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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
Also Charmander players in Gen 1 do get their type effectiveness lesson and that STAB (elemental) moves are good, but technically get it earlier than Bulbasaur and Squirtle players. For Charmander players, that comes not with Brock, but with Viridian Forest, the first dungeon of the game. That dungeon is filled with Caterpie and Weedle, and their evolved forms Kakuna and Metapod, as near constant wild encounters and in the few Trainer battles. Charmander's Ember will sear those bugs and OHKO while Normal moves take a few hits to KO, preventing Caterpie and Weedle from using String Shot or Weedle poisoning with Poison Sting. At that point one shotting Kakuna and Metapod also stands out because they are resilient to Pidgey and Rattata's weak Normal attacks, and spam Harden which will ensure it takes longer to KO them. So Charmander's Ember taking them down in one shot highlights the dichotomy.
It's part of why Bug also makes a strong introductory type, and it would go on to be used for the second Gym Leader in Johto (Bugsy), while Viola and Katy are the first Gym Leaders in XY and SV.
It's part of why Bug also makes a strong introductory type, and it would go on to be used for the second Gym Leader in Johto (Bugsy), while Viola and Katy are the first Gym Leaders in XY and SV.
Honestly, all of the first gyms are weird. In order:
And the thing is, there's so many types that would be better IMO.
Now, a lot of those are lategame gym types, which I don't think is a bad thing. One, it's good for making the designers shake things up a bit. Two, think how funny it would be if the player is starting somewhere where new trainers rarely start and accidentally walks into the lategame dragon gym first.
Rock: Unbalanced type interactions with all 3 starters in different ways, discourages catching coverage mons.
Rock: (yellow version) You MUST catch something to deal with this.
Flying/Normal: Chikorita gets bodied. Mud Slap in Gen II means so does Cyndaquil. Totodile fans stay winning.
Rock: Unbalanced type interactions with all 3 starters in different ways
Rock: Unbalanced type interactions with all 3 starters in different ways (bored yet?)
FWG: (BW) Hope you trained the mandatory gift mon that we forced on you, there are literally no other counters available. (I would actually respect this if there was a variety of mons available early. You could even give one gym leader all 3 types, just to drive home that the player needs more than just to level one specific mon).
Normal: (B2W2) A perfectly reasonable choice for a 1st gym, FINALLY.
Bug: Weak to Fire and SE vs Grass, except look out, we've inverted that for this gym! Perfect for new players to the game, right?
Normal: (Ilma's trial in SM) Again, perfectly reasonable.
Grass: I actually like this, since GWF are the first 3 gyms. Yes, it's technically an advantage for the fire-starter, but it balances out quickly and makes type interactions the forefront in case you have induced amnesia after your fight with Hop.
Bug: Unbalanced choice, and the fake-out with grass is weird. Worth noting that this is an open world game, and the other early fights available are Grass and Rock, which are similarly odd choices.
Rock: (yellow version) You MUST catch something to deal with this.
Flying/Normal: Chikorita gets bodied. Mud Slap in Gen II means so does Cyndaquil. Totodile fans stay winning.
Rock: Unbalanced type interactions with all 3 starters in different ways
Rock: Unbalanced type interactions with all 3 starters in different ways (bored yet?)
FWG: (BW) Hope you trained the mandatory gift mon that we forced on you, there are literally no other counters available. (I would actually respect this if there was a variety of mons available early. You could even give one gym leader all 3 types, just to drive home that the player needs more than just to level one specific mon).
Normal: (B2W2) A perfectly reasonable choice for a 1st gym, FINALLY.
Bug: Weak to Fire and SE vs Grass, except look out, we've inverted that for this gym! Perfect for new players to the game, right?
Normal: (Ilma's trial in SM) Again, perfectly reasonable.
Grass: I actually like this, since GWF are the first 3 gyms. Yes, it's technically an advantage for the fire-starter, but it balances out quickly and makes type interactions the forefront in case you have induced amnesia after your fight with Hop.
Bug: Unbalanced choice, and the fake-out with grass is weird. Worth noting that this is an open world game, and the other early fights available are Grass and Rock, which are similarly odd choices.
Normal, Fighting, Dark, Psychic are all neutral throughout, which is fair, if boring.
Dragon and Ghost force the player to interact with type matchups immediately without being an advantage for any one type.
