Pet Mod Megamax (Quick Update @ Post #432)

[zedhatool]

Now that the first retooling slate is over and round 1 of WCOP has ended, I want to raise a concern about retooling Cinderace. Cinderace has proven to be a top 5 offensive threat, if not a top 5 Pokémon. The combination of high speed and decent attack with its movepool and Libero make it a really stellar pokemon. This is where the problem arises. As I see it, there are basically three things you can do with a Megamax:

1. Add/change the typing
2. Change the ability
3. Add/subtract moves

I want to focus on numbers 1 and 2 to start. With 1, Cinderace has one of the best offensive abilities. The current Mega Cinderace, despite also having an amazing ability in Magic Guard, is, for a variety of reasons outclassed. One of those reasons is that the fundamental drawback of an offensive fire type is hazard damage. Without an ability that mitigates that, it's hard to see any Mega Cinderace being as good as its base form. On the other side of the coin, giving these submissions a defensive ability like Magic Guard makes them offensively weaker than base Ace. I think you can see the problem: there is not an ability that can provide Mega Cinderace with both the offensive presence of base Ace AND the defensive utility of Heavy Duty Boots.

A potential solution to this is to increase Cinderace's base stats until it is stronger than the base form even without Libero. The following calc is Jolly Libero Cinderace U-turn against a 252HP/252Def Bold Typeless Mew.

base

252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 87-103 (21.5 - 25.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO

In order to have the same attacking power as base Cinderace with its coverage moves, Cinderace-Mega would have to have 235 Base attack. For reference, a 235 base attack Adamant Nature Cinderace is stronger than Banded Tyranitar. This is also an impossible change: 235-116>100, meaning that it is not mathematically possible to make Mega Cinderace stronger with its coverage than base Ace while still having an ability that mitigates hazard chip.
This leaves a potential submission with a few options:

1. Keep Libero and go for base stat and movepool changes (dual typing won't matter with libero, and it will presumably have to keep the fire type)
2. Add a typing, keep a defensive ability, and change base stats and movepool
3. Give Mega Cinderace an offensive ability, keep the mono-fire type, and change base stats and movepool
4. Give Mega Cinderace an offensive ability, make it dual-type, and change the base stats and movepool

Option 1 is going to be broken. We would give a Pokémon that is already one of the best offensive threats in the game an Attack boost? Hippowdon or Charizard-Gmax will become necessary on every team. Even worse, Cinderace can actually beat Hippowdon 1v1 with Bulk Up, and Charizard-Gmax only fits on full stall teams. Slowbro, another potential check, is worn down by U-Turn, which forces it to Slack Off, making it bait for whichever of Mega Cinderace's partners is coming in. Option 1, in my opinion, will be a disaster.
Option 2 will most likely be outclassed by base Ace. Base Ace is a pivot with access to STAB U-Turn and none of the drawbacks of Bug Typing. I don't really see many dual types that could improve its ability as a pivot. At the end of the day, Cinderace is one of the best offensive pivots ever created. It's going to be quite difficult for any submission to be a more effective offensive pivot.
Option 3 will likely be outclassed by base Ace. Taking 25% from Stealth Rocks sucks, and the power increase probably will not be enough to justify the lack of longevity, especially given that balance is so good right now. What balance team would pick a breaker that can't use boots and dies to Stealth Rock over a fantastic offensive pivot that can use boots and has stronger coverage?
Option 4 has a chance of working, especially if the second type resists rock. Something like Fire/Steel (as earl suggested) could be good, especially with a good offensive ability.

The point of this post is to show that making Mega Cinderace is going to be extremely difficult. If we make it a better regular Cinderace, it is going to be broken. If we try and preserve its niche as a pivot without Libero, it will likely be outclassed by base Ace. I believe that the only way to make a Mega Cinderace that is both viable (not outclassed) and not broken is to give it a second type and an offensive ability.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Now that the first retooling slate is over and round 1 of WCOP has ended, I want to raise a concern about retooling Cinderace. Cinderace has proven to be a top 5 offensive threat, if not a top 5 Pokémon. The combination of high speed and decent attack with its movepool and Libero make it a really stellar pokemon. This is where the problem arises. As I see it, there are basically three things you can do with a Megamax:

1. Add/change the typing
2. Change the ability
3. Add/subtract moves

I want to focus on numbers 1 and 2 to start. With 1, Cinderace has one of the best offensive abilities. The current Mega Cinderace, despite also having an amazing ability in Magic Guard, is, for a variety of reasons outclassed. One of those reasons is that the fundamental drawback of an offensive fire type is hazard damage. Without an ability that mitigates that, it's hard to see any Mega Cinderace being as good as its base form. On the other side of the coin, giving these submissions a defensive ability like Magic Guard makes them offensively weaker than base Ace. I think you can see the problem: there is not an ability that can provide Mega Cinderace with both the offensive presence of base Ace AND the defensive utility of Heavy Duty Boots.

