff just doesn't cleanly translate between the two (the state of entry hazard removal alone is huge before we get into stuff like the availability of Toxic).
I also don't really get the point behind this bullet because having a competitive metagame that includes Ultra Necrozma is clearly possible as we have that now. The question is: is it a healthy one? If so is this dynamic unhealthy enough that tiering action is merited even when accounting for Ubers increased thresholds for these elements? For me the answer is yes, that isn't going to be the answer for everyone. That is the question that needs to be answered with Ultra Necrozma rather than point to the past where the common mentality was the Ubers was a banlist and tiering action should only be taken under extreme circumstances that render it unplayable. As time has progressed, Ubers players have moved towards viewing it as a tier rather than AG with some clauses to allow for a potential metagame. I'd suggest you do the same. You don't have to think Ultra Necrozma is banworthy, but present the reasons for doing so.
Banning Unecro, a mon with highly viable hard counterplay, though it may be limited, would be unlike any other ban that any Ubers tier has ever carried out and imo should be treated with more hesitancy.
Would it? We've banned Xerneas which arguably had more hard counterplay than Ultra Necrozma does. That counterplay also didn't lock you out of the Arceus slot. It isn't as though an Ultra Necrozma suspect is a forgone conclusion. The point of the survey is to gague players opinions about various elements of the metagame. If Ultra Necrozma doesn't receive high scores it won't be suspected. Even if it does receive high scores, a suspect test isn't a guaranteed. I certainly have elements of our metagame I'd like to suspect, but without a decent amount of support...it just isn't happening. It is a waste of everybody's time to suspect something which has little chance of being banned. The survey scores can give us some objective data on how likely this is to happen so we ccan decide how to proceed.
It isn't hard to tell the difference between genuine dumbassery and trolling / ragebaiting. Let's not derail the thread
Edit: This was over the line and not a great look for me. It was meant as a joke, but was inappropriate regardless. I was trying to move the thread back on topic in a funny way. I didn't need to insult Cancel Cult in the process. It was unnecessary and I apologize for that. I shouldn't be making jokes at others expense.
Has anyone tried running Life Orb Weavile with Beat Up and Triple Axel as a counter to Smeargle and Ribombee? Having Ice STAB is also decently valuable when the only real Ice competitors are Calyrex-Ice (mainly Trick Room and loses to many top Pokemon) and Chien-Pao (definitely better than Weavile but no multihit). Weavile can OHKO Kingambit and heavily damage Ekiller Arceus with Low Kick (although Weavile needs to be full HP).
It might just an MU fish lead though, because it needs Terastalization or +Atk nature (outsped by Ribombee + Marshadow) to do significant damage to most neutral targets, and being unable to use Boots means it hates Stealth Rocks in midgame and lategame. It is also very frail and is nearly useless against stall unless you give it Knock Off and Swords Dance.
I will bold the important OHKOs or 2HKOs on neutral targets. Triple Axel usually does do more damage than Beat Up, but its accuracy is questionable, as you only have a 0.729 chance of hitting all three Axels.
Funny calcs:
Beat Up is assuming 108 BP (Weavile + Arceus + Zacian + Groudon + Yveltal + Ho-Oh) 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Beat Up vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 234-277 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Beat Up vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 261-308 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (ez Ice Shard) 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 289-344 (90 - 107.1%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Yveltal: 471-559 (103.5 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 458-541 (134.3 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Beat Up vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 144-172 (42.2 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO (requires 2 Taxels)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Beat Up vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 187-220 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (requires 2 Taxels)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 276-325 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Beat Up vs. 16 HP / 168 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 230-275 (67.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Beat Up vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 168-199 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Giratina-Origin: 439-519 (87.2 - 103.1%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
I started on this post in December when a couple of people decided to load an old Calyrex-I team of mine during the money tournament and it had me thinking about how much the metagame has changed in the time since I made it a year and a half ago. I’m not sure if that team was ever good, but it was at least usable at the time. That hasn’t stopped multiple people from loading it during the money tour and seasonal though. At the time, the Ultra Necrozma matchup was annoying, but manageable. How times have changed.
I did make some headway on this post, but when I looked through my sandbox the other week the last time I touched it was December 21. Nothing in the metagame has technically changed since then, but the way we interact with and perceive it has. Consequently, the way I’d like to approach this subject has as well. I thought it would be fun to revisit the topic of building balance. I made a post on this subject around a year ago shortly after Xerneas was banned. Looking back, it is fairly dated. In the grand scheme of things, the Pokémon themselves have not changed all that much. The sets and compositions certainly have, but most balance teams from last spring and summer wouldn’t look out of place today – at least at team preview. Some new Pokémon and sets may have risen up, but there have not been many drastic changes.
Bobsican recently coined the term ‘GHAZ’ as shorthand for a common defensive core and it has caught on somewhat and only time will tell if the term has legs. When talking with a newer player ‘GHAZ’ implies that there is less flexibility in this core than there actually is. The core does have a decent amount of flexibility, but just slapping these four together with any of their viable sets probably isn’t going to end well. Before getting into ‘GHAZ’ itself, I’d like to point out that ‘GHAZ’ is just the current iteration of an eternal truth about balance in NDUbers: balance structures are overwhelmingly likely to gravitate towards a core of Primal Groudon + Defogger + Arceus forme. The roles are as, if not, more important than the specific Pokémon themselves. ‘GHAZ’ may or may not endure, but the underpinnings certainly will. It is also funny that ordering my teams to easily distinguish them visually resulted in this acronym. It is usually the final few slots on a balance team that are the big differentiators and having them go Primal Groudon / Defogger / Arceus forme / Zygarde (and /or Eternatus) / +2 makes it easy for me without having to open up the teambuilder.
So more specifically, what is GHAZ and why is it popular? GHAZ isn’t limited to this, but some amalgamation of what is on the paste is generally what you’ll see in the current metagame. GHAZ is effective because this core by itself fills most of the essential roles a balance team needs while simultaneously enabling at least a playable matchup into most major archetypes. Additionally, none of these Pokémon are tera hogs with Zygarde coming the closest as it does tend to be tera reliant.
Due to the restrictive nature of certain threats in NDUbers, the role compression provided by this core enables it to support nearly any two last Pokémon while maintaining a reasonable degree of flexibility within the core itself. The last two sets and the small tweaks made to the core to accommodate them enable superficially similar teams to play every differently. Consequently, balance and bulky offense teams utilizing this core are often more varied than those that don’t despite surface level similarities.
The timeless example is how dropping Primal Groudon on balance often results in fatter teams that recycle the same core of 5 Pokémon instead of 4 to replace all the role compression Primal Groudon provides in a single slot. These teams are not by any means bad, I just think that a lot of attention that the GHAZ core receives is a bit overblown. Furthermore, this isn’t exclusive to balance as most hyper offense structures these days are similarly repetitive as they can often be boiled down to Lead + Yveltal + Arceus forme + Zacian-C + Z-move user (usually Ultra Necrozma or Chi-Yu). Ultimately, the ‘core metagame’ for lack of a better phrase, consists of around 20 Pokémon so this level of overlap isn’t surprising. This dynamic is inherent to Ubers tiers and not something we can realistically change via tiering action. Lets look at the individual members of the core.
Primal Groudon
Primal Groudon remains as mandatory as ever. That condition is for the pedants. The defensive role compression Primal Groudon provides in a single slot is irreplaceable. There are good fat balances that exist without Primal Groudon, but by virtue of having to spread the defensive roles normally filled by Primal Groudon across multiple they are intensely limited structurally. This is most obvious when it comes to defensively handling Primal Kyogre as most of these teams dedicate two slots to checking it as most counterplay is not capable of handling both offensive and defensive sets. However, this is largely waffling. Primal Groudon being nigh mandatory is something somebody with only a passing familiarity of the metagames in which it is legal could tell you. So what sets is it running and how have those changed over the last year, if at all?
Last spring Primal Groudon was largely locked into defensive sets with SD Utility being good, but difficult to fit. This resulted in Primal Groudon having a rigidity both in the builder and in game that felt akin to a necessary evil rather than the immensely flexible Pokémon that it is. Defensive Primal Groudon remains the bread and butter but has undergone a lot of changes under the hood. This is most evident on Alomomola structures that more easily fit setup or more aggressive variants of Primal Groudon.
Ultimately, Primal Groudon is easily moulded to meet your teams’ specific requirements as long as it can check Zacian-C and Primal Kyogre defensively. This means starting with 248 HP / 40+ Def / 40 SpD, but that leaves a lot of room for flexibility to tailor its EV spread to suit your teams specific needs. I've put ones I've considered or used in the past few months in the spoiler below. It would otherwise take up way too much space.
