Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
I approve the lead set and only the lead set. I think this lead set is incredibly annoying and definitely has perks over Hariyama. It a) has 50% chance of stopping set up from various Pokemon, b) has the ability to run Focus Sash and Protect to fair better against other Pokemon such as Ambipom.
Seeing as though this is now in QC, I'd like to make a good post outlining some positives, negatives, and opinions as to why each set should stay (if any). Kind of like an original skeleton post, but for easy reference on the 2nd page.
Lead Machoke
Positives: - Currently beats or is successful against the following leads: Ambipom, Moltres (moveset choice), Alakazam (moveset choice), Cloyster, Omastar, Kabutops, Rhyperior, Regirock, Hariyama, Hippopotas, Electrode, Snover, Qwilfish (iffy, but Machoke has the advantage), and Claydol (bar Psychic).
- DynamicPunch allows for a 50/50 chance of the opponent setting up entry hazards if slower, which Machoke is EV'd to do so.
- Focus Sash + DynamicPunch + EV's allow it to differentiate itself from Hariyama, who is a completely different lead entriely.
- Has the ability to also 2HKO most opposing leads as well as preventing hazards, something most Taunt users cannot do.
Negatives:
- Currently loses to Spiritomb leads fully. Has major trouble against Uxie and Mesprit leads (although Mesprit must attack first for it to win, lest it is 2HKO'd by Payback).
- Cannot prevent SR from Uxie, Mesprit, or Kabutops due to their superior Speed.
Overall: This is the primary set of Machoke, and (like Heysup mentioned) it is extremely annoying and effective. This set should be approved above all others so far, although the other two have some merit. Refer to the analysis for more information on what it can and cannot do exactly.
SubChoke
Positives: - Substitute allows Machoke to block status (see: WoW) and scout the obvious switch in, normally Ghosts or Flying/Bug types.
- DynamicPunch + Substitute + Leftovers allows Machoke to survive for long periods of time thanks to confusion and its above average attack of 328.
- EV's allow it to outpace all heavy walls, such as Registeel, Regirock, and Chansey, which will easily force switches and give Machoke plenty of opportunity to switch in mid to late game.
- Only set that can currently beat out Spiritomb (Toxic bar Rest variants and Encore) and deal with the Slow brothers (Toxic). Also can deal with Venusaur and Scyther (Ice Punch).
- It's a unique set, as in, no other UU Poke can take advantage of Substitute + Confusion coming from a 328 Attack stat + a 100 BP STAB move.
- With Thunder Wave support, this set is extremely hard (near impossible) to take down, thanks to Substitute and a 60% chance of failing to break said Substitute with paralysis + confusion. It also helps with Machoke's poor Speed.
Negatives: - Individually, this set is very slow. Therefore, unless it is designed to outpace slow threats or it is under a Substitute, it will have a hard time dealing with medium to fast opponents.
- Machoke does not have the greatest of defenses (although with the EV investment, it can take most weak attacks well), so it's not the hardest to take down outside of a Substitute.
- It cannot switch into every Pokemon. It will have trouble switching in on fast sweepers and the like.
- Still has some counters depending on move choice, and Moltres is still an issue.
Overall: I feel that this set has a lot of potential. Before you vote against this set, I ask that you test it (if you have the time). I have tested it thoroughly, and can attest to how well it did with TWave + Hazard support. I'll take it off if necessary, but others have used this set to some success, and it is quite unique in the UU tier. It's not as big as a pull as the Lead set, but still. :)
Choice Band
Positives: - Some damage calculations:
DynamicPunchAgainst: Bulky Milotic: 47.6% - 56.5% (Guaranteed 2HKO after SR)
Tank Registeel: 87.4% - 102.7% (Very good shot at a OHKO after SR)
Tank Regirock: 66.5% - 79.1% (2HKO)
Standard Rhyperior: 65.9% - 78% (2HKO)
0/4 LO Venusaur: 43.2% - 50.8% (2HKO after SR)
Rapid Spinner Donphan: 48.5% - 57.5% (Guaranteed 2HKO after SR)
Utility Blastoise: 44.8% - 53% (okay shot at 2HKO after SR damage, 2HKO with SR + Spikes)
- The most threatening of the three sets offensively immediately. Has immediate power of 492, which is very good paired with STAB DynamicPunch.
- Once again, Confusion is key, racking up more opportunities to 2HKO things with DPunch.
- Amazing coverage. Dark/Fighting hits most things unresisted, and BoltBeam as the third and fourth spots means that Machoke hits the entire metagame for, at the least, neutral damage.
- Almost nothing is safe to switch into Choice Band Machoke attacking.
Negatives: - Outclassed by Hariyama, who has a larger HP, Attack, and Speed stat. Also doubles as a status absorber with Guts, which Machoke cannot do.
- Cannot outright OHKO things like Hariyama, but has more opportunities to 2HKO things thanks to confusion.
- Once again, speed is an issue (even moreso than the Sub set).
- It is extremely weak to status. Once it's Burned, the set become pretty much useless.
Overall:
If any set, this one is the most likely to get cut. However, it is indeed useful, and has many positives. It'll definitely get a mention in the OC in the end, though.
I'd be happy to adress any questions too. :) Feel free to ask!
Also for easy reference, here's the battle logs on the first page. Note that there are no battle logs for the Band set.
LeadChoke:
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Testnut sent out Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
inky13112 sent out Cloyster (lvl 100 Cloyster ?).
Cloyster used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's super effective!
Cloyster lost 72% of its health.
Cloyster became confused!
---
Cloyster is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Cloyster lost 9% of its health.
Machoke used Payback.
Cloyster lost 20% of its health.
inky13112's Cloyster fainted.
---
inky13112 switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Milotic used Hydro Pump.
Machoke lost 100% of its health.
Machoke hung on using its Focus Sash!
Milotic lost 10% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Milotic lost 64% of its health.
Milotic became confused!
---
Milotic is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Milotic lost 7% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Milotic lost 20% of its health.
inky13112's Milotic fainted.
