Announcement National Dex Suspect 4: Dirty Computer [Mega Metagross]

[Soulthief1412]

Rotom-H is not Mega Metagross check, Just run Zen Headbutt. Its not my fault that there are people dumb enough to not run it.

Adamant full atk Mega Metagross(just to show that rotom-heat is a check dont run adamant)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 192-226 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If offensive you kill
252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

if defensive you will o wisp and basically criple it super hard
So rotom heat is very much a check
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

 

[Sputnik]

Adamant full atk Mega Metagross(just to show that rotom-heat is a check dont run adamant)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 192-226 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If offensive you kill
252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

if defensive you will o wisp and basically criple it super hard
So rotom heat is very much a check
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Except, purely offensive Rotom-H is very rare because the teams that use it usually need it for its defensive presence, and most defensive sets don't run Will-O-Wisp. Toxic, Pain Split, and HP Ice are all more common options.

0 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Rotom-Heat: 148-175 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

This is, of course, not factoring in hax, which makes Rotom-H's chances even less appealing.

My most important point is how was it allowed in gen 6 and should be baned now(?) like i don't get it back then the other pokemon in comparison where not as good as now with new powerfull pokemon like galarian darmanitan, tapu fini, magearna, kommo-o,... so how can it be, that back then it was ok, but now that we have similair strength it's suddenly not ok. I heard the argument that the new powerfull pokemon enable it more like ash gren profiting of everything running phys def for metagross, but in my opinion this isn't at a point where it makes metagross broken.
So i vote no ban.

I also highly object to this argument. There is no reason AT ALL to take what has happened in previous generations into account in a suspect that is happening in the here and now. Mega Metagross is being suspected on its merits as an issue in Generation 8 National Dex. We should not be looking at past generations and say that it is fine now because it's not broken in a previous generation. Also it was banned in Gen 7, so this argument has validity issues in the first place.

I haven't gotten reqs yet Love you guard but that team is making ladder hellish rn, but once I do you can be sure I will be voting ban. The thing has coverage and power for days, Toxic sets are appearing to cripple its checks, and most balance teams just can't handle it at all if it gets to +1, which is not an uncommon occurrence. Not a whole lot to say that hasn't already been said.

 

[KirbCena]

I dont think its banworthy.

Even though it does hit for some hefty numbers and has pretty great bulk,it is easily shutdown by common pokemon such as aegislash or rocky helmet Lando. It is great at what it does which is wallbreak, but imo we need more breakers in the current meta, not less. This mon does make it tough for stall, but it should. If people want games to take 50+ turns so they have to run weaker moves with high PP, they can just go back to gen 2. The prevalence of stall even in the lower ladders obviously means the game needs more hard hitting mons.

But as far as MGross, offensively its checked by Rotom H, Dracovish(!) Scarf Lando, Aegislash, Black Glasses Bisharp, Volcanion, Specs or Protean Gren, DD Dragapult and ESPECIALLY HDB Volc. Obviously these are all popular picks(maybe except for Volcanion) so most teams have at least one mon that can come in and force it out. Having Mega Gross in when Volc comes in can often mean gg right on the spot. So I dont quite see how its broken. Ive played against it plenty of times on the ladder and ive never thought it was broken.

The problem with those offensive checks is that none of them can actually switchin or reliably check Megagross (you also kinda glossed over the fact that there's hardly any consistent defensive counterplay either):

- doesn't take ZHB well at all and a flinch or MM attack raise makes it a non-check.

- Scarf is terrible. It gets outsped by every other scarfer and can't break any bulky grasses or waters like Slowbro and Tangrowth. Scarf Rend doesn't even OHKO, regardless of Jolly or Adamant nature due to MMeta's immense bulk.

- Scarf and Rocky Helmet sets are garbage; they lose to common stuff like G-Darm and stuff they used to check like Lopunny forces it out now due to new mechanics. Not to mention they still take a lot of damage after Intimidate and can't even OHKO MMeta back if you're running the defensive set.

- Gets worn down easily and takes a shitton from EQ. Not to mention this already struggles in a meta where Ash-Gren is everywhere AND is Mega Metagross' favorite partner.

- Sucker Punch can't OHKO without an SD, and Megagross just chunks it or outright murders it with EQ and Hammer Arm respectively.