Offensive Investment
Set(s)
Investment
Reason
Outcome
Defensive
44 Atk
Precipice Blades OHKOes after Stealth Rock + a single layer of Spikes
Utility SD
48 Atk
Stone Edge OHKOes after Stealth Rock
Utility SD / Defensive
52 Atk
Precipice Blades OHKOes defensive Eternatus after Stealth Rock
Utility SD / Defensive
60 Atk
Precipice Blades 2HKOes defensive Primal Kyogre after Stealth Rock
Utility SD / Defensive
76 Atk
Precipice Blades 2HKOes 248 HP / 4 Def Arceus formes after Stealth Rock
Utility SD
88 Atk
Precipice Blades OHKOes -1 Tera Fighting Zacian-C after Stealth Rock
Utility SD
136 Atk
Precipice Blades OHKOes Marshadow after a single layer of Spikes
Defensive
60 SpA
Overheat OHKOes specially offensive Yveltal after one round of Life Orb Chip
Phyiscal Hits
Set(s)
Investment
Reason
Outcome
Rock Polish
248 HP / 40+ Def
Survives +1 Tera Blast Ground after Stealth Rock + 1 Layer of Spikes
Defensive / Utility SD / Rock Polish
248 HP / 40+ Def
Survives Choice Band Tera Flying Dragon Ascent after Stealth Rock + 1 layer of Spikes
Defensive / Utility SD / Rock Polish
248 HP / 48+ Def
Survives +2 Tera Blast Ground
Defensive / Utility SD
252 HP / 56+ Def
Survives Choice Band Tera Ice Glacial Lance after Stealth Rock
Defensive / Utility SD
248 HP / 92+ Def
Survives +1 216+ Tera Ground Thousand Arrows after Stealth Rock
Defensive / Utility SD
248 HP / 96+ Def
Choice Band Poltergeist 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
Defensive / Utility SD
248 HP / 136+ Def
Survives +1 252+ Atk Earthquake after 1 layer of Spikes
Defensive / Utility SD
248 HP / 140+ Def
Survives +3 Tera Fighting Close Combat after 1 layer of Spikes
Defensive
248 HP / 148+ Def
+1 uninvested Thousand Arrows 3HKOes after 6.25% Stealth Rock
Defensive
248 HP / 152+ Def
Survives +2 Tera Blast Ground after 6.25% Stealth Rock
Defensive
248 HP / 152+ Def
Survives 300 BP Last Respects after 6.25% Stealth Rock
Special Hits
Set(s)
Investment
Reason
Outcome
SD Utility / Defensive
248 HP / 40 SpD
0 SpA Ice Beam 4HKOes
SD Utility / Defensive
248 HP / 76 SpD
Survives Tera Ghost Choice Specs Moongeist Beam
SD Utility / Defensive
248 HP / 84 SpD
0 SpA Dynamax Cannon 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
SD Utility / Defensive
248 HP / 92 SpD
Survives Choice Specs Draco Meteor
SD Utility / Defensive
248 HP / 92 SpD
Tera Dark Dark Pulse 2HKOes after Stealth Rock
Defensive
248 HP / 112 SpD
+1 16 SpA Judgment 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
Defensive
248 HP / 120 SpD
Survives +1 Tera Dragon Dynamax Cannon
Defensive
248 HP / 168 SpD
8+ Draco Meteor 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
Defensive
248 HP / 192 SpD
Survives Life Orb Psycho Boost
Speed
Set(s)
Investment
Reason
Outcome
Defensive / Utility SD (No Overheat)
12 Spe
Outspeeds paralyzed Zacian-C
Defensive / Utility SD (Overheat)
16- Spe
Outspeeds paralyzed Eternatus
Defensive Rock Polish (No Overheat)
20 Spe
Outspeeds Pheromosa at +2
Defensive / Utility SD
44 Spe
Outspeeds uninvested Zygarde-C
Defensive / Utility SD
52 Spe
Outspeeds -1 342 Speed Arceus formes
Defensive Rock Polish (Overheat)
120-Spe
Outspeeds Pheromosa after Rock Polish
EVing Primal Groudon is simultaneously frustrating and a fun challenge. The standard defensive spread is fine, but I do frequently find more often than not that the 192 SpD ends up being superfluous. Surviving Deoxys-A’s Psycho Boost is nice, but it is also something that rarely comes up and is more of an on-paper benefit. If this investment made a difference for +1 Primal Kyogre I’d say it is worthwhile, but it doesn’t and Primal Groudon puts every spare EV to good use. For example, removing the roll from Zacian-C’s +3 Tera Fighting Close Combat after a layer of Spikes is often more useful than the Deoxys-A benchmark. Furthermore, this leaves it with enough SpD EVs to survive Eternatus’s +1 Tera Dragon Dynamax Cannon. A little goes a long way with Primal Groudon and the world is your oyster.
We’ve also been seeing flexibility when it comes to Primal Groudon’s moves as well. The most notable has been 3A + entry hazard sets picking up a bit of steam with Rock Tomb replacing Toxic. Toxic is probably a top 3 move in the game, but on Primal Groudon Rock Tomb’s utility a boon for teams that are otherwise fairly secure against Giratina-O structures and stall. I’m not a huge fan of phasing moves on Primal Groudon, but they probably should be used more often than they are. So long as Primal Groudon covers the necessities it can make just about anything work. It is the best Pokémon in the tier for a reason.
Entry Hazard Removal
While entry hazard removal may not be technically mandatory, but it functionally is. While we may have an abundance of options on paper, realistically most teams are limited to two: Ho-Oh and Giratina-O. Options beyond these do exist, but these Pokémon are severely flawed or unviable in this role.
Since the last time I made a post on this topic, Giratina-O has had a massive rise and a significant fall since that time. On balance, Giratina-O is rarely seen without its fishy friend to help offset its lack of recovery. Lately, I’ve not been a fan of Giratina-O balances outside of a couple of Bobsican’s teams which tend to veer more towards semistall than balance.
This is because Giratina-O kind of sucks at keeping entry hazards off long term as it doesn’t matchup all that well into our entry hazard setters even with Wish support. It may wall Primal Groudon, but switching in on a Toxic flips the script while Ferrothorn just Leech Seeds it and becomes immortal. You might only need to remove entry hazards once against hyper offense structures, but the only good matchup it has is against Glimmora and that is only if it is the special set with Thunder Wave and more of a trade.
The issue is the difficulty in finding the turn to remove the entry hazards. This is most present against Sticky Web structures which rose in popularity in part due to how easily they steamroll the Giratina-O + Alomomola structures. I’m really not sure if the Sticky Web issue is solvable which is a damn shame given Giratina-O + Alomomola structures have at least a playable matchup into nearly everything else. Such a piss poor matchup into an archetype which is not only good, but incredibly common has dissuaded me from Giratina-O + Alomomola structures. You’re starting with Primal Groudon + Giratina-O + Arceus forme + Alomomola which leaving only two moveslots and one of these will likely go to Dragon Dance Zygarde or Eternatus. Icy Wind Fezandipiti can somewhat solve the Sticky Web issue, but you’re still essentially sacrificing Giratina-O + another Pokémon. Giratina-O certainly has its positives, but the metagame developing in a way which exacerbates Giratina-O's flaws has soured me on it and it rarely feels worth the effort.
Ho-Oh has retained its spot as the preeminent Defogger, but much has changed since the spring. As with most other Pokémon, Ho-Oh has had to adapt with evolving metagame. Fortunately, it has done so with aplomb and remains one of the most splashable Pokémon in the metagame – even reaching about 50% use in tournament. Defensive Ho-Oh may be an immortal phoenix capable of at least soft checking the majority of the metagame, but has been conspicuously absent outside of stall for quite some time now. Why? Sacred Fire + Toxic may be a pain to switch into and phasing is as valuable as ever.
Well it doesn’t really matter if you wall everything if you lack the ability to threaten much in return given defensive Ho-Oh’s penchant for passivity. Consequently, sets such as Dragon Dance Zygarde, Taunt Calm Mind Arceus formes, and wallbreaker Eternatus rose to the forefront of the metagame due to how easily they exploit defensive Ho-Oh. Defensive Ho-Oh is not unusable on balance, but chucking it on a team mindlessly is more likely than not to burn you.
Ho-Oh’s defensive profile is nigh irreplaceable on balance. It would be a fool’s errand to pretend otherwise so rather than attempt to do the impossible, most players have shifted to offensive sets and the translation has been seamless. Rather than rely on teammates to handle most scary threats, offensive Ho-Oh says fuck it I’ll do it myself and is shockingly difficult to switch into when it reminds the world that it has 130 Attack and great STABs. This allows it to actually Defog against Sticky Webs and beat Pokémon looking to exploit defensive Ho-Oh’s passivity.
The decreased physical bulk mainly impacts the Zacian-C matchup. You can’t win em all, but offensive Ho-Oh is one of the better Dragon Dance Zygarde checks with Tera Grass or a slept on wallbreaker with Tera Flying. Tera Dark also allows some teams to function. The last move is flexible, but I’m not a big fan of Earthquake or Tera Ground as even with this significant expenditure of resources Earthquake has middling damage. I do wonder if Ho-Oh is peaking and firmly consider it to be the third best Pokémon.
The Arceus Slot
It is possible, albeit immensely difficult, to make a balance without Arceus. Bob might manage without Primal Groudon, but even he has been including an Arceus forme on some of his squads recently. The question isn’t if an Arceus forme should be included, but which one? We may have eight viable Arceus formes, but most balance structures are really deciding between two most of the time – Dark and Fairy. This is the culmination metagame trends favouring a more specialized approach against oppressive Pokémon such as Ultra Necrozma and Yveltal as opposed to a more generalist approach with a slightly higher floor. Ultimately, the options for dealing with a lot of the biggest threats to balance teams are quite limited outside of the Arceus slot and finding this counterplay elsewhere imposes significant structural limitations and/or overreliance on tera which often leads to consistency issues. The Arceus metagame has not only seen a shift in formes, but also EV spreads and sets. Lets get into what Arceus on balance currently looks like. As with Primal Groudon, the spoiler below contains some relevant EV benchmarks.
Physical Defense
Investment
Reason
Outcome
248 HP / 4 Def
Survives Choice Band Glacial Lance after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 68 Def
112 Atk Precipice Blades 3HKOs
248 HP / 68 Def
Survives Tera Ghost Choice Band Poltergeist after Stealth Rock + 1 layer of Spikes
248 HP / 88 Def
Offensive Ho-Oh Brave Bird 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 104 Def
Survives +1 Double-Edge after Stealth Rock
Special Defense
Investment
Reason
Outcome
248 HP / 32 SpD
Survives 252 Spa Light That Burns the Sky after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 36 SpD
Survives Tera Ghost Choice Specs Lunala Moongeist Beam after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 48 SpD
Life Orb Yveltal’s Oblivion Wing 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 52 SpD
Tera Flying Yveltal Oblivion Wing 3HKOes
248 HP / 88 SpD
130 BP 8+ SpA Hex 3HKOes
248 HP / 104 SpD
Survives Meteor Beam -> +1 Dynamax Cannon
248 HP / 140 SpD
+1 Eternatus Fire Blast 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
I’ve been glazing Calm Mind Arceus-Dark for a while, but what really surprised me during NDBD was the amount of effort I had to put in to not use it. It isn’t just that I consider it the only reliable defensive Ultra Necrozma check. It is a specially offensive Life Orb counter (assuming webs are not up) that doesn’t care if it pops Tera Fire. It doesn’t require a boatload of support to break through Ho-Oh which makes it an incredibly consistent win condition. It also isn’t pressured to tera nearly as often as other Arceus formes. The biggest thing is that most of the criticisms I could make of Arceus-Dark would also apply to other Arceus formes, but they tend to lack at least one of the consistency, self-sufficiency, or role compression that Arceus-Dark provides.