---
inky13112 switched in Porygon2 (lvl 100 Porygon2).
Porygon2 traced Machoke's No Guard!
Porygon2 used Thunderbolt.
Machoke lost 0% of its health.
Testnut's Machoke fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Skuntank (lvl 100 Skuntank ?).
Skuntank was hurt by Spikes!
Skuntank lost 12% of its health.
Skuntank used Taunt.
Porygon2 fell for the taunt!
Porygon2 used Thunder Wave.
Porygon2 can't use Thunder Wave after the taunt!
Skuntank's leftovers restored its health a little!
Skuntank restored 6% of its health.
---
Skuntank used Explosion.
Porygon2 lost 100% of its health.
inky13112's Porygon2 fainted.
Testnut's Skuntank fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Donphan (lvl 100 Donphan ?).
inky13112 switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Donphan was hurt by Spikes!
Donphan lost 12% of its health.
Venusaur used Energy Ball.
It's super effective!
Donphan lost 88% of its health.
Testnut's Donphan fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Houndoom was hurt by Spikes!
Houndoom lost 12% of its health.
Houndoom used Nasty Plot.
Houndoom's special attack was sharply raised.
Venusaur used Sleep Powder.
Houndoom fell asleep!
---
Houndoom is fast asleep!
Venusaur used Leech Seed.
Houndoom was seeded!
Houndoom's health was sapped by leech seed!
Houndoom lost 12% of its health.
Venusaur regained health!
---
inky13112 switched in Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
Houndoom woke up!
Houndoom used Fire Blast.
Mismagius lost 100% of its health.
inky13112's Mismagius fainted.
Houndoom lost 10% of its health.
---
inky13112 switched in Feraligatr (lvl 100 Feraligatr ?).
Houndoom used Dark Pulse.
Feraligatr lost 100% of its health.
inky13112's Feraligatr fainted.
Houndoom lost 10% of its health.
---
inky13112 switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Houndoom used Fire Blast.
It's super effective!
Venusaur lost 100% of its health.
inky13112's Venusaur fainted.
Testnut wins!
Testnut: gg
inky13112 has left the room.
Machoke successfully takes out the Cloyster lead while only allowing one layer of Spikes to be set. It then utilizes its Focus Sash and Confusion to eliminate an Offensive (or Tank) Milotic, showcasing it effectiveness once it has accomplished its job. It also opened up a sweep for my Houndoom.
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Testnut sent out Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
jugarap sent out Pinsir (lvl 100 Pinsir ?).
Pinsir used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Pinsir lost 30% of its health.
Pinsir became confused!
---
jugarap switched in Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
Machoke used Payback.
It's super effective!
Mismagius lost 100% of its health.
jugarap's Mismagius fainted.
---
jugarap switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
jugarap switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 36% of its health.
Venusaur became confused!
---
Venusaur is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Venusaur lost 13% of its health.
Machoke used Payback.
Venusaur lost 42% of its health.
---
Machoke used Bullet Punch.
Venusaur lost 9% of its health.
jugarap's Venusaur fainted.
---
jugarap switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Milotic used Hydro Pump.
Machoke lost 100% of its health.
Machoke hung on using its Focus Sash!
Milotic lost 10% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Milotic lost 49% of its health.
Milotic became confused!
---
Milotic is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Milotic lost 5% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Milotic lost 36% of its health.
jugarap's Milotic fainted.
---
jugarap switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Houndoom used Fire Blast.
Machoke lost 0% of its health.
Testnut's Machoke fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Pointed stones dug into Milotic.
Milotic lost 12% of its health.
jugarap switched in Aggron (lvl 100 Aggron ?).
Milotic used Surf.
It's super effective!
Aggron lost 100% of its health.
jugarap's Aggron fainted.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
jugarap switched in Pinsir (lvl 100 Pinsir ?).
Pinsir used Earthquake.
Milotic lost 25% of its health.
Milotic used Surf.
Pinsir lost 51% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Pinsir used Stone Edge.
Milotic lost 26% of its health.
Milotic used Recover.
Milotic restored 50% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 2% of its health.
---
Pinsir used Stone Edge.
Milotic lost 28% of its health.
Milotic used Surf.
Pinsir lost 18% of its health.
jugarap's Pinsir fainted.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
jugarap switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Houndoom used Hidden Power.
Milotic lost 19% of its health.
Milotic used Surf.
It's super effective!
Houndoom lost 92% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Houndoom used Hidden Power.
A critical hit!
Milotic lost 36% of its health.
Milotic used Surf.
It's super effective!
Houndoom lost 8% of its health.
jugarap's Houndoom fainted.
Testnut wins!
Testnut: gg
jugarap has left the room.
Even though Pinsir resisted DynamicPunch, the confusion forced the opponent to switch, which I successfully predicted to be a Ghost. The opponent pulled a double switch to Venusaur, and Confusion plus Priority enabled me to KO it. Machoke then, like in the previous match, utilized its Focus Sash and Confusion to beat Milotic. This paved the way for Milotic to finish off the match, since its counters were removed.
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Testnut sent out Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
O-RLYavatar sent out Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
O-RLYavatar switched in Weezing (lvl 100 Weezing ?).
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Weezing lost 15% of its health.
Weezing became confused!
Weezing's leftovers restored its health a little!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Weezing is confused!
Weezing used Will-o-wisp.
Houndoom's Flash Fire raised its fire power!
Weezing's leftovers restored its health a little!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
Houndoom used Nasty Plot.
Houndoom's special attack was sharply raised.
Weezing is confused!
Weezing used Thunderbolt.
Houndoom lost 26% of its health.
Weezing's leftovers restored its health a little!
Weezing restored 3% of its health.
---
Houndoom used Fire Blast.
Weezing lost 100% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Weezing fainted.
Houndoom lost 10% of its health.
---
O-RLYavatar switched in Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
Testnut switched in Scyther (lvl 100 Scyther ?).
Sceptile used Focus Blast.
