Announcement National Dex Suspect 6: Big Fish

[Jordy]

apologies for this snoozer
​

Hey everyone! We're back with another suspect test! The National Dex council has been monitoring National Dex's state as a metagame over time, and this is one of the three potentially problematic Pokemon we've fished out. With this suspect test, we will be evaluating Dracovish's position in the metagame.

We've decided to suspect test Dracovish instead of Cinderace because Dracovish has been a very recurring Pokemon whenever potential suspects are discussed. Cinderace has really only shown to be a potential issue very recently. We'd prefer to handle Dracovish first.

Suspect Test Reasoning

Dracovish has been making some massive waves in National Dex. It is nearly unmatched as a wallbreaker; it sports very few consistent checks. The only semi-consistent defensive checks to Dracovish are Toxapex, Mega Slowbro, Alomomola, Tangrowth, Gastrodon, and Seismitoad. Due to each of their individual issues, these Pokemon tend to be quite exploitable.

However, while it may not be so comfortable to answer defensively, it is worth noting that Dracovish is held back by its relatively lacking Speed tier: it is always outsped by Pokemon such as Kartana, Kyurem, Tapu Fini, Dragapult, and Mega Lopunny.

That takes away from its overall prowess, but does not take away from its sheer potential as a wallbreaker and the amount of pressure it exerts on the teambuilder given its small amount of defensive checks. We believe that it's time to assess Dracovish's position in National Dex through a suspect test.

Suspect Test Information

• **This is new to National Dex suspect tests** Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.
• minimum games needed

  GXE	minimum games
  79	50
  79.2	49
  79.4	48
  79.6	47
  79.8	46
  80	45
  80.2	44
  80.4	43
  80.6	42
  80.8	41
  81	40
  81.2	39
  81.4	38
  81.6	37
  81.8	36
  82	35
  82.2	34
  82.4	33
  82.6	32
  82.8	31
  83	30

• You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NXVISH. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NXVISH Jordy.
• You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
• If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. This can range from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
• The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Dracovish, will be allowed on the National Dex ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
• This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until October the 8th at 11:59 PM GMT+2.

 

[Jordy]

Suspect Test Rules

• You are required to make sure that whatever you are arguing for is in-line with the Tiering Policy Framework. If what you're arguing for isn't, there's a very high chance that your post will be deleted.
• No uninformed one liners or posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspect tests;
• No discussion on the suspect test process.
• Your posts are expected to be respectful, please do not insult anyone.
• If you fail to follow these rules, you may be infracted without any prior warning.

If there are any questions, feel free to PM myself or Jho. If there are any questions about the moderation of this thread, you should feel free to PM the moderation team.

 

[Jordy]

You will be able to find thoughts of council members in this post. Their thoughts will be edited in over the next couple of days.

Guardsweeper

In terms of unhealthiness, it is my adamant belief that Choice Band Dracovish is the biggest culprit in the current metagame bar none. Dracovish has always been a notoriously ludicrous hard-hitter, but it wasn't until recently that the stars and planets aligned to complement Dracovish's strengths and cover up its weaknesses just about perfectly.

With Pokemon like Clefable, Heatran, Gliscor, Mega Scizor, and Corviknight being at their all-time heights, the amount of leeway Dracovish gets is quite simply uncomfortably large for a wallbreaker of its caliber. This is exacerbated even further by the sheer prominence and effectivity of slow-pivot structures due to how easily the likes of Slowbro, Blissey, Mega Scizor, and Corviknight enable these builds and their wallbreakers. The emergence of Future Sight Slowbro is particularly worth noting; once backed up by a Future Sight, Dracovish has no checks, period, with even Mega Slowbro not being capable of taking two uses of Crunch after Future Sight damage. A few other miscellaneous trends have also contributed to Dracovish's presence in the current metagame. Slowbro, which used to be one of Dracovish's most common checks, is forgoing Leftovers for Heavy-Duty Boots, which now makes it a very flimsy check at best, whereas Ferrothorn can’t afford to run physically defensive sets anymore due to Ash-Greninja's reintroduction. Dracovish also heavily enjoys the relatively slow metagame compared to a few months ago, and is a prime benefactor of the prominence of entry hazards.

All things considered, Dracovish has proven to be highly polarizing in the teambuilder, limiting players in their endeavor to cover other threats in the metagame, and very potent in practice with appropriate support, even while facing some of its theoretically most sturdy checks. There is no justification for keeping this in the metagame. I'll therefore be voting BAN.

Jho

I will start with a possible hot take in that I do not think Dracovish is flat out broken, however, I do believe it is unhealthy for the metagame due to its incredibly warping influence on the teambuilder as well as how polarizing its matchups are. Banded Dracovish has practically no defensive answers - which means if it gets in on something slower than it you are losing a Pokemon, or being put into a situation where you lose a Pokemon the next time it comes in, unless you have a Baneful Bunker Toxapex, Mega Slowbro, Synthesis Kartana, or something more niche such as Suicune for example. On top of this relatively limited pool of checks, Dracovish can usually overwhelm them anyway with a little bit of help from teammates in the forms of pivot support, Spikes, or even Future Sight which makes playing against it incredibly difficult. Despite all of this, the reason I do not think is flat out broken, but rather unhealthy, is that counterplay to it exists in an abundance, its just non-traditional and involves playing around not letting it in, and of course threatening it with faster Pokemon so that it doesnt get the boost from Fishious Rend. Being forced to deal with Dracovish in this manor is not always realistic however, just due to how common teammates can easily force favourable situations for Dracovish as mentioned above. It is for these reasons I will likely be voting BAN in the suspect, despite being of the opinion that counterplay to Vish exists in abundance.

