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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Coconut
- Start date
see yall wanna laugh at me n shit cuz it's p obvious yall just dont see the metagame the same way i do. but ground types aint switching in bro. u wanna go into ur drilbur? burned for the rest of the game. anything else is unviable and still hates the burn. porygon is the only good switch into this mon i'm teling u
anyways yall dont gotta agree and it's clear that yall thing im some sort of laughing stock just cuz i dont got the same linear opinion. but time will tell whats rlly broken i aint gon bother arguing no more. i said what i said
Alright, so the reason they're saying
Just run a ground type lmao
Bottom Text
Is cause you could run mons like Onix
, Mudbray 
(if you're worried about burn, run rest talk, its pretty fun) or Drilbur 
and they take Koffing's stab Sludge Bomb really well due to their stats in addition to resisting poison. If you're worried that burn is simply way too much for you to handle, try running Frillish 
, Porygon 
or Specially Defensive Natu 
.
I don't want to actually joined nor continue this current discussion, but...
Eviolite/Berry Juice Porygon's Download? Who in a world is staying their healthy Koffing in on a Porygon?
Berry Juice Onix/Shell Smash Dwebble's Sturdy? does Koffing even one-shot them? It can wisp them, but it has flat 0 difference compared to Frillish wisping them.
Vulpix's Drought? Why would anyone let a pokemon with low special bulk stay in on a Vulpix?
Grookey's Grassy Surge? Grookey will almost always get its terrain up before Koffing negates it in any given game
Ponyta-Galar's Pastel Veil? Same thing as Vulpix, why would Koffing stay in on that?
Mareanie's Regenerator? Koffing needs Tbolt, and even then, Koffing isn't going to hard switch on a Mareanie like the same way it would against Mienfoo, would you risk losing 40% HP so that you could negate Mareanie's Regen?
Bunnelby's Huge Power? That's a niche mon, and if you think its bad because NGas Koffing exist, then you're delusional, it ain't rising up to A Tier if you ban NGas Koffing, let alone B Tier.
Abra's Magic Guard? Well, sure its nice to see Abra losing its Sash to a Stealth Rock, but Sash Abra has been dropped in usage in favor of Shed Shell or Life Orb right now. I only see this set like 95% of the time exclusively on low ladder, and why would anyone care about low ladder
This reasoning alone is so bad, that i would jump out of the window by now. This reasoning may be valid if its Almost Any Ability or Balanced Hackmons, but nope, this is Little Cup, and NGas in Little Cup is way different than in those metas.I would laugh so badly if you tried to used this exact reasoning to ban Weezing-Galar in RU.
What kind of a trash reasoning is this to suspect Koffing? like what ability does Koffing negate in practice that isn't Mienfoo's Regenerator or maybe Timburr's Guts?
Eviolite/Berry Juice Porygon's Download? Who in a world is staying their healthy Koffing in on a Porygon?
Berry Juice Onix/Shell Smash Dwebble's Sturdy? does Koffing even one-shot them? It can wisp them, but it has flat 0 difference compared to Frillish wisping them.
Vulpix's Drought? Why would anyone let a pokemon with low special bulk stay in on a Vulpix?
Grookey's Grassy Surge? Grookey will almost always get its terrain up before Koffing negates it in any given game
Ponyta-Galar's Pastel Veil? Same thing as Vulpix, why would Koffing stay in on that?
Mareanie's Regenerator? Koffing needs Tbolt, and even then, Koffing isn't going to hard switch on a Mareanie like the same way it would against Mienfoo, would you risk losing 40% HP so that you could negate Mareanie's Regen?
Bunnelby's Huge Power? That's a niche mon, and if you think its bad because NGas Koffing exist, then you're delusional, it ain't rising up to A Tier if you ban NGas Koffing, let alone B Tier.
Abra's Magic Guard? Well, sure its nice to see Abra losing its Sash to a Stealth Rock, but Sash Abra has been dropped in usage in favor of Shed Shell or Life Orb right now. I only see this set like 95% of the time exclusively on low ladder, and why would anyone care about low ladder
This reasoning alone is so bad, that i would jump out of the window by now. This reasoning may be valid if its Almost Any Ability or Balanced Hackmons, but nope, this is Little Cup, and NGas in Little Cup is way different than in those metas.
This quote tells me about one thing, if you think something like Abra can't check Koffing because it has 0 bulk, or Natu can't switch in because its gets slapped by Tbolt, then why are you relying so much on defensively answering a Koffing? Why not try checking it offensively or do both instead? This is a pokemon with low speed and a poor recovery. If you're struggling to deal with Koffing in an offensive way, then that's a you problem, not Koffing's problem. Almost every LC team will have 3-4 mons faster than it, sometimes even 5. Even some shitty mons like Darumaka can threaten Koffing offensively because they're faster, and they got tremendously aided by the fact Mienfoo has a tendency to click U-turn at the exact same moment Koffing's coming in to the field.
Fwiw sacking Koffing on Porygon late in a game prevents it from getting a Download boost.