It's not very effective...
Scyther lost 18% of its health.
---
O-RLYavatar switched in Altaria (lvl 100 Altaria ?).
Scyther used Swords Dance.
Scyther's attack was sharply raised.
---
Scyther used Aerial Ace.
Altaria lost 100% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Altaria fainted.
Scyther lost 10% of its health.
---
O-RLYavatar switched in Claydol (lvl 100 Claydol).
Scyther used Aerial Ace.
Claydol lost 90% of its health.
Scyther lost 10% of its health.
Claydol used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Claydol's leftovers restored its health a little!
Claydol restored 6% of its health.
---
Scyther used Aerial Ace.
Claydol lost 16% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Claydol fainted.
Scyther lost 10% of its health.
---
O-RLYavatar switched in Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
Scyther used Quick Attack.
Sceptile lost 81% of its health.
Scyther lost 10% of its health.
Sceptile used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Scyther lost 42% of its health.
Testnut's Scyther fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Donphan (lvl 100 Donphan ?).
Pointed stones dug into Donphan.
Donphan lost 6% of its health.
Sceptile used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Donphan lost 94% of its health.
Testnut's Donphan fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Pointed stones dug into Milotic.
Milotic lost 12% of its health.
O-RLYavatar switched in Lanturn (lvl 100 Lanturn ?).
Milotic used Toxic.
Lanturn was badly poisoned!
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
Lanturn is hurt by poison!
Lanturn lost 6% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Skuntank (lvl 100 Skuntank ?).
Pointed stones dug into Skuntank.
Skuntank lost 12% of its health.
Lanturn used Thunderbolt.
Skuntank lost 47% of its health.
Skuntank's leftovers restored its health a little!
Skuntank restored 6% of its health.
Lanturn's leftovers restored its health a little!
Lanturn restored 6% of its health.
Lanturn is hurt by poison!
Lanturn lost 12% of its health.
---
Skuntank used Explosion.
Lanturn lost 88% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Lanturn fainted.
Testnut's Skuntank fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
O-RLYavatar switched in Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
Pointed stones dug into Machoke.
Machoke lost 6% of its health.
Machoke used Bullet Punch.
Sceptile lost 19% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Sceptile fainted.
---
O-RLYavatar switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
Absol used Sucker Punch.
It's not very effective...
Machoke lost 37% of its health.
Absol lost 10% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's super effective!
Absol lost 90% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Absol fainted.
Testnut wins!
Testnut: gg
O-RLYavatar has left the room.
While initially unsuccessful in its endeavor as a lead, this match showcases LeadChoke's usefulness throughout the entire match, revenging Sceptile and finishing off Absol to win the match.
SubChoke:
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Testnut sent out Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Jungle18 sent out Scyther (lvl 100 Scyther ?).
Scyther used U-turn.
It's not very effective...
Qwilfish lost 42% of its health.
Jungle18 switched in Steelix (lvl 100 Steelix ?).
Qwilfish used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Steelix lost 34% of its health.
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Steelix used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Steelix used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Qwilfish lost 58% of its health.
Testnut's Qwilfish fainted.
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
Pointed stones dug into Machoke.
Machoke lost 6% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Steelix used Toxic.
But it failed!
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's super effective!
Steelix lost 52% of its health.
Steelix became confused!
Steelix is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Steelix lost 5% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Jungle18 switched in Scyther (lvl 100 Scyther ?).
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Scyther lost 17% of its health.
Scyther became confused!
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Scyther is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Scyther lost 30% of its health.
Machoke used Toxic.
Scyther was badly poisoned!
Scyther is hurt by poison!
Scyther lost 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Scyther is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Scyther lost 25% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
But it failed!
Scyther is hurt by poison!
Scyther lost 12% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Scyther is confused!
Scyther used Aerial Ace.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Scyther is hurt by poison!
Scyther lost 11% of its health.
Jungle18's Scyther fainted.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Jungle18 switched in Leafeon (lvl 100 Leafeon ?).
Leafeon was hurt by Spikes!
Leafeon lost 19% of its health.
Leafeon used Leaf Blade.
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Leafeon lost 42% of its health.
Leafeon became confused!
Leafeon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Leafeon restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Jungle18 switched in Feraligatr (lvl 100 Feraligatr ?).
Feraligatr was hurt by Spikes!
Feraligatr lost 19% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Feraligatr's leftovers restored its health a little!
Feraligatr restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Feraligatr used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Feraligatr lost 49% of its health.
Feraligatr became confused!
Feraligatr's leftovers restored its health a little!
Feraligatr restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Feraligatr is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Feraligatr lost 15% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Feraligatr's leftovers restored its health a little!
Feraligatr restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Feraligatr is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Feraligatr lost 14% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
A critical hit!
Feraligatr lost 22% of its health.
Jungle18's Feraligatr fainted.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Jungle18 switched in Hitmontop (lvl 100 Hitmontop ?).
Hitmontop was hurt by Spikes!
Hitmontop lost 19% of its health.
Hitmontop used Sucker Punch.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Hitmontop lost 59% of its health.
Hitmontop became confused!
Hitmontop's leftovers restored its health a little!
Hitmontop restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Hitmontop is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Hitmontop lost 13% of its health.
Machoke used Toxic.
Hitmontop was badly poisoned!
Hitmontop's leftovers restored its health a little!
Hitmontop restored 6% of its health.
Hitmontop is hurt by poison!
Hitmontop lost 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Jungle18: gg
Jungle18 has left the room.
Testnut wins!
Testnut: gg
While this isn't a complete battle, as the opponent left early, SubChoke was successfully able to KO and cripple a good portion of the opponents team simply because of the Substitute on Steelix. While it didn't outright OHKO things, it had enough power to place huge dents in each Pokemon, and thanks to Confusion, added a few extra turns to spread around Toxic. It also showcases its ability to Toxic Stall opponents.
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Testnut sent out Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
StarvinMarvin sent out Shedinja (lvl 100 Shedinja).
