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Mareanie, Toxapex Discussion
- Thread starter Nexus
- Start date
Ya. I think kakimori is right on the 4MSS of Toxapex.
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How wrong i am for having an opinion that goes against the norm, my apologies jack.
Toxapex is not supposed to be an offensive presence no, but what I am saying is that its lack of one prevents it from beating the pokemon that everyone claims it can beat. I would also like to ask you why what you have said here "Toxapex is meant to be a sponge w/ regenerator that can dish out status with toxic and cripple attackers with scald" is any different from a number of pokemon we have already, namely, alomomola that I have mentioned previously. Does alomomola not do exactly this? And is alomomola not in ru? I predicted that this pokemon would go a similar way to alomomola, and i'm glad that I am clearly not the only one who thinks this, so thanks for backing me up jack.
Burn damage being nerfed may neuter ONE of my arguments somewhat yes, but having its black sludge recovery taken away still holds back toxapex in its ability to 'recover stall' the pokemon it supposedly beats as some have put it.
But this knowledge that burn has been nerfed also brings up another question in my mind. What if toxapex burns something on the switch in, that has leftovers recovery, in this example, lets say a manaphy? Now toxapex is unable to put out damage, and may or may not have been able to 1v1 this manaphy had it been able to get a toxic off, but now that it has burned said manaphy, it can no longer beat it. For this reason running both scald and toxic on the same set could be counter intuitive as toxapex will be unable to beat certain threats if it status' them accidentally. This is something interesting to note when using toxapex and could hold it back pretty significantly due to its lack of damage output outside of status, and overlapping status on a pokemon such as this is a very dangerous thing to do for the reason I have said above.
I apologise that having a different opinion to the majority of people in this thread is ignorant of me, and making judgements on the way I play pokemon definitely makes my points less valid I agree. My pointing out of a misleading set of calcs that put toxapex in the favouring position vs the pokemon it supposedly counters is certainly more valid than what i'm bringing up.
Toxapex's defensive typing is arguably better than Alomomola's, not because of its weaknesses but because of its resistances, and most importantly because it's immune to Toxic bar Salazzle.
Last thing I say in this thread.
Your made-up scenario with manaphy is flawed. Toxapex still wins with haze + recover, and manaphy slowly dies. So thats that. Have a good day :)
I like the tactic of ignoring everything brought up except the 1 thing you can salvage a response to.
My scenario is in fact not flawed because of the burn nerf you taught me about. For manaphy to slowly die, that would mean toxapex not using haze for 1 turn, meaning it runs the risk of being hit with a + 3 attack in the following turn, as burn damage will be doing a net 0% to manaphy.
Many people outright refusing to reply to this thread anymore after reviewing my arguements? Interesting to say the least.
You too, jack.
I definitely see your point here, and agree to some extent, but I would like to reiterate my argument that resistances dont come into play unless you can actually beat the pokemon that you are supposed to, which toxapex undoubtedly struggles, or will struggle with doing, much like alo does. A toxic immunity is a fair point and may be a reason to use it over alomomola for sure, but alo finds use in its ability to wish pass, and this may be a reason to use that over toxapex. We'll wait and see.
SPONGE + RECOVER + REGENERATOR
FIVE TEAMMATES
FIVE TEAMMATES
To be fair on Hallows he isn't completely wrong on Toxapex's lack of offense creating some problems with it.
On one hand for completely stopping things such as Choice Specs Keldeo and Choice Band Azumarill this mon fairs well. Very well, in fact:
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 72-84 (23.7 - 27.7%) -- 84.6% chance to 4HKO
That's without Stealth Rock I admit, but that is quite impressive.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Toxapex: 99-117 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
And that's with no investment in SpD. Again, certainly not the worst.
But it is true, on the other hand, Toxapex without Merciless is very underwhelming to strike back.