It is the most used Arceus forme for good reason. A balance without Arceus-Dark isn’t bad, but it is so much easier to make a good one with it. This is to a degree that I often feel that Arceus-Dark quasi provides an additional slot in the teambuilder due to how easy its flaws are to cover. Arceus-Dark isn’t by any means broken or even problematic – it is simply good. However, a significant portion of this is a result of the metagame surrounding it. We had to delay our sample update due to approving too many Arceus-Dark teams. We had approved 8 and wanted to cut that in half. Furthermore, there were a few Pokémon and sets that we wanted to include, but ran into roadblocks because most of the teams that included these also included a Taunt Calm Mind Arceus-Dark. If that doesn't say enough I don't know what does.
Arceus-Fairy has always been in a bit of a weird spot due to its polarizing matchup with the top-tier Pokémon as it either goobs or is goobed. The difficulty of answering many of the Pokémon Arceus-Fairy does well against in conjunction with the relative ease of handling those that it doesn’t has resulted in it being regarded as a top-tier Pokémon. Arceus-Fairy’s issues have and always will exist. Furthermore, most of them are at least reasonably manageable. However, as the metagame has continued to develop it has become increasingly hostile to Arceus-Fairy. This has led to it, in my opinion, shifting from a great Pokémon to a good one. There are a few reasons for this so lets look at why.
The first is quite simple: Arceus-Fairy isn’t Arceus-Dark. Arceus-Fairy certainly benefits from the prevalence of Arceus-Dark, but there is an Ultra Necrozma sized reason Arceus-Dark is the de facto choice. Consequently, it has almost become second nature for me to add Choice Band Marshadow alongside Arceus-Fairy in the teambuilder. A lot of Arceus-Fairy structures probably want Marshadow anyways but being forced into it rarely pleasant. Tera Dark on some Pokémon is doable, but making a team which can reliably afford to allow that Pokémon to tera against most Ultra Necrozma structures without being too vulnerable to other stuff is a headache and still has consistency issues. Marshadow doesn’t and a lot of the time it is much easier to simply use that. In contrast, Marshadow is still great on Arceus-Dark teams, but they are not heavily pressured to use it. Furthermore, Arceus-Fairy ironically has an arguably worse Yveltal matchup than Arceus-Dark. Yveltal beats both when Sticky Web is up, but Tera Fire means Arceus-Fairy tickles it while Tera Flying can muscle through defensive sets. The ability to immediately threaten Yveltal is appreciated, but this dynamic can be frustrating.
The other big thing is Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM. Why exactly the ladder seems allergic to this set is beyond me, but it does see a reasonable amount of use in tournament. Its efficacy in punching holes in the sorts of structures that Arceus-Fairy fits on makes it a huge threat. Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM may beat both Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Fairy, but only the latter gives it free opportunities to switch-in. This puts a fair bit of stress throughout the rest of the team as the primary counterplay balance has are Defensive Overheat Primal Groudon and Tera Water Coil Zygarde. Primal Groudon is more of a it can trade, but might need its HP for something else whereas Coil Water Zygarde without something like defensive Primal Kyogre makes Tera Water Zygarde hard to fit. There is also Fairy-type resistances being far more common than Dark-type resistances in this metagame and Arceus-Dark can easily boost past some of those anyways. These issues are all solvable, but the effort required to address Arceus-Fairy’s flaws is substantially higher than one would expect from an A+ Pokémon. So what is Arceus-Fairy bringing to the table to compensate?
A significant positive is how Arceus-Fairy benefits from the presence of Arceus-Dark and some ripple effects it has on the metagame. In a Calm Mind war Arceus-Fairy is obviously favoured as even an expenditure of tera results in a stalemate. Tera Fairy is also common on Pokémon such as Eternatus, Dondozo, and Coil Zygarde. Neither Pokémon run Tera Fairy for Arceus-Dark, but it is something they appreciate. In contrast, Arceus-Fairy completely shuts down Dragon Tail variants of Coil Zygarde while having a better matchup into wallbreaker and Tera Dragon Meteor Beam Eternatus. Although it lacks a Ghost-type resistance, it also doesn’t risk its life switching in. Neither Arceus forme beats Marshadow and rely on Coil Zygarde as proper counterplay, but Arceus-Fairy has a significantly better matchup on paper and in game. It also much better into niche Pokémon such as Mega Diancie, Garganacl, and Pheromosa.
The last thing is that support Arceus-Fairy is generally significantly better than support Arceus-Dark. Stealth Rock Arceus-Fairy is no longer great, but Wisp sets are still decent enough. In contrast, defensive Arceus-Dark outside of stall is incredibly specific and not something I’m a big fan of outside of select bulky offense structures to help fill the defensive holes that arise when using Dragon Dance Zygarde or that Deoxys-A + Chien-Pao pivotspam fat balance Bob made. Is Arceus-Fairy great? I don’t think so, but I do think it is still good. It just often takes a fair amount of time and effort to make a good Arceus-Fairy team these days compared to Arceus-Dark which can be thrown on just about anything that isn’t hyper offense.
Arceus-Grass and Arceus-Rock featured in the thumbnail because I genuinely like them more than Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Water. They’re both niche and only fit on a couple of structures, but they both do their jobs remarkably consistently and consistency is something I value highly. I’d give them their own section, but there isn’t all that much to say about either of them and this is already going to be long enough.
I just really am not a fan of either Arceus-Ground or Arceus-Water. Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground is still good on offensive structures, but this is a post about balance. My contention with these two isn’t just one thing either, but an amalgamation of traits which frequently leaves me disappointed regardless of what set or tech they can fit. These two are peas in a pod have always had a more generalist approach that found success due to a high floor at the cost of a lower ceiling in past metagames. As time has progressed, metagame trends have harshly punished this playstyle as the Arceus slot has grown increasingly important for defensively handling more specific threats which neither Arceus-Ground or -Water can do due to a dearth of relevant resistances.
For example, Arceus-Water might have the ability to 1v1 specially offensive Yveltal, but this doesn’t matter if you lose when you switch-in. Primal Kyogre is so powerful it makes us forget that Water is a mediocre offensive type in NDUbers and the main target – Ho-Oh usually runs Tera Grass anyways. Speaking of – gotta love your Water resistance getting deleted by wallbreaker Primal Kyogre. Primal Groudon is the easiest of Arceus-Water’s issues, it is the team support it requires for everything else.
Arceus-Ground is in a similar boat, but at least some sets will absolutely goob with the right matchup. It does still have many of the same defensive issues of not really resisting anything relevant. The root problem is the same in that they have so many gaps when running mono-Judgment sets that this means giving up an incredibly valuable moveslot for coverage or putting ton of stress on teammates to cover these weaknesses. Arceus-Dark and -Fairy offer so much more defensively which lets them turn that into offense. Useable teams with both Arceus-Ground and -Water exist, but it has been a long time since I’ve seen one I liked with either. It certainly does feel weird to call them washed instead of overrated though.
Serpentine Headaches
I might use Zygarde on nearly every team, but I’m perfectly aware that it can be immensely frustrating to play against at times. However, I do think that often that this is a teambuilding issue and sometimes a skill issue where people seem to take unnecessary risks against it. If one Pokémon getting Glared means you lose to Zygarde, that is probably a sign of a flawed or bad team. The yellow magic is certainly capable of its own brand of tomfoolery, but this is rarer than it would seem and missing Precipice Blades or any of the other inaccurate moves we rely on cost games far more frequently. At the end of the day every playstyle has ample means to handle Zygarde and sometimes it is a bit of a team effort.
Coil Zygarde is a massive part of what allows balance to exist. Zygarde’s capabilities as a blanket physical wall is great, but it is really its ability to counter specific Pokémon that makes it tick – namely Primal Groudon and Marshadow. With Tera this includes other Pokémon such as Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM and Dragon Dance Zygarde. Simply put, without Coil Zygarde most balance teams and the playstyle would have serious concerns regarding its viability due to how easily the defensive backbone crumples as it would have to rely on a patchwork of situational checks.
Dragon Dance has some unhealthy aspects, but I don’t think they rise to anywhere near banworthy. It barely fits on balance to begin with and slapping it on a balance team in place of Coil Zygarde reinvigorates appreciation for the defensive value of Coil Zygarde. Even on the physical side it not impenetrable. Most special attackers also can blow or boost past Zygarde with relative ease. Zygarde cannot do everything at once and most teams can afford to scout or make a mistake unlike other top threats.
Archetypes
Alomomola Balance
R8 originally put Alomomola on the map and to say its stocks have skyrocketed since then since then would be an understatement. Over the course of the year Alomomola proved that it was not a gimmick and anchored structures across the spectrum from bulky offense to semistall. Alomomola doesn’t check much itself, but its Wishes provided many Pokémon – most notably Primal Groudon and Giratina-O – with actual longevity. Alomomola doesn’t make its teammates immortal, but it does mitigate passive counterplay and incentivises firmer counterplay.
The ‘standard’ Alomomola structure, with the exception of Bob’s semistalls, is Primal Groudon + Giratina-O + Arceus + 2. Alomomola providing the metagame with an actual good pivot for the first time Koraidon was legal enabled a lot of Pokémon and/or sets that had massive on paper potential, but had difficulty translating this into in-game success such as Chien-Pao, Choice Specs Eternatus, and Deoxys-A. Alomomola structures surged in popularity due to providing a playable matchup against most archetypes.
Most – not all most Alomomola structures notoriously struggle against Sticky Web and their surge to the top of the metagame is not a coincidence where they’ve remained since. This isn’t the only thing they struggle with, but it is important given it has been the most popular form of hyper offense in both ladder and tournament settings for over half a year.
Alomomola structures employ a pivot heavy playstyle where opposing threats are whittled down into range for a setup sweeper or powerful breaker to clean up. They are not the speediest of teams, but usually have a fast and frail Pokémon to compress the roles of wallbreaking and anti-offense. However, as these teams often rely on Giratina-O as removal, Sticky Webs are nearly impossible to remove due to Yveltal which is a massive threat itself and Pokémon such as Chi-Yu feast on the wreckage.