- Neither can switchin and Tapu Fini is everywhere to beat back Ash-Gren and Defog its Spikes away.

- not relevant enough in the meta and it has no recovery.

- has to waste its Z-move to attempt to OHKO just to be walled by common teammates like Phys. Def Tangrowth.

- Every attack that isn't Mash just damages this way too much to be a reliable answer. Fini is everywhere too, which means the bulky variant will struggle even more, especially since it can't fish for burns with Flame Body while Misty Terrain is active.

We already have enough ways of beating stall too. Rain has started ditching Vish for Manaphy, and Tapu Fini prevents stall from progressing much at all. It's worth noting too that a lot of the tier's best stallbreakers, such as Tapu Lele and Mega Mawile are pretty difficult to justify right now because they lose to or are outclassed by Megagross among other things. Metagross itself is NOT a stallbreaker, but its vast coverage, speed, and bulk among other things makes it hard to justify alternative options as mentioned before.

Even if we didn't have enough stallbreakers, it's not really a valid argument as we're not focusing on how the meta will be in the future without MMeta, but how it is in the current meta.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

My most important point is how was it allowed in gen 6 and should be baned now(?) like i don't get it back then the other pokemon in comparison where not as good as now with new powerfull pokemon like galarian darmanitan, tapu fini, magearna, kommo-o,... so how can it be, that back then it was ok, but now that we have similair strength it's suddenly not ok. I heard the argument that the new powerfull pokemon enable it more like ash gren profiting of everything running phys def for metagross, but in my opinion this isn't at a point where it makes metagross broken.
So i vote no ban.
[/QUOTE]

Although we're only focusing on the current generation, I'll attempt to give a logical explanation; in Gen 6, Mega Evolutions did not get the speed boost on their first turn. Granted, that was the only thing (and I think abilities didn't come into affect on that turn either), but the lack of the speed boost on the first turn could make all the difference in how healthy your Mega Evolution would be. Metagross is not exactly fast, so I imagine not getting that speed boost upon mega-evolving could set it up in a really bad position against those such as Landorus-T or both Mega Zards.

Now that Metagross immediately gets the speed boost (thanks to Gen 7), it's a problem. A very big one at that. And even with the addition of new mons from Gen 7, Mega Metagross is still capable of shining way too brilliantly. Many of the popular Gen 7 newcomers, including all the Tapus (why though?), UBs, and Toxapex actually get screwed pretty hard by this thing. So even with new Pokemon running around in OU, Mega Metagross didn't exactly face any new counter-play from the new generation while it also got the speed buff.

Now with new generations, Mega Metagross doesn't just have the attack and bulk; it's now also got speed. It's incredibly well-rounded for its job, and if there are only two sure-fire answers to it, then we have to look into this monstrosity.

P.S. Torkoal is another great check but that only makes three checks in total, which isn't a good sign. And unless I face more sun teams that actually use the damn turtle, Torkoal is kind of niche.

 

[smokeythabear96]

The problem with those offensive checks is that none of them can actually switchin or reliably check Megagross (you also kinda glossed over the fact that there's hardly any consistent defensive counterplay either):

- doesn't take ZHB well at all and a flinch or MM attack raise makes it a non-check.

- Scarf is terrible. It gets outsped by every other scarfer and can't break any bulky grasses or waters like Slowbro and Tangrowth. Scarf Rend doesn't even OHKO, regardless of Jolly or Adamant nature due to MMeta's immense bulk.

- Scarf and Rocky Helmet sets are garbage; they lose to common stuff like G-Darm and stuff they used to check like Lopunny forces it out now due to new mechanics. Not to mention they still take a lot of damage after Intimidate and can't even OHKO MMeta back if you're running the defensive set.

- Gets worn down easily and takes a shitton from EQ. Not to mention this already struggles in a meta where Ash-Gren is everywhere AND is Mega Metagross' favorite partner.

- Sucker Punch can't OHKO without an SD, and Megagross just chunks it or outright murders it with EQ and Hammer Arm respectively.

- Neither can switchin and Tapu Fini is everywhere to beat back Ash-Gren and Defog its Spikes away.

- not relevant enough in the meta and it has no recovery.