The thing about Koffing is it can actually be hard to find a switchin for sometimes because of some disliking Will-o-Wisp, some disliking Thief, and some disliking the coverage, but you can scout these and determine your switchins accordingly. Moreover, anything faster than Koffing can actually soft-check it, and it is a mon that doesn't like to take chip because it's the only viable Poison without Regenerator. As such, if you weigh it accordingly in a game, even
or faster 
(I like my Koffing 13 Speed personally) can help breaking it down if your dedicated Koffing check doesn't seem like enough.If you still can't find great switchins that suit you because Ground-types are (mostly) invalidated by Will-o-Wisp, adding to TheShoddyStrawman's comment below, you can always innovate new switchins!
try running Frillish
You could potentially run
as a Koffing switchin which can use it to set up Calm Minds (also likes Pawniard being BJ atm), stuff like bulky Rocks (I have yet to try DD 
in HO but sure seems fun) or Grounds (see Eeveeto's post, I have had talks about 
on Discord in the past), 
, CoilRest 
or stuff like that! Even though the tier is basically solved and we're less than a month away from the new games, nothing prevents you from trying more exotic options if other options to deal with Koffing don't suit you! They are not guaranteed to work because you need to test them, but the answers to Koffing are not limited to only the mons presented above! Another great Koffing check, though I'm unsure if it was already mentioned, is 
. Even running more SpDef on Pokémon like 
can be worth exploring.After all, we innovated
(and 
) for 
! Nothing prevents you from doing the same for Koffing!You can also always just U-turn with your Mienfoo and apply pressure to an opposing Koffing without having to find a switchin, which is actually a quite effective way of chipping it down and taking advantage of it. Due to Koffing having trouble with recovery, you can overload it easily with checks such as
and 
, especially with Rocks support.Besides, the checks that Koffing would want to target with Will-O-Wisp can still use their raw defense to set up rocks and check stuff like Ponyta or Tyrunt! Even if your checks get burnt, you can therefore still get an advantage out of Koffing.
aight lil bro listen up. i was willing to ignore most the responses since they were constructive critism but u tryna call my reasoning trash? no need to b so condescending dawg im just givin my 2 cents. i promise u it aint dat deep dis is lc we talking abt not human rights. we can have a reasonable discussion.
why do u think foongus aint relevant? why do u think marenie aint dat good? why is it not able to b trapped by diglett or trapinch? why does sun struggle in the current meta? why do u gotta b careful w the "best" (according to u lot) pokemon in the tier mienfoo when against koffing? cuz its ability is broken. n that's just 1 of the things dat contribute to its brokeness obviously i aint tryna say the ability is alone is why it shud b banned
and secondly i think u just making stuff up bro. i aint say abra cant check koffing idk where u got that. i said it cant switch in which it cant. lotta shit b outspeeding porygon last gen n and it was banned cuz its so strong. every pokemon got checks. dis is like saying sneasel aint broken cuz it dies to any physical priority. who cares bout the team having pokemon faster than in it if u play koffing well enough n bring it on shit like foo i guarantee u u can just pick 2 kills w it or at least spread a few crucial poisons n burns. its bulk means it can live a hit from most shit too u forgetting that. it puts pressure on basically every defensive core unless u got porygon (momentum sink) or rest talk mudbray (potential momentum sink cuz dat shit just a guessing game). n pain split gives it longevity enough to make an impact.
usually i b respecting ppls opinions n fw a civil discussion but got a bit aggressive on this one cuz this dude started tryna shit talk my post in an asshole way. im fine w yall disagree but b respectful w it
im gonna be respectfully disagreeing w you pokefriend
the reason i dont think koffs broken is bc a) it can be taken advantage of (gets uturned on into psychics or grounds, both some of the most threatening types of mons in the tier) b) while it can pressure teams, it needs to choose its attack well every turn c) some mons just deal w it fine like bulky stuff (frill and pory which while not the best, they arent fringe either) or set up sweepers like tyrunt or magby d) suffers from 4mss between stab split wisp and thief and d) i think it helps the tier way more than it hurts, keeping stuff like foo grook and mare in check.
Ferroseed
diglett
loses to carv frill (waters in general) pawn pinch and mienfoo (and scsrf dig ig)
because a mon being the best doesnt mean its perfect and has no answers. Koffing is one of them
even if i disagree w the conclusion, i think all of this paragraph of reasoning is completely fair to say and true. mons is a more complex game than “has checks=fair and balanced”, and youre not even the first one to say/think that koffing is the root of ss lc’s problems, so dont think that everyone disagrees w you (even tho its not the most popular opinion, but relevant people like dcae think so as well iirc). ngas is a stupid good ability, and koffing changes a lot of how we play lc bc of it.
the reason i dont think koffs broken is bc a) it can be taken advantage of (gets uturned on into psychics or grounds, both some of the most threatening types of mons in the tier) b) while it can pressure teams, it needs to choose its attack well every turn c) some mons just deal w it fine like bulky stuff (frill and pory which while not the best, they arent fringe either) or set up sweepers like tyrunt or magby d) suffers from 4mss between stab split wisp and thief and d) i think it helps the tier way more than it hurts, keeping stuff like foo grook and mare in check.
Foongus dropped off in usage and relevance due to high usage of Natu in the meta, which forces Foongus to do 50/50 between Spore and Sludge Bomb when its facing it. This issue is further compounded by its already-horrendous Ferroseed matchup, and even Foongus didn't ran into a Ferroseed, it has to deal with the bird that blocks status, and that bird is so common. While poisoning Natu is nice, Foongus kinda wants to Spore something more, especially those that Foongus couldn't touch like Pawniard. As a result, Foongus just couldn't get a Spore off in the current meta as freely as it used to be in Vullaby meta, where Eviolite Natu is unviable there, and your alternative option for Spore blocking is your own Foongus or Overcoat Vullaby, which is inferior to Weak Armor set (Overcoat Vullaby did see some usage in DLC1 meta, but that's because Mareanie + Pawn team are the most common teams back then, which had 0 Spore switch-ins. The Vullaby in that team shifted back to Weak Armor as time went on). In Vullaby meta, Foongus is on-par with Koffing (if not, slightly better) in terms of their viability as a Poison-type of choice.