Jordy

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Sevelon

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Solaros & Lunaris

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SputnikGT

Dracovish is, in my eyes, by far the least healthy part of the tier right now. It forces an unreasonable amount of counterplay on every teamstyle that isn’t hyper offense and is warping the metagame to an unhealthy degree. Dracovish preys on many very necessary defensive Pokemon and even bashes its way through certain, until now, perfectly fine Water-resists, like Tapu Fini, Rotom-W, and Specially Defensive Ferrothorn, that just don’t have the bulk to take it on effectively. It also works absurdly well with other metagame forces in Cinderace, Slowbro, Blissey, and Ash-Greninja. Teams, especially bulkier ones, are being forced to resort to rather ridiculous strategies to consistently take on the threat of Dracovish+Future Sight Slowbro and other pivots, such as double water builds utilizing both Toxapex and Gastrodon. The ease of fitting excellent Spikes support in the forms of Ash-Greninja and Ferrothorn is great for Dracovish as well.

All in all, I believe that Dracovish is a hugely constricting Pokemon that must be taken care of. As such, I will be voting to BAN the Vish.

Zneon

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[Jordy]

Finally, tagging Kris or The Immortal to implement this suspect test on the ladder.

Also, this thread will be locked for the first 24 hours so that everyone can collect their thoughts.

 

[Jordy]

This thread is now unlocked!

 

[ironwater]

What if you wanted to stall but Vish said FISHIOUS REND!!!

More seriously, I believe this mon hits way too hard for the tier. It basically has two viable sets which are banded and scarfed. (I’ll not talk about whirlpool protective pads shenanigans because it’s bad, don’t play this)

First off, let’s talk about the banded one. It basically has no switch-in. Of course, there’s some water absorber in the tier but half of them don’t have access to a recovery move and are easily weaken by vish’s other moves. Even Gastro, Mantine, Jellicent and Vaporeon who can actually recover won’t be able to live two banded outrage.

Now regarding the non water absorber, Toxapex, Tangrowth and Ferrothorn who are incredible defensive beasts don’t even stand a chance against vish being 2HKO by fishious rend with a bit of cheap damage/hazard pressure (note here that I’m talking about the full def versions which are not that commons because of other threats like Ash-gren). The only mon able to survive two fishious rend are basically Mega Slowbro and Vish himself. Nevertheless, the first lose to crunch with some hazards or a def drop while the second is obliterated by outrage and still take good damages on Fishious rend without being able to recover.

Basically, combining Vish with some slow pivot will allow you to get easy kills on most teams while still being able to beat Vish “counters” with good anticipations.

Regarding the scarfed version, it’s obviously less popular as it can’t score kills on most of the mons cited above and is way more easily walled. However, as it’s less used it can surprise your opponent by outspeeding most offensive mons and still killing them when they have mediocre bulk. In my opinion, the main niche for scarfed Vish is rain teams as the rain boost basically give you a band on Fishious rend (aka the move you’ll click 99% of the time). Thus, you’re able to wash away offensive teams while putting a good pressure on things like Pex and Ferro.

That being said, my conclusion will be pretty straightforward, Dracovish has way too much kill power and deserves a Ban.

If you made it this far, well thank you for reading me and I wish you good luck for getting those reqs.

 

[smokeythabear96]

We pretty much all know what this does by now. I'll mainly be talking about the banded set as I'm sure we can all agree that that's by far the most dangerous; Scarf is left wanting for power if running a Jolly nature but is still naturally outsped by notable offensive mons such as Tapu Koko, Ash Gren and Mega Lopunny if running Adamant. Fun fact, Dracovish actually has a lower attack stat than Ferrothorn, meaning that its Scarfed Jolly Outrage actually wont ever OHKO standard Belly Drum/Clangorous Soul Kommo-o after rocks. I'll come back to this point later.

The banded set has much more power but it is only useful against fat teams. Adamant Banded Draco has such an awful speed tier that some fast walls like Zapdos, Gliscor and Tapu Fini outspeed it with minimal investment. When the metagame was naturally faster with mons like Megagross and Tornadus in the tier, everyone agreed that Draco was a B Tier pokemon, a matchup fish(no pun intended) at best. But since teams have become fatter than Professor Klump's family reunion, Vish naturally has become more threatening as a whole simply because the level of speed is much lower than before.

I think for a wallbreaker to be viable it has to one of two things. If its slow, then it cant be frail and has to have very few switch ins. A great example of this would be Banded Ttar from past gens. In SS OU, defensive Kommo-o was everywhere at the beginning of the generation, which could switch into the tyrant all day. Thats not even taking to account the prevalence of Corviknight as well as Hippodown. This result in Tar dropping to UU for the first time ever. If its frail, then it must have blazing fast speed and an excellent movepool to be able to maim defensive cores. Mixed Infernape from gen 4 comes to mind. Obviously slower breakers are going to threaten defensive teams and faster breakers are going to be deadlier against offense. Although Dragapult isnt going to be breaking through fat cores without multiple dances, its lethal against offense due to its excellent speed and just good enough power to be able to claim multiple KOs against offensive squads. Dracovish is the polar opposite. You're basically playing 5v6 if youre facing HO or even regular offense, with so many of the members outspeeding it that its more or less useless. However, if you run into a generic Clef+Gliscor+Toxapex+Blissey team,you're in for a good game.


All in all, I think that Dracovish being able to take advantage of fat teams is actually good for the meta. This team style has a tendency to result in a metagame that is a slog to play if the power level of the breakers is not sufficient to threaten them. A lot of people feel this way about SS OU, with games routinely taking 100+ turns and devolving into wars of attrition with Toxapex v Toxapex spamming Scald and Knock Off. Like other slow wallbreakers like Mega Gyara or Hoopa-U, Dracovish basically trades in utility against offensive teams for the ability to decimate defense. I think because of this tradeoff that its healthy for the tier. No Ban.