- has to waste its Z-move to attempt to OHKO just to be walled by common teammates like Phys. Def Tangrowth.

- Every attack that isn't Mash just damages this way too much to be a reliable answer. Fini is everywhere too, which means the bulky variant will struggle even more, especially since it can't fish for burns with Flame Body while Misty Terrain is active.

We already have enough ways of beating stall too. Rain has started ditching Vish for Manaphy, and Tapu Fini prevents stall from progressing much at all. It's worth noting too that a lot of the tier's best stallbreakers, such as Tapu Lele and Mega Mawile are pretty difficult to justify right now because they lose to or are outclassed by Megagross among other things. Metagross itself is NOT a stallbreaker, but its vast coverage, speed, and bulk among other things makes it hard to justify alternative options as mentioned before.

Even if we didn't have enough stallbreakers, it's not really a valid argument as we're not focusing on how the meta will be in the future without MMeta, but how it is in the current meta.

I actually think it has defensive counter play. I normally just play offense so that were some mons I could think of that offensively checked it, but defensively common mons like ferrothorn,Rocky helmet tangrowth, toxic orb gliscor, seismitoad and gastrodon easily wall Metagross. Idk I think of Metagross as kind of a matchup mon, similar to how Clangorous Kommo was last gen. You have some games where it could easily pick up 3 kos after a boost, and then you had some teams with Magearna/Fini that easily made it nothing more than a sack. Megagross is in the same light. It will have its way with a team with fat mons such as Clef, Chansey etc but you could take that same megagross and put him against a mega pert rain team and he’ll just be nothing but free stealth rocks on the switch. Gross also heavily struggles against sun due to its only decent Sp Def, and it’s typing means it doesn’t do that great against Sand Rush drill+Hippo teams, which are also fairly common. My most used teams for Nat Dex and gen 7 consists of Mega Manectric, rocky helmet lando, banded hoopa u, leftovers bulky volcanion, eviolite doublade and scarf protean gren and i actually didn’t know why they were suspect testing Metagross until I came to this thread. I do understand that it has lots of coverage, but Metagross has always had 4MSS and it needs MM. All it’s most powerful moves require contact, which can easily be punished by mons such as Static Zapdos, Ferrothorn, Tankchomp etc( all of these mons also have utility outside checking Megagross btw) so I still don’t see the reason for the ban. If its coverage and bulk are the problem, then by that logic Magearna should have been banned by now bc it has an even better typing than metagross, snowballs out of hand quickly on anything it threatens out(any dragon dark or fighting type), and can pick and choose its checks to an even greater degree due to boosting moves and Z Crystals.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

If its coverage and bulk are the problem, then by that logic Magearna should have been banned by now bc it has an even better typing than metagross, snowballs out of hand quickly on anything it threatens out(any dragon dark or fighting type), and can pick and choose its checks to an even greater degree due to boosting moves and Z Crystals.
[/QUOTE]

All the shit Magearna can pull off in OU was all the reason I needed to root for Alva in the Mechanical Marvel movie.

 

[smokeythabear96]

If its coverage and bulk are the problem, then by that logic Magearna should have been banned by now bc it has an even better typing than metagross, snowballs out of hand quickly on anything it threatens out(any dragon dark or fighting type), and can pick and choose its checks to an even greater degree due to boosting moves and Z Crystals.

All the shit Magearna can pull off in OU was all the reason I needed to root for Alva in the Mechanical Marvel movie.
[/QUOTE]
Right, AV tank,trick room sweeper, shift gear sweeper with pretty much unlimited coverage AND it was a special attacker so immune to scald burn spam and also toxic.