0 Atk Toxapex Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 66-78 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 Atk Toxapex Poison Jab vs. 196 HP / 20 Def Azumarill: 140-168 (35.8 - 43%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Now I know how tanks work (it's what I use a lot), and I won't lie and say this thing defensively is very damn good, but it is still pretty flawed in some of the things it can tackle against "effectively". And, as an added bonus:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 273-322 (90 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So I mean it isn't exactly 100% counter to Azumarill among other things.
I won't say anything bad or great about it in here otherwise, but I'll say that it definitely is a mon with flaws - but to be fair Haze and massive recovery help make up for it to a point. I mean if we want to talk about mons with no offensive momentum look no further than my main man Quagsire. A great mon with Unaware, but offensively pitiful otherwise.
On one hand for completely stopping things such as Choice Specs Keldeo and Choice Band Azumarill this mon fairs well. Very well, in fact:
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 72-84 (23.7 - 27.7%) -- 84.6% chance to 4HKO
That's without Stealth Rock I admit, but that is quite impressive.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Toxapex: 99-117 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
And that's with no investment in SpD. Again, certainly not the worst.
But it is true, on the other hand, Toxapex without Merciless is very underwhelming to strike back.
0 Atk Toxapex Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 66-78 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 Atk Toxapex Poison Jab vs. 196 HP / 20 Def Azumarill: 140-168 (35.8 - 43%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Now I know how tanks work (it's what I use a lot), and I won't lie and say this thing defensively is very damn good, but it is still pretty flawed in some of the things it can tackle against "effectively". And, as an added bonus:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 273-322 (90 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So I mean it isn't exactly 100% counter to Azumarill among other things.
I won't say anything bad or great about it in here otherwise, but I'll say that it definitely is a mon with flaws - but to be fair Haze and massive recovery help make up for it to a point. I mean if we want to talk about mons with no offensive momentum look no further than my main man Quagsire. A great mon with Unaware, but offensively pitiful otherwise.
The issue I see with toxapex over a pokemon like quagsire is the fact that quagsire is a dedicated check to a handful of pokemon, for example zard x and bisharp. To these pokemon it can actually reliably do damage back and comfortably beat them 1v1
When applying similar logic to toxapex, it cant really reliably beat any pokemon it is assigned to check, due to its complete lack of any damaging moves outside of status.
I think it will be interesting to watch how it develops.
I thank you for your non toxic response btw.
Jeez, why are you so determined to prove that Toxapex sucks? I couldn't care about it one way or another, but it's getting really annoying seeing this thread constantly bumped up to the top of the forum just because you're complaining all the time that people don't agree with you.
If it really is that bad, there will be no way to know it until the games release and the meta can be tested. This thread is for people to speculate and try to design sets that they think will work. Stop pooping on them just because you don't like Toxapex. I don't like it that much either, but you're just being obnoxious.
Sorry Man but I just don't get how you can base Toxapex 's viability on that Manaphy exemple , it' s just BS. At least thats how you sound. It's like If you want Toxy to just beat just about anything . It's just not possible...
While the base HP is disappointing, it does have overall higher bulk than Mega Sableye (who has the same HP) and has an awesome defensive typing. Water/Poison has always been great with key resistances like Fire, Ice, Fighting and Fairy, then you throw in Recover and Regenerator and you have yourself an extremely solid defensive Pokemon, who can support its team with T-Spikes and Scald and can fit into cores with Ferrothorn for example, truly creating a tough to break core. While Merciless is cool flavor-wise I don't like it on this mon due to its poor offensive presence. Regenerator all the way for me, but hey who knows. No one should be sleeping on this thing which seems to be the most defensively focused 7th gen Pokemon
Manaphy was merely an example of the dangers of overlapping status on toxapex, look at it in a general sense rather than just specifically on manaphy.
What you are doing is not discussion of potential sets for Toxapex. You are not theorizing ways to use Toxapex or what it might be good at. You are just attacking anyone who says it is good and trying to prove that it's worthless. That's a viable opinion and you could be right, but it's not contributing to discussion or fostering any kind of competitive analysis on this new Pokemon.