 

[Spyro]

I disagree that CB Dracovish is useless against HO. It is bulky enough to take some hits and threaten an OHKO even if it moves last because Fishious Rend still hits hard coming from what is esentially double band Dracovish because of strong jaw. While it doesn't like to come in on the following it still threatens Cinderace, Landorus-T. Scizor, Mega Mawile, Mega Tyranitar, Magearna, Excadrill, Volcarona. It takes atleast one hit from Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, Greninja, Kartana, Weavile, Gengar, Swampert Mega, Charizard Y and some more but you get the point. It's far from a 5 vs 6 matchup if you face HO.

If I get reqs I will be voting ban. It's very hard to counter this as it just hits too hard and it's also just too restraining on the teambuilder. Water Absorb does indeed prevent it from spamming Fishious Rend to it's heart content but it's still not enough as they don't like taking repeated Crunches or Earthquake in the case of Volcanion.

 

[Kate]

Hi, I'm pretty new to natdex ou, but I've been practicing for a bit now and I feel I have more of a grasp of the meta to give my thoughts on Dracovish.

Vish is not just problematic in the builder anymore, it is consistently straining on almost every single balance or bulkier build, which encompasses a vast majority of the meta. Band has ways to out itself vs every check it has, whether that be slight chip, or clicking outrage at the right time. Vish's solid bulk and typing also means it is hard to punish it for clicking a move incorrectly or locking itself into Outrage. It forces you to play proactive every turn to not allow it free switches, which often leads to poor plays as a result. Scarf, while far less of a problem, can be good vs HO and some styles of balance, as without a water absorber there is no true way to have an out to Vish every single time.

Its factor on the builder is also extremely noteworthy, as it forces players to pick from an extremely limited selection of pokemon that can shrug off its hits consistently. There are few viable immunes to Rend in the tier, and both gastro, seis, and mantine get 2hkoed by outrage. In essence, Vish necessitates on non HO at least 2 checks, as one is simply not enough. These factors lead me to want to vote Ban. Vish is simply too frustrating to account for while playing and building to have a naturally healthy metagame.

The banded set has much more power but it is only useful against fat teams. Adamant Banded Draco has such an awful speed tier that some fast walls like Zapdos, Gliscor and Tapu Fini outspeed it with minimal investment.

I don't get this notion, why would vish be going for a 1v1 vs fini or zapdos? Plus, listing Gliscor, a mon that gets ohkoed regardless, does not make much sense. While I agree that Vish's speed tier is lackluster, it still finds many switchin opportunities on the variety of fatter, slower mons in the tier.

Dracovish is the polar opposite. You're basically playing 5v6 if youre facing HO or even regular offense, with so many of the members outspeeding it that its more or less useless.

This is, once again, an oversight of the bigger picture. Vish has solid bulk that differentiates itself from a multitude of other breakers in the tier, along with having a defensive type that can tank hits from pokemon such as Cinderace or Volcarona. Basically, you are never playing 5v6 vs ho unless your opponent is running six fast dragon types or you decide to switch Vish into a moonblast for some reason.

All in all, I think that Dracovish being able to take advantage of fat teams is actually good for the meta. This team style has a tendency to result in a metagame that is a slog to play if the power level of the breakers is not sufficient to threaten them. A lot of people feel this way about SS OU, with games routinely taking 100+ turns and devolving into wars of attrition with Toxapex v Toxapex spamming Scald and Knock Off.

I do not get this at all, NDOU still has plenty of viable breakers that would still keep fat in check. SS OU only has that problem because of the lack of breakers; mons like heatran don't exist. Comparing these two OU's is quite ludicrous, as they are absolutely nothing alike.

Like other slow wallbreakers like Mega Gyara or Hoopa-U, Dracovish basically trades in utility against offensive teams for the ability to decimate defense. I think because of this tradeoff that its healthy for the tier. No Ban.

Lastly, comparing Mgyara and Hoopa U to Vish is baffling, both of them have major flaws that vish does not and are nowhere near as viable.

 

[Lameflame]

Hi all. While I did achieve reqs, I don't know for sure what I'm voting yet, probably ban but we'll see. I can't imagine this being a close vote anyway, and personally I care a lot more about the reasoning than the result, so here are my thoughts at the moment on Dracovish.

Dracovish is highly polarizing by virtue of its design alone. In its role as a wallbreaker, it has a combination of qualities that cannot fairly be compared to other wallbreakers we have seen in the past. While it does have a greater level of raw power than other extremely powerful breakers, the issue goes beyond its pure breaking ability when you factor in its defensive typing and passable bulk. At worst, Dracovish is typically able to trade one-for-one with its own checks, and most of its defensive checks such as Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Slowbro or Tangrowth, must be tailor made with EVs and proper items to come out on top. In practice, these checks usually require favorable, if not entirely optimal conditions in order to function as checks at all - if a layer of spikes are up, if they lack the right item, or they have taken even minimal chip damage, they are likely getting 2HKO'd on the switch in. Accordingly, if you bring Dracovish to a game where it has ample opportunities to get into play against something slower, and your opponent lacks a water immunity or one of its few sturdy checks, you will claim a kill every time it comes in, period. There is zero scouting required for this pokemon, very little ability to pivot, and few reasons to ever bother predicting if you are the Dracovish user. While it does force progress in games that would otherwise be long and drawn out, doing so in a way that is brainlessly linear does undermine the competitive spirit of the game at times. So for at least these reasons - and there are certainly others - I would go as far as to say that you could decide your vote on this suspect entirely on the basis of Dracovish being inherently broken by design.

As a result of the way this pokemon is designed, I have previously referred to Dracovish as being immune to metagame trends, and I would reaffirm that statement again here. However, there are certainly current trends in the metagame that are working in Dracovish's favor. I think Guard's explanation as provided above does a solid job explaining what those trends are, and I feel no need to repeat them myself. What I will say, however, is that I don't think Dracovish was either "under the radar" or "on the fence" for all this time, and suddenly Future Sight Slowbro or CinderVish or whatever suddenly pushed it over the edge. Purely for my own personal curiosity, I went through and skimmed the old metagame discussion and teambuilding theads from last December-January, and low and behold, people were still including Vish on a checklist of mandatory elements to consider when building, some were calling for a suspect, and current council members noted that Vish was still tearing up the metagame back then. I nearly linked the individual posts, but I'd rather let people speak for themselves. So it's not for nothing that this mon has been doing what it does for ages now, and while I don't deny that it has gotten better in recent weeks, Dracovish's presence in the tier for so long can be argued both ways as to whether or not it is truly too much for the tier to handle.