 

[J1mm1P]

I actually think it has defensive counter play. I normally just play offense so that were some mons I could think of that offensively checked it, but defensively common mons like ferrothorn,Rocky helmet tangrowth, toxic orb gliscor, seismitoad and gastrodon easily wall Metagross. Idk I think of Metagross as kind of a matchup mon, similar to how Clangorous Kommo was last gen. You have some games where it could easily pick up 3 kos after a boost, and then you had some teams with Magearna/Fini that easily made it nothing more than a sack. Megagross is in the same light. It will have its way with a team with fat mons such as Clef, Chansey etc but you could take that same megagross and put him against a mega pert rain team and he’ll just be nothing but free stealth rocks on the switch. Gross also heavily struggles against sun due to its only decent Sp Def, and it’s typing means it doesn’t do that great against Sand Rush drill+Hippo teams, which are also fairly common. My most used teams for Nat Dex and gen 7 consists of Mega Manectric, rocky helmet lando, banded hoopa u, leftovers bulky volcanion, eviolite doublade and scarf protean gren and i actually didn’t know why they were suspect testing Metagross until I came to this thread. I do understand that it has lots of coverage, but Metagross has always had 4MSS and it needs MM. All it’s most powerful moves require contact, which can easily be punished by mons such as Static Zapdos, Ferrothorn, Tankchomp etc( all of these mons also have utility outside checking Megagross btw) so I still don’t see the reason for the ban. If its coverage and bulk are the problem, then by that logic Magearna should have been banned by now bc it has an even better typing than metagross, snowballs out of hand quickly on anything it threatens out(any dragon dark or fighting type), and can pick and choose its checks to an even greater degree due to boosting moves and Z Crystals.

This is wrong. Every mon has defensive counterplay. MGross limits the teambuilder to a very unhealthy extent, since you are basically forced to run PhysDef Tangrowth/Ferrothorn on every team just to hopefully stand a chance against him when he appears. 4MSS only applies to a mon where not having a 5th move prevents it from doing its role effectively. This is not the case for MGross, as choosing any coverage move makes him the wallbreaker that he is. MGross is nearly impossible to switch into, and a single boost from Meteor Mash can turn its counters into checks and its checks into non-checks. Its stats and the fact that it 2HKOes nearly everything are the reason it's being suspect tested. You can't even compare Magearna to MGross since they have completely different roles. Magearna is a setup sweeper and MGross is a wallbreaker. Both have great coverage, but this doesn't change the fact that they are totally different.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Grass Knot

So me and Solaros were talking about old coverage options Metagross ran in ORAS but then it hit me. What happens if you put both lure moves on the same set. Turns out MixGross is a real threat and basically destroys teams that relie on Mega Scizor to beat it. But the biggest draw to this set is that it beats Tangrowth without taking RH chip and 2HKOs Mega Slowbro and Hippowdon on the switch. Honestly when I made this set I thought it was going to be a funny meme but it quite literally destroys a huge amount of teams who were only building with the standard set in mind.

What I'm basically saying is that even if the meta has adapted to it, It can adapt back and do it harder. Also stop comparing Mega Metagross to Magearna, they are very different pokemon. Magearna might be scary but it can't beat everything at once. SG is scary against offensive teams but less effective against Balance teams. CM Pain Split is great against Balance and Stall teams but its slow speed leaves it vulnerable to Offensive teams. Mega Metagross only needs one set to put heavy pressure on both.

 

[smokeythabear96]

This is wrong. Every mon has defensive counterplay. MGross limits the teambuilder to a very unhealthy extent, since you are basically forced to run PhysDef Tangrowth/Ferrothorn on every team just to hopefully stand a chance against him when he appears. 4MSS only applies to a mon where not having a 5th move prevents it from doing its role effectively. This is not the case for MGross, as choosing any coverage move makes him the wallbreaker that he is. MGross is nearly impossible to switch into, and a single boost from Meteor Mash can turn its counters into checks and its checks into non-checks. Its stats and the fact that it 2HKOes nearly everything are the reason it's being suspect tested. You can't even compare Magearna to MGross since they have completely different roles. Magearna is a setup sweeper and MGross is a wallbreaker. Both have great coverage, but this doesn't change the fact that they are totally different.