Koffing has nothing to do with this, and if you think Foongus is bad because of it, then you're wrong. Its almost like saying Mareanie, the most common Poison-type in DLC1, fell out in viability during near/early DLC2 Vull-meta because of Diglett, but its not, Diglett has nothing to do with that and i can tell you why if you ask.
I don't see Koffing being the main culprit behind Mareanie falling off, like none whatsoever. What does Koffing's NGas have to do with that? that it hurt Mareanie's viability? Grookey and Diglett are the better culprit as to why Mareanie fall off, and not Koffing, even if those two pokemon are the reason why Koffing is better than Mareanie.
Sun Team, to me, is still an okay cheese team, but everyone had gotten better on how to play around them than before, such as keeping Charmander in check with priority (particularly Mienfoo Fake Out) and some stuff like having a Diglett on a team just prevents Sun Team from leading their Vulpix on turn 1 for free. It struggles right now because its competing with Screens HO or even Spike stack teams as a cheese team of choice due to their better consistency. (Back then, Screens HO is almost non-existent in high-level play post-Zig until in LCPL XI)
What does Koffing have to do with sun's downfall, and what does Koffing even do against it? Getting obliterated by a Vulpix Overheat without Sun on turn 1? Getting melt by a Ponyta's sun-boosted Flare Blitz? Getting torched by Charmander's sun-boosted Fire moves even without its Solar Power because of your low special bulk?
Tell me how to deal with a Z-Conversion Porygon with +1 Speed offensively, and how do you outspeed that thing without scarfers? And relating to this, Corsola-Galar, which is another slow mon, was banned because it is hard to deal with offensively due to its high bulk and access to Wisp + Strength Sap, and it is not just a passive wall from L100 Tiers, as Corsola-Galar abuses its high bulk so hard with its ability to viably run Calm Mind to sweep.
Koffing is not that hard to deal with offensively
I apologized for being a bit rude on that reply earlier, and i have gone a bit far on that rudeness by saying "trash", because that part of reasoning was just one of the worst reasonings i've ever read, its so bad. I'm probably not replying about this Koffing discussion any longer, because its leading to nowhere if i were to continue
sash abra and espurr (if your mentally insane enough to use the cat like me) also switch in
wasn't sayin that koffing and mienfoo limit the meta, cause thats just false
thanks for the help though
Last edited:
sash abra and espurr (if your mentally insane enough to use the cat like me) also switch in
wasn't sayin that koffing and mienfoo limit the meta, cause thats just false
thanks for the help though
I wouldn't recommend using abra, especially if its Sash. You'd be using your 1 sash opportunity (which could be used to kill a pawniard by using counter, among other possible counter targets) instead to switch into a koffing. It doesn't resist any of the hits and it deals quite a bit in return.
196 SpA Koffing Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abra: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
If you're sash in this scenario, your opponent can really easily switch into their Pawniard if they know you're sash and it'd be untouchable and you'd have an extremely low health Abra for your trouble. If you want, you could run an eviolite abra set to take the hits better.
196 SpA Koffing Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Abra: 7-10 (36.8 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)
This is with moderate bulk investment, and if you go any further you have to sacrifice some of your offensive presence. Natu is a much better switch in due to its defensive profile, access to roost, and its set already working around it being defensive.
Air ballon diggy evio diggy spa diggy lax fril natu pory sandygahst hippo sandshrew abra(1 time if not thief) dril if not wilo or if dril isn’t that valuable in the mu and many other mons that can easily contest koffing
Koffing is an amazing asset to the meta denying regen recovery spreading burns and it has arguably the best offensive coverage on a defensive mon in Lc Koff is way to important and not threatening enough to the meta to ban
In the current lc metagame, screens with light clay boosted is way too overpowered.
As some player has stated, screens make unstoppable sweepers like the already banned magby/zizagoon or the top tier sweeper tyrunt even more menacing.
Revenge killing is even harder of a task, and made Little Cup Hyper Offense too good.
Consider non-screens hyper offense also exist and had neat impact on the tier, Screens allow those teams, if possible, to get to new heights of absurdity.
Also, lc is much more fast paced since everyone had level 5 stats and is therefore less bulky than standard play.
Hyper Offensive Teams as a whole is more viable and more used than in standard play because of that.
Screens cut half in damage taken for setup sweepers means extremely deadly situations, especially when your attack is stronger with the metagame difference
As a side note, light clay is banned as high as RU in standard tiering systems due to being overpowered, and those tiers tend to be less offensive overall, but screens withlight clay extended is still problematic despite that.
This ensure for a reasonable light clay ban for Little Cup for players whose thinks that banning other pokemon does the job better.
As a result, I would say that light clay should be banned. To be fair though, Light clay should be suspect tested, not quick banned since its not straight up 'mandatory' and there are definitely counterarguments exists, so suspect test is a more proper way to go.
Extra: If light clay is banned, maybe vulpix-alola could be back, i'm unsure but maybe
Magby however, should really be unbanned if that happens since it relys a lot on screens, and the opportunity cost to run magby would be much higher.
As some player has stated, screens make unstoppable sweepers like the already banned magby/zizagoon or the top tier sweeper tyrunt even more menacing.
Revenge killing is even harder of a task, and made Little Cup Hyper Offense too good.
Consider non-screens hyper offense also exist and had neat impact on the tier, Screens allow those teams, if possible, to get to new heights of absurdity.
Also, lc is much more fast paced since everyone had level 5 stats and is therefore less bulky than standard play.
Hyper Offensive Teams as a whole is more viable and more used than in standard play because of that.