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Shedinja used Will-o-wisp.
Qwilfish was burned!
Qwilfish was hurt by its burn!
Qwilfish lost 12% of its health.
---
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Shedinja used Swords Dance.
Shedinja's attack was sharply raised.
Qwilfish was hurt by its burn!
Qwilfish lost 12% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Shedinja's attack!
Shedinja used Swords Dance.
Shedinja's attack was sharply raised.
---
Shedinja used Shadow Claw.
Arcanine lost 65% of its health.
Arcanine used Roar.
StarvinMarvin switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Arcanine's attack!
Arcanine was hurt by Spikes!
Arcanine lost 19% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
---
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Arcanine lost 20% of its health.
Arcanine used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Arcanine lost 44% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
---
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Arcanine lost 20% of its health.
Arcanine used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Arcanine lost 49% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
---
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Arcanine lost 13% of its health.
Testnut's Arcanine fainted.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Qwilfish lost 37% of its health.
Qwilfish used Aqua Jet.
It's super effective!
Arcanine lost 13% of its health.
StarvinMarvin's Arcanine fainted.
Qwilfish was hurt by its burn!
Qwilfish lost 12% of its health.
---
StarvinMarvin switched in Altaria (lvl 100 Altaria ?).
Qwilfish used Explosion.
Altaria lost 88% of its health.
Testnut's Qwilfish fainted.
Altaria used Earthquake.
But there was no target!
---
Testnut switched in Registeel (lvl 100 Registeel).
Altaria used Roost.
Altaria restored 50% of its health.
Registeel used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
---
Altaria used Dragon Dance.
Altaria's attack was raised.
Altaria's speed was raised.
Registeel used Explosion.
Altaria lost 62% of its health.
StarvinMarvin's Altaria fainted.
Testnut's Registeel fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
StarvinMarvin switched in Shedinja (lvl 100 Shedinja).
Shedinja was hurt by Spikes!
Shedinja lost 100% of its health.
StarvinMarvin's Shedinja fainted.
Pointed stones dug into Shedinja.
StarvinMarvin switched in Porygon2 (lvl 100 Porygon2).
Porygon2's Download raised its stats!
Porygon2's attack was raised.
Porygon2 was hurt by Spikes!
Porygon2 lost 19% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Porygon2.
Porygon2 lost 12% of its health.
Testnut switched in Altaria (lvl 100 Altaria ?).
Porygon2 used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Altaria lost 100% of its health.
Testnut's Altaria fainted.
Porygon2 lost 10% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
StarvinMarvin switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Mesprit used Psychic.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Mesprit lost 18% of its health.
Mesprit became confused!
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Mesprit is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Mesprit lost 7% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Mesprit is confused!
Mesprit used Psychic.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Payback.
It's super effective!
Mesprit lost 52% of its health.
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Mesprit is confused!
Mesprit used Rest.
Mesprit fell asleep!
Mesprit restored 66% of its health.
Machoke used Payback.
It's super effective!
Mesprit lost 53% of its health.
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
StarvinMarvin switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Milotic was hurt by Spikes!
Milotic lost 19% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Milotic.
Milotic lost 12% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Milotic used Surf.
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Milotic lost 42% of its health.
Milotic became confused!
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Milotic is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Milotic lost 5% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Milotic is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Milotic lost 6% of its health.
Machoke used Toxic.
Milotic was badly poisoned!
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
Milotic is hurt by poison!
Milotic lost 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Milotic is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Milotic lost 3% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
A critical hit!
Milotic lost 31% of its health.
StarvinMarvin's Milotic fainted.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
StarvinMarvin switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
Mesprit is fast asleep!
Machoke used Payback.
It's super effective!
Mesprit lost 40% of its health.
StarvinMarvin's Mesprit fainted.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
StarvinMarvin has left the room.
Testnut wins!
Like its OU counterpart, Machoke relies on his confusion this match to successfully beat out a Mesprit with Rest and a Milotic. Like the other match, the opponent leaves early.
I approve the lead set and only the lead set. I think this lead set is incredibly annoying and definitely has perks over Hariyama. It a) has 50% chance of stopping set up from various Pokemon, b) has the ability to run Focus Sash and Protect to fair better against other Pokemon such as Ambipom.
I'll go ahead and edit everything out of your bit below that doesn't specifically relate to what machoke can / can't do better than hariyama
SubChoke
Positives:
- DynamicPunch + Substitute + Leftovers allows Machoke to survive for long periods of time thanks to confusion and its above average attack of 328.
- It's a unique set, as in, no other UU Poke can take advantage of Substitute + Confusion coming from a 328 Attack stat + a 100 BP STAB move.
- With Thunder Wave support, this set is extremely hard (near impossible) to take down, thanks to Substitute and a 60% chance of failing to break said Substitute with paralysis + confusion. It also helps with Machoke's poor Speed.
Negatives:
- Individually, this set is very slow. Therefore, unless it is designed to outpace slow threats or it is under a Substitute, it will have a hard time dealing with medium to fast opponents.
- Machoke does not have the greatest of defenses (although with the EV investment, it can take most weak attacks well), so it's not the hardest to take down outside of a Substitute.
- It cannot switch into every Pokemon. It will have trouble switching in on fast sweepers and the like.
- Still has some counters depending on move choice, and Moltres is still an issue.
Overall:
I feel that this set has a lot of potential. Before you vote against this set, I ask that you test it (if you have the time). I have tested it thoroughly, and can attest to how well it did with TWave + Hazard support. I'll take it off if necessary, but others have used this set to some success, and it is quite unique in the UU tier. It's not as big as a pull as the Lead set, but still. :)
Some other things to mention: Hariyama hits approximately more than 50% harder because it uses Focus Punch and also it can punch you in the face with Focus Punch
Choice Band
Positives:
- Once again, Confusion is key, racking up more opportunities to 2HKO things with DPunch.
Negatives:
- Outclassed by Hariyama, who has a larger HP, Attack, and Speed stat. Also doubles as a status absorber with Guts, which Machoke cannot do.