All I’m saying is Magearna can easily set up on any dark dragon or fighting type, AND it gets an ability that boosts its SP Atk 100% of the time even if something is sacked in front of it vs Metagross’s measly 20% chance on MM. Ferrothorn is already a very common Pokémon, it’s not like people just started running it for metagross.Metagross is neutered by burn from scald spam as well as intimidate. I just don’t see how a mega that seismitoad shuts down so easily can be considered to be constricting. The calcs people are putting up are assuming that mega gross is at 100% HP like entry hazards aren’t a thing. Rocks+ minor chip easily puts it in range of sucker punch, and even weak priority like shadow sneak from aegislash puts a large dent in the computer. Even Adamant Zen Headbutt fails to 2HKO seismitoad after lefties, and given how high it’s usage is I don’t even run Megagross as steel+psychic is still a poor stab combination to have. What this mon does do is shut down clefable from wish passing all game, and given how prevalent that is as of late, I wouldn’t be surprised if it got banned bc god forbid you have something in the metagame that can OHKO clef. Like I said I understand Megagross is strong but it’s very rarely a wincon. Swords dance lucha+ a tapu was actually much stronger last meta than metagross is in this one, as it’s 350 speed is good but it still gets forced out by faster threats and it has no surefire way to boost its good but not excellent attack. If it goes adamant, it loses a ton of speed and gets forced out by both the zards, hydreigon and chomp, all of which can OHKO( especially hydreigon hitting on the weaker sp def) and with jolly, you lose a lot of power on mons that resist your stab. Getting forced out by Zard Y is especially bad, as even resists aren’t going to be happy about taking a fire blast in the sun.What people aren’t realizing is that while there’s not many offensive mons that can switch in on gross, there’s not many offensive mons it can switch in on either. It’s typing burdens it with dark ghost fire and ground weaknesses, and while it has a toxic immunity, it has a neutrality to bug meaning u turns will do quite a bit, especially before it evolves.

 

[smokeythabear96]

Magearna might be scary but it can't beat everything at once.

That’s true, but neither can Megagross. That set you just posted won’t get very far against a sun offense team, or even rain unless you catch pert on the switch. Like I said I play pretty much all offense and I’ve never felt pressured by it. Gross actually invites in dangerous offensive mons like volcarona,who can live any one hit with HDB as well as the following BP, and recover the damage w/ giga drain once gross is forced to go to its bulky water teammate. Like I said earlier it’s really a matchup mon, but it really just doesn’t have the typing to where it can hit everything for SE damage while shrugging off hits simply bc of all its weaknesses. It really just threatens fatter balance teams where it can come in in a fat passive mon and throw off a couple of powerful hits. Offense generally has multiple mons that can outspeed and chip it into range of a switch in.

 

[KirbCena]

I actually think it has defensive counter play. I normally just play offense so that were some mons I could think of that offensively checked it, but defensively common mons like ferrothorn,Rocky helmet tangrowth, toxic orb gliscor, seismitoad and gastrodon easily wall Metagross. Idk I think of Metagross as kind of a matchup mon, similar to how Clangorous Kommo was last gen. You have some games where it could easily pick up 3 kos after a boost, and then you had some teams with Magearna/Fini that easily made it nothing more than a sack. Megagross is in the same light. It will have its way with a team with fat mons such as Clef, Chansey etc but you could take that same megagross and put him against a mega pert rain team and he’ll just be nothing but free stealth rocks on the switch. Gross also heavily struggles against sun due to its only decent Sp Def, and it’s typing means it doesn’t do that great against Sand Rush drill+Hippo teams, which are also fairly common. My most used teams for Nat Dex and gen 7 consists of Mega Manectric, rocky helmet lando, banded hoopa u, leftovers bulky volcanion, eviolite doublade and scarf protean gren and i actually didn’t know why they were suspect testing Metagross until I came to this thread. I do understand that it has lots of coverage, but Metagross has always had 4MSS and it needs MM. All it’s most powerful moves require contact, which can easily be punished by mons such as Static Zapdos, Ferrothorn, Tankchomp etc( all of these mons also have utility outside checking Megagross btw) so I still don’t see the reason for the ban. If its coverage and bulk are the problem, then by that logic Magearna should have been banned by now bc it has an even better typing than metagross, snowballs out of hand quickly on anything it threatens out(any dragon dark or fighting type), and can pick and choose its checks to an even greater degree due to boosting moves and Z Crystals.

- Hammer Arm and Magnezone are pretty common, so this isn't a very good check.

- Ice Punch variants or an attack raise means this isn't consistent either.

- This hasn't been relevant since the start of the meta. It's definitely NOT a good check regardless, as ZHB does 38-45 % damage.