A potential solution to this is to increase Cinderace's base stats until it is stronger than the base form even without Libero. The following calc is Jolly Libero Cinderace U-turn against a 252HP/252Def Bold Typeless Mew.

base

252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 87-103 (21.5 - 25.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO

In order to have the same attacking power as base Cinderace with its coverage moves, Cinderace-Mega would have to have 235 Base attack. For reference, a 235 base attack Adamant Nature Cinderace is stronger than Banded Tyranitar. This is also an impossible change: 235-116>100, meaning that it is not mathematically possible to make Mega Cinderace stronger with its coverage than base Ace while still having an ability that mitigates hazard chip.
This leaves a potential submission with a few options:

1. Keep Libero and go for base stat and movepool changes (dual typing won't matter with libero, and it will presumably have to keep the fire type)
2. Add a typing, keep a defensive ability, and change base stats and movepool
3. Give Mega Cinderace an offensive ability, keep the mono-fire type, and change base stats and movepool
4. Give Mega Cinderace an offensive ability, make it dual-type, and change the base stats and movepool

Option 1 is going to be broken. We would give a Pokémon that is already one of the best offensive threats in the game an Attack boost? Hippowdon or Charizard-Gmax will become necessary on every team. Even worse, Cinderace can actually beat Hippowdon 1v1 with Bulk Up, and Charizard-Gmax only fits on full stall teams. Slowbro, another potential check, is worn down by U-Turn, which forces it to Slack Off, making it bait for whichever of Mega Cinderace's partners is coming in. Option 1, in my opinion, will be a disaster.
Option 2 will most likely be outclassed by base Ace. Base Ace is a pivot with access to STAB U-Turn and none of the drawbacks of Bug Typing. I don't really see many dual types that could improve its ability as a pivot. At the end of the day, Cinderace is one of the best offensive pivots ever created. It's going to be quite difficult for any submission to be a more effective offensive pivot.
Option 3 will likely be outclassed by base Ace. Taking 25% from Stealth Rocks sucks, and the power increase probably will not be enough to justify the lack of longevity, especially given that balance is so good right now. What balance team would pick a breaker that can't use boots and dies to Stealth Rock over a fantastic offensive pivot that can use boots and has stronger coverage?
Option 4 has a chance of working, especially if the second type resists rock. Something like Fire/Steel (as earl suggested) could be good, especially with a good offensive ability.

The point of this post is to show that making Mega Cinderace is going to be extremely difficult. If we make it a better regular Cinderace, it is going to be broken. If we try and preserve its niche as a pivot without Libero, it will likely be outclassed by base Ace. I believe that the only way to make a Mega Cinderace that is both viable (not outclassed) and not broken is to give it a second type and an offensive ability.

Another possibility could be a more drastic role shift like Mega Pidgeot or even Mega Diancie. Mega Cinderace could be a special attacker (though it would need a better special movepool; the only thing it really has over regular Cinderace is Ground coverage) or a full-on defensive Pokemon. Either way, it wouldn't directly compete with regular Cinderace.

 

[Ehmcee]

Now that the first retooling slate is over and round 1 of WCOP has ended, I want to raise a concern about retooling Cinderace. Cinderace has proven to be a top 5 offensive threat, if not a top 5 Pokémon. The combination of high speed and decent attack with its movepool and Libero make it a really stellar pokemon. This is where the problem arises. As I see it, there are basically three things you can do with a Megamax:

1. Add/change the typing
2. Change the ability
3. Add/subtract moves

I want to focus on numbers 1 and 2 to start. With 1, Cinderace has one of the best offensive abilities. The current Mega Cinderace, despite also having an amazing ability in Magic Guard, is, for a variety of reasons outclassed. One of those reasons is that the fundamental drawback of an offensive fire type is hazard damage. Without an ability that mitigates that, it's hard to see any Mega Cinderace being as good as its base form. On the other side of the coin, giving these submissions a defensive ability like Magic Guard makes them offensively weaker than base Ace. I think you can see the problem: there is not an ability that can provide Mega Cinderace with both the offensive presence of base Ace AND the defensive utility of Heavy Duty Boots.

A potential solution to this is to increase Cinderace's base stats until it is stronger than the base form even without Libero. The following calc is Jolly Libero Cinderace U-turn against a 252HP/252Def Bold Typeless Mew.

base

252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 87-103 (21.5 - 25.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO

In order to have the same attacking power as base Cinderace with its coverage moves, Cinderace-Mega would have to have 235 Base attack. For reference, a 235 base attack Adamant Nature Cinderace is stronger than Banded Tyranitar. This is also an impossible change: 235-116>100, meaning that it is not mathematically possible to make Mega Cinderace stronger with its coverage than base Ace while still having an ability that mitigates hazard chip.
This leaves a potential submission with a few options:

1. Keep Libero and go for base stat and movepool changes (dual typing won't matter with libero, and it will presumably have to keep the fire type)
2. Add a typing, keep a defensive ability, and change base stats and movepool
3. Give Mega Cinderace an offensive ability, keep the mono-fire type, and change base stats and movepool
4. Give Mega Cinderace an offensive ability, make it dual-type, and change the base stats and movepool

Option 1 is going to be broken. We would give a Pokémon that is already one of the best offensive threats in the game an Attack boost? Hippowdon or Charizard-Gmax will become necessary on every team. Even worse, Cinderace can actually beat Hippowdon 1v1 with Bulk Up, and Charizard-Gmax only fits on full stall teams. Slowbro, another potential check, is worn down by U-Turn, which forces it to Slack Off, making it bait for whichever of Mega Cinderace's partners is coming in. Option 1, in my opinion, will be a disaster.
Option 2 will most likely be outclassed by base Ace. Base Ace is a pivot with access to STAB U-Turn and none of the drawbacks of Bug Typing. I don't really see many dual types that could improve its ability as a pivot. At the end of the day, Cinderace is one of the best offensive pivots ever created. It's going to be quite difficult for any submission to be a more effective offensive pivot.
Option 3 will likely be outclassed by base Ace. Taking 25% from Stealth Rocks sucks, and the power increase probably will not be enough to justify the lack of longevity, especially given that balance is so good right now. What balance team would pick a breaker that can't use boots and dies to Stealth Rock over a fantastic offensive pivot that can use boots and has stronger coverage?
Option 4 has a chance of working, especially if the second type resists rock. Something like Fire/Steel (as earl suggested) could be good, especially with a good offensive ability.

The point of this post is to show that making Mega Cinderace is going to be extremely difficult. If we make it a better regular Cinderace, it is going to be broken. If we try and preserve its niche as a pivot without Libero, it will likely be outclassed by base Ace. I believe that the only way to make a Mega Cinderace that is both viable (not outclassed) and not broken is to give it a second type and an offensive ability.

Another possibility that I could personally see (but some could 100% disagree), is buffing mega cinderace by nerfing base cinderace through movepool changes, examples of this could be through the removal of zen headbutt and/or hjk, mega cinderace wouldn't be using these moves a lot in the first place, and gives people more of a reason to use the mon.

Obviously you'd have to at least bring some of the aforementionned changes as well.

Another interesting ability change is a magic guard clone, that makes the user only be affected by attacks that deal direct damage (which would also make it immune to hazards) .
This would boost Mega Cinderace's niche as a defensive pivot, being able to come in on something like an amoonguss and not being afraid of sleep, or a ferrothorn and not scared of a thunder wave or a toxic, but could seem somewhat broken, so some kind of offensive nerfs could definitely be fine.

 

[Ludicrousity]

Changes are live on main now. Go try them out!


I'll be hosting a server tournament soon-ish. About half an hour

 

[War Incarnate]

Hey Yung Dramps, when is the next slate starting?

 

[earl]

Hey Yung Dramps, when is the next slate starting?

Way, way, way too early to make any balance changes

 

[War Incarnate]

Way, way, way too early to make any balance changes

ah... i see now

we need time to test out the new reworks.

 

[Marigold]

Decided to try a more utility-oriented approach to Megamax Butterfree:

defensive teleport

Butterfree-Gmax @ Butterfrite
Ability: Compound Eyes -> Tinted Lens
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 28 Spe
- Sleep Powder
- Roost
- Moonblast
- Teleport

Butterfree can check some menaces like Dragapult, Zeraora, Urshifu, and more with a defensive spread and some good utility moves! This Butterfree set can also turn conventional switch-ins into momentum drains. Sleep Powder can catch steel types except Ferrothorn (which is walled by this slow Butterfree anyway, making it Teleport fodder), and Teleport gains momentum against passive switch-ins like Toxapex which doesn't do much to Butterfree. The lowered speed is just enough to underspeed uninvested Clefable, ensuring that your Teleport goes second.


<---- Click me!

I used this Butterfree set in a room tournament and it did decently (though I got kinda lucky in a few turns), but there's a lot to be optimized about it. I do think that the new Megamax Butterfree has some good variety in how to play it though, and I'm looking forward to seeing its metagame development in the future!

 

[Ehmcee]

A mon that I think deserves a buff right now is Mega Hatterene


Atk: -30
SpA: +15
Def: +15

Ability: Persistent -> Tricky Surge

Tricky Surge: Creates Trick Room on switchin (I'd propose 4 turns, so it would be reduced to 3 on a switchin).

The main problem with Mega Hatterene right now is that it has to setup Trick Room itself to benefit from Persistent, which makes it very predictable and easily counterable, this isn't helped by Hatterene's abismal HP stat, which'll make it 2hko'd by most strong physical hits anyway.
A trick room on switchin makes Mega Hatterene into an amazing revenge killer, as well as a well needed tool for Trick Room teams.