I don't get why haze is a must. I can see haze being useful of the regenerator sets, but if you are running a more offensive set you would go well with this
Merciless, Black sludge, Modest/Defense/Spec Defense boosting nature
Surf
Venoshock
Baneful Bunker
Recover
If you have someone else with toxic on the team this is even better. Here are a few stats I did with a modest nature and 252 HP, 48 Defense, 80 SpA, 128 SpD (not the best but just wanted hp HP and equal Def and SpD, at 304 HP and 352 defenses.)
80+ SpA Tentacruel Surf vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon on a critical hit: 252-296 (60 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage (he can 2HKO you back thanks to Sandstorm but still)
80+ SpA Tentacruel Venoshock (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine on a critical hit: 108-127 (32.3 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage
80+ SpA Tentacruel Venoshock (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew on a critical hit: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage
80+ SpA Tentacruel Venoshock (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth on a critical hit: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after poison damage
That is quite a bit of damage while still being very tanky. You could also run a bold nature and have 128 in SpA for the same amount of SpA but a lot more physical defense
Merciless, Black sludge, Modest/Defense/Spec Defense boosting nature
Surf
Venoshock
Baneful Bunker
Recover
If you have someone else with toxic on the team this is even better. Here are a few stats I did with a modest nature and 252 HP, 48 Defense, 80 SpA, 128 SpD (not the best but just wanted hp HP and equal Def and SpD, at 304 HP and 352 defenses.)
80+ SpA Tentacruel Surf vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon on a critical hit: 252-296 (60 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage (he can 2HKO you back thanks to Sandstorm but still)
80+ SpA Tentacruel Venoshock (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine on a critical hit: 108-127 (32.3 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage
80+ SpA Tentacruel Venoshock (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew on a critical hit: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage
80+ SpA Tentacruel Venoshock (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth on a critical hit: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after poison damage
That is quite a bit of damage while still being very tanky. You could also run a bold nature and have 128 in SpA for the same amount of SpA but a lot more physical defense
IMO Switching into Mareanie could be a terrifying prospect in Little Cup. Merciless Venoshock would actually hurt things really hard there, as with the lower BSTs of the tier, its offensive stats are not garbage.
Toxapex's seeming inability to do any damage is definitely a conversation we should be having right now. Ignore the angle Hollow is going with about being good or bad (we won't know for sure until the meta develops), let's just address the problem. The fear here is that Toxapex can't threaten the pokemon he checks. He switches into Keldeo, takes a hit, but now what? Is the plan to Toxic stall? If that's the case, he's gonna need to devote a slot to recover, regeneration or not. What if Keldeo is substitute calm mind? You're complete forked if so.
These things are worth considering. Who can Toxapex come in on, and how can he force them out?
These things are worth considering. Who can Toxapex come in on, and how can he force them out?
Haze is a must precisely because Toxapex is set-up bait otherwise. If Keldeo is SubCM, Toxapex can eventually PP stall it with Haze. It will be a long, godawful, arduous process, but it can.
I don't believe Merciless sets will run Modest. Its SpA is just too low for that to be numerically effective. Better to boost Def or SpDef. More bang for your buck regardless of how you invest the EVs.
On the other hand, people saying Merciless isn't worth it because offenses are too low are flat out wrong. Venoshock with Merciless is the equivalent of a 130 BP attack (195 after STAB) off a 106 SpA stat. It will 2HKO a lot of things after poison/SR and Toxapex doesn't have to give up any bulk for it. Plus it cuts through boosted defenses due to crit, so Merciless Toxapex doesn't require Haze.
I don't believe Merciless sets will run Modest. Its SpA is just too low for that to be numerically effective. Better to boost Def or SpDef. More bang for your buck regardless of how you invest the EVs.
On the other hand, people saying Merciless isn't worth it because offenses are too low are flat out wrong. Venoshock with Merciless is the equivalent of a 130 BP attack (195 after STAB) off a 106 SpA stat. It will 2HKO a lot of things after poison/SR and Toxapex doesn't have to give up any bulk for it. Plus it cuts through boosted defenses due to crit, so Merciless Toxapex doesn't require Haze.