- aside from the fact you brought up using Manectric, Doublade, and Volcanion in NatDex and Gen 7 OU, the fact that you even suggested this as a check shows you have no idea what you're talking about. This is NOT a check either, as ZHB 2HKOES regardless of investment.

+ - Literally nobody runs these two together in the current meta. Excadrill just dies to EQ while Hippowdon pretty much needs Rocky Helmet to do anything, which can hurt its tanking ability against other threats.

- Ice Punch 2HKOEs and once HDB are removed, this just gets 2HKOED after SR. Relying on a 30% chance isn't reliable either. Toxic variants of Metagross exist as well.

- TankChomp sucks in the current meta, as it lacks recovery and doesn't matchup well against breakers like Darm-G.


Also, MMeta does NOT suffer from 4MMS. If you read my earlier post in this thread and Jordy's post in the VR thread you'll get a better understanding of why.


Also, why the fuck are we bringing up other pokemon? I'm pretty sure the point of this thread is to discuss MMeta, not whether or not Gen 7 Magearna and Dracovish are broken. We shouldn't even be comparing them to Metagross because they have actual checks and counters and don't automatically pressure every team in the meta regardless of archetype.

 

[Funbot28]

Might as well as make a post here briefly outlining my own personal thoughts / opinions since they defer from that of most of the council's.

I will personally be voting Do Not Ban on this suspect as I personally feel that while Mega Gross is definitely a centralizing and dangerous threat in the current metagame, the tier still has adequate enough counterplay to Gross enough for it to not be too overbearing in my eyes. Common balance / BO picks such as RH Tangrowth, RH Slowbro, Rotom-H (which yes is a more shaky check), Aegislash, Corviknight (which might not do much to gross, but pivots out and brings in a revenge killer that can threaten it out), Ferrothorn, and a rising pick in Alomomola can annoy Gross depending on what it chooses to run on it's last slot in certain cases. Especially when considering picks like RH Growth and Bro, who chip Gross surprisingly well as it tries to spam its coverage moves and leave it in range to revenge killers like Ash-Gren, Scarf Gdarm (if it is not running BPunch), Heat Wave Tornadus-T, and Scarf Hydreigon. While I acknowledge that yes hax can play in Gross's favor more often then not especially when considering Atk raises from Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt flinches, I feel that people over-exaggerate these scenarios a tad bit especially when Gross faces against teams with switchins that are constantly chipping it down whether via Rocky Helmet (Growth, Bro, Corviknight, Mola, etc...) or Iron Barbs (ie: Ferro). Unless the Gross player is playing perfectly with their prediction game, mindlessly spamming STAB moves in order to reap the benefits of the moves secondary effects is not as mindless as ppl make it out to be imo especially with the rise of passive chip damage on the physically defensive pivots within our metagame. The last slot on Gross's movepool is also a great topic of discussion, as it can indeed bypass certain counters depending on what it chooses to run, however no matter what the case is there will always be a check to a certain Gross set depending on that last coverage slot (either Hammer Arm, Toxic, Bullet Punch, Ice Punch, EQ mainly), which is something that I feel more ppl need to acknowledge when assessing Gross's matchup versus the common threats of the tier.

I know I probably speak for the vocal minority in this suspect and I am glad we are suspecting Gross cause I can attest to it's centralizing presence on the tier for sure, however I cannot come to the same conclusion that it applies as much of a strain on teambuilding as threats like Ash-Gren, GDarm (which I know ppl feel is also broken but thats not relevant to this discussion), Kartana, and Mega Lopp (to a lesser degree).

 

[Dragonillis]

tag Matiss98 because i like him and it's the first suspect test i succes (without counting OM) c:

I will vote do not ban

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

After reading Funbot 28's post and reasoning, I am now re-considering my stance on the Mega Metagross suspect. I think it's worth noting that during my suspect laddering that out of 41 games, only two teams were using the mega. And although both of those teams wrecked me with Metagross, I don't run the average competitive team so me being thoroughly destroyed is more attributed to my play-style. In short, if there were only two out of the 41 opponents that actually decided to use Mega Metagross, either something is keeping its usage limited or I just had some really weird match-making.