- Cannot outright OHKO things like Hariyama
- Once again, speed is an issue (even moreso than the Sub set).
- It is extremely weak to status. Once it's Burned, the set become pretty much useless.
Generally when you say a set is outclassed by something, it means it's outclassed by something. So, uh, yeah. Outclassed. Good game.
Anyway, my point is I don't see a really big reason to ever use Machoke over Hariyama unless you have a confusion fetish, as his non lead sets kinda have problems not being worse hariyamas, and his lead set can be done by hariyama pretty much exactly the same (actually better because of guts and fake out over bullet punch), just no confusion
I have to agree with CIM in pretty much every way. Unless you have some kind of stiffy for confusion, Machoke is purely outclassed by Hariyama in pretty much every way. I guess confusion has the chance to be gay, but in that case why don't we have a confuse ray set for everything that learns it ?_? and since I think we can agree that would be stupid, it seems odd to approve an inferior Hariyama simply because it has the ability to inflict Confusion.
Lead Attacker Hariyama's Close Combat:
Tank Regirock: 79.1% - 94% (2HKO, and cannot prevent SR)
Standard Rhyperior: 78% - 92.1% (2HKO, and cannot prevent SR)
Guaranteed losses to: Uxie, Mesprit, Moltres, Alakazam, Spiritomb, Qwilfish (Spikes + Explosion or two layers of Spikes guaranteed = loss). Will have immense troubles against Ambipom (assuming no Protect). Cannot prevent or minimalize hazards from the following Pokemon: Uxie, Mesprit, Regirock, Rhyperior, Kabutops.
As for it running the same set as Machoke, not entirely. If one were to run a Focus Sash set, it would then be unable to OHKO Omastar, Registeel, and Cloyster leads, resulting in two more loses (in fact, Omastar will 2HKO it with Surf after the -1 drop, Cloyster gets a minimum of two layers or one plus Explosion, and Omastar gets a minimum of SR and one layer of Spikes). So, basically, by running a Focus Sash set, you receive Machoke's choice in surviving Alakazam and Moltres by trading away three more leads you are forced to let set up entry hazards. Machoke just does a better job, to be honest.
Some other things to mention: Hariyama hits approximately more than 50% harder because it uses Focus Punch and also it can punch you in the face with Focus Punch
I don't really understand this one.
SubPunch Hariyama's Focus Punch vs. Regirock: 64.8% - 77.5% (2HKO)
Machoke's DynamicPunch vs. Regirock: 45.1% - 53.3% (2HKO)
That's around a 33% difference, and it's possible for Machoke to run Focus Punch too. In which case, Machoke would actually do more damage currently. Not to mention that SubPunch Hariyama is completely different than SubChoke in how its played, since one is designed to Sub up, hit, and run, while the other one is designed to Sub up, hit, and sub up again without harm. SubPunch Breloom does not outclass Substitute Machamp just because it hits a little bit harder, after all.
Generally when you say a set is outclassed by something, it means it's outclassed by something. So, uh, yeah. Outclassed. Good game.
Like I've alreadyy mentioned, this set above all others has a severe case of outclassing. Confusion is pretty much one of the only draws to the set as compared to Hariyama, as it allows things to have a greater chance to be 2HKO'd than Hariyama currently does. It's no surprise to me that it's outclassed. :/ I have no problem adding this to the OC section.
Anyway, my point is I don't see a really big reason to ever use Machoke over Hariyama unless you have a confusion fetish, as his non lead sets kinda have problems not being worse hariyamas, and his lead set can be done by hariyama pretty much exactly the same (actually better because of guts and fake out over bullet punch), just no confusion
I feel you are oversimplifying the difference as "confusion or no confusion." Yes, confusion is a big draw to using Machoke. However, like I pointed out, Machoke does a much better job in the lead position at preventing hazards from being placed. Machoke is NOT a simple anti-lead like Hariyama. It is designed to limit the opponent from setting up hazards while also 2HKO'ing or OHKO'ing leads in the process. This is something Hariyama cannot do. SubChoke is also completely unique as compared to Hariyama. It's more than just "OOh, I like confusion and want to use it!" It's about setting up another Substitute while watching your opponent hit himself, and then switch out to a Ghost as a result, only for it to be Payback'd. It's a completely different playstyle than Hariyama. The only reason I feel that people are comparing the two, to be honest, are stats. Machoke's playstyle and success is much, much more than its stats.
I have to agree with CIM in pretty much every way. Unless you have some kind of stiffy for confusion, Machoke is purely outclassed by Hariyama in pretty much every way. I guess confusion has the chance to be gay, but in that case why don't we have a confuse ray set for everything that learns it ?_? and since I think we can agree that would be stupid, it seems odd to approve an inferior Hariyama simply because it has the ability to inflict Confusion.
See: above on how Machoke is a better lead. I just wanted to address the Confuse Ray bit.
There is a big difference between causing a 50/50 chance of missing, and causing a 50/50 chance of missing off of a STAB 100 BP Fighting move that most UU leads are weak to. Machoke is designed to not only prevent SR and limit Spikes through confusion, but to beat said leads as well. That's a huge difference between the two.
I have played with and against the lead set and can attest to its annoying nature. The real advantage to using Machoke as a lead is how it breaks sash, induces confusion, and in doing so inhibits further setup or return attacks all with one move. It's also, without a doubt, the only set not completely outclassed by Hariyama. I'd like to recommend Rock Slide as the primary option over Payback to OHKO Moltres and maim Arcanine, as even with Payback, you fail to 2HKO Uxie and Mesprit.
Lead: I'm still not seeing it. It's inferior outside of the infliction of confusion due to its lower stats across the board, and a lead that only has a 50% chance to not be horribly outclassed is iffy at best. Like Heysup, it's the only set that I wouldn't just be flat-out opposed to, but I still don't think Confusion is worth the set when that's the only thing preventing the set from being outclassed.