I'd be a fan of any of the above. Other options:
Fairy is basically neutral throughout, only being NVE against fire, which is a nothing problem compared to what we've seen so far.
A type that's SE against part of FWG but doesn't resist(Electric, though others could work) could be an interesting matchup if you don't give the gym leader STAB. If their TM is Headbutt or similar, especially if 1x use TMs are a thing, and you've got a fair challenge for all starters and an interesting choice right off the bat.
Steel would be fun if the Grass starter gets Leech Seed early. Fire is SE, Fire and Water resist it, but Grass has passive damage/healing vs the likely high defenses.
Poison similarly would be an interesting way to introduce the player to Stall tactics early on. Neutral to 2 of the types, and forces the third into using your own stall tactics.
The remainder(Flying, Ground, Rock, Bug, Ice, Fire, Water, Grass) are probably difficult to keep balanced vs all 3 starters in most games.
Dragon and Ghost force the player to interact with type matchups immediately without being an advantage for any one type.
I'd be a fan of any of the above. Other options:
Fairy is basically neutral throughout, only being NVE against fire, which is a nothing problem compared to what we've seen so far.
A type that's SE against part of FWG but doesn't resist(Electric, though others could work) could be an interesting matchup if you don't give the gym leader STAB. If their TM is Headbutt or similar, especially if 1x use TMs are a thing, and you've got a fair challenge for all starters and an interesting choice right off the bat.
Steel would be fun if the Grass starter gets Leech Seed early. Fire is SE, Fire and Water resist it, but Grass has passive damage/healing vs the likely high defenses.
Poison similarly would be an interesting way to introduce the player to Stall tactics early on. Neutral to 2 of the types, and forces the third into using your own stall tactics.
The remainder(Flying, Ground, Rock, Bug, Ice, Fire, Water, Grass) are probably difficult to keep balanced vs all 3 starters in most games.
You walk through the massive double doors and are greeted by a cavernous space. A maze stretches before you, clearly impassable. Suddenly there's a gong, and walls begin to sink into the ground, revealing a torch-lit path straight to the center of the maze. A dozen trainers in full dragon regalia step out of the sides of the path, staves in hand, and cross them over your head as you advance to the altar in the center. Atop it stands a 7' woman in riding gear, in front of a tapestry of herself riding a Salamence. She reaches below the altar and draws out a sash with 2 ultra-balls on it and 4 open slots. She gives an inspiring speech about any accomplishment as a trainer being worthy of respect, just getting this far getting started is impressive, and there is no shame in losing, merely let it inspire you to train harder.
And then she sends out a level 12 Dratini and a level 14 Bagon.
And then she sends out a level 12 Dratini and a level 14 Bagon.
In this regard, I actually think Water is the mis-accounted for type in teaching with the Starters, because it lacks a real "flip" of the dynamic to show you type match-up importance. Fire has it easy on the Bugs and struggles on the Rock boss, while Grass has the reverse, so you have a clear contrast of "wow, I thought this Pokemon was just good/bad, but this is so much harder/easier because of the effectiveness"
Squirtle doesn't have that. It simply plays as well as it does into the Wild Pokemon and then Brock becomes even easier, so it doesn't really hammer in the importance of typing early on.
Randomly thinking earlier that Cynthia having a Porygon-Z in some of her recent game appearances feels so incredibly out-of-place to me. I'm convinced they wanted to fill a slot on her team and were determined to give her something no other NPC had already used. Just does not fit her at all.
Where? The only PZ I can find for her is the final rematch in BDSP, which yes is odd, but...
So her team is basically set as: Spiritomb, Lucario, Milotic, Garchomp (all of which are reasonable "boss" mons for various reasons). Then the remaining 2 slots have always* been some mix of Roserade, Gastrodon, Togekiss, Glaceon. Which are all perfectly serviceable, but not as impressive. First off, why any of those, but also, once established, why change them? Given that, swapping one of the two floating slots for PZ isn't a huge departure, and it's certainly more intimidating than Glaceon or Roserade as her special attacker.
*BW gave her an Eelektross and a Braviary for some reason, but it seems like the devs wisely decided to move on.