With all that being said, Dracovish definitely has flaws and I don't think it's intellectually honest to understate them, or fail to list them at all. 249 speed, while fast enough to outspeed relevant walls, is incredibly lacking in this tier. The OP properly listed Kartana, Kyurem, Tapu Fini, Dragapult, and Mega Lopunny as common offensive checks capable of outspeeding and OHKOing Vish. However, you could realistically add a ton of other mons to this list depending on the set (e.g. Mega Lati@s, Specs Koko/Tapu Lele, Z Garchomp, Mega Medicham... etc). For all that Vish is entirely lacking defensive counterplay outside of a small handful of sturdy checks, there is ample offensive counterplay in this tier for the banded set, and quite frankly, Scarf Vish is very mediocre outside of rain. Keeping offensive pressure on something is just as valid a form of counterplay as mindlessly switching X wall into Y threat. Obviously it is up to you whether you think the ability to offensively revenge/pressure/force out Vish offsets the reality of its restricted defensive counterplay, but let's also not pretend that the game is always as linear as it can be argued on paper.

Thanks for reading, wear a mask, vote your conscience, register for the real vote soon if you're over 18, and have a wonderful day/evening.

 

[Ryuji]

Yo,
Since I'm done with reqs (posting them latter, rn I'm also done with my life because it was a hell to do, thanks to RNG that hate me), it's time to explain why Vish, for me, deserve a ban.
The Vish has been always a top thread, since you have to run a check if you don't play HO. Then, there's also the fact that this stuff with a band is capable of 2HKOing a lot of his check, and I don't consider Kartana/Fini as reliable check since they don't have any recovery. Pex is 2HKOing on a roll if he don't run BB, Mantine, Gastrodon and Volcanion get 2HKOed by Outrage and Quake (yeah because he have Quake), Slowbro if forced to run leftovers to avoid a 2HKO (but still get 2HKO by FRend if rocks), and I believe that the most reliable check is RH growth. There's also another issue, the fact that Vish can be paired with powerfull breaker, and that was a big issue, even before AceVish core rise. Before the jully ban, stuff like Gren/Darm-G/Vish was awfull to handle, but nobody talk about the last, for a strange reason. Now there's also the comeback of Ash-Gren, so rn stuff like Pex can't just do they stuff since there are forced to choose which one they want to handle. Same thing with Growth. This meta can't be healthy with Vish, so I will vote ban (don't know when, but I will for sure)

 

[theotherguytm]

Ok, so Dracovish is still doing the same things it was from the word "go" after we banned Dynamax and got the actual metagame started. Why now? What has changed?

I think this is mostly down the fact that balance has finally stabilised as the best playstyle, and Dracovish feasts on balance. In the previous 6 months or so, there have been times where balance was literally unplayable as a playstyle, as certain mons just blew holes in it whatever you tried. Dracovish doesn't appreciate an overabundance of offense, nor too many Gastrodon/Alomomola+Outrage absorber stalls. Which is exactly what Mega Metagross meta encouraged. It's taken a little while, but the tier as a collective has finally woken up to the fact that Dracovish has literally no consistent answers, and winning with it is literally just a case of how many times you can get it in against something it outspeeds.

Ah yes, getting it in. That's an issue. But there are never been a metagame more pivot-heavy than SS in general. New potent U-turn users that force switches like Dragapult, Hydreigon, Cinderace, Corviknight, Mega Lopunny and Rillaboom, the addition of Teleport users like Slowbro and occasionally Clefable or Blissey, Heavy-Duty Boots reducing the wear and tear of pivots, even niche additions like Eject Pack and increased Parting Shot distribution, all of these things make it easier than it has ever been before to get in your breaker of choice and force an answer out of your opponent. And Dracovish simply doesn't have an answer. Your Slowbro might switch into it once and Slack Off spam to not die, but it is an easy switch-in for something else in the meantime, and it will struggle to switch-in twice. Your Rocky Helmet Tangrowth/Ferrothorn might be a good answer for it, but all it can really do is chip it back, so if Dracovish has a teammate that wants your Grass dead, it is as dead as it would be if it had been trapped.

Oh and let's discuss bulk while we're at it. Dracovish is slow yes, but it will surprise you how often it can take a hit and KO back. Dracovish has two weaknesses, Fairy and Dragon. Dragon is actually surprisingly rare as an offensive type in the current metagame, with staples like Garchomp and Hydreigon choosing to forgo it. Only Dragon Dance Dragapult routinely clicks an offensive Dragon move, and Specs Kyurem has the 4* effective Freeze Dry anyway so that's one weakness that will almost never get hit. As for Fairy move users, it's surprising how slow so many of them are. Magearna, Clefable and Mega Mawile will never outrun a Dracovish (unless Magearna is already at +2 or Clef is invested and waiting to Trick a Choice Scarf) and Tapu Fini is slower without large investment. Which leaves fast Fini, Lele, and random Dazzling Gleam mons like certain Zam and Gengar as the only mons that can outrun it and hit it Super Effectively with a Fairy move. On the resists side, it quad resists the very common Water and Fire, and single resists the common Steel. I think it's fair to say Dracovish has an extremely strong defensive typing that in a pinch lets it switch into Heatran, Mega Scizor, Manaphy, Rotoms, Victini, Melmetal and more. Not to mention the many defensive Pokemon like steel birds, Reuniclus, Hippowdon, Zapdos and Gliscor who really struggle to threaten it back if it is healthy. 90/100 physical bulk is not low at all, and 90/80 special bulk is pretty passable for a wallbreaker!

