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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
Pokemon definetly have the capability to kill other pokemon and people. They just do not explicitly state it in the games because that would make them less kid friendly and alter the message pokemon is trying to send(on friendship).
^As I'm trying to explain here, that capability has not been directly demonstrated, alluded to, or been a cause of concern in any significant part of Pokémon media. You've got a select, few, scattered exceptions, and on the other hand a vast number of direct, overwhelming, in-your-face aversions.
But how many of those aversions are for comedic sake? Also, many Pokémon are trained, which would include how to hold back.
Lt. Surge does talk about how pokemon saved him during the war. It does not explicitly say they saved his life from other pokemon trying to kill him, but I see no other way to interpret it, seeing as there are seemingly no guns or weapons in the games and thus it must have been Pokemon trying to do him in. And also, multiple pokemon wars were mentioned, and a wars have casualties. The casualties must have come from pokemon killing each other because, once again, there is seemingly no human weaponry( excluding the ultimate weapon, which was powered by pokemon anyway).
It could work differently, for all we know Xerneas' life power could only work on Pokemon, and has a different effect on humans.
And who is to say that Pokémon are not just used as attack dogs, taken to the next level?
Got the wifi at the condo in Destin working for the computer just fine. My 3DS still keeps failing the connection tests, though, much to my consternation.
I just think that Team Rocket doesn't appear to have guns to lower the violence content. It makes sense to at least have a sidearm you don't have to feed, water, clean up after, or otherwise take care of, especially in a war. Depending in the region you live in, you minus well build tanks and aircraft rather than trying to use Pokémon for those roles.
Got the wifi at the condo in Destin working for the computer just fine. My 3DS still keeps failing the connection tests, though, much to my consternation.
I just think that Team Rocket doesn't appear to have guns to lower the violence content. It makes sense to at least have a sidearm you don't have to feed, water, clean up after, or otherwise take care of, especially in a war. Depending in the region you live in, you minus well build tanks and aircraft rather than trying to use Pokémon for those roles.
Gravity, m'dear. He was a pilot, remember? If something was to take out its engines, Surge would have had to come up with a quick fix not to get killed by a mighty big fall. Said quick fix appears to have powering the engine with his Pokémons' electricity, though this raises a few interesting engineering questions.
Also, we have quite a few in-game quotes alluding to weaponry:
(Note that the Pokémon's response to this swordsmanship was to go into hiding, rather than attack back).Veilstone's Myth said:
Farfetch'd's Pokedex entries also mention swords, as do Samurott's and probably a few others. But if you want modern weapons, sure, those are referred to all the time too...
Blastoise's Pokedex entry said:
Implying cannons are a thing in the Pokémon universe.Rhydon's Pokédex entry said:
Implying missiles are a thing in the Pokémon universe.Rhyperior's Pokédex entry said:
Bombs do exist in the Pokémon universe. This was also demonstrated by Team Galactic in one occasion. Golem's dex entries also mention dynamite.Cloyster's Pokédex entry said:
Emphasis on "fighter plane".Garchomp's Pokédex entry said:
This should have been tested at some point. Even if the dex entries are written by ten-year-olds, it still means they know what tanks are.Chesnaught's Pokédex entry said:
And they do have a rocket ship as shown in Mossdeep, what would stop them from having tanks, jets, and swords/guns/whateverweaponyouwant.
I don't remember Lt. Surge being a pilot, but if you can prove that, than ok. Also, if we take into account pokedex entries (which is acceptable) then we have to believe that there are real animals in the Pokemon world too, because otherwise how would people know what an Indian elephant is?
But anyway, I don't think anyone here is going to budge in this argument so I just say we move on to another mystery and bury the hatchet.
The Arbok survived that because of a regenerative power that, if not unique to it, was extremely rare considering Agitha, an expert on Ghosts and Poison types with a unique Arbok of her own was evidently surprised that it could do that. We also don't find out that's the same Arbok until the next ark, so the implication for quite a while was that was a fatal injury. And there's evidence within the manga that attacking trainers is fair game. The second is even a league match.
That said, I feel like the games themselves kind of depend on the localization for how strong "never say die" is in effect. If I'm correct, Ghetsis's attempt to freeze the player in BW2 was an attempt to outright impale them with Kyurem's Glaciate. And Kyurem was still rumored to EAT people in Unova. Even if it was a myth, for people to believe it means Pokemon killing humans is a believable concept, because most people don't survive being ingested by a giant Ice Dragon.