She also has a Porygon-Z as one of her Pokémon as an opponent in Pokémon Masters (presumably taken from her rematch in BDSP). I checked Bulbapedia and I think replacing Roserade with it makes sense from a boss standpoint; they both serve as special attackers with reasonable speed and attempt to hit a lot of weaknesses. In that regard, Porygon-Z is an improvement over Roserade with slightly better defenses and Special Attack, fewer weaknesses, and better coverage moves.
I assume Porygon-Z feeling out of place on Cynthia's team is more a function of what kind of Pokémon it is, rather than what it provides to her team. She's a researcher/archaeologist, and a lot of her Pokémon, outside of their strength, represent some sort of natural power or overworld rarity. Spiritomb, Lucario, Milotic, Togekiss, and Garchomp are all rare, with Spiritomb and possibly Chomp linking into her archaeology habits, and Lucario and Togekiss into her passion and personality.
Jumping ahead to her Undella Town encounter, I think Eelektross and Braviary fit her MO decently well. Eelektross follows in Spiritomb's footsteps by having no weaknesses (Excadrill/Haxorus users don't interact), as well as following Garchomp's precedent by needing to find its (weak) base form in a cave and then only getting the reward for raising it after struggling for a while. Braviary is a little harder to link, but to me I see it as representing natural power. It's also a little meta, with Unova being an analog for the US, where our state bird is the bald eagle. I don't think there's any similar representation in Unova with Braviary, but maybe she chose Braviary because it was important to the ancient Unovans
Meanwhile, Porygon-Z is anything but natural (it's even a digression from Porygon's intended programming), and it doesn't feel like it fits her interests outside of battling. I could definitely believe that ILCA gave her Porygon-Z to make sure it was represented by one major boss trainer in the game without really thinking about it on her team.
I assume Porygon-Z feeling out of place on Cynthia's team is more a function of what kind of Pokémon it is, rather than what it provides to her team. She's a researcher/archaeologist, and a lot of her Pokémon, outside of their strength, represent some sort of natural power or overworld rarity. Spiritomb, Lucario, Milotic, Togekiss, and Garchomp are all rare, with Spiritomb and possibly Chomp linking into her archaeology habits, and Lucario and Togekiss into her passion and personality.
Jumping ahead to her Undella Town encounter, I think Eelektross and Braviary fit her MO decently well. Eelektross follows in Spiritomb's footsteps by having no weaknesses (Excadrill/Haxorus users don't interact), as well as following Garchomp's precedent by needing to find its (weak) base form in a cave and then only getting the reward for raising it after struggling for a while. Braviary is a little harder to link, but to me I see it as representing natural power. It's also a little meta, with Unova being an analog for the US, where our state bird is the bald eagle. I don't think there's any similar representation in Unova with Braviary, but maybe she chose Braviary because it was important to the ancient Unovans
Meanwhile, Porygon-Z is anything but natural (it's even a digression from Porygon's intended programming), and it doesn't feel like it fits her interests outside of battling. I could definitely believe that ILCA gave her Porygon-Z to make sure it was represented by one major boss trainer in the game without really thinking about it on her team.
I'd say that Cynthia's other interests definitely have a use for Porygon-Z as originally intended. Given what kind of thing keeps happening in ruins, especially with the main legendaries of Sinnoh, interdimensional travel would be a large asset in figuring out what's going on. Modern research in nearly every field includes a lot of computer modelling as well. It's something of an open question lorewise as to whether that sort of thing is still working behind Porygon-Z's glitchy facade or if it's entirely scrambled, though I've generally leaned towards the former interpretation.
Though I will admit that my first reaction was that it felt odd for Cynthia to have Porygon-Z. This was mostly personal preference, I'm not a huge fan of Garchomp and really don't like Lucario so a Porygon seemed too good for her (especially since it never overlaps with Roserade or Gastrodon).
Though I will admit that my first reaction was that it felt odd for Cynthia to have Porygon-Z. This was mostly personal preference, I'm not a huge fan of Garchomp and really don't like Lucario so a Porygon seemed too good for her (especially since it never overlaps with Roserade or Gastrodon).
I never actually finished BDSP so until now didn’t bother checking what mon Pory-Z replaced on Cynthia’s team. I did know she used one but I’m pleasantly surprised to see that they replaced the mon I also would’ve chosen to replace.