Some calcs regarding bulk

252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 130-153 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 87-102 (27 - 31.6%) -- 57.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 173-204 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 115-136 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 120-142 (37.2 - 44%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
+2 0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 92-108 (28.5 - 33.5%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 205-243 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Future Sight vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 195-231 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 222-262 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I know it's not legal, but you get the point, a base 175 SpA mon can't KO it with its neutral STAB.)
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish in Rain: 291-343 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (wtf Manaphy does absurd damage. Oh, this is about Vish? Oh yeah. Well, enjoy this fun calc of a 4* resist dropping in one move)

So Dracovish might not seem like much a of an Uber at first glance, but it has almost exactly everything it needs. Just enough Attack to make sure Banded/Rain Strong Jaw Rend KOs everything, just enough speed to outrun all the walls it needs to, just enough coverage to kill everything Rend doesn't with one or two good predictions and just enough bulk and a very strong defensive typing making it very tricky to actually OHKO back. Unless its cousin Dracozolt, who was cursed to deal with Hustle misses and no way to break Ground types together with a shoddy defensive typing, Vish has no natural immunities to its one key move, and never misses. That reliability makes Vish very tricky to deal with, and near-impossible to stall out.

TL;DR: HAIL LORD VISH. Ubers, he's coming.

Meme

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 264-312 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Yveltal: 556-655 (70.7 - 83.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
If anyone ever actually makes these calcs happen in practice, let me know.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

I figured this was coming. I probably won't participate in this suspect as I don't touch the game too often (also, 50 games is a lot) , but I'll give some insight.

Dracovish may seem a little average with its stats at a first glance, but anyone who's played the NatDex tier at least once per day should probably know how much of a presence this thing creates. It's signature move, Fishious Rend, rips through a lot of walls, and although it requires that the fish has to be faster to do double the damage, the speed problem is often remedied thanks to a combination of Choice Band and Strong Jaw. Popular stall mons, most notably Ferrothorn and Toxapex, can get easily screwed by this thing, as shown in these calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, impressive. By the way, both of these guys are using defense-boosting natures and are still at high risk of getting smashed to smithereens. Even the type resistance doesn't matter much to this abomination.

Then there's support. Dracovish has found some dangerous teammates, one of which is Pelipper. Pelipper's typing and access to Drizzle has already made it oneof the most efficient rain setters for powerful Swift Swim users such as Mega Swampert or Kingdra. However, Dracovish has a different use for the rain, and it's to boost Fishious Rend. To put this into perspective, let's use a Bold Mega Venusaur to see how much of a difference the rain makes:

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (85 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 83-98 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 4HKO

Even though Mega Venusaur is slow, it's typing and immense bulk are all it needs to comfortably tank Fishious Rend. But what happens in the rain?

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (85 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega in Rain: 124-147 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Noticable difference. Going from a 38.7% chance to 4HKO to a guaranteed 3HKO should speak levels about how crucial the weather can be for Dracovish. And yes, I'm fully aware that this guy could do a lot more with Psychic Fangs, but this is assuming Draco gets locked into Fishious Rend in the rain. It might want to switch out to use Psychic Fangs, but with the damage it produces thank to weather, it might not even need to.

Speaking of switches, Dracovish's Fishious Rend takes an opponent's switching into account as the action also doubles the damage of Fishious Rend. Specifically, trying to reliably switch something into Dracovish is usually not safe at all. In the Gen 8 OU suspect, we've already brought up how Seismitoad was one of the few reliable switches due to Water Absorb, and even then the Dracovish user could correctly predict the frog with ease and retaliate with a Band Outrage.

Something that I feel isn't taken into account as much is Dracovish's typing. With a typing in Water/Dragon, this thing isn't exactly easy to kill since it has very few weaknesses. Its 90/100/80 bulk isn't too bad either, so trying to get this thing off the field as it's netting a lot of potential KOs is already problematic (mind you, not even a Kartana's Leaf Blade can OHKO this bastard). And while we thankfully have access to mons such as Mega-Gardevoir that can nab a guaranteed OHKO on Dracovish, there is still the lingering possibility of Dracovish being scarfed, which can not only out-speed the mega but can downright OHKO it as well.

To summarize, Dracovish's presence poses a lot of problems. It's able to crack into OU's most prominent walls in the game, can abuse Rain to maximize Fishious Rend's damage, can discourage switching, and is not quite easy to kill. I'm pretty certain most of this has already been stated before, but these are personally my thoughts. Once again, I probably won't participate to vote, but a ban is looking pretty favorable.

EDIT: Thanks to TheWeirdGastrodon, I have just realized that I accidentally put some speed into Mega Venusaur, somehow. His calculation without the increased speed can be seen in his post and shows that Dracovish is capable of 2HKO-ing, meaning this bastard is already more absurd than what I've assumed in this post.

 

[GaryGaryGary]

Sigh... Let’s get this over with. Hello Mr. Vish, I see you are comfortable in NatDex OU. Sadly, you can’t stay, so leave... now.

This is pretty much a re-run of last time, but with more Pokemon added to the mix. That doesn’t make this dude any less annoying than last time. Mega Lopunny, Zapdos, Ash-Gren, and Tapu Fini/Bulu. Pokemon that can outspeed it or wall it. Doesn’t matter though, if you’re reckless with switch-ins, than Banded Rend is gonna destroy them all lol.

Scarf is it’s main goal however, so it loses power in exchange for speed. Doesn’t make it any less frightening to deal with as bulky mons or Adamant runs are in fear of Rend 2-3KOing them. Water Absorb mons are good, but Rillaboom and Electric Types screw them over real bad.