I’m not sure exactly how Alomomola team are able to crack this nut. Bob has paired it with Icy Wind Fezandipiti, but these teams are semistalls or close to it rather than the more balanced structures that Alomomola initially saw success on. Giratina-O can be replaced with an alternate Defogger such as offensive Ho-Oh, but then Swords Dance Primal Groudon becomes a much bigger issue given that Zygarde is uncommon on Alomomola structures and is usually Dragon Dance. There is also the question of whether Alomomola provides enough support to the team to justify an entire slot. The synergy with Giratina-O is impeccable, but Ho-Oh doesn’t benefit significantly from Wish support while Choice Scarf Yveltal hasn’t shown to be a great partner.
The thing is…it really mostly just is webs holding back Alomomola structures, but at the same time…webs are common and good enough to make loading Alomomola feel like a bit of a fish (pun unintended) despite decent matchups into much of the metagame. Maybe someone will figure it out, but right now I’m not sure how many people are still experimenting with Alomomola outside of Bobsican.
Fezandipiti Balance
When I made the post last Spring Alomomola balances were the shiny new toy showing a lot of promise and nobody had considered Fezandipiti. I first thought about it in July, but didn’t do anything with the idea and a month later Adem + R8 started messing around with it. At some point I quipped about it in the NDUbers cord which spent Adem spiralling trying to figure out who leaked it which was and is still hilarious. As a whole, Fezandipiti should be seen as a group effort as Adem + R8 discovered Acid Spray and I discovered Icy Wind. Adem asked me to keep it quiet until after NDPL as it was her ‘secret weapon’ and would write a post about then. It didn’t end up being used and after some time and a bit of nudging I ended up making the VR nom. Bob then brought up Utility Umbrella and here we are.
Fezandipiti hasn’t seen the surge in use that Alomomola structures have, but I’ve been surprised by the use they have seen. I’m not sure if Fezandipiti is currently meta, anti-meta, or somewhere in between. Nonetheless, people haphazardly throwing it on teams without concerns for its flaws does speak its perceived legitimacy amongst our playerbase.
Fezandipiti is a great Pokémon, but without providing an appropriate level of support, the defensive cores it supplements are surprisingly easy to crack. Bob seems to have adopted Fezandipiti as his new pet project, but a lot of these are semistalls rather than balances so they’re beyond the scope of this post. However, I would like to note that his double pivot double breaker balance is one of my favourite recently created teams. So, what does a typical Fezandipiti balance look like and why is it good?
I built a lot of Fezandipiti teams during NDBD and unsurprisingly, it works best alongside the ‘GHAZ’ core. The original Fezandipiti team had Deoxys-A as a strong breaker and Speed control with Tera Ghost because the team is otherwise quite weak to Ekiller, but you can use Tera Ghost on Ho-Oh or something if you are using another breaker. The main variation in Fezandipiti teams is what breaker it is supporting because it can support just about any of them due to Icy Wind. The same interaction is what enables it to facilitate the easy removal of Sticky Web.
Fezandipiti’s ability to stonewall most of the special metagame is great, but parlaying this into consistent removal is what makes it go from decent shitmon to great. Fezandipiti’s primary concern is physical attackers and it just isn’t possible to be secure against them all. Exactly which one causes the most issues is going to depend on the breaker being supported and Zygarde’s Tera. If Zygarde is Tera Fairy Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM is probably going to goob, but if it is Tera Water Dragon Dance Zygarde is likely incredibly annoying. Tera Normal Double Edge Ekiller is scary as well, but Chillian Berry Dragon Tail Zygarde is an option. Fezandipiti structures are fun, yet underexplored. I have not seen many bulky offenses utilize it yet and I think it would fit on a few of those structures. Fezandipiti just has the perfect set of attritubutes to succeed in this metagame. The bird is the word.
Hazard Stack Balance
If you took a gander at the hazard stacks loaded a year ago few have aged well and even less could be described as good. Hazard stack itself is still decent, but has been forced to adapt with the times. Long gone are the days where simply putting up a Toxic Spike against hyper offense teams essentially won the game. The metagame has not been conducive to simply littering the field and waiting for the passive damage to accumulate for quite some time. Hazard stacking as an archetype is decent, but requires far more proactive Pokémon and gameplay to succeed.
Not only do we have decent hazard control, but there are a plethora of Pokémon and sets that harshly punish lackadaisical and passive gameplay. Consequently, we’ve seen Pokémon such as Garganacl rise up as Salt Cure forces progress while providing a wincon with IDBP and Ferrothorn has risen up again as the premier Spikes user due to its ability to force progress with Knock Off while allowing Primal Groudon to use Stealth Rock instead of being a crappy Spikes setter. Additionally, I think that hazard stack balance is likely the most underdeveloped archetype in the current metagame. This is primarily because it hasn’t really been explored a ton due to a lack of interest, but I’m sure some burgeoning player could revolutionize the archetype. Who knows what the future of hazard stack looks like, but it will probably be focused around picking two entry hazards as the metagame is a little too fast paced for teams with all three to have consistency even if they somehow avoid passivity.
Rounding things out
Marshadow may technically have three sets, but Choice Band is the only one that really matters. Bulk Up is decent and AoA has a place, but I’m not a huge fan of either and neither are great fits on balance anyways. I’ve continually be surprised how Marshadow not only manages to keep its place in the top echelon of Pokémon, but seemingly gets slightly better as time progresses. It does this with the minimal of defensive utility. It doesn’t have much bulk, but does at least live a few important attacks that give it some wiggle room unlike Deoxys-A. The Normal-type immunity is as important as ever given the popularity of Tera Normal Double-Edge Ekiller due to its great matchup into the ‘GHAZ’ core.
A well-played Marshadow is one of the scariest Pokémon for nearly any team except stall to face given the limited long-term answers outside of Coil Zygarde. It 2HKOes everything and the only other counter in Tera Fairy Garganacl wants to find an opening to tera before Marshadow comes out given it is OHKOed by Low Kick. Physically defensive Alomomola is a usable stopgap, but is 2HKOed by Tera Ghost Poltergeist and Rocky Helmet variants are 2HKOed by Tera Ghost Spectral Thief after Stealth Rock. For most balance teams, Coil Zygarde is going to be the only real option. Additionally, Marshadow (alongside Zacian-C) is a big reason why I think people should be more willing to use Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground on their hyper offense teams as its bulk makes it less vulnerable to Shadow Sneak revenge attempts.
Marshadow is Primal Groudon-esque in that it provides so much role compression that it is likely to be doing something important in most battles. It enables teams to deviate away from Arceus-Dark with a clean conscience due to being able to OHKO Ultra Necrozma with Tera Ghost Shadow Sneak. There is of course the Ekiller matchup, but also the ability to pick off most Pokémon from decently high HP with Shadow Sneak. Against bulky offense and balance teams it serves as a top tier breaker due to its ability to blanket check Calm Mind Arceus formes. Sure Arceus-Dark might resist Spectral Thief, but it if teras to avoid Low Kick it is 2HKOed by Tera Ghost Spectral Thief just like the other Arceus formes. It limits wallbreaker Primal Kyogre as well given that Tera Ghost Poltergeist OHKOes and Spectral Thief does the same after Rocks. Furthermore, it benefits from Zacian-C opting for Behemoth Blade more often these days at that doesn’t OHKO if the boost is lost and Tera Ghost Poltergeist OHKOes after Stealth Rock.
All in all, Marshadow is just the perfect offensive package in one slot. It keeps things honest whilst being honest itself. Sure it may be walled by Coil Zygarde, but that is pretty easy to handle and Marshadow dissuades it from greedily boosting to a point where it can be an offensive threat. It isn’t essential in the way ‘GHAZ’ is for balance but compliments those structures incredibly well and is essential for many that deviate from it.
Primal Kyogre somehow feels perpetually underrated – at least the defensive set. Offensive Primal Kyogre is a demon, but isn’t a great fit on many balances structures due to the poor hyper offense matchup. Defensive Primal Kyogre is something I deviate away from for a bit before using it again and forget just how amazing it is. It is a high floor / highish ceiling Pokémon that will provide some sort of important value in most matchups. Funnily enough, its worst matchups are probably against Fezandipiti and Alomomola balances as opposed to hyper offense.
Against hyper offense Primal Kyogre often trades against something that would otherwise be incredibly annoying for the rest of the team to deal with. This may be a suicide lead, but it also trades with Yveltal while denying Zacian-C and Ekiller free setup. It is also great against fringe archetypes such as Psyspam and Trick Room. Defensive Primal Kyogre is just a great anti-cheese Pokémon in general.
It does have a few defensive traits that are often overlooked such as its good matchup against both Dragon Dance and Coil Zygarde while also being good against Pokémon such as Deoxys-A and Calyrex-I. It also annoys Calm Mind Arceus formes and can use wallbreaker or defensive Eternatus as a setup opportunity. There is, of course, the god tier matchup against stall and generally being decent into fat structures. Defensive Primal Kyogre is not a flashy Pokémon, but it is nearly always a good one.
Eternatus is a weird one. For a while I’d when talking about balance cores I’d say ‘and at least one of Zygarde or Eternatus’. I didn’t feel that Eternatus was a highly necessary part of balance cores, but chalked that up to my own biases and teambuilding preferences. Eternatus is an excellent Pokémon, but on balance these days I consider it more of an auxiliary option rather than a staple. Even then, that is mostly the wallbreaker set.
Defensive Eternatus is between a rock and a hard place. In previous metagames simply spitting out a Toxic Spike against hyper offense teams was enough value in an otherwise poor matchup. The value of this is heavily diminished given the prevalence of Eternatus itself on said structures. Defensive Eternatus has always had 4MSS, but never has it felt such a burden to account for. Unfortunately, this dynamic extends to nearly every aspect of the set. It can trade with Yveltal, but requires Heavy-Duty Boots to do so, but the longevity is sorely missed in other matchups. It should be a decent Marshadow check, but outspeeding Marshadow does not leave it with enough bulk to switch-in and this is felt in other matchups. If Eternatus is bulky, it pressures Marshadow to tera, but loses anyways and is now complete setup fodder for Taunt Calm Mind Arceus formes. If you’re running Flamethrower you also probably want 40 SpA to 2HKO Zacian-C, further stretching an already thin resource.