 

[earl]

A mon that I think deserves a buff right now is Mega Hatterene


Atk: -30
SpA: +15
Def: +15

Ability: Persistent -> Tricky Surge

Tricky Surge: Creates Trick Room on switchin (I'd propose 4 turns, so it would be reduced to 3 on a switchin).

The main problem with Mega Hatterene right now is that it has to setup Trick Room itself to benefit from Persistent, which makes it very predictable and easily counterable, this isn't helped by Hatterene's abismal HP stat, which'll make it 2hko'd by most strong physical hits anyway.
A trick room on switchin makes Mega Hatterene into an amazing revenge killer, as well as a well needed tool for Trick Room teams.

Trick Room on switch-in has been tested in other pet mods before and has almost always been completely broken. For starters, why even bother running Hat as support now when it becomes the fastest Pokémon in the meta with this ability?

Edit: +Hat isn’t even bad rn it has more than enough bulk to set up TR once or twice

 

[Ehmcee]

A potential solve to this, which i'm unsure if it would be better, would be to change it to a Desolate Land-like Trick room, so only hatterene could benefit from it

 

[earl]

A potential solve to this, which i'm unsure if it would be better, would be to change it to a Desolate Land-like Trick room, so only hatterene could benefit from it

That thing would just decimate offensive teams then

 

[cringycoot]

A mon that I think deserves a buff right now is Mega Hatterene


Atk: -30
SpA: +15
Def: +15

Ability: Persistent -> Tricky Surge

Tricky Surge: Creates Trick Room on switchin (I'd propose 4 turns, so it would be reduced to 3 on a switchin).

The main problem with Mega Hatterene right now is that it has to setup Trick Room itself to benefit from Persistent, which makes it very predictable and easily counterable, this isn't helped by Hatterene's abismal HP stat, which'll make it 2hko'd by most strong physical hits anyway.
A trick room on switchin makes Mega Hatterene into an amazing revenge killer, as well as a well needed tool for Trick Room teams.

A potential solve to this, which i'm unsure if it would be better, would be to change it to a Desolate Land-like Trick room, so only hatterene could benefit from it

I really don't see the need to buff mega-hatt - it has an amazing special bulk, a great physical bulk, access to calm mind and draining kiss in order to sustain its bulk and has a legitimately scary Special attack. The use of Persistent as an ability is not only to set up for itself, but also to provide further utility for TR teams that appreciate the longer duration for trick room. Not only that, but it also was gifted gravity in the meta, in order to provide further utility and more ways to abuse Persistant.

Mega-hatt is a great support pokemon, and giving it a TR setting ability on the switch, or an exclusive TR setting in the style of Desolate land would not only make it overpowered, but ultimately centralizing and much more annoying to face.

Here are some example sets, showing how to use M-hatt as a support mon (In my opinion, at least :P) https://pokepast.es/de3a32e1170c5c93

 

[cringycoot]

If we are talking about megas that need buffs, we need to talk about Mega-inteleon.




So what exactly is holding our sniper-boy back? well, to start, we have to pay attention to his underwhelming breaking ability.
Even with his decent ability, inteleon is barely able to break reliably through many relevant walls, even some that he can hit super effectively.

Some calcs:
Note: all the differences between inteleon and mega-inteleon have been implemented in these calcs. The moves shown are the ones that deal the most damage.

Hide

252 SpA Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex on a critical hit: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 115-136 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 127-150 (36 - 42.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn on a critical hit: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

16 Atk Inteleon Cross Poison vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 148-176 (37.5 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 Atk Inteleon Cross Poison vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable on a critical hit: 224-264 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Inteleon: 224-266 (79.7 - 94.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

However, I do not believe the problem lies in his stats, but is rather in the move-pool it has access to - all the new moves he was given are physical moves with higher chances of critical hits. Even though his physical attack was drastically boosted, his special attack is much worth investing in. Which is why i think some of the new moves can be replaced with stuff like Psychic, Aura sphere or Sludge wave. In addition, an alternative, though less preferred idea is to lower its defenses to 75, and give 10 points to each of his attack, making him a "glass-cannon" breaker.

Another buff I think is worth considering is to increase the viability of Deep focus. While I'm aware it is currently coded wrong, as any damage towards him nullifies the effect, it would give some bulky Pokemon a chance to nullify the effect by simply hitting it. My idea is to make the effect last as long as he is above 50% of its hp, as well as to raise the critical chance back to +2 instead of +1. While it does take any damage into account, it does not punish Inteleon for tanking a hit or two, which is very likely against several mons. In addition, note that wish-healing allows it to restore the effect, and that toxic cripples M-inteleon for the long term.

Another possible buff is to change Mega-Inteleon's typing to Water/Dragon. After looking at the Viability rankings, it seems like being a dark type offers no utility other than having a harder time to break through mandibuzz and kommo-o. To be fair, I was influenced by Kingdra, which is a decent focus energy abuser that rather uses his typing to break through many relevant walls and to fit very easily on both rain teams and DSF cores. obviously, this means that Inteleon is gonna need a dragon STAB move (probably draco meteor unless it proves to be too powerful with Deep Focus), which will replace one of his new moves (probably night slash).