And before anyone says or brings up “WeLl WhY aReN’t YoU BAnnIng THe MoVe InStEaD OF BannInG ThE Mon?” Arctovish isn’t broken with Fishious Rend, so why hinder Arctovish? Just Ban it please. It’s not gonna struggle in Ubers considering Scarf Strong Jaw Rend is gonna blast even legendaries. And G-Darm and Ace need a good buddy to hang around, anyways...

 

[Geodude6]

I'm still honestly shocked that Vish wasn't quickbanned in the July banwave, as I felt and still feel that it is centralizing and unhealthy in much the same fashion as Urshifu-S and Darmanitan-G. When I was laddering for the Greninja suspect, Vish stuck out to me as way more problematic than Greninja or even Blastoise and Metagross. theotherguytm mentioned that Dracovish hasn't changed at all since the start of the metagame, and while that's true, I don't really agree with his implication (whether he intended to imply it or not) that Vish is all of a sudden broken where it wasn't before. It was always broken; it's doing the same thing it's done the entire generation, and at least as far as I can tell most players (both here and in Galar dex) considered it broken from the start. Much like USUM Naganadel, even though Dracovish is very predictable, it is extremely good at the one thing it does. It's just not possible to switch in against Vish unless the Pokemon both resists water and has high bulk, and even then it is a daunting task, as Baltimore Beedrills demonstrated earlier in this thread. xDanyul outlined well in the Galar dex Vish suspect how much Dracovish warps teambuilding, and The Diabolic Gift and sparkwings demonstrated how unreliable even a dedicated counter is at beating Vish. Despite the much wider set of tools available in the national dex formats, all of this still holds true here.

Something I also think bears mentioning, since a couple people mentioned it, is that we shouldn't take into consideration how good or not a Pokemon is in Ubers when debating whether to ban it in OU. Volcarona, Skarmory, and Quagsire are all A+ in the Galar dex Ubers VR, but no reasonable person would consider them broken in OU (whether that be Galar or national dex). Meanwhile, Solgaleo, Necrozma-DW, and Zamazenta-C are totally unviable in Ubers, yet I think we can all agree that they would be extremely oppressive in OU if any of them were to be unbanned. The goings-on of the Uber tier are not relevant to the OU banlist, and we should consider only the effect that the mon has in OU.

TL;DR

 

[Lupla]

I figured this was coming. I probably won't participate in this suspect as I don't touch the game too often (also, 50 games is a lot) , but I'll give some insight.

Dracovish may seem a little average with its stats at a first glance, but anyone who's played the NatDex tier at least once per day should probably know how much of a presence this thing creates. It's signature move, Fishious Rend, rips through a lot of walls, and although it requires that the fish has to be faster to do double the damage, the speed problem is often remedied thanks to a combination of Choice Band and Strong Jaw. Popular stall mons, most notably Ferrothorn and Toxapex, can get easily screwed by this thing, as shown in these calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, impressive. By the way, both of these guys are using defense-boosting natures and are still at high risk of getting smashed to smithereens. Even the type resistance doesn't matter much to this abomination.

Then there's support. Dracovish has found some dangerous teammates, one of which is Pelipper. Pelipper's typing and access to Drizzle has already made it oneof the most efficient rain setters for powerful Swift Swim users such as Mega Swampert or Kingdra. However, Dracovish has a different use for the rain, and it's to boost Fishious Rend. To put this into perspective, let's use a Bold Mega Venusaur to see how much of a difference the rain makes:

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (85 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 83-98 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 4HKO

Even though Mega Venusaur is slow, it's typing and immense bulk are all it needs to comfortably tank Fishious Rend. But what happens in the rain?

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (85 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega in Rain: 124-147 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Noticable difference. Going from a 38.7% chance to 4HKO to a guaranteed 3HKO should speak levels about how crucial the weather can be for Dracovish. And yes, I'm fully aware that this guy could do a lot more with Psychic Fangs, but this is assuming Draco gets locked into Fishious Rend in the rain. It might want to switch out to use Psychic Fangs, but with the damage it produces thank to weather, it might not even need to.

Speaking of switches, Dracovish's Fishious Rend takes an opponent's switching into account as the action also doubles the damage of Fishious Rend. Specifically, trying to reliably switch something into Dracovish is usually not safe at all. In the Gen 8 OU suspect, we've already brought up how Seismitoad was one of the few reliable switches due to Water Absorb, and even then the Dracovish user could correctly predict the frog with ease and retaliate with a Band Outrage.

Something that I feel isn't taken into account as much is Dracovish's typing. With a typing in Water/Dragon, this thing isn't exactly easy to kill since it has very few weaknesses. Its 90/100/80 bulk isn't too bad either, so trying to get this thing off the field as it's netting a lot of potential KOs is already problematic (mind you, not even a Kartana's Leaf Blade can OHKO this bastard). And while we thankfully have access to mons such as Mega-Gardevoir that can nab a guaranteed OHKO on Dracovish, there is still the lingering possibility of Dracovish being scarfed, which can not only out-speed the mega but can downright OHKO it as well.

To summarize, Dracovish's presence poses a lot of problems. It's able to crack into OU's most prominent walls in the game, can abuse Rain to maximize Fishious Rend's damage, can discourage switching, and is not quite easy to kill. I'm pretty certain most of this has already been stated before, but these are personally my thoughts. Once again, I probably won't participate to vote, but a ban is looking pretty favorable.

im not gonna say all of this was truly a bad explanation but there are some stuff that someone probably noticed that theres something weird here.