I can see your argument for set up bait, though if you have other pokemon to assist with that it helps.
Yeah probably best to run bold with it. With bold and no Defense IVs you still have 370 defense. then you can split it between SpD and SpA so your criting surfs and venoshocks hit pretty hard.
Yeah people I think are underestimating merciless. Crits ignore defense boosts, so walling pokemon are no threat, and that venoshock does some massive damage.
The solution, ultimately, is probably running a set close to this:
- Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb / Venoshock
- Scald / Haze
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
Haze is probably the safer end of moves if only because you could keep CM Keldeo from going too far. There are a couple issues still with this set, though:
- Poison Jab is physical, which means that Scald burns still cripple it badly. Sludge Bomb leaves it even more vulnerable to CM Keldeo.
- Venoshock is an idea because critical hits ignore Special Defense boosts (if going for Merciless) and the 130 base power if the opponent is Poisoned means it will do something, but you have to at least guarantee one level of poison on the Keldeo and it still can continuously Calm Mind up.
- It's still a bulky Water-type, so Scald is always solid to have.
- Haze, IMO, feels like a move that is -okay- but it isn't anything to write home about either. After re-consideration you're probably going to use it on all Regen sets.
Its special move is kind of hard to consider because it doesn't really guarantee Poison, and Toxic Spikes still can be absorbed by Poison-types (probably the only noteworthy Gengar buff this generation). Toxic is still very worthwhile over Toxic Spikes too. You could also go for Sludge Bomb or Sludge Wave for more consistency in damage for what it's worth.
After seeing the damage behind its attacks there likely will be a situation where Toxapex will drop in tiers a bit. It might still remain within OU boundaries for a while, and I won't lie that it DOES have some interesting perks over Tentacruel and Alomamola; however, it still can get overrun by some of the more problematic sets (SubCM Keldeo if it lacks Haze, Belly Drum Azumarill with Knock Off). It's definitely more suited to being a "Wall" than a "Tank" because tanks usually can swing back for some damage. This thing, however, lacking Merciless cannot. Still, I don't think it'll be a mon that will be bad against some lower threats over time. It just really needed some movepool diversity or a little extra SpA or Attack to go with it IMO.
It would not completely surprise me to see this on stall, though, if only because it has the perk of setting up Toxic Spikes, absorbing said Toxic Spikes, and having 1 or 2 methods to Recover its health as well. It has an incredible niche carved within it and other mons can support with it perfectly (Ferrothorn is a great example for this).
- Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb / Venoshock
- Scald / Haze
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
Haze is probably the safer end of moves if only because you could keep CM Keldeo from going too far. There are a couple issues still with this set, though:
- Poison Jab is physical, which means that Scald burns still cripple it badly. Sludge Bomb leaves it even more vulnerable to CM Keldeo.
- Venoshock is an idea because critical hits ignore Special Defense boosts (if going for Merciless) and the 130 base power if the opponent is Poisoned means it will do something, but you have to at least guarantee one level of poison on the Keldeo and it still can continuously Calm Mind up.
- It's still a bulky Water-type, so Scald is always solid to have.
- Haze, IMO, feels like a move that is -okay- but it isn't anything to write home about either. After re-consideration you're probably going to use it on all Regen sets.
Its special move is kind of hard to consider because it doesn't really guarantee Poison, and Toxic Spikes still can be absorbed by Poison-types (probably the only noteworthy Gengar buff this generation). Toxic is still very worthwhile over Toxic Spikes too. You could also go for Sludge Bomb or Sludge Wave for more consistency in damage for what it's worth.