I don’t think there’s any more consideration required for Cynthia’s team besides “rarity”. For that reason Roserade always felt extremely out of place to me, Budew is everywhere at the start of the game and Roselia is fairly common in the mid game. I always thought that they just gave it to her because first female champion and they have this cool new female-looking Pokémon, with no greater underlying thought put into it, and I always found it tacky. It doesn’t help that Roserade was the ace of the SECOND gym leader, and sure that’s a pretty tough fight but seeing a mon used by the second boss of the game come back as this champion-level party member was always weird.
Gastrodon is similar, but Diamond/Pearl were playing with scraps and the “well this colour is only half of them!” was prob adequate for their scarcity bar at the time. With more options they quickly replaced it.
Across all Sinnoh games Cynthia’s party members, from the player’s perspective, are 4 gift mons (Lucario, Togekiss, Porygon-Z, Glaceon), Spiritomb which is a one-off you have to muck around in the underground to get, Milotic which involves catching a Feebas and we all know how that works, Garchomp who’s only in the hidden entrance of an optional cave, and then 2 generic common mons in Roserade and Gastrodon. Where every other category falls under the umbrella of rare or scarce, Roserade and Gastrodon have always been the members who feel out of place.
Porygon-Z is a great addition since it’s always only ever been a giftmon or arcade reward. I’d go so far as to say it probably would have replaced Roserade in Platinum too but at the time it type overlapped with Togekiss, and now that they had the expanded dex they probably would’ve thought it a bit underwhelming for the champion to double up on Normal-Type of all things.
I don’t think there’s any more consideration required for Cynthia’s team besides “rarity”. For that reason Roserade always felt extremely out of place to me, Budew is everywhere at the start of the game and Roselia is fairly common in the mid game. I always thought that they just gave it to her because first female champion and they have this cool new female-looking Pokémon, with no greater underlying thought put into it, and I always found it tacky. It doesn’t help that Roserade was the ace of the SECOND gym leader, and sure that’s a pretty tough fight but seeing a mon used by the second boss of the game come back as this champion-level party member was always weird.
Gastrodon is similar, but Diamond/Pearl were playing with scraps and the “well this colour is only half of them!” was prob adequate for their scarcity bar at the time. With more options they quickly replaced it.
Across all Sinnoh games Cynthia’s party members, from the player’s perspective, are 4 gift mons (Lucario, Togekiss, Porygon-Z, Glaceon), Spiritomb which is a one-off you have to muck around in the underground to get, Milotic which involves catching a Feebas and we all know how that works, Garchomp who’s only in the hidden entrance of an optional cave, and then 2 generic common mons in Roserade and Gastrodon. Where every other category falls under the umbrella of rare or scarce, Roserade and Gastrodon have always been the members who feel out of place.
Porygon-Z is a great addition since it’s always only ever been a giftmon or arcade reward. I’d go so far as to say it probably would have replaced Roserade in Platinum too but at the time it type overlapped with Togekiss, and now that they had the expanded dex they probably would’ve thought it a bit underwhelming for the champion to double up on Normal-Type of all things.
So, to answer "why any of those":
-Spiritomb is kind of a given for her as an archeologist: the Odd Keystone is the sort of thing she'd have found at a dig or in an old ruin somewhere
We know that she also undertook a Pokemon journey like the player did, so her having a variety of Pokemon from all over the place makes sense, but her Pokemon tend to be elite-tier rare ones with very few weaknesses. Milotic is a fantastically rare species only used by bosses and Ace Trainers, Lucario is an egg-exclusive species, Togekiss is another rare egg-exclusive species (and is justified by her giving the player a Togepi egg in Platinum). And then there's Garchomp, of course.
Gastrodon fits her the least, which is why I suspect it was replaced in Platinum, but it's broadly in keeping with the others as a Pokemon with only one major weakness. Eelektross continues that theme so I can see why it was given to her in BW - Braviary less so, but it's one of the strongest bird Pokemon so may have purely been for aesthetic variety (and also to showcase a mon no other major NPC in BW uses - Alder should have had it from the start imo, fits him so well). Her getting a Glaceon again adds some good variety and better Sinnoh rep - it's again a quite rare species.