Screens cut half in damage taken for setup sweepers means extremely deadly situations, especially when your attack is stronger with the metagame difference
As a side note, light clay is banned as high as RU in standard tiering systems due to being overpowered, and those tiers tend to be less offensive overall, but screens withlight clay extended is still problematic despite that.
This ensure for a reasonable light clay ban for Little Cup for players whose thinks that banning other pokemon does the job better.
As a result, I would say that light clay should be banned. To be fair though, Light clay should be suspect tested, not quick banned since its not straight up 'mandatory' and there are definitely counterarguments exists, so suspect test is a more proper way to go.
Extra: If light clay is banned, maybe vulpix-alola could be back, i'm unsure but maybe
Magby however, should really be unbanned if that happens since it relys a lot on screens, and the opportunity cost to run magby would be much higher.
And plz stop about banning koffing lol
why people are even trying to defensively answer a koffing bruh...
also as a note, not all koffing runs willowisp
why people are even trying to defensively answer a koffing bruh...
also as a note, not all koffing runs willowisp
In defence of sun
I've been playing nothing but sun for a few months now and I think it's a lot better than most people think. I have never played a truly unwinable matchup and unless I get really unlucky, I know where I misplayed when I lose games. Almost every counter to sun is very manageable and I don't think 1 mon can completely wall a sun team. In this post I want to cover every "counter" people bring up when discussing sun and how to beat it. If I missed anything (which I probably will) feel free to respond. Lastly I didn't include any Pokemon from B- or below since most of these are really uncommon, bad or speak for themselves and I don't want this post to be extremely long (like it isn't right now lol).
This is the team I've been running, peaking around 1600. After a lot of tweaking, I think this is the best sun team since it covers almost every counter in the meta right now but of course I'm open for changes. This is also the team I'm calculating with and considering when discussing counters to sun.
The waters
Carvanha isn't really a thread to this team. Mach punch kills it so you can switch Timburr in on protect. If you lose Timburr you can go for the speed tie with Charmander and kill with weather ball or kill it with Ponyta if you didn't get chipped
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Carvanha in Sun: 19-23 (100 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mareanie is a tough one, it pretty much requires sun to be up, Diglett with sash or a knock of from Timburr
156 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With sun up it can live scald and 2hko it but you're risking a burn.
12 SpA Mareanie Scald vs. 36 HP / 76 SpD Diglett in Sun: 6-8 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
If you do get burned it should leave you at 10hp which is enough for final gambit to kill.
You can maybe cheese with sleep on Vulpix but it's extremely unreliable.
Frillish is pretty tough to deal with but definitely doable. Scarf water spout Frillsh which has become pretty populair doesn't matchup well into sun since it can't reliably ohko anything and is pretty useless after losing hp. Tank Frillsh is a lot harder to deal with but if you can knock it off it dies to solar blade Ponyta, and can't reliably swap into weather ball anymore.
76 Atk Ponyta Solar Blade vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Frillish: 22-26 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 156 HP / 156 SpD Frillish in Sun: 11-13 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
Even with Eviolite you should be able to force it out on 50-40 hp if you have more than 3 sun turns
76 Atk Ponyta Solar Blade vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also frillsh has some laughable attack calcs into sun itself so its basically a sitting duck who can't do much.
0 SpA Frillish Scald vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta in Sun: 2-6 (9.5 - 28.5%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Frillish Scald vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Vulpix in Sun: 8-12 (38 - 57.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Staryu is probably the easiest water type to take care of after maybe Carvanha. Technically you have 2 Staryu sets but they're extremely similar defensive Staryu runs rapid spin instead of psychic, a little hp evs instead of spattack and scald instead of hydro, these changes don't really matter but fyi I used offensive Staryu in the calcs since it is more common. Staryu pretty much dies to solar blade Ponyta after the slightest of chip and it can't really touch you when sun is up.
236 Atk Ponyta Solar Blade vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 16-20 (84.2 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
116 SpA Analytic Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta in Sun: 12-14 (57.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I usually flame charge into solar blade since its the most reliable and it leaves your ponytail with that nice speed boost.
Vulpix also lives hydro so you can throw of an energy ball and kill with Charmander if you lose Ponyta
116 SpA Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Vulpix in Sun: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 SpA Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu: 10-14 (52.6 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu in Sun: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
The trappers
This kinda speaks for itself but if my opponent has trapinch or Diglett I always lead Timburr since it is a pretty free knock off, and with a slow u-turn Larvesta it isn't hard to get sun up without leading Vulpix.
Diglett is a lot more annoying, if it's holding a sash or scarf it can revenge kill Charmander, Vulpix and Ponyta. However sash only takes 1 sucker or mach punch to break and scarf is so uncommon I've only seen it once. Also if you don't get unlucky you can live earthquake and kill Diglett with solar blade (as long as its air balloon or eviolite).
156 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I wouldn't really count trapinch as a counter since Charmander ohko's it with overheat/fireblast. The only annoying thing trapinch can do is trap Vulpix, but even that it doesn't do 100% reliably.
196 SpA Vulpix Overheat vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Trapinch in Sun: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Priority
Mienfoo fake out isn't really a counter to Charmander, it deals way to little dmg, dies to weather ball at 100% and if Charmander gets low, Larvesta is a pretty free swap.
0 Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo in Sun: 19-24 (90.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
The only threatening move Mienfoo can run is stone edge since is kills Larvesta.
0 Atk Mienfoo Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Larvesta: 20-28 (86.9 - 121.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Discussed before, sucker doesn't really hurt Charmander
156 Atk Diglett Sucker Punch vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Sash Diglett revenge kills Charmander and Vulpix but as long as you break the sash it can't touch you.