Yveltal's Oblivion Wing is outright called "Death Wing" in the Japanese version, it is the counterpart to what is called the "Life Pokemon" in EVERY version of the game. It's not a huge leap in logic to assume it represents Death, when you consider that death isn't even an inherently evil force in nature. Overabundance of life is just as bad for the world as mass death.
Also, Honedge has this little tidbit.
If anyone dares to grab its hilt, it wraps a blue cloth around that person's arm and drains that person's life energy completely. (Y)
I don't care how you try to spin that. Completely draining life energy is killing someone. And that's the Ghost way, rather than the sword way.
I'm also just very skeptical about the idea of a human being able to survive Take Down, a full body tackle, from a 209.9 lb Beldum if it tried that. That'd probably cave in a human's rib cage.
Maybe they don't actually do so often, but Pokemon are plenty capable of killing humans.
FRLG, the Fame Checker.
The same kind of physics that allow people to survive being struck by heavy electricity, engulfed in flames, encased in ice, etc.
My own little headcanon is that Pokémon attacks may cause injury, but also offer quick regeneration (see: any time Meowth rakes somebody across the face with its five-centimetre claws in the Anime, and they're perfectly fine again a shot later). Technically, it would be the "life energy" required to regenerate that hurts you (that is, exhausts you or wears you out), since the injuries aren't sustained for long enough to be fatal. Only when the body is completely disintegrated, regeneration fails and you end up with a statue instead. At that point, it'd require a minor miracle to set you alright again, but it wouldn't technically be death unless the statue is somehow destroyed.
This life energy could be something all Pokemon have then, just some have more than others which allows them to easily transfer it. This could be why Xerneas is Life (It could be helping all those Pokemon you KOed for EV training, etc), Yveltal Destruction/Death (Trying to control to much of it.), and Zygarde is Balance, keeping the two in check. In large gatherings though, even normal Pokemon could use it to bring someone back, like with Ash turning to stone. It must come off all of them though, which is why Meowth scratches/Pikachu shocks/Charizard flames/anything else heals so fast. I mean, Ash would probably be dead from so many times of being shocked, burned, and bitten.
Again, the anime does things for comedic effect. It is a show with a lot of slapstick and slapstick rarely ends with serious injuries/death unless your target audience has a dark sense of humor. The intended target audience for the anime and for Happy Tree Friends don't overlap much, do they?
To use a specific example, think about any Tom and Jerry cartoon. We've seen Tom be sliced into several tiny cubes, yet is perfectly fine in the next scene. That is how it is in the anime. Ash being shocked with thousands of volts or Team Rocket blasting off again is just for laughs.
Yeah, but the show is close enough to the games to assume some things could happen in the games as well.
Exactly, too much and you die. There's only so much excess energy that can be drained from you before it started effecting your life functions. Sure, a Litwick probably would take a few days to drain you of all you life (as we see them do to Team Rocket in one episode of the anime, before just trying to then drag them to the afterlife by force), though Yveltal probably drains it out of you all at once. And that's honestly going on the assumption that "life energy" is just another word for plain ol' "energy". All I'm saying there's a reason they put "life" in front of it, there's plenty of Pokemon you drain you of energy and they just say "energy". However for certain Pokemon like Yveltal and Litwick (and I'm sure a few others), they added the "life" in front of it for a reason, specifically to specify its not normal energy; its energy you need to live. Speaking of Litwick, notice how the people on Celestial Tower aren't moving that much... okay, okay, joking aside maybe since they're at a graveyard the Litwick are well fed on spirits of the dead they don't need to bother with the living.