 

[Robot7620]

After reading Funbot 28's post and reasoning, I am now re-considering my stance on the Mega Metagross suspect. I think it's worth noting that during my suspect laddering that out of 41 games, only two teams were using the mega. And although both of those teams wrecked me with Metagross, I don't run the average competitive team so me being thoroughly destroyed is more attributed to my play-style. In short, if there were only two out of the 41 opponents that actually decided to use Mega Metagross, either something is keeping its usage limited or I just had some really weird match-making.

Natdex ladder is very wacky, so only running into 2 metagross doesn't really mean anything.
And since you don't run the average competitive team, what you're basically implying is mega-metagross forces you to run the norm, to be able to beat it, which is kind of... boring and screams unhealthy.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

Natdex ladder is very wacky, so only running into 2 metagross doesn't really mean anything.
And since you don't run the average competitive team, what you're basically implying is mega-metagross forces you to run the norm, to be able to beat it, which is kind of... boring and screams unhealthy.

So, to clarify, my competitive team (and probably the only team I've run since Gen 7) consists of Mega Beedrill, Torkoal, Venusaur, Conkeldurr, Zapdos, and Umbreon. Basically, I'm saying it's my sole fault for sticking with this team that Mega Metagross was able to destroy me (although recently I've actually started to beat the hunk of metal on a more consistent basis).

This doesn't mean I immediately view Mega Metagross as not ban-worthy, but I do need some time to think about any limitations.

 

[Thadenvy1]

Hi all, I'd just like to chime in. I got reqs the other day. Originally, I was going to vote no ban but after playing Metagross today, I'm probably going to vote ban. I was about to win a game but at the very last minute, Metagross got a meteor mash attack boost with its HP at 60% which made it significantly more difficult to revenge kill, which is despite the fact that I have rocky helmet Corviknight, mega Scizor, and Gren (in Ash form) all on my team (although they weren't all at full health). I was still able to eke out the kill and later the win by getting chip with Garchomp as death fodder and finishing up with water shuriken, but the point I'm trying to get at is that all defensive counterplay becomes significantly less effective when the meteor mash attack raise hits. Ash-Gren becomes more susceptible to bullet punch, scizor can't shrug off EQ's, and Corviknight can't roost off Thunder punches (in addition to the paralysis risk). My team was volt-turn, which has natural advantages against mega-metagross, and the fact that even it can feel significant pressure with the random free attack raise tells me that it's unhealthy for the metagame.

Expanding from the one game to the broad meta, it should be noted that it takes significant counterplay to take it out, almost on the scale of Vish in OU*. Are there hard counters? Sure, but they're limited to a particular set. Until it goes for two or more attacks (none of which is bullet punch,) you can't be sure about a switch in (other than scizor), which gives Metagross ample time to either hone claws or snag a meteor mash attack raise. It's not the most certain sweeper, but it will take hostages with it on the way down, with little expense to the team using it.

That being said, I'm not entirely sure. There's so many counters to any individual metagross set that it's hard to say you're restricted in the teambuilder. Not to mention, its vulnerability to ash-gren is a significant downward pressure on its usage. Still, metagross' ability to get a free attack raise might just push it over the edge for me. That, in tandem with its good speed tier, access to a strong priority move, hefty bulk, wide coverage, and insane attack make it uncompetitive.

*Vish in OU without a water absorb mon, ferro, or pex.

 

[R8]

First of all, sorry if my grammar is some hot garbage, but i'll try to be understandable.

I wanted to point that Mega Metagross induce maybe a bit too much luck factor in the game, since its usual main stab moves have potential sides effects (Flinch from zen headbutt and Atk rise from ) and can miss, making the game a bit less about skill and bit more about luck. The common tpunch also has a tiny probability to paralyse the opponent.

While this characteristic doesn't make mmetagross banworthy by itself (and i also agree that people are exagerrating a bit too much about this aspect, since it doesn't rely on haxx to win) , it adds up to the already problematic nature of mmetagross, making it a bit more uncompetitive. (Not to mention that the attack rise is sometimes very hard to handle for the bulkier builds, depending on the coverage mmeta runs and the way you deal with it)

Imo, what make MMetagross banworthy isn't as obvious as other broken banned elements OU knew in the past, because the problem about mmetagross doesn't revolve around one single characteristic pushed to stupid levels (like Pheromosa's offensive capabilities and lack of counters), but around many little traits, like great speed tier, solid defensive typing, HUGE bulk (This thing is bulkier than Skarmory), the aformentionned haxx potential, being a bit too centralizing, and ability to lure some of his counters (Cf hp fire against mega scizor, or the rare but existing tapu koko's electric terrain support to break through Corviknight, Slowbro and Alomola with Tpunch, or hone claws to be unwallable in general, etc...).
Each of theses threats doesn't make MMetagross broken, but together they are a problem.