After seeing the damage behind its attacks there likely will be a situation where Toxapex will drop in tiers a bit. It might still remain within OU boundaries for a while, and I won't lie that it DOES have some interesting perks over Tentacruel and Alomamola; however, it still can get overrun by some of the more problematic sets (SubCM Keldeo if it lacks Haze, Belly Drum Azumarill with Knock Off). It's definitely more suited to being a "Wall" than a "Tank" because tanks usually can swing back for some damage. This thing, however, lacking Merciless cannot. Still, I don't think it'll be a mon that will be bad against some lower threats over time. It just really needed some movepool diversity or a little extra SpA or Attack to go with it IMO.
It would not completely surprise me to see this on stall, though, if only because it has the perk of setting up Toxic Spikes, absorbing said Toxic Spikes, and having 1 or 2 methods to Recover its health as well. It has an incredible niche carved within it and other mons can support with it perfectly (Ferrothorn is a great example for this).
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Needs max HP investment for sure.
Regenerator will be the better set, but I have a feeling we'll all get wrecked by a Merciless Toxapex on the ladder at least once.
Edit: Please...don't talk about Gengar "buffs"...oh, my heart...
Also, boosted Venoshock has 130 BP, not 110.
Also, there's no point in worrying about CM Keldeo while simultaneously saying you don't think Haze is worth it...it's literally the answer to all such shenanigans.
Regenerator will be the better set, but I have a feeling we'll all get wrecked by a Merciless Toxapex on the ladder at least once.
Edit: Please...don't talk about Gengar "buffs"...oh, my heart...
Also, boosted Venoshock has 130 BP, not 110.
Also, there's no point in worrying about CM Keldeo while simultaneously saying you don't think Haze is worth it...it's literally the answer to all such shenanigans.
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It's a shame to lose Levitate, but it does gain access to Terrains (Psychic Terrain + Gengar = <3) and it still brings another mon to rid the Toxic Spike
Corrected.
It is, but at the same time isn't really an efficient answer to it.
At the very best you presume a "stalemate" against CM Keldeo with Haze and force it out. It's like the crappy variation of Suicune vs Vaporeon in earlier gens. It works, but it's not an ideal situation outside of "no other choice" shenanigans.
By the way, I did a couple stray Venoshock calcs assuming that the target is poisoned and you are using Merciless. It does give enough of a bite to scare off Keldeo and prevent it from going too ham in Calm Minds:
0 SpA Toxapex (Venoshock) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo on a critical hit: 138-163 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It also can roll over Azumarill:
0 SpA Toxapex (Venoshock) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill on a critical hit: 306-362 (79.6 - 94.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'd agree that Regenerator with Haze is almost likely a must. Merciless can get away without it SO LONG as some form of Poison is placed on the prime targets - likely via Toxic Spikes if possible. The latter is a bit harder to assume.
Hey guys, been a lurker for a while and am pretty familiar with competitive, but I have a question with these calcs involving Merciless.
Are we considering the fact that the opponent will be racking up poison damage with these 130 BP Venoshock 2HKO and 3HKOs? Because that seems pretty important. Assuming that the foe is regularly poisoned, it will have racked an extra 12.5% damage before the opportunity to 2HKO (6.25% if they have lefties) and racked an extra 25% before the opportunity to 3HKO (12.5% if they have lefties.) Seems pretty significant, especially when accounting for a 3HKO. Granted, it's not quite the same as extra damage to the opponent because they could have an opportunity to attack before fainting from poison, but the 25% tacked on after 2 hits seems pretty significant.
Of course, this would be a little different assuming the foe is badly poisoned, but it's still something to consider.
Are we considering the fact that the opponent will be racking up poison damage with these 130 BP Venoshock 2HKO and 3HKOs? Because that seems pretty important. Assuming that the foe is regularly poisoned, it will have racked an extra 12.5% damage before the opportunity to 2HKO (6.25% if they have lefties) and racked an extra 25% before the opportunity to 3HKO (12.5% if they have lefties.) Seems pretty significant, especially when accounting for a 3HKO. Granted, it's not quite the same as extra damage to the opponent because they could have an opportunity to attack before fainting from poison, but the 25% tacked on after 2 hits seems pretty significant.
Of course, this would be a little different assuming the foe is badly poisoned, but it's still something to consider.