And yes, we've seen Pokemon in different medias do things that would kill a normal person, though was any of them done with the intent to kill (and if they were did the attacks hit or were they stopped/blocked)? Also being a cartoon they do sometimes rely on physical humor such as Team Rocket blasting off, so it is sometimes skewed what is suppose to deadly and what isn't. Also Pokemon are able to control the power of their attacks, and in non-life threatening situations (like competitive battling, playing around (like when Charizard uses fire on Ash), or self defense (Pikachu doesn't want to kill Team Rocket, just send them away)) they're not going to use lethal force. The ((semi) believable) Pokedex entries are probably testing the Pokemon's power at its fullest. Though if you want an example of a Pokemon not playing around when battling, I point you to the first movies' original vs clone battle. You know how in the dub Mewtwo says he's restraining everyone's "special power" so they need to fight physically? That wasn't in the original, in the original the Pokemon were physically by choice. Why? Because they were fighting to the death, they're not playing around. Special attacks are nice, but when it comes to killing physical blunt force gets the job done faster when you're fighting a creature who's able to take special attacks.
Now I'll give you that in X the Ultimate Weapon still had its killing power (and yes it's killing. If I "destroy" you there's really no room for there to be life) even though it was using Xerneas' power. It does seem that normally a Pokemon won't use its power for malicious reason unless forced by a human (Yveltal is presented as a sort of "necessary" evil rather than a malicious evil. Life and
Archie said:
Maxie said:
Groudon's and Kyogre's power are going to KILL everyone, said so by the game itself without using any word to dance around the topic. And I distinctly remember when I read that I was shocked. After XY danced around the topic of AZ's Floette's death (another important thing to note, I doubt Floette was killed by another human, especially since we only saw Pokemon fighting) I was not expecting the characters to say "death" in a way indicating people are going to die.
Look, aside from the above moment of course the game is going to stay away from the lethality of Pokemon. True some Pokedex entries may allude to it (mainly Ghost, Poison, and Dark-types), though for the most part the game sort of assures the player that their character is safe aside from when they're dealing with the villainous team (and even then meta logic kicks in as they're not going to hurt the main character since otherwise there would be no game, though with that said it would be interesting if a game suddenly gives you control of another character after the player character gets into a dangerous situation). Still, outside of the game's zone of safety it would be niave to think the Pokemon World doesn't have its own tragedies with some of these tragedies involving Pokemon. The Pokemon World is presented as our world + Pokemon, and with that comes horrible things. The game is meant to be a form of escapism so of course it'll never dwell on it, but outside it for fun philosophical discussion I think we can allow it on the table as long as we know in the games themselves it'll never come to anything.
Again, we need to be careful comparing various media with each other in this case. Yeah, in the anime, characters survive things that is very unlikely that they would (Team Rocket's skeletons should be powder by now), but in Adventures, we have this:
And several times, trainers have ordered their Pokémon to kill and they did in fact try.
When it comes to Pokémon lethality, the anime, manga, and games are like comparing apples, oranges, and bananas.
I think the point was that, while Arbok is able to regenerate, humans can't. Charmeleon sliced right through Arbok, we can see its muscles and spine. If that happened to a human in the right (or rather wrong) spot we'd be DEAD.
Lt. Surge:
Also Lt. Surge said he used Electric-types to paralyze his enemies (and later it was revealed he used them to power his plane), so in this case we don't know if a Pokemon ever killed for was order to kill by Lt. Surge. However it does sort of indicate had the Pokemon not done that he could have been killed or at least taken as a prisoner of war.
Lt Surge said:
Hmm, possibly. I suppose there's a difference between giving someone immortality and raising someone from the dead. Though is the Kalos ghost girl the only person that Xerneas rose from the dead then? I personally think she doesn't have anything to do with Xerneas at least in the sense of her origin. Whether she's looking for AZ to resurrect herself is another story.
The anime is infamous for being wrong in comparison to the games. Plus, the creator of Pokémon, Satoshi Tajiri, has said that Pokémon Adventures more accurately captures his vision than the anime.
And honestly, we have to take the games themselves with a grain of salt since we have to separate actual limits and game mechanics at times, so we must really think about certain elements.
Looking at the reasons, I agree. I've read some Pokemon Adventures (The first in HGSS) and I do see a time when a Pokemon aimed to kill someone. Near the end, Arbok rushes up from the ground and knocks Gold into the air. It appears that if Gold had not been able to escape, Arbok would of bitten him. I can't find an image sadly, but I kept rereading that part to make sense of the chaos in those panels.
The problem is, "comedic effect" is the modus operandi of the franchise. We have yet to see exceptions to the "comedic effect"; every single time we see humans hit by Pokémon attacks they shrug it off just fine. In the games, we also have a Team Rocket grunt taking a Hyper Beam to the face, and getting up again a little while later. Team Rocket have encountered wild Pokémon as well as trained ones, the result is always the same: back for more shenanigans a day or two later.