To expand on the Roserade point: while Roselia is immensely common in Sinnoh and elsewhere, Roserade is seen vastly less, implying that evolving it takes more time, effort, or skill than your average trainer possesses. It's similar to the way in which, for instance, numerous trainers in Blackthorn Gym have a Seadra but only Clair appears to have managed to evolve hers into a Kingdra - the implication, to me at least, is that Roserade is not a particularly common or easy Pokemon to obtain. Yes to we the player it's as simple as applying an evolution stone but that's a gameplay mechanics decision; and Shiny Stones are only buyable in a couple of games so they're very plausibly extremely uncommon in-universe.
Yeah, this is what I was getting at. Porygon-Z isn't the worst imaginable choice for her from a gameplay point of view, it just stands out quite weirdly against her other picks because it feels incongruous from a character standpoint. There's a slight undertone of high fantasy to Cynthia's team picks: an ancient ghost, a dragon, a noble warrior, a legendary sea serpent, an angelic bird, a tricky grass fairy*. Whereas Porygon-Z is futuristic, inorganic, not particularly noble or dignified.
*not a literal fairy of course, but Roserade certainly has some magical vibes going on
It's funny you mention it like this, because Roserade always struck me personally as a "stylish-flamboyant Masculine" type of design, akin to Tuxedo Mask or Zorro.
I'd also argue the same criticism applies to Lucario in that it's Maylene's Ace on top of being a prominent Pokemon for Riley. I do kind of prefer Roserade in that Grass is a type you don't see well-represented by Endgame a lot of the time, compared to Fighting or Dragon which are easy to slap on a strong specialist or a "Tough" team by nature.
Additional to this is that Porygon-Z is very much a modified mess of a Pokemon, so besides the fantasy vs modern tech vibes, it also feels mismatched characteristically from her team. The "Fantasy" equivalent would be the team including some homunculus/chimera like the Galar Fossils that is deliberately messed-up in its biology.
Tbf, being used by literally EVERYONE is very much Lucario's thing
Agree with this. Roserade is one of the few Grass-types which is geared for being a proper sweeper and there's not really an alternative that would fit better (sorry Carnivine, but it's true). People constantly criticise Geeta for having a Gogoat and Diantha's Gourgeist always felt a bit like the weak link of her team to me. Grass so often gets left out from lategame NPC teams and when it does make it in it's usually a starter or a Leafeon.
Cynthia's gimmick is having a bunch of weird &/or cool Pokemon
weird: Gastrodon, Porygon-Z, kinda Togekiss imo, Spiritomb, Eelektross
cool: Milotic, Lucario, Roserade, Glaceon, Braviary, Garchomp
So imo all the "offsets" like Gastrodon & Porygon-Z fit her because there's enough of a running current of "weirdos" that together make it a theme. I think Z just stands out more because basically no one uses the line and also it's BDSP so everyone has a hairpin trigger about it as a default.
weird: Gastrodon, Porygon-Z, kinda Togekiss imo, Spiritomb, Eelektross
cool: Milotic, Lucario, Roserade, Glaceon, Braviary, Garchomp
So imo all the "offsets" like Gastrodon & Porygon-Z fit her because there's enough of a running current of "weirdos" that together make it a theme. I think Z just stands out more because basically no one uses the line and also it's BDSP so everyone has a hairpin trigger about it as a default.
I think pokemons songs themselves are an overlooked option to look for secrets.
So, Solgaleo and Lunala share a theme with Necrozma. Big deal, why do you care. Well, recall how in Sun and Moon, Necrozma took a much different role, being the final boss of the Ultra Beast episode, and having much less lore significance. Now, what do you think its theme was in these games. Was it the Ultra Beast battle theme?
No.
It was still the Solgaleo and Lunala theme. Now, we know now why that is, but at the time, what that meant wasn't obvious at all. It could be explained away, but it was still an odd choice, and using that to suggest it has more importance wouldn't actually be that farfetch'd.
So keep your eyes out for something like this happening in the future.
So, Solgaleo and Lunala share a theme with Necrozma. Big deal, why do you care. Well, recall how in Sun and Moon, Necrozma took a much different role, being the final boss of the Ultra Beast episode, and having much less lore significance. Now, what do you think its theme was in these games. Was it the Ultra Beast battle theme?
No.
It was still the Solgaleo and Lunala theme. Now, we know now why that is, but at the time, what that meant wasn't obvious at all. It could be explained away, but it was still an odd choice, and using that to suggest it has more importance wouldn't actually be that farfetch'd.
So keep your eyes out for something like this happening in the future.