Lets start with the first one that came up in mind. How Was M-Venusaur Faster?. i saw the calc and i was already on a weird spot of thoughts about it so i went for the calc and i noticed that despite M-Venu 100 speed, without investment its slower than vish. This is the actual calc for it


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

and about that Pelipper, i cant deny that it does give vish some support so it doesnt come up short on the few mons that can actually take fishious rends but vish doesnt really fit in rain that much, Manaphy is often a better choice for the wallbreaking job and gives almost the same defensive backup as Dracovish, Scarf sets are the only sets that can fit in this playstyle imo because band isnt needed when your almost matching up the same power as it under rain. Kingdra is outclassed as a Specs Rain Abuser by Ash-Greninja because it doesnt rely on rain to be up all the time, has significantly higher SpA in both forms and brings spikes to abuse. By far the best partner for vish is Cinderace atm because of how well this duo deal with their counters and checks, these 2 are the reason from why Toxapex started to run Bunker to punish the duo and even with that its not enough. Cinderace kills the grasses that give vish trouble such as Tangrowth Kartana Rillaboom and Ferrothorn. Vish technically can go for a rend but its better to just use it agaisnt walls or slow mons like Heatran and Magnezone, Ace also brings U-Turn to bait one of his few answers overall such as HIppowdon and Slowbro,

Seismitoad is mostly outclassed by Gastrodon as a Water/Ground type that has a Water Immunity thanks to the reliable recover that it brings, which means it doesnt fall down to repeated hits in the long run, but Seismitoad has a small niche because of rocks. M-Gardevoir is 95% (or even 100% lol) outclassed by Tapu Lele, Teleport and 100 Speed are decent trades but its still MUCH inferior to Lele, which brings the same wallbreaking powers as M-Gardevoir without wasting a team Mega Slot, also there are better offensive options agaisnt Dracovish, such as Dragapult, Kyurem, Kartana, Rillaboom, Hydreigon, Etc.

i dont know if its actually fine for me to just post this but for now i wanna say that this thing should be getting a Ban because of how much it impacts on most matches which mostly end up in sacrifices or risky plays in order to stop this monster for getting out of hand

 

[Chemical_Jackfruit]

Dracovish is big banworthy and while I still think cinder should've had one this makes more sense.
Balance and stall teams get utterly destroyed from this monster as if they want to stand a single chance they have to use a bulky water and even that doesn't stop dracovish from 2HKO all bulky waters which name isnt mega slowbro.

Vish is commonly used on two types of teams
Acevish and rain however it can be used on basically all teams thanks to the fact it destroys the fat teams the meta currently runs and can come in on tran,gliscor or clef and basically get a free kill.
Another thing that makes it great is that it has decent defensive utility, it doesnt have the best but something it does have is being able to take one shot from most offensive pokemon and being one of the best switch ins to itself.

 

[Link loyan]

just think about a Dracovish in tailwind, rain, 1 layer of spikes and with adaband... and then think about a switchin... sure, this wont happen very often and if your opponent has a water absorb you'll have done it for nothing but if you just got Rain you can even twohitko the mighty physdef Alomomola and with tailwind you will outspeed very many offensive threats and onehit them.

Then, look and see the defense-Stats... 90/100/80 is great for taking resisted hits and just break some teams in two bits. What is the biggest problem to many balanced teams? Heatran. what comes in and takes advantage? Dracovish...
So we could think about suspecting Heatran after Dracovish because it also is great against Teams without Vish, it can switch in and force switches it can take care of with magma storm, taunt and toxic. But I guess I talked enough about Heatran...

How do you get Vish in the Game?
With slow pivots (Slowbro, Blissey, M-Scizor, ...)
Just usual switchins on defensive mons
Predicts on Offensive mons so you can get in on resisted moves
HEATRAN! (doesnt fit in offensive or defensive Type of mons)

(My Reqs...)

Sigh... Let’s get this over with. Hello Mr. Vish, I see you are comfortable in NatDex OU. Sadly, you can’t stay, so leave... now.

This is pretty much a re-run of last time, but with more Pokemon added to the mix. That doesn’t make this dude any less annoying than last time. Mega Lopunny, Zapdos, Ash-Gren, and Tapu Fini/Bulu. Pokemon that can outspeed it or wall it. Doesn’t matter though, if you’re reckless with switch-ins, than Banded Rend is gonna destroy them all lol.

Scarf is it’s main goal however, so it loses power in exchange for speed. Doesn’t make it any less frightening to deal with as bulky mons or Adamant runs are in fear of Rend 2-3KOing them. Water Absorb mons are good, but Rillaboom and Electric Types screw them over real bad.

And before anyone says or brings up “WeLl WhY aReN’t YoU BAnnIng THe MoVe InStEaD OF BannInG ThE Mon?” Arctovish isn’t broken with Fishious Rend, so why hinder Arctovish? Just Ban it please. It’s not gonna struggle in Ubers considering Scarf Strong Jaw Rend is gonna blast even legendaries. And G-Darm and Ace need a good buddy to hang around, anyways...

Why aren't you just banning the move? Well... did we ban hurricane instead of Torn-T? I don't think so...

 

[Jordy]

Hey! Please make sure not to double post as per the rules, and your reqs should be posted in this thread, or they won't be counted.

 

[thorium-90]

Anything without resistance or water absorb is not a really viable counterplay. It requires zero (minimal) setup. It is just too powerful to play outside of Anything Goes.

I think this comes down to the numbers. I focus on rain teams. I did some of the breakdowns below Didn't want to spam with numbers so I summarized), but to summarize with adamant/modest nature in the rain:

• It is 3.55 times as strong as Mega Swampert’s waterfall
  • 1.77 If it doesn’t go first
• .7 times of Choice Specs Kyogre’s Water Spout at full power (150 BP)
  • (~90% of choice specs hydro pump, but with 100% accuracy)

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I don't think there's really too much to discuss, due to the nature of Dracovish and Fishious Rend. It's only being tested because of one move, but that move is far and beyond too broken for this metagame. This is a brainless Pokemon, which highly restricts the meta and requires no skill to use. Given the right circumstances, its great against both offense and stall, but not at the same time. Banded Fishious Rend ruins stall, and Scarf Fishious Rend is great against offense, both sets are also great against balanced and bulky offense builds alike. Boosted by rain only makes this issue more prominent against all archetypes.