I've never really had an issue with Pawniard. Timburr, who should be on the majority of sun teams because of defog, destroys pawn with mach punch, and even without Timburr, Charmander can still dish a few weather balls out after a pawn sucker punch:
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
Sash rocks can't do anything against Timburr so its really easy to keep rocks off. just remember the defiant boost from defog.
Grookey obviously has a terrible matchup against sun. If the opponent doesn't run any trappers, you can almost always swap in Ponyta on Grookey without getting punished. Eviolite grassy glide only deals around 30% to your team and the terrain is nice recovery.
Grassy seed grookey with +2 still can't really touch your team.
+2 236 Atk Grookey Grassy Glide vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander in Grassy Terrain: 14-17 (66.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 236 Atk Grookey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta in Grassy Terrain: 8-9 (38 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
First impression Trapinch doesn't touch your team ever unless you're super low, and as previously stated gets ohko'ed by Charmander.
36+ Atk Trapinch First Impression vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 4HKO
Timburr is not the easiest to deal with since you can't reliably ohko it with weather ball if it runs any spdef or hp ev's (overheat and fireblast do kill though)
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr in Sun: 19-24 (79.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Also Timburr's mach punch hurts a lot with iron fist
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
The really scary Timburr set is bulk up though. If Timburr gets +3 up you lose the game, he ohko's your special attackers with mach punch and gets too bulky for physical attackers. If he gets +2 up and your Vulpix or Charmander isn't 90+ hp you lose so you have to be really careful. +1 Timburr also 2hko's your specials so you can't swap them in after the first bulk up without risking mach punch on the swap. It's definitely possible to deal with bulk up though. If Timburr sets up on Larvesta you can u-turn to your specials. If you flare blitz into bulk up with sun you can kill it with another.
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr in Sun: 18-22 (75 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr in Sun: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or if really necessary, you can sacrifice something like Diglett with final gambit to get the free switch.
Other threads
`Porygon is here because defensive Porygon is rlly hard to deal with. It walls Charmander and completely shuts it down with thunder wave.
196 SpA Charmander Overheat vs. 156 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It also has recover which makes it tricky to chip down. The scariest thing about this set though is trace, If your opponent traces your flash fire it becomes pretty scary. Timburr can't ohko it with drain punch without knocking off first but thunder wave can fuck you over with para hax.
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Agility is also scary because it barely outspends and kills charmander with the same recovery defensive Porygon has
+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Charmander: 22-27 (104.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, it does get 2hko'ed by charmander and Timburr ohko's it with a little chip damage
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Scarf Porygon is pretty manageable, Charmander outspends and unless you throw Timburr it can't really deal that much damage
Berry juice Ponyta is probably the easier matchup of the 2 sets but it still walls charmander while threatening high horsepower. You can use your evio Ponyta to kill it with high horsepower while tanking theirs.
236 Atk Ponyta High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta High Horsepower vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Ponyta: 22-26 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sash Diglett kills it even with flame charge as long as you get a free switch.
Eviolite Ponyta is harder to counter, you don't have the same high horsepower advantage so it becomes a speed tie and Diglettt can't ohko it. However it's pretty uncommon for evio Ponyta to run high horsepower and if they don't you can kill it with your own.
I hate Tyrunt. I have one really specific tactic to deal with this mon but it requires sash to be up on Diglett, Timburr to be alive and not burned and to sacrifice 1 mon for a little chip dmg and a free switch. Timburr and Diglett can deal dmg with priority moves to take care of Tyrunt.
156 Atk Diglett Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 4-5 (18.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 12-14 (54.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But for this to work you need 6hp of chip. This isn't really a problem. Every mon on the team can deal 6hp most of the time (6hp is 27%)
0 Atk Larvesta U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
196 SpA Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Tyrunt: 5-7 (22.7 - 31.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO (Possible damage amounts: (5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7) so you would be really unlucky do low roll on energy ball, sucker and mach)
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Tyrunt in Sun: 4-6 (18.1 - 27.2%) -- 1.4% chance to 4HKO (since you outspend after 1 dd you can weather ball twice for the dmg).
This is a really consistent counter but it requires a lot of resources. If your opponent doesn't have any other hard counters its usually an ok trade
Rocks are horrible for this team and Dwebble is one of the best rockers in the tier. you can beat Dwebble and keep rocks off with but it leaves your Timburr low so make sure you only use this Strat if you don't need hp on Timburr. Swap Timburr in on rocks, defog on knockoff.
156 Atk Dwebble Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 2-3 (8.3 - 12.5%) -- possible 8HKO
Knock off on rocks
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Dwebble: 5-7 (23.8 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
Defog again on rock blast
156 Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Timburr: 6-9 (25 - 37.5%) -- approx. 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Mach punch on rocks (you don't want to kill it with drain because your opponent could deny defog with the free switch
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 116 Def Dwebble: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Then you can defog on rock blast again and knock it out with mach punch. This leaves your Timburr knocked off and around 30% so it could still be useful for Carvhana Pawniard or Tyrunt but other than that its out of the game. If you need Timburr to wall something like Frillish you can lead Diglett into Dwebble, abuse Weak Armor with beat up to lower its defence to 0 and sucker to knock it out. Then you can either switch to Diglett and defog since its at full health or final gambit and go Timburr depending on your opponents switch.
Shell smash Dwebble gets walled by Timburr as long as you have 60% hp.
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 11-14 (45.8 - 58.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
If you don't have Timburr healthy though you get swept if you let it set up.
Mudbray is hard to deal with since it runs scarf or rocks. You can't really switch Timburr into Mudbray like you can with Dwebble. Luckily you can ohko it with Charmander.