SubPunch: In terms of raw stats, Machoke has exactly 1 advantage: 9 points of attack. Hariyama's advantages? 95 HP and 64 Defense. That's not to mention that Hariyama can produce 101 subs, or produce subs which survive important attacks, or that unlike Machoke, it's not even running a +Attack nature. Confusion is literally the only draw of the set, because Hariyama is winning with its retardedly bulky Substitutes and additional resistances.
Choice Band: This one's a no-brainer. Hariyama not only has more opportunities to switch in due to its resistances granted by Thick Fat, but it also has more bulk, more speed, and more attack. When you're looking at a Choice Band set, Confusion is not enough to outweigh being beaten at absolutely everything else.
SubPunch: In terms of raw stats, Machoke has exactly 1 advantage: 9 points of attack. Hariyama's advantages? 95 HP and 64 Defense. That's not to mention that Hariyama can produce 101 subs, or produce subs which survive important attacks, or that unlike Machoke, it's not even running a +Attack nature. Confusion is literally the only draw of the set, because Hariyama is winning with its retardedly bulky Substitutes and additional resistances.
Machoke actually has higher Defense (base 70 vs 60) and lower Attack (base 100 vs 120).
Anyway, I agree with Heysup as well; the Lead set is the only viable set in my opinion, but I still have a few reserves. I discussed this a bit on IRC, but again, compared to Hariyama @ Focus Sash with the exact same set (Close Combat over DynamicPunch), Machoke would only have a noticeable advantage against Pokemon that neither can OHKO with their respective Fighting STAB moves (Omastar, for instance). The problem with this is that said Pokemon would (at least they should) switch out instead of attempting to set up Stealth Rock, Spikes, etc. nullifying any advantage that Machoke would have over Hariyama. Granted, they could switch to a resistance that would still end up confused, and perhaps Machoke would have the advantage there; however, they could as easily switch to a Ghost-type or Slowbro/Slowking. Not to mention that depending on confusion is an unreliable strategy to being with. That being said, I think the advantages Machoke have over Hariyama are simply too situational.
By that argument no one should use Machamp in the lead role in OU because Hariyama is much bulkier, hits much harder with Guts, and has Fake Out. You vastly underrate not only the importance of confusion in preventing set up by opposing leads, but also the effects it has on playstyle (makes leads play more conservatively, which can be exploited). I've faced the Machoke lead myself numerous times and, if my own lead did not carry a Lum berry, I know that it would give me significantly more issues than a Hariyama lead would/does.
See, Machamp actually has that crucial "more attack" and "more uninvested bulk" thing going for it. Statistically speaking, Machamp has advantages like 20 points of Attack over Hariyama, which makes up for the 20% drop in power versus Hariyama's Close Combat. In UU, Machoke has no such thing.
@ Eo: I was comparing the spreads: The OP's SubPunch spread (212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe Adamant) versus the listed Hariyama SubPunch spread (80 HP / 172 Atk / 252 Def / 4 Spe Impish). That spread gives Machoke 328 attack to Hariyama's 319, but Hariyama has something stupid like 448 HP and 240 Defense, which means that its Substitutes survive silly shit like Steelix Earthquake and, with a screen, ridiculous things like Azumarill Focus Punch.
By that argument no one should use Machamp in the lead role in OU because Hariyama is much bulkier, hits much harder with Guts, and has Fake Out. You vastly underrate not only the importance of confusion in preventing set up by opposing leads, but also the effects it has on playstyle (makes leads play more conservatively, which can be exploited). I've faced the Machoke lead myself numerous times and, if my own lead did not carry a Lum berry, I know that it would give me significantly more issues than a Hariyama lead would/does.
First of all, I don't believe Hariyama is bulkier than Machamp. Both of Hariyama's defenses are shitty, and it therefore has to dedicate a lot of EVs to a single defense stat to raise it to an acceptable level, thereby leaving the other stat completely uncovered. Guts is irrelevant because a) Machamp has Guts as well and b) using Flame Orb reduces its survivability, which is one of lead Machamp's main selling points (if you just meant switching into status, then see point A). Machamp has a higher Attack stat and 100% accurate DynamicPunch, whereas Hariyama must use the inaccurate Cross Chop or the defense-dropping Close Combat - both of which are available to Machamp as well anyway.
Granted, I'm not going to deny that confusion is important; however, there are several reasons it is more important in OU than in UU. For one, OU's Ghost-types, Gengar and Rotom, cannot KO Machamp before being KOed by it. UU has Spiritomb, for one, and Rotom and Mismagius can actually burn Machoke, whereas in OU Machamp can evade status through its Lum Berry. Slowbro and Slowking are also fairly common.
The main point that needs to be addressed is this: does the confusion outweigh the loss in power?
Hariyama is bulkier than Machamp. Lead Machamp has 252 HP and 92 SDEF (I think? I'm not as good with OU spreads), with the rest into ATK. Lead Machamp hits 369 ATK with the EVs. If we give Hariyama the same EVs to work with as far as defensive investment goes (the EVs go into the defenses, not HP) and also give Hariyama enough EVs to hit Machamp's ATK, Hariyama ends up being very slightly bulkier and having the same power as lead machamp. I'm not going to post the calcs here because this is already somewhat off-topic, but feel free to confirm it for yourself. With an optimal EV spread it takes less from Metagross, Swampert, Azelf, Heatran, etc. etc.
Anyway, the thing that I wanted people to get from my post is that while confusion is the only thing preventing Hariyama from outclassing Machoke, it is indeed a very big thing, to the point where Lead Machamp is pretty much used solely because of it; otherwise arguably better options like Lucario and Hariyama would be used.
I also don't agree with Confusion being less important in UU. UU leads set up spikes way more often than OU leads (although I understand that Skarm and Forry leads are becoming more common now) so a quick confusion is very beneficial in preventing setup, especially since Hariyama allows 2 layers from Omastar and Cloyster and a full three layers from Qwilfish. While Machoke doesn't do much better against these leads as far as damage goes, it CAN cut down on the amount of spikes they lay down due to confusion hax.
