Mega Punch

[Objection]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused.​

Mega Punch is kind of an underwhelming move. Average BAP, less than 100% accurate, a poor attacking type and nothing that makes it special.

Here's Mega Punch as it currently stands:

Mega Punch: The Pokémon’s fist becomes surrounded by a white glow, and it punches the opponent with great force.

Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 85% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring

So, how (if at all) should we go about improving this move?

-----------------------------

Well, akela had one idea in the feedback thread:
[box]Mega Punch: The Pokémon’s fist becomes surrounded by a white glow, and it punches the opponent with great force. If combined with a different "Punch" attack (attacks that receive a boost from Iron Fist), the combined attack gets a Guaranteed Critical Hit and its Effect Chance Doubles (2.0x).

Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 85% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring[/box]
Is this the best way to improve the move, or is there a better way we could improve it? Does it even need improving? On your marks, get set, discuss!

 

[Gerard]

TBH I thing the move might be better improved by the regular "increases the damage of the second move x1.5" since this would give most punching moves combos 20 BP (8 + 8 x 1.5) I'm not worried about Hitmonchan as having to use a combo is never a great strategy (as it stands akelas' suggestion is close at 16 BP + Crit but I think 1 extra BP and a potential Crit (or assured one if Focus Energy) are better than 10% change of status)

 

[deadfox081]

I honestly think we are going a little over the top in boosting every single move here. The elemental punches do not need a boost, they already have plenty of moves to combo with and an Elemental combo typing to maintain their type most of the time. Once again Mega Punch is a suboptimal move just because it was designed that way.

 

[Objection]

I honestly think we are going a little over the top in boosting every single move here. The elemental punches do not need a boost, they already have plenty of moves to combo with and an Elemental combo typing to maintain their type most of the time. Once again Mega Punch is a suboptimal move just because it was designed that way.

I can't speak for other council members, but the argument that something is meant to suck does not fly with me. Firstly, we gave a (small) improvement to Splash, the epitome of "meant to suck". Secondly, if there is no reason to use a particular thing, then that thing is broken (not in the too powerful sense) and needs some sort of fix. Even the change to Splash gave it a use.

 

[Yarnus of Bethany]

Deadfox is right that the elemental punches do not need a boost; however, Mega Punch is not an elemental punch and does need a boost. Here's my proposal:

Mega Punch: The Pokemon's fist becomes surrounded by a white glow, and it punches the opponent with great force. Due to the distance the opponent is knocked, its next contact attack is rated as if it had two (2) less Base Power. If the opponent has not used a contact attack by the end of the round, the effect disappears.

It's flavorful, not entirely useless, and not overpowered. I think those are the main criteria for changes.

 

[deadfox081]

IMO Mega Punch already has a niche anyway. It has a Deffering CT so Iron Fist mons can combo it with many suitable moves to attain a +10 BAP boost for relatively little energy while still retaining the original moves type.

 

[zarator]

Couldn't, you know, just lower the energy cost to 5?

 

[akela]

IMO Mega Punch already has a niche anyway. It has a Deffering CT so Iron Fist mons can combo it with many suitable moves to attain a +10 BAP boost for relatively little energy while still retaining the original moves type.

Why wouldn't they just Combo Fire Punch with Fire Punch? Or Fire Punch with Ice Punch?

They achieve the same result but with better accuracy and a little more EN use.

 

[Ragnarokalex]

Ice Punch+Ice Punch is 28 Energy while Mega Punch + Ice Punch is just 18, 10 energy is no amount to scoff at for a 2 point BAP Increase, it still remains plenty useful for comboing purpose with the other elem punches. I personally think its fine, but if we really wanted to change the move some we should go the route of Zarators idea, and just lower the energy cost to further buff its current niche.

 

[Objection]

IMO Mega Punch already has a niche anyway. It has a Deffering CT so Iron Fist mons can combo it with many suitable moves to attain a +10 BAP boost for relatively little energy while still retaining the original moves type.

Pound does this too y'know. It provides at least the same BAP boost to any punching move of 8 BAP or more, it has a Deferring CT and it's more accurate and cheaper (Pound is 3 energy). If Mega Punch is to be buffed to be a useful punching combo move, it needs an advantage over Pound. If not, then it needs a non-combo-related advantage over other 8 BAP attacks.

 

[Deck Knight]

One fix I've thought of for Mega Punch is the doubling of the Iron Fist boost so for example Mega Punch + Ice Punch has 20 BAP (compare Pound + Ice Punch which has 18 after IF). If we combine that with a doubling of the effect chance then I think you get a decent spread of options.

Pound + Ice Punch: 16 BAP (18 IF) 10% Freeze, 14 EN, 100 Acc
Mega Punch + Ice Punch: 16 BAP (20 IF), 20% Freeze, 18 EN, 92.5 Acc
Ice Punch + Ice Punch: 18 BAP (20 IF), 20% Freeze, 28 EN, 100 Acc

This also makes Mega Punch highly useful with Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, giving them a total of 14 BAP on Iron Fist mons.

The attack would read like this:

Mega Punch: The Pokémon’s fist becomes surrounded by a white glow, and it punches the opponent with great force. Mega Punch doubles the BAP boost of Iron Fist when used by itself or in a combination. If combined with a different "Punch" attack (attacks boosted by Iron Fist) the combination's Effect Chance Doubles (2.0x).

Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 85% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring

The long and short of it: Mega Punch has 12 BAP for Iron Fist mons, and combines well with other punches, exchanging accuracy for improved effect chances. It also removes the disadvantage Iron Fist mons face with other punching combinations by doubling the IF Boost, so Mega Punch + Fire Punch actually is better in some situations than Fire Punch twice (assuming nonSTAB). This is most notable in non-IF Pokemon on Clefable for giving it a 40% chance of an attack raise on Meteor Mash, and various Normal-types/Ledian for giving it a 40% Confusion chance on Dizzy Punch. Hitmonchan and Golurk of course have almost all the punching moves, and Ledian and Infernape both appreciate the power boost.

 

[Stratos]

TBH I thing the move might be better improved by the regular "increases the damage of the second move x1.5" since this would give most punching moves combos 20 BP (8 + 8 x 1.5) I'm not worried about Hitmonchan as having to use a combo is never a great strategy (as it stands akelas' suggestion is close at 16 BP + Crit but I think 1 extra BP and a potential Crit (or assured one if Focus Energy) are better than 10% change of status)

we're absolutely not doing this because then a week down the road someone will go 'we have to buff pound, it's super outclassed'

Ice Punch+Ice Punch is 28 Energy while Mega Punch + Ice Punch is just 18, 10 energy is no amount to scoff at for a 2 point BAP Increase, it still remains plenty useful for comboing purpose with the other elem punches. I personally think its fine, but if we really wanted to change the move some we should go the route of Zarators idea, and just lower the energy cost to further buff its current niche.

bingo, my thoughts exactly

 

[Objection]

we're absolutely not doing this because then a week down the road someone will go 'we have to buff pound, it's super outclassed'

Unless we make Mega Punch have 100% accuracy (by itself or in a combo), Pound ain't gonna be super outclassed.

 

[ZhengTann]

Back to Mega Punch - I think Deck might be in a better direction than zar. An 8 BAP move costing 6 EN is quite the rule of thumb, so we probably shouldn't just make Mega Punch an exception out of the blue. That said, Deck's proposal would get my full support if he removed the "Double Iron Fist boost" part. Without it, here's what the comparison would look like:

Pound + Ice Punch: 16 BAP (18 IF) 10% Freeze, 13.5 EN, 100 Acc
Mega Punch + Ice Punch: 16 BAP (18 IF), 20% Freeze, 18 EN, 92.5 Acc
Ice Punch + Ice Punch: 18 BAP (20 IF), 20% Freeze, 28 EN, 100 Acc

Pound + Meteor Mash: 19 BAP (21 IF) 20% +1 Atk, 15 EN, 100 Acc
Mega Punch + Meteor Mash: 18 BAP (20 IF), 40% +1 Atk, 19.5 EN, 85 Acc
Meteor Mash + Meteor Mash: 22.5 BAP (24.5 IF), 40% +1 Atk, 31.5 EN, 72.25 Acc

With Elemental Punches, trading Pound's 4 less EN cost for double effect chance is pretty decent, IMO. 92.5% accuracy is no slouch in itself, when you consider the possibility that your opponent could be running -Speed, or your MegaPuncher could be running +Speed. Even with neutral natures, 92.5% is pretty high enough that a miss isn't the foremost issue on your mind.

While with Meteor Mash (a specific case because Deck happened to brought it up), you'd be trading Pound's +1 BAP, -4.5 EN for a 20% increase effect chances. Again, the accuracy isn't that pressing an issue, but if you really want to be nitpicky, Pound is the better way to go.

So to sum it up, without "Double Iron Fist" boost, Mega Punch essentially serves a slightly different niche compared to Pound in combo-teching punching moves. Mega Punch boosts the secondary effect chance, Pound boosts the BAP, and we have options to suit whatever needs we'd want. Savvy?

 

[Its_A_Random]

Back to Mega Punch - I think Deck might be in a better direction than zar. An 8 BAP move costing 6 EN is quite the rule of thumb, so we probably shouldn't just make Mega Punch an exception out of the blue.

Giga Drain. Drain Punch. Horn Leech. Anything else that has a different EC to moves of their BAP. In other words, saying to not lower the EC of a move because of standard formulae is not going to convince me to keep the EC the same, especially given Quick Attack costs one less energy to execute than all other 4 BAP priority moves (The precedence exists).

That said, Mega Punch does not really need a buff at all. It is fine as a cheap combination tech for elemental punches to create combinations that, while are less powerful than combining a punch attack with itself, is vastly more efficient, & will pretty much retain the typing of the other move anywyay, since CT: Deferring. Also, Pound is Pound. only a small amount of Pokémon get Mega Punch & Pound anyway, so... If it needed a buff...

Couldn't, you know, just lower the energy cost to 5?

... Is the best solution by far.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Double Posting/Putting this thread on a 24 hour timer. If nothing else happens, slate will likely be:
[BOX]What should we do to Mega Punch?
Retain the current Mega Punch
Reduce Mega Punch's Energy Cost to 5
Adopt akela's proposed Mega Punch
Adopt Yarnus of Bethany's proposed Mega Punch
Adopt Deck Knight's proposed Mega Punch[/BOX]
If anyone has anything to add, please speak now.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Discussionus endus!

Yeah, this with Withdraw will prolly be the last things that could be buffed by council, but... Yeah. Slate was in the last post, expect voting thread shortly.