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Dwebble in Sun: 24-28 (114.2 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Same thing goes for scarf, but if you manage to knock its scarf of you can beat it with Ponyta too.
Onix is a lot like Dwebble, it gets walled by Timburr but if you lose Timburr you're fucked. Usually this set leads to set rocks but you can take care of that with defog -> knock -> defog - >mach -> defog -> mach or knock -> drain if they can't deny defog with something like Abra.
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 59.1% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 12-14 (57.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you realise its not sturdy-juice you can ohko it with solar blade.
236 Atk Ponyta Solar Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Onix: 20-28 (100 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sturdy-juice can actually only switch into weather ball once and other sets can't switch in at all unless you lowball.
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Onix in Sun: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Onix in Sun: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
Archen's scarf set is extremely scary since it speed ties with Charmander. It's really manageable if you get it below deafest range.
180 Atk Defeatist Archen Earthquake vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It kills your entire team with either dual wingbeat or earthquake except Larvesta and Ponyta the former can't really touch Archen.
180 Atk Archen Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 76 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Larvesta: 16-24 (69.5 - 104.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
180 Atk Archen Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So you have 4 mons that can hit it to get it below 50%, u-turn/flare blitz Larvesta, mach punch Timburr, sucker Diglett or Ponyta.
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 9-11 (39.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Larvesta U-turn vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 5-6 (21.7 - 26%) -- 73.8% chance to 4HKO
156 Atk Diglett Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Solar Blade vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flame Charge vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 4-6 (17.3 - 26%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
Your best option is probably flame charge+solar blade/flare blitz if sun is not up but anything that brings it below 50 works.
Berry juice Archen is a lot less threatening, any amount of chip gets it in range of Charmander overheat.
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Overheat vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Archen in Sun: 19-23 (86.3 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Scarf gets destroyed by any fire attack, get outside by Charmander and Diglett ohko's it as long as mag doesn't flash cannon on a switch.
Sturdy juice is really annoying since it can stall sun turns easily but if you get a u-turn on it its dead to Diglett. also flame charge Ponyta can pp stall recycle or force it out.
Munchlax is scary but as long as you don't let it set up to +2 you can kill it with Timburr. Swap after curse 1, drain on curse 2 to proc berry juice. drain on curse 3 to get it to 12hp and then you knock it out with drain before curse 4 can go off. Munchlax doesn't get any breathing room for recycles. at its best it can stall you 16 drain punch pp but if you crit once its over which with the highball of the first drain punch is around 70% (im not a statistic genius so this might be wrong).
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 24-30 (80 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. +2 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 14-20 (46.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. +3 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 14-18 (46.6 - 60%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
I don't really know how hard Shellos is to deal with since its a crit-me-not sweeper and im not dealing with the statistics of crits and I can't remember the last time I fought a Shellos. you could probably do something with final gambit Diglett and solar power Ponyta but you risk the recover on the final gambit.
I've been playing nothing but sun for a few months now and I think it's a lot better than most people think. I have never played a truly unwinable matchup and unless I get really unlucky, I know where I misplayed when I lose games. Almost every counter to sun is very manageable and I don't think 1 mon can completely wall a sun team. In this post I want to cover every "counter" people bring up when discussing sun and how to beat it. If I missed anything (which I probably will) feel free to respond. Lastly I didn't include any Pokemon from B- or below since most of these are really uncommon, bad or speak for themselves and I don't want this post to be extremely long (like it isn't right now lol).
This is the team I've been running, peaking around 1600. After a lot of tweaking, I think this is the best sun team since it covers almost every counter in the meta right now but of course I'm open for changes. This is also the team I'm calculating with and considering when discussing counters to sun.
The waters
Carvanha isn't really a thread to this team. Mach punch kills it so you can switch Timburr in on protect. If you lose Timburr you can go for the speed tie with Charmander and kill with weather ball or kill it with Ponyta if you didn't get chipped
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Carvanha in Sun: 19-23 (100 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mareanie is a tough one, it pretty much requires sun to be up, Diglett with sash or a knock of from Timburr
156 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With sun up it can live scald and 2hko it but you're risking a burn.
12 SpA Mareanie Scald vs. 36 HP / 76 SpD Diglett in Sun: 6-8 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
If you do get burned it should leave you at 10hp which is enough for final gambit to kill.
You can maybe cheese with sleep on Vulpix but it's extremely unreliable.
Frillish is pretty tough to deal with but definitely doable. Scarf water spout Frillsh which has become pretty populair doesn't matchup well into sun since it can't reliably ohko anything and is pretty useless after losing hp. Tank Frillsh is a lot harder to deal with but if you can knock it off it dies to solar blade Ponyta, and can't reliably swap into weather ball anymore.
76 Atk Ponyta Solar Blade vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Frillish: 22-26 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 156 HP / 156 SpD Frillish in Sun: 11-13 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
Even with Eviolite you should be able to force it out on 50-40 hp if you have more than 3 sun turns
76 Atk Ponyta Solar Blade vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also frillsh has some laughable attack calcs into sun itself so its basically a sitting duck who can't do much.
0 SpA Frillish Scald vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta in Sun: 2-6 (9.5 - 28.5%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Frillish Scald vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Vulpix in Sun: 8-12 (38 - 57.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Staryu is probably the easiest water type to take care of after maybe Carvanha. Technically you have 2 Staryu sets but they're extremely similar defensive Staryu runs rapid spin instead of psychic, a little hp evs instead of spattack and scald instead of hydro, these changes don't really matter but fyi I used offensive Staryu in the calcs since it is more common. Staryu pretty much dies to solar blade Ponyta after the slightest of chip and it can't really touch you when sun is up.