However, I think I've been able to find a suitable compromise for the debate here:
So far, we've yet to see Pokémon attacks kill anybody. We have seen a few near-deaths during the franchise, though, and the "killer" seems to be the same every time: Excessive exhaustion. Conversely, single, powerful attacks cause no lasting harm. Let's have a look:
In the first movie, the Pokémon fought 'till they could not stand, then kept on fighting. It seemed to be a battle of endurance, rather than a battle of attacks. The winner wouldn't be the first to knock out the opponent, but the last to collapse.
Second movie: The villain is hit by Lugia's attack, his flying fortress crashes, yet he crawls out of the wreckage later.
In the fourth movie, the ordeals Celebi goes through causes it to wither and nearly die. It took no direct attacks.
In the fifth movie, Latios exhausted its powers to evaporate a tsunami. It took no attacks, but spent its powers to the absolute limit.
For contrast: In the seventh movie, we see what might be the most effective attack shown to hit a target in the franchise. Rayquaza's point-blank Hyper Beam, unleashed in hellish fury, hitting Deoxys-A square in its most vulnerable spot. Deoxys emerged just fine, but it took four years to recover.
The eighth movie shows another death: Lucario, spending is powers, is trapped in a crystal and dies. No attacks.
Movie nine: Main character attacked by Kyogre and seemingly crushed underneath a falling pillar. Seen in jail during the end credits.
Movie ten: Darkrai hit, repeatedly, by furious attacks from Dialga and Palkia. Healthy and happy again before the end credits.
Movie twelve: Arceus is near-death from a constant bombardment of attacks... until it gets its Jewel of Life back, giving it strength to recover. Suddenly, the attacks don't matter any more, and it gets back into action relatively quickly.
Admittedly, I didn't watch the rest of the movies, but it seems like the established pattern is staying strong: Whenever something dies or is close to dying, it's because they exhaust their energy. Call that energy "Life Energy", if you'd like. This mirrors the description of the Pokémon dying to power the Ultimate Weapon too: It took their energy, they died.
And so, behold the Grand Unified Life Energy Theory.
Pikachu315111 provided quotes backing the theory, as far as I can tell. "Driving to death". Not "killing". It seems to indicate that the climate Groudon or Kyogre creates will be unsustainable for many Pokémon, and that they'll die trying to get away from it, or find food, rather than by the attacks themselves.
And so it seems that Pokémon are technically capable of killing, though not directly. It takes a sustained barrage, causing constant injuries, and the opponent is never killed by the force of the blow, but rather by spending its energy to recover from them (which appears to be a process the Pokémon can't control, by the way). Exhaustion, not trauma. Trauma caused by Pokémon attacks can be brushed off, but excessive brushing will lead to fatigue and death. The recovery process is the dangerous one, as recovery costs Life Energy. It does seem, however, that Life Energy can't be completely drained in one sequence, at least it would take an extraordinary amount of power to do so. A person or Pokémon could be flung across the horizon by a powerful attack, or near-disintegrated by fire, but turn out just fine. However, half the power applied twice in succession would be more damaging.
Hence why Pokémon in the games may faint in battle, and then appear healthy as a horse immediately after, carrying your weight across the continent if need be. Still, it's unable to battle until it receives the necessary amount of rest. A refill of Life Energy so it can recover off damage once again. Hit Points appear to act as a "buffer" of sorts, determining the amount of Life Energy that can be drained before things get dangerous.
The theory can be extended to fit other aspects of the Pokéverse, if you want: Wonder why you can't catch fainted Pokémon? Because that implies continuing the battle after the foe is running out of energy, which is outright dangerous. Hence, the Poké Balls are programmed not to function against a foe that's out of HP.
How are Hit Points calculated? What determines 0 HP? The threshold at which the Pokémon's Life Energy is too low for its "natural recovery reflex" to prevent fainting after taking an attack. The more Life Energy, the more Hit Points, since the Pokémon can sustain more damage without fainting. Oh, by the way, Ghost Pokémon usually have a low HP stat.