There are issues beyond this, but the result is an exodus of defensive Eternatus sets on structures where it was previously a staple. It is a parallel to the Arceus saga where it generally isn’t enough to not be bad, you need to be good as well. Fezandipiti existing doesn’t exactly help matters either. Wallbreaker is still good on balance, but often feels like a luxury instead of a necessity. It isn’t hard to fit, but you also need to want to fit it. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some defensive Eternatus set out there waiting to be discovered, but for now I’ll likely stick to offensive sets, even when using Toxic Spikes.
Changing Things Up
I do think all of these Pokémon are good, but they also have flaws that need to be accounted for. Chucking them on a team haphazardly will likely not end well, but they result in very good teams if given the appropriate support.
Choice Specs Lunala was and always will be an incredibly fun Pokémon to use. Entro likes defensive sets, but I’m not much of a believer. I find people place way too much emphasis on maintaining Shadow Shield as it isn’t often that important outside of hyper offense games. You don’t want it statused, but Lunala tends to outspeed most of the Pokémon it is in front of anyways so it doesn’t take many hits. Often just getting one Moonblast or Trick click correct is enough to impact the outcome of the game. ‘GHAZ’ does give Lunala the support it needs as that core can easily switch into Marshadow, Yveltal and Arceus-Dark. I used to be a much bigger proponent of Arceus-Fairy alongside Lunala but these days I’m not sure. You’d think Lunala soft checks Ultra Necrozma, but +1 OHKOes after Stealth Rock. It isn’t great against hyper offense, but is good against nearly everything else. These days that last slot on a Lunala team should probably be able to provide value against Sticky Web teams.
Calyrex-I balance or bulky offense is probably my favourite structure to use as Calyrex-I provides so much flexibility both in game and in the builder. Until someone makes a good Heal Bell Mega Diancie team Calyrex-I will remain the only viable cleric outside of stall. The ability to do lets you play a lot more freely as Calyrex-I should easily find the opportunity in the longer games where that it useful. I’ve been wondering if High Horsepower is still the way to go as defensive Necrozma-DM has been extinct and horrible for a long time now and that is the main reason to use it as Glacial Lance 2HKOes Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM anyways. It needs the damage amplifier from Choice Band to make the most of the few attacks it will get off each game, but Calyrex-I usually makes its brief time in the sun count. Being so powerful means that it can shed its horrid defensive typing to patch up a weakness on the team as it is fat as hell and check emergency check just about anything with the right tera type. Personally I prefer one of Fairy, Steel, or Water, but there is probably a use case for just about anything. It being a solid Dragon Dance Zygarde check is an underrated aspect of its toolkit as it is very easy to justify Tera Water Zygarde alongside Calyrex-I.
Most of the stuff Ditto is good against has risen in popularity. Webs are the dominant form of hyper offense. Zacian-C has been running Behemoth Blade far more often than Play Rough. Dragon Dance Zygarde use has slowed down as people have realized that it isn’t very splashable. It even enjoys Primal Kyogre use being a bit lower for whatever reason. It is currently easier to use Ditto than it has been in a long time.
Rayquaza definitely enjoys the rise of Fezandipiti structures. It doesn’t feast on them, but Alomomola structures are a surprisingly annoying matchup despite how lopsided it might appear on paper. In NDPL I loaded Scale Shot Rayquaza which is a fun tech that worked before I fumbled the game away. Rayquaza does what it always has, but the metagame has shifted towards structures that it has a slightly time easier breaking which in turn makes it easier to fit. I do still find it is a ‘I want to use Rayqauza’ more than ‘this team needs Rayquaza’ metagame though. It is great when you can fit it.
I still want Shadow Tag banned, but Gothitelle is in the worst spot it has been in a while. Dragon Dance Zygarde use may have died down a bit, but Dragon Tail has become popular on Coil sets which pressures Gothitelle into Tera Fairy more often. The rise of Fezandipiti, a defensive Pokémon Gothitelle cannot trap isn’t ideal either. The main reason people still don’t view it as broken is because almost nobody is willing to use or build with it. It is funny how the one Pokémon on hyper offense it does check is the nearly uncheckable Ultra Necrozma.
Garganacl is so good and complete dogshit at the same time. Garganacl teams are very good, but lord are they a pain in the ass the build. The issue is Garganacl is a tera hog in a way that matters. It wants both Tera Water and Tera Fairy as both leave pretty big holes to Pokémon which heavily threaten the structures Garganacl fits on. The issue is that many of these are addressed with tera as well which makes building with Garganacl a frustrating endeavour. The issue isn’t the end product, but the development.
Pheromosa is a Pokémon that I’ve thought to be pretty underrated for a while. It fits on bulky offense a bit better than balance, but works on balance as well. It frustrates the ‘GHAZ’ core by pressuring Zygarde to Tera and endlessly gaining momentum until it is time to strike due to the Arceus-Dark matchup. It is also a serviceable Dragon Dance Zygarde check and the ability to OHKO Zacian-C is appreciated. Imo it works better as a breaker with Tera Fighting rather than an Ekiller stopgap with Tera Ghost, but enough Ekillers are Tera Normal these days that maybe it is worth it.
The Checklist
This isn’t an exhaustive list, but some of the Pokémon that annoy balance structures more than others. There are a lot of Pokémon with the right set that are immensely threating that I have not included. For example, Double Dance Primal Groudon is a demon if Zygarde is even slightly chipped given the shift towards offensive Ho-Oh. I’ve yapped a lot and am getting a bit tired.
Sticky Web is the archetype which has seen the most optimization in recent times. The survey results are out now and there will not be a suspect test, but I do think the metagame would heavily benefit from banning Sticky Web. Even then, Smeargle and Yveltal are the unhealthy elements as just about anything will work if you have those two. That being said, I do think the best Sticky Webs teams tend to be those which utilize Chi-Yu. Ultra Necrozma is also incredibly unhealthy, but has fallen out of favour on Sticky Web structures in favour of Chi-Yu as it beats Ultra Necrozma’s counterplay and helps maintain Sticky Webs with a fast Taunt and these teams appreciate an additional means of handling Yveltal. Chi-Yu might have issues with offense, but Sticky Web being so difficult to remove alleviates this as it outspeeds the entire metagame with them up.
The issue with Sticky Web is that ‘outplaying’ and removing Sticky Web is often more a result of the webs user playing poorly than an expression of skill. Consequently, teams have been forced to restructure themselves with the ability to at least semi consistently remove webs. The options for doing so are incredibly limited. Choice Scarf Yveltal always will, but it is heavily flawed Pokémon and not a good fit on balance structures. Icy Wind Fezandipiti should not be the most consistent option available. Offensive Ho-Oh sometimes can, but is quite inconsistent. Giratina-O pretty much never will. It isn’t as though the win is free if you get webs off, but it isn’t horrible as your counterplay to various threats can actually do its job.
Anyone keeping up with NDUbers will have seen Tera Normal Double-Edge Ekiller at this point. It is an evolution of the same set which used to run Normalium-Z, but is more consistent. This variant of EKiller has risen up because of how effective it is against the ‘GHAZ’ core. +2 Tera Normal Silk Scarf Double-Edge OHKOes every member and will punch enough holes for a teammate to easily clean up the wreckage. Consequently, Marshadow has seen more use and Dragon Tail on Coil Zygarde prevents it from being used as setup fodder. This set is definitely good, but I think it is used more than it should have. It results in hyper offense structures that are obscenely weak to Marshadow and Zacian-C and then people moan about Zacian-C when Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground helps with both of those. If Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground wasn’t good on HO it would be somewhere in the B ranks.
I’ve always found Mega Diancie’s lack of use a bit surprising. It anti-leads every HO setter while being a nuisance to dispatch. Dispatching it isn’t a massive issue, but doing so without it making important progress or forcing a tera is. Fairy-, Ground-, and Rock- type coverage is annoying, but Mega Diancie’s movepool is shocking deep and it always seems to have whatever move is most annoying your team to face. It benefits from the ubiquity of ‘GAHZ’ but the moment you use Arceus-Fairy you’ll run into the person using Encore instead of Substitute. Mega Diancie’s typing is also shockingly good despite pitiful bulk so it can switch into a some Pokémon such as Ho-Oh and Yveltal a couple of times.
Deoxys-S is better, but Glimmora is more annoying. It is also better against balance where it’ll force some awkward compromises to deal with it outside of something like defensive Primal Kyogre. You don’t want to proc Toxic Debris, but most special attackers also don’t want to take Mortal Spin or Mud Shot.
Defensive Necrozma-DM is shit, but Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM is a massively slept on threat that still gets surprisingly little use. It is just a damn good wallbreaker and remarkably consistent without something like Tera Water Zygarde or Ferrothorn. Primal Groudon does trade with it, but this rarely feels like a worthwhile trade. It is something you can pretty easily forget about and then when you run into it it’ll claim a couple Pokémon. Ho-Oh does check Photon Geyser variants, but still does not take it well. Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM isn’t a super annoying Pokémon to face or account for. It just rips you a new one in a refreshingly honest way.
I’ve written too much about Ultra Necrozma elsewhere to want to repeat myself for the umpteenth time. I wish we could ban it, but the survey scores were not high enough to justify a suspect test on anything. Even then, given that its unhealthy presence is primarily in the builder and a lot of people are just given teams for suspect runs I’m not exactly confident it would get banned anyways. At least SSNDUbers was able to quickban it.
Offensive Primal Kyogre is still as scary as ever if you are not running Ferrothorn. Sure, Utility Umbrella Fezandipiti avoids the 2HKO, but it just sacrifices itself to allow a teammate to handle it. I’m not so sure why people have seemingly abandoned it on hyper offense, but it is as good as ever. Primal Groudon is still a shit check, but one of the best we have. Wallbreaker Primal Kyogre on bulky offense and offense structures is probably the biggest threat to the GHAZ core when it has something of a defensive backbone to support it and can get in more than once. It is strong enough to simply brute force progress.
There are few if any balance teams out there completely unfazed by seeing Deoxys-A on the other side of the field at preview. It must click correctly as a misread means death, but Psycho Boost + Low Kick is all it really needs. Deoxys-A has the movepool to delete everything except for Zacian-C so figuring that out is a massive pain. Marshadow can at least afford to make a mistake, but Deoxys-A really can’t. It is deadly in the right hands and useless in mine. It was memes, but loading Pain Split Deoxys-A into stall and goobing on the ladder one day still puts a smile on my face months later. A little more seriously, it is a damn strong breaker and very threatening to the GHAZ core. One of the nice things about Arceus-Fairy is shoring up the Deoxys-A matchup a bit because Calm Mind Arceus-Dark just drops to Low Kick.