236 Atk Ponyta Solar Blade vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 16-20 (84.2 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
116 SpA Analytic Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta in Sun: 12-14 (57.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I usually flame charge into solar blade since its the most reliable and it leaves your ponytail with that nice speed boost.
Vulpix also lives hydro so you can throw of an energy ball and kill with Charmander if you lose Ponyta
116 SpA Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Vulpix in Sun: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 SpA Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu: 10-14 (52.6 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu in Sun: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
The trappers
This kinda speaks for itself but if my opponent has trapinch or Diglett I always lead Timburr since it is a pretty free knock off, and with a slow u-turn Larvesta it isn't hard to get sun up without leading Vulpix.
Diglett is a lot more annoying, if it's holding a sash or scarf it can revenge kill Charmander, Vulpix and Ponyta. However sash only takes 1 sucker or mach punch to break and scarf is so uncommon I've only seen it once. Also if you don't get unlucky you can live earthquake and kill Diglett with solar blade (as long as its air balloon or eviolite).
156 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I wouldn't really count trapinch as a counter since Charmander ohko's it with overheat/fireblast. The only annoying thing trapinch can do is trap Vulpix, but even that it doesn't do 100% reliably.
196 SpA Vulpix Overheat vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Trapinch in Sun: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Priority
Mienfoo fake out isn't really a counter to Charmander, it deals way to little dmg, dies to weather ball at 100% and if Charmander gets low, Larvesta is a pretty free swap.
0 Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo in Sun: 19-24 (90.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
The only threatening move Mienfoo can run is stone edge since is kills Larvesta.
0 Atk Mienfoo Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Larvesta: 20-28 (86.9 - 121.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Discussed before, sucker doesn't really hurt Charmander
156 Atk Diglett Sucker Punch vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Sash Diglett revenge kills Charmander and Vulpix but as long as you break the sash it can't touch you.
I've never really had an issue with Pawniard. Timburr, who should be on the majority of sun teams because of defog, destroys pawn with mach punch, and even without Timburr, Charmander can still dish a few weather balls out after a pawn sucker punch:
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
Sash rocks can't do anything against Timburr so its really easy to keep rocks off. just remember the defiant boost from defog.
Grookey obviously has a terrible matchup against sun. If the opponent doesn't run any trappers, you can almost always swap in Ponyta on Grookey without getting punished. Eviolite grassy glide only deals around 30% to your team and the terrain is nice recovery.
Grassy seed grookey with +2 still can't really touch your team.
+2 236 Atk Grookey Grassy Glide vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander in Grassy Terrain: 14-17 (66.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 236 Atk Grookey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta in Grassy Terrain: 8-9 (38 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
First impression Trapinch doesn't touch your team ever unless you're super low, and as previously stated gets ohko'ed by Charmander.
36+ Atk Trapinch First Impression vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 4HKO
Timburr is not the easiest to deal with since you can't reliably ohko it with weather ball if it runs any spdef or hp ev's (overheat and fireblast do kill though)
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr in Sun: 19-24 (79.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Also Timburr's mach punch hurts a lot with iron fist
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
The really scary Timburr set is bulk up though. If Timburr gets +3 up you lose the game, he ohko's your special attackers with mach punch and gets too bulky for physical attackers. If he gets +2 up and your Vulpix or Charmander isn't 90+ hp you lose so you have to be really careful. +1 Timburr also 2hko's your specials so you can't swap them in after the first bulk up without risking mach punch on the swap. It's definitely possible to deal with bulk up though. If Timburr sets up on Larvesta you can u-turn to your specials. If you flare blitz into bulk up with sun you can kill it with another.
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr in Sun: 18-22 (75 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr in Sun: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or if really necessary, you can sacrifice something like Diglett with final gambit to get the free switch.
Other threads
`Porygon is here because defensive Porygon is rlly hard to deal with. It walls Charmander and completely shuts it down with thunder wave.
196 SpA Charmander Overheat vs. 156 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It also has recover which makes it tricky to chip down. The scariest thing about this set though is trace, If your opponent traces your flash fire it becomes pretty scary. Timburr can't ohko it with drain punch without knocking off first but thunder wave can fuck you over with para hax.
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Agility is also scary because it barely outspends and kills charmander with the same recovery defensive Porygon has
+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Charmander: 22-27 (104.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, it does get 2hko'ed by charmander and Timburr ohko's it with a little chip damage
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Scarf Porygon is pretty manageable, Charmander outspends and unless you throw Timburr it can't really deal that much damage
Berry juice Ponyta is probably the easier matchup of the 2 sets but it still walls charmander while threatening high horsepower. You can use your evio Ponyta to kill it with high horsepower while tanking theirs.
236 Atk Ponyta High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta High Horsepower vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Ponyta: 22-26 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sash Diglett kills it even with flame charge as long as you get a free switch.
Eviolite Ponyta is harder to counter, you don't have the same high horsepower advantage so it becomes a speed tie and Diglettt can't ohko it. However it's pretty uncommon for evio Ponyta to run high horsepower and if they don't you can kill it with your own.
I hate Tyrunt. I have one really specific tactic to deal with this mon but it requires sash to be up on Diglett, Timburr to be alive and not burned and to sacrifice 1 mon for a little chip dmg and a free switch. Timburr and Diglett can deal dmg with priority moves to take care of Tyrunt.