What makes Yveltal dangerous, then? The answer would be: It's cocoonification process seems to drain Life Energy from the area indiscriminately, maybe even from exhausted Pokémon. And people, and plants, and... well, there could be a victim or two among the aftermath of the process, complete with the whole area being pretty ruined.
And what's up with the in-game graveyards? Well, as I said, exhaustion draining Life Energy seems to be the cause of Pokémon deaths. As they get older, they won't have as much Life Energy to sustain themselves any more, hence death by advanced age.
Life Energy doesn't seem to be energy in the traditional sense, though. It can be created and go lost, and it appears to be a renewable resource. It's refilled by resting, possibly also by eating.
So, what determines how much Life Energy a Pokémon can have? How does it increase its treshold for Life Energy? Well, this brings us to the central point of the franchise: Battles. Why do Pokémon battle, and push themselves and each other to the point of fainting? Well, what do you really think Experience Points are?
It's getting a little late, so I don't think I'll be able to polish the theory any more now, but it seems to satisfy all requirements, not contradict canon, and most importantly, explain why Pokémon attacks don't kill by trauma. What do you think?
I don't completely agree with everything you had to say, but I'll take it.
I'm thinking that Experience Points are probably extra Life Energy, the amount lost from the battle. The reason that Pokemon battle in the first place isn't always just for food, shelter, or the will of their trainers. It's because if they can win, they will have even more Life Energy and live longer. When a Pokemon takes a hit, as Codraroll said it uses HP, which is basically a shield before things can get to fatal levels. The HP that is taken off reverts to new Life Energy, which simply stays in it's original form (Maybe a gas, or it could be balls of light like in Minecraft, i'll add an image.) and waits for the battle to be finished. When a victor is crowned, it goes to the stronger of the two and resides there. What about the damage the victor took anyway? It probably keeps it, or some of it might go to the loser to aid them in their recovery. Any ideas?
Could it look like this?
A few inconsistencies I did want to address, whether or not they really debunk your theory. Replies will be in bold.
Also, just to address something else that happens in a later movie, Movie 13 with Zororark.
Zorua and Zoroark are repeatedly zapped by Kodai's wrist claw (not to mention the wired cage Zororark is locked in). Zorua at one point nearly does die from the zapping, and Zororark expires from a combination of 2 things: taking an attack aimed at Zorua, and then another shocking from Kodai. Celebi does revive Zoroark using the time ripple, but considering the following scene plays out very similarly to Simba's "wake up Dad" scene in the Lion King, safe bet that Zoroark was dead from those wounds, and even Bulbapedia does describe it as "mortally wounded". Just an instance of a Pokemon dying by beating rather than exhaustion as most do in the movies.
Also, the games don't tend to center the majority of their comedy around outright slapstick the way the anime does. In the show, characters get shocked by Pikachu, set on fire by Charizard, James constantly got munched by his Grass Types, and none of them came out with so much as a second's debilitation. Most ingame Pokedex entries note that Victreebel's prey is completely dissolved within a day if swallowed; while obviously not that long, that'd have to be some potent acid that would at least make the exposed person wince for a bit.
And yes, the Rocket Grunt survive Hyper Beam from Lance, but there's a stark contrast in that
A) The grunt was directly attacked at all. The anime seldom touches on the idea of humans being attacked in actual battle (as in part of the battling party) bar blunt slapstick.
B) The grunt is clearly debilitated enough to not stop Lance as he enters the hide out.
The Grunt clearly isn't just shrugging off getting attacked by a Dragonite the way most anime attack recipients would.
And to bring the manga into it again, Red is left with debilitating injuries after being frozen alive by Lorelei's Jynx's/Ice Dolls, needing to travel to Mt. Silver's hot springs for therapy on it even a few weeks/months after the fact.
I also don't think the unified energy theory would work in the manga either. In the battle with Agitha, Koga loses blood to Golbat in what is explicitly a Leech Life attack, a move. This entails that the moves can debilitate by means besides just trauma, as Koga was visibly winded from Blood Loss afterwards. Haunter's Lick paralyzed Blue's face such that he couldn't open his eyes, and another Arbok attempted to hit Koga with Poison Sting in a strike Blue explicitly says would have finished Koga even with all his knowledge of Poisons.