To be frank, Mega Inteleon does not need to receive all of the buffs features above. Rather, they should all be considered and decided whether they will actually make M-inteleon more viable or just Over-powering him.


Edit: added an idea after a short discussion in the showdown room.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Hello everyone! Before Megamax Open starts we got one last thing ready for y'all: A Viability Rankings! This was made using the current SWSH OU viability rankings as a base and voted on between me and several other Megamax contributors I handpicked for their achievements and know-how of the format whose individual votes and rationale have been document on this spreadsheet! Without further ado, here's the final result!

S Rank

Clefable

Coalossal-Mega

Magearna

Mandibuzz

Toxapex

A+ Rank

Centiskorch-Mega

Cinderace

Duraludon-Mega

Excadrill

Rillaboom

Rotom-Heat

Urshifu

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike-Mega

A Rank

Appletun-Mega

Blissey

Dragapult

Ferrothorn

Hippowdon

Hydreigon

Kommo-o

Sandaconda-Mega

Slowbro

Volcarona

A- Rank

Alakazam

Amoonguss

Corviknight

Drednaw-Mega

Zeraora

B+ Rank

Butterfree-Mega

Chansey

Charizard-Mega-Z

Flapple-Mega

Gastrodon

Kyurem

Marowak-Alola

Rhyperior

Skarmory

Tangrowth

Torkoal

Venusaur

B Rank

Aegislash

Azumarill

Blastoise-Mega-Z

Gengar

Grimmsnarl

Hatterene-Mega

Hawlucha

Jirachi

Magnezone

Mantine

Pikachu-Mega

Quagsire

Reuniclus

Terrakion

Togekiss

B- Rank

Bisharp

Charizard

Conkeldurr

Crawdaunt

Diggersby

Ditto

Grimmsnarl-Mega

Heracross

Keldeo

Kingdra

Kingler-Mega

Mew

Pelipper

Rotom-Wash

Scizor

Seismitoad

Slowking

C Rank

Araquanid

Barraskewda

Chandelure

Cloyster

Copperajah

Copperajah-Mega

Garbodor-Mega

Gyarados

Hatterene

Krookodile

Lapras-Mega

Lycanroc-Dusk

Mamoswine

Necrozma

Ninetales-Alola

Obstagoon

Pincurchin

Porygon2

Raichu-Alola

Salazzle

Sandaconda

Shuckle

Slowbro-Galar

Snorlax

Talonflame

Toxtricity

Tyranitar

Venusaur-Mega-Z

Weavile

Weezing-Galar

The Bad Ones

D Rank: Voted Unviable But Could Be Decent Actually

Alcremie

Snorlax

Blacklist: Totally Unviable Megas

Cinderace

Gengar X

Inteleon

Machamp

Orbeetle

Rillaboom

Toxtricity

Meme Tier: Totally Unviable Megas that due to their nature are probably not going to be buffed

Eevee

Meowth

This will be edited into the op. As the Open and the latter continue running feel free to drop nominations in this thread!

 

[earl]

for your viewing pleasure

Finally peaked ladder, gonna dump some thoughts on mons and how the meta has shifted in the wake of these changes:

set

Coalossal @ coalossalite
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spikes
- Earthquake
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp

We've got our new meta king, and he's actually a pretty welcome presence in my experience laddering. While Coalossal's Flare Blitzes are absolutely obnoxious for teams to switch into, Coal itself is not hard to pressure if you team has anything faster than it. He also provides a lot of welcome defensive utility for the user, so that's nice. At best he usually gets up 2 layers of spikes and then trades 1 for 1, but I also haven't run any slow teams with Coal-weak speed control lately so maybe he will be toxic down the line. As it stands, pex can choke on my spikes

set

Centiskorch @ centiskorchite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Strength Sap
- Coil
- Fire Lash
- Earthquake

Here's our other big winner in the balance changes. Centiskorch is significantly more worrying to me personally despite being undeniably worse than Coalossal simply due to how little defensive counterplay this guy has once he's set up. Lash+EQ is all Centi needs to pick apart cores while Sap+Coil makes it impossible to break for non-rock physical attackers if they can't OHKO. If it didn't have EQ at least Pex could beat it. Would make me feel a lot more comfortable about it. As it stands though it hasn't proved problematic, but keep an eye on it into the open imo.

set

Drednaw @ drednite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet
- Earthquake

Drednaw is so cool now. Nobody runs water absorbers (however I did run into Mantine twice lol) anymore so this guy just spams nuclear Flip Turns in the midgame while providing crucial speed control with Aqua Jet. You can create really cool semi-rain teams when using this guy, combining him with another offensive water and a grass or two to mildly abuse drizzle. It's also a great Coalossal countermeasure thanks to the 4x Fire resist and EQ.