Edit: Although, reading through the analysis, I don't see any of this addressed. I think the OP should add some reasoning behind why machoke may be preferred for some teams, despite being statistically inferior to hariyama, due to the confusion chance from Dynamicpunch.
FlareBlitz, Confusion is not that big of a deal that it makes Machamp better than Hariyama, when otherwise Hariyama would be better. Higher Attack, better "overall" defenses (i.e. you don't need to specialize with an "optimal EV spread" to take things, while Hariyama has to pick defense or special defense basically. Your EV spread is also far off; lead Machamp's entire point is to use max Attack to be an offensive threat. It's far from just confusion.
Regardless, we're talking about Machoke, who isn't even close to being as good as Hariyama.
My apologies. I was under the impression that the SDEF EVs are there to guarantee that Azelf never OHKO's Machamp with Psychic, but apparently 252/16 suffices for that purpose just fine. I suppose it's my fault for bringing it up when I don't know OU spreads as well as I should.
At any rate, my second paragraph is what really addresses the distinction between Machoke and Hariyama in UU. It's primarily the ability to deal with multiple-turn set up leads (like spikers and dual screeners) a lot more efficiently.
Close Combat does not give Venusaur / Exeggutor / Uxie / Moltres / Scyther etc a 50% chance to do nothing when they switch in, and the damage difference is really not that noticeable. I'd actually claim that Hariyama with the same set but with CC over DPunch would simply be outclassed. The confusion is what makes this lead set effective, Hariayama relies on power with Guts, and if it doesn't have Guts then it's basically a Machoke that hits slightly harder and doesn't confuse my switch in (which would still take a very small difference in damage between the two). Consequently, without Protect and Focus Sash, Hariyama would lose to Ambipom (among others).
It's not solely about the lead situation, if Cloyster and Omastar are switching out then you need to consider that DynamicPunch is way more annoying to switch into than an ùnboosted Close Combat.
No matter what set you're running with Hariyama, this lead set is definitely not outclassed, whether it's because of the lack of confusion or because it lacks Protect + sash.
So I stand by my stamp only for the lead set (once you start needing to switch in and force out, Hariyama becomes much better).
Okay. While I still think Hariyama is "better", Machoke does have its niche in that regard, and that's enough to be worthy of an analysis. I only approve the lead set, though.
Okay, the OP has been edited to support the Lead set only, per request by QC and IRC chats. I will be editing and revising the current draft in order to add the lost sets to Optional Changes and to update certain sentences to address topics that need to be touched upon. It should be complete shortly (assuming I get my third stamp from Whistle or whoever is qualified). Thanks for the stamps so far, guys!
@ FlareBlitz
I originally had a paragraph detailing why Machoke was superior to Hariyama in the original draft, but per edits and suggestions, decided that it looked too much like clutter and was unnecessary. However, I'll look into mentioning it once again. Thanks!
Close Combat does not give Venusaur / Exeggutor / Uxie / Moltres / Scyther etc a 50% chance to do nothing when they switch in, and the damage difference is really not that noticeable.
All calcs not considering that Hariyama has Fake Out, which adds even more damage.
Machoke Lead DynamicPunch to Support Venusaur: 23.9% - 28%
Hariyama Lead (w/o LO) Close Combat to Support Venusaur: 32.4% - 38.2%
Hariyama Lead (With LO) Close Combat to Support Venusaur: 42% - 49.5%
Machoke Lead DynamicPunch to Support Exeggutor: 21.6% - 25.6%
Hariyama Lead (w/o LO) Close Combat to Support Exeggutor: 29.7% - 35%
Hariyama Lead (with LO) Close Combat to Support Exeggutor: 38.6% - 45.4%
(This also ignores that Hariyama packs Ice Punch and Sleep Talk!)
The rest of the Pokemon can much more easily OHKO Machoke, so why you'd stay in on them in order to try and hax them into Confusion is beyond me and generally sounds stupid.
All calcs not considering that Hariyama has Fake Out, which adds even more damage.
Machoke Lead DynamicPunch to Support Venusaur: 23.9% - 28%
Hariyama Lead (w/o LO) Close Combat to Support Venusaur: 32.4% - 38.2%
Hariyama Lead (With LO) Close Combat to Support Venusaur: 42% - 49.5%
Machoke Lead DynamicPunch to Support Exeggutor: 21.6% - 25.6%
Hariyama Lead (w/o LO) Close Combat to Support Exeggutor: 29.7% - 35%
Hariyama Lead (with LO) Close Combat to Support Exeggutor: 38.6% - 45.4%
(This also ignores that Hariyama packs Ice Punch and Sleep Talk!)
The rest of the Pokemon can much more easily OHKO Machoke, so why you'd stay in on them in order to try and hax them into Confusion is beyond me and generally sounds stupid.
Well, first off, we must assume that Hariyama is holding a Focus Sash and is running Protect. If it is holding a Life Orb, it cannot beat Alakazam and Moltres (and has a harder time with Qwilfish and the like) like Machoke can. If it is not running Protect, Ambipom will just make Hariyama feel silly, and it also reduces the scouting effect Machoke provides (another reason why to use Machoke over Hariyama if not running Protect). That means Life Orb damage isn't in consideration, and Fake Out/Ice Punch/Sleep Talk/Whatever does not currently matter. This provides us with the best comparison.
Now, looking at those damage calculations, Hariyama hits things harder than Machoke's DynamicPunch by around 26%, assuming maximum damage. That's not that large of a margin by any stretch of the imagination, and does not help it score any 2HKO's or OHKO's Machoke can get or against Pokemon Machoke can't already deal with (without a Life Orb, Omastar, Cloyster, and Registeel are now 2HKO'd). Meanwhile, let's talk about those switch-ins from each Lead's perspective.