There's simply too much going for this Pokemon, with very little counter-play. It takes any skill or game plan out of the question, and for this reason I'll be voting ban.

 

[Bobsican]

We all know Dracovish hits ridiculously hard to the point that only Alomomola can avoid a 2HKO from any move it may use on any scenario (Bar crits and Future Sight support) if it isn't chipped (Oh NVM, it can be 2HKO'd on rain), but I would like to talk a bit over an interesting replay and trick I got with Dracovish...

At first, this was originally intended more as a sort of meme tactic out of how unreliable it is on paper, but as we can see here, Pelipper not only can provide rain to it and act as an abusable pivot, but it can also run Tailwind for a gimmicky set that allows Dracovish to reach a solid speed tier of 498, which only leaves as realistic outspeeding options beyond priority (Most notably Rillaboom's) to Mega Swampert on rain, Scarf Kartana/Terrakion/Greninja (The last one ain't doing enought in return unless Vish is very chipped), and the occasional Sand Rush Excadrill (Which is Pelipper bait to regain momentum with Tailwind and weather quite often), this combined with the power it can afford with Choice Band and how Pelipper is capable of easily switching in multiple times in a match to repeat this, leads into Dracovish not even being easy to revenge kill, let alone switch into, often allowing Vish to take two mons, maybe more if the opposing team can't outspeed it after this. As we can see on the last turn of the replay, even while heavily chipped Dracovish can take on Mega Lopunny's Quick Attack and KO in return.

I'm aware that on a rain team Manaphy is a better wallbreaker normally, but unlike it, Dracovish doesn't need a turn to set-up, and out of this it's a better Tailwind abuser as it doesn't waste turns, it just comes in and immediately tries to KO something, which is why it's able to often take more than one Pokémon from the opposing team if this manages to catch the opponent off-guard when it loses just a bit of momentum, which is quite easy to do in the long run with enought pivots, which also lets it fit at times on non-rain teams.

Overall, I wouldn't mind at all if it got banned, not only it lacks enought legitimate defensive counterplay options, it can also circumvent on multiple ways offensive ones with some support, as not only it can be supported with Tailwind, Paralysis support from the likes of Rotom and Clefable, or even Sticky Web on some cases allows Dracovish to just outspeed and sweep teams in the long run.

The act of having to run a pretty specific Pokémon with situationally questionable checking reliability like Alomomola, (Which only fits on certain teams) to have a legitimate switch-in, or otherwise have to guess the move it's going to use while having back-up options (Volcanion can't take Outrage, Slowbro dislikes Crunch, Toxapex can get 2HKO'd from Psychic Fangs even from the Scarf set with some chip, etc.), often with such pivots becoming quite chipped, or straight up being KO'd eventually in an attempt to disrupt its strategy that hinders skill seems to be not healthy for the metagame, so I would recommend banning it so the metagame can become more diverse in viable options for it and healthier.

 

[Batzi]

I did a few calcs (in rain) on some bulky mons and calcs on water absorb users.

Calcs

Obviously this doesn't include outside of rain but this goes to show how ridiculous the damage is. The crazy thing is, even outside of rain it can 2HKO a lot of things with rocks/spikes up which is why it's so good to pair with ferro.

 

[R8]

Dracovish is one of the worst mons you could imagine for a metagame. It strains teambuilding way too much, can easily beat his counters with little team support, and sometimes doesn't even need skill to get free kills against some teams. I don't understand why you would keep it in any tier not named ubers: if you want a skill based, diverse metagame, with as many viable strategies as possible, you shouldn't allow a pokemon able to 2HKO among the bulkiest pokemons of the game with a resisted move.

That's why i'm gonna vote BAN.

You probably already saw this, but it's funny so i put it here

Tbh, i love how absurd this mon is. I think i needed to see a pokemon able to do that at least once in my life. Thank you dracovish, it was nice to meet you.

 

[Avery]

Hello, I figured it would be ideal to give my thoughts on Dracovish. To clarify; I speak for myself, not for the council as a whole.

As the metagame has progressed since Ash-Greninja's reintroduction, we have seen a drastic decrease in the pacing of teams. Most teams rely on AshGren or Cinderace as their main form of speed control, as the metagame as a whole is generally slower and bulkier. Dracovish takes advantage of the bulky metagame far too well in my opinion, being able to 2HKO most water resists when factoring in hazards. Granted, Choice Band Dracovish does have a glaring few issues such as its lackluster speed tier leaving it helpless against not only opposing offense, but now Tapu Fini, Kyurem, and Mega Lopunny. Baneful Bunker Toxapex and Gastrodon rising in usage irritate Dracovish. However, the ease at which Dracovish switches into play courtesy of its terrific typing allowing it to naturally check and threaten staples like Heatran, Gliscor, Corviknight, and Hippowdon among others is ridiculous given the current pace of the tier. Every team is at risk of falling to Choice Band Dracovish unless you have the aforementioned Baneful Bunker Toxapex, a Water immune such as Gastrodon, or you are using a fast paced offense that suffocates Dracovish. Even if you have one of the few defensive answers, Dracovish can predict the Gastrodon, Seismitoad, or Mantine with a few Choice Band Dragon Rushes (since it is a fairly obvious play after all), and it can just 2HKO Baneful Bunker Toxapex with hazard support or Future Sight support given how valuable Future Sight is right now. Faster teams, however, can just as easily fold to Choice Scarf Dracovish, since the lackluster speed is somewhat remedied, only being outsped by Dragapult. As a sidenote, due to the ever present Water resistant Regenerator cores, I really do not believe Choice Scarf Dracovish excels in this metagame at all. The exception would be rain teams, where it is a near staple to prevent opposing Dracovish from running you over. All in all however, the current pace of the tier and the amount of opportunity Dracovish has to come into play to wreak havoc is absurd, and absolutely warrants a BAN in my opinion.