set

Flapple @ flappnite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Grav Apple
- Dragon Hammer
- Earthquake

Incredible. I love this bastard. He's so easy to use! Just click Grav Apple when you force something out and then go from there! U-Turn always deals damage, speed is great, apples are delicious. Can't take hits for the life of it though

Some other thoughts on Pokemon that aren't giant:

Rocky Helmet Tang has been great for me. Punishes Drednaw and Rillaboom alongside a plethora of other physical threats

Boots Teleport is good because it gets rid of my responsibility to run special attacker checks. A lazy man's best friend

Steel Stealth Rock kind of sucks. Would be a whole lot cooler if they hit clef, but they don't, and are therefore rarely worth the hassle of running this garbage mon

Things are looking bright for the slug- It handles Coalossal incredibly well while also blocking Drednaw's Flip Turn. I expect to see a fair amount of them in the open if it turns into a Coal-Dred turf war (Dred gang here)

Every self-respecting pex should run toxic+haze because of the Fire megas

Still broken

ramblings

For how the meta is looking coming into the open, I expect to see a lot of balance or bulky offense in the open. Stall is very risky with the threat of running into Centiskorch (I may still try to build it though, Zard is mandated now) or Head Smash Coalossal paired with something like Freeze Dry Kyurem, while offensive teams are terrorized by all of the strong priority being thrown around and how fat the staple megas are. Full rain is a suicide play, but Sun should be quite successful given Venusaur's strong Drednaw matchup. Comically loses to Coalossal though.

I expect slower balance teams to be spamming fat grasses and/or mandibuzz because everyone is running Rillaboom. If you're facing G-Luke specifically, he will bring Head Smash Rillaboom and you should bring fat grasses over mandibuzz. Don't say I didn't warn you. WishPort Clef teams are still strong especially with fun mega recipients like Coalossal and Duraludon loving the heals. Blissey BO will be great because you don't have to waste a slot on AV Mage to deal with Duraludon or whatever and can therefore go ham on breakers. Future Sight Urshifu cores will still be toxic.

Best of luck in the Open

 

[War Incarnate]

Hello everyone! Before Megamax Open starts we got one last thing ready for y'all: A Viability Rankings! This was made using the current SWSH OU viability rankings as a base and voted on between me and several other Megamax contributors I handpicked for their achievements and know-how of the format whose individual votes and rationale have been document on this spreadsheet! Without further ado, here's the final result!

S Rank

Clefable

Coalossal-Mega

Magearna

Mandibuzz

Toxapex

A+ Rank

Centiskorch-Mega

Cinderace

Duraludon-Mega

Excadrill

Rillaboom

Rotom-Heat

Urshifu

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike-Mega

A Rank

Appletun-Mega

Blissey

Dragapult

Ferrothorn

Hippowdon

Hydreigon

Kommo-o

Sandaconda-Mega

Slowbro

Volcarona

A- Rank

Alakazam

Amoonguss

Corviknight

Drednaw-Mega

Zeraora

B+ Rank

Butterfree-Mega

Chansey

Charizard-Mega-Z

Flapple-Mega

Gastrodon

Kyurem

Marowak-Alola

Rhyperior

Skarmory

Tangrowth

Torkoal

Venusaur

B Rank

Aegislash

Azumarill

Blastoise-Mega-Z

Gengar

Grimmsnarl

Hatterene-Mega

Hawlucha

Jirachi

Magnezone

Mantine

Pikachu-Mega

Quagsire

Reuniclus

Terrakion

Togekiss

B- Rank

Bisharp

Charizard

Conkeldurr

Crawdaunt

Diggersby

Ditto

Grimmsnarl-Mega

Heracross

Keldeo

Kingdra

Kingler-Mega

Mew

Pelipper

Rotom-Wash

Scizor

Seismitoad

Slowking

C Rank

Araquanid

Barraskewda

Chandelure

Cloyster

Copperajah

Copperajah-Mega

Garbodor-Mega

Gyarados

Hatterene

Krookodile

Lapras-Mega

Lycanroc-Dusk

Mamoswine

Necrozma

Ninetales-Alola

Obstagoon

Pincurchin

Porygon2

Raichu-Alola

Salazzle

Sandaconda

Shuckle

Slowbro-Galar

Snorlax

Talonflame

Toxtricity

Tyranitar

Venusaur-Mega-Z

Weavile

Weezing-Galar

The Bad Ones

D Rank: Voted Unviable But Could Be Decent Actually

Alcremie

Snorlax

Blacklist: Totally Unviable Megas

Cinderace

Gengar X

Inteleon

Machamp

Orbeetle

Rillaboom

Toxtricity

Meme Tier: Totally Unviable Megas that due to their nature are probably not going to be buffed

Eevee

Meowth

This will be edited into the op. As the Open and the latter continue running feel free to drop nominations in this thread!

Where is Urushifu-SS-Mega and Flapple-Mega?