Yellow gets struck by a Bubble that injures her arm to the point of needing a cast, and Giovanni basically has Beedrill holding a Stinger to Lance's neck akin to a knife to slit his throat if he tried anything. Giovanni also in another scene has his Cloyster freeze and then dismember a pair of Magmar, showing the piece of the Ice fall with their bodies still inside them. He attempts to have Nidoqueen impale Red with Poison Sting, and notes that Red shouldn't have managed to attack because no human could hold a Pokeball laced with the electricity Pikachu charged and unleashed.
The manga plays a bit closer to the game mechanics than the anime does (I still recall no way to attack the Sprinklers in Brock's Gym or give my Swellow Thunder Armor), so I think it safe to assume the games probably do gel with the idea that Pokemon can injure and kill humans.
Also, like I've said previously, this is a Dragonite that is trained by the Champion of the Indigo League, one of the strongest trainers of the Kanto-Johto area. The level of training that Dragonite must have gone through means it can easily pull its punches.
You want to see an exception to the comedic effect? How about the part of Pryce's backstory where he intercepted a Magmar's Flamethrower on his Piloswine that left them both badly burned in the hospital when they were young? Or you want one that involves killing what about Mewtwo killing all the scientists that created it including Dr. Fuji? As for Team Rocket, there a few examples like them taking attacks after attacks from a poacher or a Shiny Metagross about ready to tear James apart.
As for your compromise, fine. I strongly disagree (for example fire is still fire), but it's obvious no matter what evidence each side provides we're not going to convince one another so there's no real point to go on. What I will say is that for the most part a Pokemon never aims to kill and we'll probably never see a Pokemon directly kill someone (since it is a franchise aimed at kids and that'll bump it up to at least a PG rating). HOWEVER a Pokemon still has the power to kill, if not from direct attacks but from emanating power which for the most part they can't control.
Now let's just move on from the topic.
I'm thinking that Experience Points are probably extra Life Energy, the amount lost from the battle. The reason that Pokemon battle in the first place isn't always just for food, shelter, or the will of their trainers. It's because if they can win, they will have even more Life Energy and live longer. When a Pokemon takes a hit, as Codraroll said it uses HP, which is basically a shield before things can get to fatal levels. The HP that is taken off reverts to new Life Energy, which simply stays in it's original form (Maybe a gas, or it could be balls of light like in Minecraft, i'll add an image.) and waits for the battle to be finished. When a victor is crowned, it goes to the stronger of the two and resides there. What about the damage the victor took anyway? It probably keeps it, or some of it might go to the loser to aid them in their recovery. Any ideas?
Could it look like this?
Hmm, that's an interesting discussion. What exactly is experience? Is your Pokemon absorbing the lost energy from your opponent? Is it just your Pokemon's muscles healing after the battle?
I didn't watch the episode, but from what I can gather, neither Pryce nor Piloswine had any lasting injuries. If Pokémon attacks were truly as dangerous as stated, a Fire Blast would have burnt Pryce to cinders. Instead, Piloswine decided to cure it with herbs. That's not a proper injury, it's a mild annoyance.
Mewtwo killing the scientists is never confirmed. The lab exploded, indeed. So did a certain hot air balloon or a bunch of giant mechas, hundreds of times, and its pilots are still running around to date without slowing down.
When releasing Arbok and Weezing, Team Rocket fought Pokémon and still weren't even knocked out. They were fine again by the end of the episode. It takes some extrapolating to say they were in mortal danger.
As for the Metagross, it's not certain what would have happened, as it never finished attacking. If it had hurt James badly and permanently, I'd have taken your point, but we've seen those guys facing explosions at point-blank range, and/or being thrown across the horizon nearly a four-digit number of times now. I'm not convinced by an allegedly harmful attack almost happening.
I realize the phrase "shrug it off just fine" was a poor choice of words. What I meant was, the people are up and running again by the start of the next episode, and rarely if ever get any lasting marks, not even as much as a scar. Have we even seen broken bones from a Pokémon attack yet? Dismemberment? Not that I can recall. Have we seen characters - people and Pokémon - been attacked by other Pokémon by attacks that would - if not for cartoon physics - turn them into a fine mist of charred salsa? Plenty of times, I dare even say regularly. Have they suffered lasting, permanent effects from it? Not yet. That doesn't seem like a "ruleset" that allows for death by trauma to me.
No death from direct trauma, we seem to agree on that, at least.