While this mon has indeed flaws, i still think these traits are too much for OU. That's why i'm probably going to vote ban.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

Somewhat related, so I know reqs ends by tonight, but when do we actually get to vote?

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Somewhat related, so I know reqs ends by tonight, but when do we actually get to vote?

Voting gets up a few hours after the thread closes

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

Voting gets up a few hours after the thread closes

Got it. Thanks.

 

[Funbot28]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-mega-metagross-suspect-voting.3664720/
Voting thread is up!

 

[theotherguytm]

Ok, so if I was to summarise what is wrong with Mega Gross:
It has 700 BST.
Of course, there have been other 700 BST Megas in OU for some time now, and even KB who had 700 BST. But I'd argue the difference between them and Mega Gross, is each of them has some crippling downside or other that weakens them from above Uber level to a manageable level in OU play. Be it mismatched stats, useless Ability, poor typing, vulnerability to trapping or competition from its base form, all of these 700 BST mons have downsides. Mega Gross simply does not. It isn't KB's "700 BST but it may as well be 530". It isn't Mega Chomp or Mega TTar where the extra 100 BST barely improves it, if at all. It isn't the Mega Latis with their horrible typing and getting outdamaged by their base forms. It has 700 BST in every sense, and it uses every point of that. It has a pretty strong typing. It has a very powerful Ability. And it faces no competition at all from its RU base form.
Mega Gross is strangling both the Mega slot and defensive cores. It needs to be banned to open up more options in the teambuilder. It's comparable to having the ability to pick Dialga as your Mega slot.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 192-226 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 191-226 (45 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Both Steel type wallbreakers that can fit Rocks.
Both hit most of the metagame in one set.
Both incredibly hard to wall outside a few select checks per set, which may or may not overlap.
Both can effectively run mixed offenses.
Both are extremely bulky and tough to wear down.
Not such a far-fetched comparison I think.

 

[Bobsican]

Everyone has talked already of how the hax and "sheer stats" are the things that notably turn Mega Metagross broken, so I'm going to talk a bit over some replays I've got with it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1119767376
As we can see here (Turn 32), the opponent predicts properly of what Metagross is going to do and skillfully brings Moltres to potentially fish in a burn, however, the RNG plays on Metagross' side and it gets an Attack boost from Meteor Mash, the opponent feels pressured and tries to heal Moltres from the incoming attack next turn with Roost, but it barely survives Thunder Punch and gets Paralyzed (This hax at this point is nearly useless as M-Meta outspeeds anyways), Moltres just dies next turn and then M-Meta proceeds to sweep the opposing team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1120051378
In this other match, we can see how I expected the standard hazard Mew set, and so I switched M-Meta in to dispatch it after mispredicting and letting Mew use his Weakness Policy to boost his offenses (From the weak Knock Off from Tapu Fini) before it ran out of control. As we can see later on (Turn 18 onwards), this is the meme "Demon" Mew set that involves doing defensive setup to then sweep with Stored Power and Body Press, however, Mew quickly gets overwhelmed across 9 turns as M-Meta managed to get three Attack boosts by using Meteor Mash and somehow never missing, then it just proceeds to sweep the opposing team, and speed control is nearly useless thanks to Bullet Punch, while the main contender M-Lopunny couldn't get past it even after managing to survive a Bullet Punch and hitting back with High Jump Kick

Overall, as many have said before, Mega Metagross indeed is able to sweep teams by itself when hax kicks in, many have also brought up "Rocky Helmet X" to check M-Meta, but forget that Knock Off support is pretty common and can easily be carried by teammates to let Mega Metagross efficiently overwhelm them then potentially sweep. So I have to say that it should be banned and hopefully not be suspect tested once more anytime soon.