 

[earl]

Where is Urushifu-SS-Mega and Flapple-Mega?

Flapple is in B+, SS is ubers

 

[Tmi489]

just gonna put that i was basing mega cinder based on cinder w/o libero or HDB and too scared to make it broken
considering how good cinderace is in ou right now (even if bc of HDB), maybe cinder's mega could be retooled for ubers?

 

[G-Luke]

With the tour on the horizon and the newly updated rankings, I will be revamping the sample teams. All of them are from the Mega Blastoise era, and so much has changed and grown since. HMU with teams that you feel should be samples and why!

 

[cringycoot]

Hello everyone! Before Megamax Open starts we got one last thing ready for y'all: A Viability Rankings! This was made using the current SWSH OU viability rankings as a base and voted on between me and several other Megamax contributors I handpicked for their achievements and know-how of the format whose individual votes and rationale have been document on this spreadsheet! Without further ado, here's the final result!

S Rank

Clefable

Coalossal-Mega

Magearna

Mandibuzz

Toxapex

A+ Rank

Centiskorch-Mega

Cinderace

Duraludon-Mega

Excadrill

Rillaboom

Rotom-Heat

Urshifu

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike-Mega

A Rank

Appletun-Mega

Blissey

Dragapult

Ferrothorn

Hippowdon

Hydreigon

Kommo-o

Sandaconda-Mega

Slowbro

Volcarona

A- Rank

Alakazam

Amoonguss

Corviknight

Drednaw-Mega

Zeraora

B+ Rank

Butterfree-Mega

Chansey

Charizard-Mega-Z

Flapple-Mega

Gastrodon

Kyurem

Marowak-Alola

Rhyperior

Skarmory

Tangrowth

Torkoal

Venusaur

B Rank

Aegislash

Azumarill

Blastoise-Mega-Z

Gengar

Grimmsnarl

Hatterene-Mega

Hawlucha

Jirachi

Magnezone

Mantine

Pikachu-Mega

Quagsire

Reuniclus

Terrakion

Togekiss

B- Rank

Bisharp

Charizard

Conkeldurr

Crawdaunt

Diggersby

Ditto

Grimmsnarl-Mega

Heracross

Keldeo

Kingdra

Kingler-Mega

Mew

Pelipper

Rotom-Wash

Scizor

Seismitoad

Slowking

C Rank

Araquanid

Barraskewda

Chandelure

Cloyster

Copperajah

Copperajah-Mega

Garbodor-Mega

Gyarados

Hatterene

Krookodile

Lapras-Mega

Lycanroc-Dusk

Mamoswine

Necrozma

Ninetales-Alola

Obstagoon

Pincurchin

Porygon2

Raichu-Alola

Salazzle

Sandaconda

Shuckle

Slowbro-Galar

Snorlax

Talonflame

Toxtricity

Tyranitar

Venusaur-Mega-Z

Weavile

Weezing-Galar

The Bad Ones

D Rank: Voted Unviable But Could Be Decent Actually

Alcremie

Snorlax

Blacklist: Totally Unviable Megas

Cinderace

Gengar X

Inteleon

Machamp

Orbeetle

Rillaboom

Toxtricity

Meme Tier: Totally Unviable Megas that due to their nature are probably not going to be buffed

Eevee

Meowth

This will be edited into the op. As the Open and the latter continue running feel free to drop nominations in this thread!

After looking at the VR again, I'm very surprised to see Magnezone standing in the B tier:



Magnezone is perhaps one of the more underrated pokemon right now in the dynamax meta, despite how common and powerful the Mega colossal, centiscorch and drednaw are.

Magnezone is able to break the majority of walls in the meta, as well as to threaten the overly common steel types thanks to its trapping ability, in addition to choosing to run analytic to more aggressively punish whatever wants to switch in on it.

here are some calcs that show how intimidating Magnezone is currently:
(it's a long boi)

Hide

216+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 214-253 (58.7 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recover
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 40 SpD Magnezone: 122-144 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 40 SpD Magnezone: 50-59 (17.7 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mandibuzz: 392-464 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 332-392 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Duraludon: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Duraludon: 144-169 (51.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 452-534 (114.7 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Amoonguss: 234-276 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 146-174 (51.9 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 428-506 (107 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Appletun: 151-178 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Appletun: 195-231 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 309-364 (102.6 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Coalossal: 288-339 (67.9 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In addition to his breaking ability, magnezone has multiple ways of punishing or manipulating his ability to force out many walls by running toxic/thunder wave to cripple most of its switch ins.

Because of his pressuring ability,
Magnezone is a notable teammate with many pokemon that appreciate having toxapex or magearna out of the way, such as Kaldeo, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Flapple, etc

In conclusion, I believe magnezone should be higher on the Viability ranking: either on B+ or A- at least. Despite its loss of hidden power, it still does a good job threatening most of the steel, water and Fairy types in the meta.