With Ultra Necrozma, Yveltal, and webs in general driving people nuts, I think Ting-Lu can open the doors to easier teambuilding. It laughs at most Pokemon in the tiers attacks, including the previously stated goobers and a lot of hyper offense such as Arceus and Eternatus. Some might say that it is overly passive against these. I don't think so. For most of these, phasing is a pretty big deal, especially considering that running Ting-Lu means they will probably be taking a lot of hazard damage. Yveltal is definitely one of the harder ones, but Ruination leaves it open to Eternatus, who I will bring up later.
Hey, now is later. I think Eternatus is a very underrated Pokemon at the moment. Sure, Defensive is falling off, but Life Orb and Choice Specs are very underrated I feel. Life Orb is a flexible and fairly powerful wallbreaker and revenge killer, with some solid longevity, while Choice Specs hits like a truck. Both are capable of Toxic Spikes support, and both are pretty good answers to Yveltal. Both are really strong options on bulky offense and balance. But that's not all. Behold peak cookery.
Eternatus @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Flamethrower
- Toxic Spikes / Sludge Bomb / Toxic
- Dynamax Cannon
So, this might spark several questions, such as "What the fuck?" Rest assured, there is a method to my madness. One of the most common critiques of defensive Eternatus is its passiveness. Notably, its synergy with Marshadow is quite nice. With Life Orb, Eternatus deals enough damage to put Zacian and untransformed Ultra Necrozma in range to be killed by Shadow Sneak and Dynamax Cannon for the latter, as well as putting transformed Ultra Necrozma in range to be revenge killed by tera Ghost Shadow Sneak after rocks. It is also a great Yveltal check, capable of 2HKOing Specially Offensive Yveltal, while not being 2HKOd by Dark Pulse in return, allowing it to wall it effectively. Since it outspeeds most of the tier, Life Orb chip doesn't matter as much as you think, as it can use a fast Recover to heal off the damage if the opponent can't out damage it. While it can't effectively take care of Marshadow, its combination of bulk and respectable power lets it perform surprisingly well.
Now, to make sure you don't overdose on insanity too quickly, I will share some more reasonable things now. Here are a bunch of alternate sets that I made.
This set lets Lunala switch into Kyogre's Origin Pulse after rocks, which can be useful for a team without a good answer to it.
This set lets Kyogre switch into Yveltal after rocks, while still hitting really hard. The speed issue is unfortunate, but you can still outspeed some Groudon sets, as well as Ho-Oh.
This set essentially guarantees a trade with Zacian. Alternatively, you can subtract some points from attack to put in speed to outspeed Ho-Oh.
The analysis lists Zacian as the reason for the defense investments, saying that it lets it live +2 Tera Blast from Zacian. However, only 48 EVs are required for that, leaving an extra 20 points to put somewhere else. You could keep it for the extra bulk, but I find that putting it into speed is more consistently useful, letting it outspeed Ho-Oh, Defensive Kyogre, and some Groudon sets, while letting it speed tie with Dragon Dance Necrozma Dusk Mane.
I feel like this is a slept on option. It is incredible into offense, effortlessly clearing webs and being a great revenge killer, being one of the best answers to Zacian. It's also a solid answer to Marshadow, and a pivot option is always great to have. I feel like people think its a lot more restricted than it is. I find that its pretty solid on balance teams, really appreciating Ho-Oh. I think that experimenting with Scarf Yveltal could be worth it.
Now, there was one other thing I was going to bring up, but I want to get this post out soon, and this thing requires a lot more words. Now, you probably thought Defensive Life Orb Eternatus was dumb, but buddy, you haven't seen anything yet. What could possibly be dumber than that?
Mukrow Part 2
Coming soon...
nvm they fucking killed it
The offensive Eternatus is probably the strongest SPA fighter. You will find that most of the balanced teams in ndub are Ho-Oh+Groudon-Primal+Zygarde, and the arc type is basically fairy/dark. There are also special Alomomola, Yveltal, etc. You will find that they are all within the attack range of dragon+fire+poison, and they are not as fast as Eternatus.At the same time, Eternatus has good survivability, he can eat a lot of atk and counterattack, he has a high spe, which allows him to recover first. He is a very strong turret, and he also has a set like tera fire that allows him to counter high-speed fighters like zacian, which provides a gambling opportunity.Maybe it's worth a try.
Alright, tier list time. Here is a ranking of all the Pokemon based on how positively or negatively they impact the format.
S A B C D E F IDK What You Even Do
does nothing but help the tier. It checks a lot of the metas most dangerous threats while being good but not too overcentralising. The most you could levy against it is that it is an accomplice to stall, but that's not at all a big issue.
is a great part of the tier. I don't think I have to explain that. What I do have to explain is why I didn't put it in S. Well, something I really hate is RNG. I think the less RNG elements a tier has, the better. And Sacred Fire is a fairly big RNG element that meant I ultimately couldn't put it in S.
hold the tier together pretty well. That being said, Jesus Christ why do all of its moves miss?
is somewhat problematic thanks to Dragon Dance, but it has too much positive impacts for me to put it too low for that.
has a lot of good and a lot of bad. First of all, it has the most accessible priority option by far. Priority is fantastic, as it helps keep hyper offense under control pretty well. This is a fantastic thing that basically single handedly made me put it this high, as it makes it an answer to that you don't have to go out of your way to put on your team. However, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. First of all, depending on your team, can be really annoying on ladder. It's also somewhat restrictive in teambuilder. However, the big one is its potential threat. has fairly few accessible checks, several of which are currently on the chopping block. It could only really take a single ban for it to become utterly broken.
I find is actually incredibly healthy. I don't find webs as problematic as a lot of people, and in fact find them good for diversity. A lot of Pokemon depend on webs, and is an honest setter of them that won't rudely cover you in spores.
is also not as bad as people say, and does a lot good, checking some important things. It is a little annoying to build against, and the flinch chance from Dark Pulse is annoying, but I still think it does a lot for this meta.
STALL is complicated. I am a fan of diversity, but stall isn't relevant enough to really score too many points in that regard. In fact, I don't like that you have to heavily consider this playstyle in teambuilder when most of the time it won't matter. Stall also leaves little room for variation. It's not problematic enough to warrant being especially low, but I'm not a fan.
TRICK ROOM isn't relevant. It sucks. It doesn't contribute to the meta at all outside of making hyper offense almost suck. No good comes out of Trick Room, but its problematic aspects not being particularly bad save it from being lower.
is a Pokemon that I really wanted to put higher. It does a lot for hyper offense, being a fantastic defensive option for them. I also feel it can be quite useful outside of hyper offense for similar reasons defensively. However, while I think it's restrictiveness is massively overblown, it's not exactly coming from nowhere. It also is really annoying to try to guess if its there or not on ladder.
flooberdy doober
HOLY SHIT I FUCKING LOVE!!! I LOVE IT WHEN I LOSE A MATCH THANKS TO IT MISSING!!! I LOVE THE STRESS IT BRINGS INTO EVERY MATCH IT'S IN BY MAKING BOTH PLAYERS SUSCEPTIBLE TO LOSING FOR NO REASON!!! I LOVE IT WHEN MY OPPONENT BEATS ME IN A TOURNAMENT JUST BECAUSE THEY GOT LUCKY!!!
might surprise you by being this low. However, its presence is solely due to its last move slot. Guess wrong, and a Pokemon dies. It does keep in line, but other than that it doesn't do a whole lot beneficial besides showing why open team sheets is a really good idea.
is very annoying to build against. It is very annoying to step on pins and needles to deny it an opportunity to clear your team. It is very annoying to try to guess if it's Play Rough or Behemoth Blade. It is very annoying to try to figure out what its Tera type is. is very annoying.
surprised me a lot, but it is actually incredibly restrictive in teambuilder for me. You probably think it's not that bad, and that's because you all use . is the main reason why it is almost impossible to drop , as it is very hard to switch in on without it. It's also pretty hard to switch in on with it. On top of that, Origin Pulse makes matches pretty reliant on RNG. Without it, teambuilding would be much easier and far less restrictive.
is a bitch. gives web setters a bad name. is decently reliant on RNG. And don't even get me started on Moody.
can burn in hell. I want whoever made Double Iron Bash publically executed.
Alright, so a lot of people are complaining about stuff here. People hate webs, people hate Unec, people hate Yveltal. A lot of stuff here. They say they are too restrictive in the builder. Frankly, I brushed them off as complaining about nothing. Now, a month or so has passed, and I have come to realize that while the latter two are in my opinion very manageable, webs can occasionally be hard to build around. Yes, webs is difficult to build around in the team builder.
And I'm thrilled about this.
You see, I believe that something being "restrictive" in the teambuilder isn't actually that bad of a thing. In fact, I believe there should be things that are difficult to build around. In my opinion, some amount centralization and overbearing threats is not only healthy for a metagame, but can improve creativity. Allow me to give you an example.
Recently, I was making a team, and then I noticed it loses pretty hard to Webs, Extreme Killer, and DD Arceus Ground. Unfortunately, I only had one team slot to work with, and I still didn't have a defogger. So, did I ditch the team, giving up in the face of oppression? No. Instead, I made this:
Serperior @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 32 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Glare
Serperior not only is fantastic against webs, but is also solid against DD Arceus Ground, and with the Tera type manages to also be solid against Extreme Killer. Glare also manages to make it hard to sit on.
While you'd be hard pressed to find a reason to use Serperior on basically any other team, Serperior managed to be a dare I say good choice on my team not in spite of the centralization and pressure on the teambuilder, but because of it.
It's easy to assume that "difficult" pokemon such as Ultra Necrozma and Yveltal would restrict the level of power and decrease what you can use, but I find that in many cases the opposite happens. Problems that are difficult for a metagame to handle invite solutions previously outside of it, and this is a prime breading ground for creative Shitmon. Had it not been for Ultra Necrozma, Zarude wouldn't have been considered. Had it not been for Yveltal, Fezandipiti might not have popped onto the scene. Pressure in the teambuilder invites creative solutions that are not only fun to see in a metagame, not only help make them unique and special, but make a metagame more diverse.