156 Atk Diglett Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 4-5 (18.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 12-14 (54.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But for this to work you need 6hp of chip. This isn't really a problem. Every mon on the team can deal 6hp most of the time (6hp is 27%)
0 Atk Larvesta U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
196 SpA Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Tyrunt: 5-7 (22.7 - 31.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO (Possible damage amounts: (5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7) so you would be really unlucky do low roll on energy ball, sucker and mach)
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Tyrunt in Sun: 4-6 (18.1 - 27.2%) -- 1.4% chance to 4HKO (since you outspend after 1 dd you can weather ball twice for the dmg).
This is a really consistent counter but it requires a lot of resources. If your opponent doesn't have any other hard counters its usually an ok trade
Rocks are horrible for this team and Dwebble is one of the best rockers in the tier. you can beat Dwebble and keep rocks off with but it leaves your Timburr low so make sure you only use this Strat if you don't need hp on Timburr. Swap Timburr in on rocks, defog on knockoff.
156 Atk Dwebble Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 2-3 (8.3 - 12.5%) -- possible 8HKO
Knock off on rocks
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Dwebble: 5-7 (23.8 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
Defog again on rock blast
156 Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Timburr: 6-9 (25 - 37.5%) -- approx. 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Mach punch on rocks (you don't want to kill it with drain because your opponent could deny defog with the free switch
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 116 Def Dwebble: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Then you can defog on rock blast again and knock it out with mach punch. This leaves your Timburr knocked off and around 30% so it could still be useful for Carvhana Pawniard or Tyrunt but other than that its out of the game. If you need Timburr to wall something like Frillish you can lead Diglett into Dwebble, abuse Weak Armor with beat up to lower its defence to 0 and sucker to knock it out. Then you can either switch to Diglett and defog since its at full health or final gambit and go Timburr depending on your opponents switch.
Shell smash Dwebble gets walled by Timburr as long as you have 60% hp.
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 11-14 (45.8 - 58.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
If you don't have Timburr healthy though you get swept if you let it set up.
Mudbray is hard to deal with since it runs scarf or rocks. You can't really switch Timburr into Mudbray like you can with Dwebble. Luckily you can ohko it with Charmander.
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Dwebble in Sun: 24-28 (114.2 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Same thing goes for scarf, but if you manage to knock its scarf of you can beat it with Ponyta too.
Onix is a lot like Dwebble, it gets walled by Timburr but if you lose Timburr you're fucked. Usually this set leads to set rocks but you can take care of that with defog -> knock -> defog - >mach -> defog -> mach or knock -> drain if they can't deny defog with something like Abra.
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 59.1% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 12-14 (57.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you realise its not sturdy-juice you can ohko it with solar blade.
236 Atk Ponyta Solar Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Onix: 20-28 (100 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sturdy-juice can actually only switch into weather ball once and other sets can't switch in at all unless you lowball.
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Onix in Sun: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Onix in Sun: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
Archen's scarf set is extremely scary since it speed ties with Charmander. It's really manageable if you get it below deafest range.
180 Atk Defeatist Archen Earthquake vs. 44 HP / 12 Def Charmander: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It kills your entire team with either dual wingbeat or earthquake except Larvesta and Ponyta the former can't really touch Archen.
180 Atk Archen Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 76 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Larvesta: 16-24 (69.5 - 104.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
180 Atk Archen Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So you have 4 mons that can hit it to get it below 50%, u-turn/flare blitz Larvesta, mach punch Timburr, sucker Diglett or Ponyta.
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 9-11 (39.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Larvesta U-turn vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 5-6 (21.7 - 26%) -- 73.8% chance to 4HKO
156 Atk Diglett Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Solar Blade vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flame Charge vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 4-6 (17.3 - 26%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
Your best option is probably flame charge+solar blade/flare blitz if sun is not up but anything that brings it below 50 works.
Berry juice Archen is a lot less threatening, any amount of chip gets it in range of Charmander overheat.
196 SpA Solar Power Charmander Overheat vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Archen in Sun: 19-23 (86.3 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Scarf gets destroyed by any fire attack, get outside by Charmander and Diglett ohko's it as long as mag doesn't flash cannon on a switch.
Sturdy juice is really annoying since it can stall sun turns easily but if you get a u-turn on it its dead to Diglett. also flame charge Ponyta can pp stall recycle or force it out.
Munchlax is scary but as long as you don't let it set up to +2 you can kill it with Timburr. Swap after curse 1, drain on curse 2 to proc berry juice. drain on curse 3 to get it to 12hp and then you knock it out with drain before curse 4 can go off. Munchlax doesn't get any breathing room for recycles. at its best it can stall you 16 drain punch pp but if you crit once its over which with the highball of the first drain punch is around 70% (im not a statistic genius so this might be wrong).
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 24-30 (80 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. +2 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 14-20 (46.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. +3 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 14-18 (46.6 - 60%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
I don't really know how hard Shellos is to deal with since its a crit-me-not sweeper and im not dealing with the statistics of crits and I can't remember the last time I fought a Shellos. you could probably do something with final gambit Diglett and solar power Ponyta but you risk the recover on the final gambit.
Attachments
I've noticed that Sandygast has been receiving more attention in tours, and I wanted to make a post on it.
Sandygast @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Compaction
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Def / 236 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Shadow Ball
- Earth Power
- Shore Up
This is the set that I use for it. It acts as a ground-type with recovery, that is able to set up Stealth Rocks vs things such as
which would be scared to come in on a Shadow Ball. It works as a soft check to Rock-Types such as 
and , certain physical attackers like 
, and threatens things such as and 
with Earth Power. It also does the Ground-Types' job of checking 
, but with more efficiency due to reliable recovery.It does have bad matchups into other things in the metagame, such as
and as well as the abundance of Knock Off, however, I believe it works well due to how it can check Pokemon that other Pokemon on your team may struggle against.