 

[G-Luke]

After looking at the VR again, I'm very surprised to see Magnezone standing in the B tier:



Magnezone is perhaps one of the more underrated pokemon right now in the dynamax meta, despite how common and powerful the Mega colossal, centiscorch and drednaw are.

Magnezone is able to break the majority of walls in the meta, as well as to threaten the overly common steel types thanks to its trapping ability, in addition to choosing to run analytic to more aggressively punish whatever wants to switch in on it.

here are some calcs that show how intimidating Magnezone is currently:
(it's a long boi)

Hide

216+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 214-253 (58.7 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recover
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 40 SpD Magnezone: 122-144 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 40 SpD Magnezone: 50-59 (17.7 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mandibuzz: 392-464 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 332-392 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Duraludon: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Duraludon: 144-169 (51.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 452-534 (114.7 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Amoonguss: 234-276 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 146-174 (51.9 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 428-506 (107 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Appletun: 151-178 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Appletun: 195-231 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 309-364 (102.6 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Coalossal: 288-339 (67.9 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In addition to his breaking ability, magnezone has multiple ways of punishing or manipulating his ability to force out many walls by running toxic/thunder wave to cripple most of its switch ins.

Because of his pressuring ability,
Magnezone is a notable teammate with many pokemon that appreciate having toxapex or magearna out of the way, such as Kaldeo, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Flapple, etc

In conclusion, I believe magnezone should be higher on the Viability ranking: either on B+ or A- at least. Despite its loss of hidden power, it still does a good job threatening most of the steel, water and Fairy types in the meta.

I think Magnezone is fine where it is. Its trapping capabilities are not as highly favoured in Megamax as it is in OU, and several prominent threats that do not exist in OU are in Megamax and give Magnezone a pretty hard time (Mega Coalossal, Mega Sandaconda, Mega Appletun). Its prediction reliant and several top tier threats take advantage of it if it locks into the wrong move.

 

[Yung Dramps]

With the tour going on I've gotten a lot of inquiries about Urshifu being super strong, perhaps too strong. There's also the matter of the ongoing OU suspect of Magearna which very likely will end in a ban and whether we'll follow in their footsteps when the time comes. Finally there's the matter of any other threats that could come about after one or more of these mons are banned or even threats that some may feel are overbearing right now. For all these reasons I've created a poll where you can also give your thoughts on these questions! I would highly recommend answering these questions and even discussing them on this thread.

 

[zedhatool]

After the tournament this will be more relevant, but I've been playing a lot of OU recently, and I feel that Magearna is an entirely different presence here than there. There are many more reliable checks to Magearna in this tier, notably the broken fire-type Megamaxes, and all-in-all I believe it to be a balanced and healthy part of the Megamax metagame. I don't personally believe that Urshifu-Single-Strike is broken in any tier. I know I hyped it up in earlier posts but after playing with it, it's a fine breaker, not too overwhelming.
I don't believe that the Metagame really needs much right now. I think that we've done a good job of creating a balanced tier, and there isn't much that feels overpowering.

 

[Ehmcee]

After the tournament this will be more relevant, but I've been playing a lot of OU recently, and I feel that Magearna is an entirely different presence here than there. There are many more reliable checks to Magearna in this tier, notably the broken fire-type Megamaxes, and all-in-all I believe it to be a balanced and healthy part of the Megamax metagame. I don't personally believe that Urshifu-Single-Strike is broken in any tier. I know I hyped it up in earlier posts but after playing with it, it's a fine breaker, not too overwhelming.
I don't believe that the Metagame really needs much right now. I think that we've done a good job of creating a balanced tier, and there isn't much that feels overpowering.

I agree that Megamax is fundamentaly a different metagame then OU, but here's where i personally think megamax needs to stick to an idealogy and not make exceptions for a select few mons.
Megamax is currently based off of regular OU, which means that we currently have the same bans that are implemented in megamax as in OU.

I believe we have a few options going forward

1. Adopt and stick OU's Banlist
This is what megamax is currently doing, the current OU bans that are applied here are ones from suspects such as Dynamax, Arena Trap, Melmetal, Dracovish and very likely magearna soon, this also includes quickbans that do not include legendaries, such as Galarian Darm and Marshadow. If we do this, this would also mean that we adopt all future ban decisions in the metagame.
My problem with this is in a future potential ban concerning Cinderace, a cinderace ban would effectively make one of the mega suggestions unable to be played, unless it were to be played in Megamax Ubers, (which wasn't intended by the submitter).

2. Letting a council/public retest old mons, as well as holding their own votes in accordance to OU bans, as well as suspecting other mons they find problematic.
This is what I personally believe is the way to go, mons have a very different impact in a more powerful tier like megamax, I'm not saying that all the OU bans should be reversed, I'm saying that this should be applied as a general policy to determining future bans.

There are definitely more complicated options, such as keeping OU's current banlist, but testing/voting on future ones, but I personally believe these two are the main ones that should be looked at.