I had a post planned about offensive and defensive counterplay to GHAZ which I've been working off and on for a couple months now when I've had the time, but figured that this post was worth responding to because there is a fair amount I disagree with. For what its worth, I have looked at Serprior personally as an option myself a few times over the last year or so as a Defogger and Serprior isn't really a major point of contention I have. I think it maybe has some potential, but it comes with so many issues that it is more of a D+ Pokémon. That still might be a bit high, but Serperior is definitely something I'd consider before a lot of our D ranks.
Alright, so a lot of people are complaining about stuff here. People hate webs, people hate Unec, people hate Yveltal. A lot of stuff here. They say they are too restrictive in the builder. Frankly, I brushed them off as complaining about nothing. Now, a month or so has passed, and I have come to realize that while the latter two are in my opinion very manageable, webs can occasionally be hard to build around. Yes, webs is difficult to build around in the team builder.
And I'm thrilled about this.
You see, I believe that something being "restrictive" in the teambuilder isn't actually that bad of a thing. In fact, I believe there should be things that are difficult to build around. In my opinion, some amount centralization and overbearing threats is not only healthy for a metagame, but can improve creativity.
Edit: not really sure what happened, but I had a couple of paragraphs about why nuance matters on this topic and I'm not really sure where they went as I wrote this in a word document. The last of the paraphraphs I did not copy was talking about this in regard to the banned mons.
Furthermore, the typical counterplay to these threats were among the best Pokémon in the tier and have remained so after their departure. Whilst these Pokémon’s presence was detrimental to the health and enjoyment of the tier, there were some sets that were undeniably healthy such as Choice Scarf Koraidon and defensive Xerneas. Nonetheless, they were banned because of everything else. Even in the case of Shedinja, we do have unrestricted Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam in addition to unrestricted Toxic. Despite having the tools to deal with it, it was banned because it didn’t bring anything positive to the tier to counteract an otherwise cancerous presence.
Contrary to your assertion, this level of centralization stifles creativity rather than promote it. This was most clearly demonstrated throughout the development of the post Xerneas metagame. Many good sets today that were either much worse, incredibly niche, or plain unviable during the Xerneas metagame. Lets take a look at a few:
Pokémon
Set
Reason
Defensive
Defensive Primal Groudon, then as now, is the best set on the best Pokémon in the tier. However, during the Xerneas metagame it was quite constrained as it was the worst set against Xerneas. Primal Groudon was a semi-fake Xerneas check anyways, but offensive sets did deal with it better as +2 Moonblast 2HKOed once Xerneas was free to run a Modest nature following Koraidon's ban. Xerneas incentivising a phasing move in an already constrained moveslot didn't help matters either.
Coil
There are a lot of parallels between Coil Zygarde during the Xerneas metagame and currently. Its defensive utility was and is important enough to accommodate the downsides. During the Xerneas metagame Zygarde one of the two, maybe three Xerneas weak slots a balance or bulky offense structure could afford. It is similar now in that Coil Zygarde is still one of the maybe two passive slots the same structures can afford. There is also more variation now as Dragon Tail was near impossible to justify due to how common both Xerneas and Zacian-C were during this metagame. Coil Zygarde was a top tier Pokémon then, but nowhere near the necessity it is today on most structures outside of stall and hyper offense.
Dragon Dance
During the Xerneas metagame Dragon Dance Zygarde was little more than an entry on the strategy dex as I could probably count the amount of times I saw it on a single hand. It is horrendous against hyper offense outside of the lead slot due to a near total inability to setup on much of anything. The Xerneas metagame was far more titled towards hyper offense than our current one.
Offensive
Offensive Ho-Oh barely existed as the utility of the defensive set was considered too much to give up at the time as it was about the only Pokémon that could reasonably check both Xerneas and Zacian-C. Other Pokémon could check both on paper, but dealing with one would leave Pokémon such as Primal Groudon or Necrozma-DM well within range of the other. With the benefit of hindsight, offensive Ho-Oh probably should have been used more than it was, but it also makes complete sense why it wasn’t.
Life Orb
Yveltal was excellent during the Xerneas metagame, but it suffered a hell of a lot from the combination of Xerneas + Zacian-C as it let both in for free and couldn’t do much of anything against Zacian-C while it could at best attempt to prevent Xerneas from setting up with Taunt. This was more realistic towards the end of the Xerneas metagame as slower sets became the standard, but such a rough hyper offense matchup made it difficult to fit despite being excellent against everything else. If anything, Yveltal currently occupies a somewhat similar position now with its enabling of hyper offense whilst still fitting on balance and bulky offense. Life Orb Yveltal is probably the single biggest benefactor of Xerneas’s ban.
Calm Mind
Calm Mind Arceus-Dark simply did not exist at the time. I’m sure a couple of people used it, but to describe it as anything more than a niche fun thing to mess around with on ladder would be dishonest. Even if you burnt Tera to setup on Xerneas, Arceus-Dark would still get goobed by Ultra Necrozma which was often near max Speed and Zacian-C which was commonly Tera Blast Ground. Defensive Arceus-Dark was amazing then, but Xerneas heavily limited what you could run alongside it due to Xerneas. The metagame was centralized enough that what it answered was important enough to deal with the downsides.
Wallbreaker
Dropping Sludge Bomb in a Xerneas metagame is rough even if Tera Steel doesn’t exist. Eternatus as a whole was significantly better due to the strength of Toxic Spikes in that metagame so defensive sets were not cheeks. Offensive Eternatus existed, but barely outside of hyper offense while not really being common itself.
Dragon Dance
Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM is slightly better now than then as a lot of both the strengths and drawbacks of the set were the same in a vacuum. However, Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM is more of a wallbreaker with some utility against hyper offense and appreciates it being used slightly less than during the Xerneas metagame. I’d say it is a shame defensive Necrozma-DM has fallen off since then, but I thought that set was as cheeks by the end of the Xerneas metagame as it is now for mostly the same reasons.
Choice Scarf
The common hyper offense structures just kind of naturally improofed themselves significantly better than they do nowadays. Xerneas and Ultra Necrozma improof themselves fairly well while Zacian-C at the time ran Play Rough a lot more than it does now which also lets it improof. The standard hyper offense structure was lead + Arceus forme + Xerneas + Zacian-C + Ultra Necrozma + 1 and well…it wasn’t simply just get Ditto in. Extreme Killer Arceus being reasonably split between Tera Ghost / Normal and Xerneas commonly running Tera Steel didn’t make Ditto’s life easier.
Both
Giratina-O had a lot of the same issues that it has today, but it was well every hyper offense archetype is annoying instead of just Sticky Web. It is a big asterisk, but if you don’t load into Sticky Web Giratina-O is a lot better now than it was then. Giratina-O was so frustrating to use because it was a massive tera hog and still wasn’t amazing even with that level of investment due to consistency issues.
Pivot
Alomomola is mediocre at best against hyper offense due to not really checking much of anything by itself. I don’t recall if R8 brought it to everyone’s attention just before or after Xerneas was banned, but it definitely would not have experienced nearly the same level of success as it has post-Xerneas. It would not have been terrible, but there would be way too many games where it feels like you’re playing 5 v 6 as it does today.
Defensive
I think Landorus-T is a bit overrated currently because it is often overburdened. It checks Zacian-C well, but has consistency issues when you need it do more than one thing. It wasn’t seen at all during the Xerneas metagame for good reason.
This is by no means a comprehensive list as it ignores sets such as Choice Scarf Yveltal, Taunt Calm Mind Arceus-Fairy, and probably something else I’m forgetting. It also doesn’t include Fezandipiti as it wasn’t discovered during the Xerneas metagame and its utility into Sticky Web specifically as opposed to hyper offense in general is a factor in its viability despite the likihood that probably would have been viable. Additionally, I have not included a list of sets that have gotten worse post-Xerneas as it isn’t that long. The most obvious is Magearna which pretty much became unviable the moment Xerneas was banned, but the biggest loser is defensive Eternatus due to the degree to which Toxic Spikes covered its flaws and screens as an archetype. There are a few others such as non Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Water that have struggled to find their footing as the metagame developed post-Xerneas, but that is more of a secondary effect. As I'm starting to get off on a tangent, my primary source of bafflement is:
Frankly, I brushed them off as complaining about nothing...
You see, I believe that something being "restrictive" in the teambuilder isn't actually that bad of a thing. In fact, I believe there should be things that are difficult to build around. In my opinion, some amount centralization and overbearing threats is not only healthy for a metagame, but can improve creativity
I’m not sure why you’d immediately dismiss people’s dissatisfaction with certain elements of the metagame rather than try to see things from their perspective and evaluate the validity of their frustrations. Maybe you agree, maybe you don’t, but so long as the complaint is reasonable it should be considered. If nothing else, it prevents you from being trapped by your own perspective and is a basic courtesy.
Words are important and the word I’m really struggling with is ‘some’. We could ban a half dozen things and NatDex Ubers would still be a highly centralized tier. The issue isn’t whether the tier is centralized, but if it is too centralized. It isn’t if something is difficult to build around, but whether it is reasonable to build around. That is an important distinction as the reason why something was discovered can be more important than the discovery itself. If the only reason why something is good is due to a certain element of the metagame lacking reasonable and sufficient counterplay, that should serve as a red flag that said element may be a bit too much.
For example, if Sticky Web was banned, I’d categorize Yveltal as a healthy type of centralization, similar to what you’re describing. As things stand, I don’t think Yveltal is a healthy presence in the tier due to its combination of fast Taunt and wallbreaking capabilities enabling Sticky Web structures to an unreasonable degree. Icy Wind Fezandipiti is probably the best example of how we view things differently.
While I appreciate Fezandipiti’s efficacy in facilitating the removal of Sticky Web, I don’t view that as a positive. Instead, I wonder why Fezandipiti of all things is the most consistent option available to me is my best option as balance and bulky offense structures need Sticky Web removed to even play the game. Otherwise… Yveltal and Chi-Yu will simply sweep. Furthermore, it isn’t as though Fezandipiti is one of a myriad of options available and I’m just taking my pick of the bunch.
Furthermore, the options outside of Fezandipiti on balance are extremely limited and less consistent. It is kind of just defensive Primal Kyogre because if a Pokémon isn’t getting through Yveltal, you are realistically not removing them and Dark Pulse has a 20% flinch rate so you’re still somewhat gambling. Sure Primal Groudon works with Rock Tomb or Overheat, but if that is what you’re relying on…there are likely a lot of other issues with the team and good luck with the Zacian-C that is on pretty much every Sticky Web team because now it doesn’t even need to boost. This also ignores the bullshit involved with dispatching Smeargle and hoping you’ve correctly guessed whether it is running Nuzzle or Spore. Additionally, Ditto is ‘great’ against Sticky Web, but more as a cleaner as Yveltal and Chi-Yu improof themselves fairly well.
Bulky offense does have a couple more options, but Fezandipiti has not proven itself there. Sure, you could run Choice Scarf Yveltal or Mega Diancie on balance, but the opportunity cost renders them pretty shit there and Choice Scarf Yveltal is pretty bad on bulky offense anyways. Dragon Dance Zygarde is alright, but reliant on dragging in the right Pokémon to give your hazard control the opportunity to Defog and has been a good Pokémon that is hard to fit on good teams for a while now.
Perhaps the best example is Ribombee? It rose to C+ on our last slate solely because it is a Sticky Web setter that beats the other setters. It is ‘creative,’ but when this is the source is that really a good thing? I’m always a fan of thinking outside the box and seeing the ‘next thing,’ but it also isn’t worth preserving unhealthy elements if that is what it takes to find the next shitmon. Some, or even a lot of centralization is fine, but there has to be a line somewhere.
Recently, I was making a team, and then I noticed it loses pretty hard to Webs, Extreme Killer, and DD Arceus Ground. Unfortunately, I only had one team slot to work with, and I still didn't have a defogger. So, did I ditch the team, giving up in the face of oppression? No. Instead, I made this:
Serperior @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 32 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Glare
Serperior not only is fantastic against webs, but is also solid against DD Arceus Ground, and with the Tera type manages to also be solid against Extreme Killer. Glare also manages to make it hard to sit on.
While you'd be hard pressed to find a reason to use Serperior on basically any other team, Serperior managed to be a dare I say good choice on my team not in spite of the centralization and pressure on the teambuilder, but because of it.
I’m assuming this is the team you alluded to in your post in the teambuilding competition ()? Serperior is something Bob and myself have tried and failed to get to work so it is great to see someone else trying to solve the serpent! The lack of information and context makes it immensely difficult to properly attempt to evaluate something like this as any conclusion I’d have would be predicated on assumptions that may or may not be correct.
Again, I’m operating on incomplete information so I’m not sure what exactly the EV spread is meant to do. The Speed is clearly for creeping standard Taunt Calm Mind Arceus formes, but I also can’t figure out what the bulk investment is for? The only thing I can find is +1 Zacian-C Tera Fighting Close Combat after Stealth Rock which feels way too specific when you have (presumably) a defensive Landorus-T and Primal Groudon. I feel that Serperior would benefit from outspeeding Mega Diancie and that is also going to get the jump on any Arceus formes that are doing the same kind of Speed creeping you are as they’d likely just go max-max at that point. Also 8 more HP EVs would let Serperior survive and extra Seismic Toss from Chansey.
The biggest differentiator between a viable shitmon and a usable shitmon is whether a team actually benefits from said shitmon’s presence and I’m just not really seeing it here. Again, I’m operating on incomplete information. It feels like you’ve tunnel visioned to some of the things Serperior can do whilst ignoring its flaws. I guess the best place to start is its claimed roles:
Anti-Webs Serperior definitely will ensure that Sticky Web is removed, no question about that. I’m assuming the game plan is lead with Landorus-T and slow U-turn to break the Focus Sash and then Serperior has a Speed Boost and the Covert Cloak means it only really cares about Perish Song? It’ll probably work once as the Covert Cloak will catch your opponent off guard, but I struggle to see this working perfectly regularly – especially if Smeargle gets a Moody boost. Shuckle is dicey as Leaf Storm doesn’t 3HKO since Serperior is damn weak and Encore exists. It can get a pass since Shuckle is meh.
DD Arceus-Ground counterplay This one is pretty flimsy and is predicated on the assumption that Serperior is Defogging and taking minimal damage before switching out. Serperior isn’t super bulky to begin with and has minimal investment so if it takes a hit from pretty much anything it can’t beat Arceus-Ground as +1 Earthquake 2HKOes. It works in a vacuum I guess, but I don’t see it playing out in practise.
Ekiller counterplay - This one is a no from me. +2 Tera Normal Extreme Speed does way too much even after Tera Rock (73.9% minimum). There is some universe where it can Glare, but at this point I’d just slap Tera Ghost on Ho-Oh or Choice Scarf Yveltal. I’m assuming Deoxys-A is Tera Ghost for this anyways.
Glare Utility – Sure? It’ll do it against Calm Mind Arceus formes that are not max Speed which is the most common and it’ll probably let Eternatus break through. Glare is an amazing move, but Serperior’s lack of bulk makes it hard to utilize without recovery. It gets Aromatherapy which is something and this team does not exactly love Coil Dragon Tail Zygarde.
So Serperior certainly removes Webs, but everything else seems a bit flimsy to me in practise. I kind of see it as something you could whip out once and win due to the surprise factor, but it won’t be consistent. A lot of the work it puts in seems predicated on the assumption that everything will go perfectly and you’ll catch your opponent off guard. That is also in an ideal matchup and I’m not really sure how this deals with something that isn’t Sticky Web. If I’m running a 341 Speed Arceus forme and I see a Serperior switch-in I’m going to assume it outspeeds me and will Glare because why wouldn’t it? The other thing is how constraining Tera Blast is (I’m assuming it is Tera Blast Rock because +2 HP Rock doesn’t OHKO even with tera). It just kind of feels me to like you could just replace Serperior with Choice Scarf Yveltal and slap on Tera Ghost or Steel and it would function pretty similarly. You could also probably replace Landorus-T as that gives you Zacian-C counterplay and offensive Ho-Oh can’t switch-in on Foul Play anyways. A fast Toxic also lets you force the issue with Calm Mind Arceus formes for Deoxys-A as well while giving a decent answer to Dragon Dance Zygarde and Marshadow which blows this team up. Neither Yveltal or Serperior have longevity, but Yveltal does at least take some hits and isn’t reliant on Tera Blast to have a semblance of coverage. I think Serperior is usable, it’ll probably get a win, but it isn’t something I would feel comfortable relying on. It might be viable, but I don’t think this is the set that is going to result in that.
It's easy to assume that "difficult" pokemon such as Ultra Necrozma and Yveltal would restrict the level of power and decrease what you can use, but I find that in many cases the opposite happens. Problems that are difficult for a metagame to handle invite solutions previously outside of it, and this is a prime breading ground for creative Shitmon. Had it not been for Ultra Necrozma, Zarude wouldn't have been considered. Had it not been for Yveltal, Fezandipiti might not have popped onto the scene. Pressure in the teambuilder invites creative solutions that are not only fun to see in a metagame, not only help make them unique and special, but make a metagame more diverse.
I had to go back and double check the Zarude nomination because I could have sworn I said there it wasn’t really Ultra Necrozma counterplay despite being a Dark-type and apparently I stopped just short of that and said it prevents Ultra Necrozma from setting up on it with Encore. Zarude’s purpose is a Zygarde and Primal Kyogre counter that has some additional utility due to its Speed tier and disruption. Fortunately, it synergizes near perfectly with Marshadow and if it didn’t I’m not sure I’d consider it viable. Even describing Zarude as Ultra Necrozma counterplay is pretty generous as the set I used doesn’t even really touch it. You could tech it to beat Ultra Necrozma, but if you did I’m not sure it would even be viable as Tera Dark Darkest Lariat is a very low roll to OHKO and it really isn’t worth giving up the utility and bulk as it takes way too much away from what makes it worth using in the first place. Even if Zarude has a lot of options in that fourth slot, Rock Tomb’s Speed drop provides utility against Sticky Web ala Icy Wind Fezandipiti. You can mess around with the Tera Type as Tera Rock is a solid option for similar reasons to why you’ve chosen it on Serperior, but I don’t really see how one would avoid being goobed by Sticky Web if Zarude didn’t supply that utility. If anything I think Zarude would probably get slightly better in a metagame without Ultra Necrozma as it is a Dark-type that doesn’t beat Ultra Necrozma whilst Ultra Necrozma heavily suppresses Arceus-Ground and -Water’s use.
I feel like a bit of a dumbass with the benefit on hindsight, but Yveltal also didn’t play much of a role in what I initially liked about Fezandipiti. I can’t speak for R8 as we didn’t collaborate on it and only discussed it after Adem’s freak out and maybe it played a role for them. The initial allure for me was compressing a counter to Arceus-Dark, -Fairy, and offensive Eternatus. I didn’t realize it handled Yveltal as well as it did until I started calcing to see if it needed to fully invest in Special Defense. Handling Yveltal, especially with Sticky Web up is a massive part of its viability, but my initial thought was that Oblivion Wing probably did too much, but at least it could pivot and fish for a Toxic Chain proc if needed.
For what it is worth, I’ve always loved your general enthusiasm and unwillingness to leave any stone unturned in the search for the next good Pokémon even if we tend to disagree more often than not on this topic. I do think it is pretty likely that there are still a few hidden gems out there and I’m sure you’ll find a couple! I think Serperior is a lot more likely to lead to something than the couple of hours I sunk into Starmie and Mega Aerodactyl a couple of weeks ago. If anything, pressure in the teambuilder makes it harder to find those shitmons because you're already struggling to account for the metagame as is and most of the shitmons need a little breathing room. Innovation isn't always a new Pokémon, sometimes it is a new set, EV spread, or new way of fitting a Pokémon or set on an archetype it hasn't seen success on.
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The Checklist
can be really annoying on ladder. It's also somewhat restrictive in teambuilder. However, the big one is its potential threat. 
)? Serperior is something Bob and myself have tried and failed to get to work so it is great to see someone else trying to solve the serpent! The lack of information and context makes it immensely difficult to properly attempt to evaluate something like this as any conclusion I’d have would be predicated on assumptions that may or may not be correct.