Hariyama
Turn 1: Hariyama is paired up against a Lead Omastar. Hariyama uses Close Combat as Omastar switches out to Exeggutor. Hariyama deals 29.7% - 35% damage, minus 6% because of Leftovers. So, we'll say around 26% damage on average. Turn 2: ...now what? Hariyama is forced to switch out, lest it be put to sleep or hit with Psychic. At the very best, Hariyama will be brought down to its Sash and hit it back with Payback. Note that Hariyama rarely can 2HKO Exeggutor with CC + Payback because of Lefties, either. This is assuming that it's Support Exeggutor, which to be honest, is quite an outdated set compared to the Specially based Exeggutor that's rising in usage.
Machoke
Turn 1: Machoke is paired up against a Lead Omastar. Machoke uses DynamicPunch as Omastar switches out to Exeggutor. Machoke deals around 21.6% - 25.6%, minus 6% because of Leftovers. So, we'll say around 17% damage. Exeggutor is now confused. Turn 2: This is where we spot the difference. Exeggutor now has a 50/50 shot of hitting Machoke with anything, while Machoke now has the option of either retaliating back for big damage for free, or switching to an appropriate counter for free. At the very worst, Machoke is brought down to its Sash and hits it with Payback.
This is but a simple demonstration, and there are multiple Pokemon that can switch in to each. Note that Spiritomb and Slowking/Slowbro are moot points, as they give both leads the same amount of trouble. One doesn't have the advantage over the other in those situations. This is also ignoring the fact that Machoke with a Sash is able to prevent things like Omastar and the like from setting up SR much better than Hariyama with a Sash can. The opponent cannot help walking right into a DynamicPunch and getting confusion in this case (assuming it's not a Ghost, in which case both leads must use Payback regardless). Machoke just has the ability to KO things Hariyama cannot because of confusion. This is why it's getting approval marks.
All calcs not considering that Hariyama has Fake Out, which adds even more damage.
Machoke Lead DynamicPunch to Support Venusaur: 23.9% - 28%
Hariyama Lead (w/o LO) Close Combat to Support Venusaur: 32.4% - 38.2%
Hariyama Lead (With LO) Close Combat to Support Venusaur: 42% - 49.5%
Machoke Lead DynamicPunch to Support Exeggutor: 21.6% - 25.6%
Hariyama Lead (w/o LO) Close Combat to Support Exeggutor: 29.7% - 35%
Hariyama Lead (with LO) Close Combat to Support Exeggutor: 38.6% - 45.4%
(This also ignores that Hariyama packs Ice Punch and Sleep Talk!)
The rest of the Pokemon can much more easily OHKO Machoke, so why you'd stay in on them in order to try and hax them into Confusion is beyond me and generally sounds stupid.
Hariyama lead doesn't run Life Orb, it runs Toxic / Flame Orb (which actually does more damage than you suggest), but it is still irrelevant. Hariyama loses to leads that Machoke beats with either an idendical set or its standard Guts lead set. On top of this Machoke is much more annoying to switch into because resists - even 4x resists - don't stop confusion. Hariyama's Close Combat.
And as shown, the damage different between the two is really small and doesn't make a difference at all. Remember, also, that we're talking about the lead sets since that's the only set in question that seems to be getting approval.
Lead set works just like it does in OU, should tell you its successful and forces a lot of switches. Even works well midgame with some hazards support.
[OVERVIEW] <p>Machoke may not be as strong as his OU counterpart Machamp, but his blend of a base 100 Attack stat and decent 80/70/60 defenses provide him with the tools he needs in order to succeed in the UU metagame. Machoke's ability, No Guard, along with DynamicPunch sets him apart from other Fighting-types in the UU metagame, and his unique movepool makes him an optimal choice as a lead or mid-game attacker (is he really the best choice merely as a mid-game attacker? QC doesn’t seem to think so).</p>
[SET] name: Lead move 1: DynamicPunch move 2: Payback / Rock Slide move 3: Bullet Punch move 4: Protect item: Focus Sash / Lum Berry ability: No Guard nature: Adamant evs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Instead of focusing on setting up hazards, Machoke's purpose as a lead is to threaten the opposing lead with brute force and DynamicPunch's confusion rate. Machoke can take a huge chunk out of leads that set up entry hazards and limit the number of entry hazards they can set up, weakening them to a point where they can be finished off easily. DynamicPunch is the major pull to using Machoke as a lead, which not only hits any Pokemon who don’t resist it for major damage, but also guarantees confusion on slower leads like Omastar and Rhyperior, as well as incoming Pokemon intended to counter Machoke such as Scyther and Moltres. Confusion is what makes Machoke such a great anti-lead, either giving your opponent a 50% chance of getting up Stealth Rock or Spikes, or forcing your opponent to switch, thus preventing hazards from being set up. Confusion also prevents common switch-ins from a guaranteed attack on Machoke, giving him a chance to retaliate and KO, or switch to an appropriate counter with/at little cost.</p>
<p>The second option comes down to which popular lead your team wants to OHKO: Moltres or Alakazam. Payback hits Alakazam for an OHKO, while Rock Slide guarantees the OHKO on Moltres. Bullet Punch may seem trivial, but it's one of the most important moves on Machoke, helping him take out other Focus Sash leads like Alakazam and Ambipom, and often turning 3HKOs and 4HKOs into 2HKOs and 3HKOs. Protect rounds out the set, allowing Machoke to defeat the popular Fake Out users of UU, like Ambipom and Kangaskhan. It also doubles as a scouting method, effectively dealing with leads he cannot combat against using his attacking moves, like Trick users.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>A choice needs to be made between Rock Slide and Payback. Rock Slide hits Moltres for a guaranteed OHKO, while also hitting the Bug- and Flying-types of UU,which include Scyther and Venemoth, for super effective damage. Note that Machoke must be at full health to deal with the majority of these switch-ins, so that Machoke can use his Focus Sash to survive the would-be OHKO (if he survives it isn’t an OHKO). Payback, on the other hand, guarantees a win against Alakazam leads. Payback also hits non-bulky variants of Rotom and Mismagius for OHKOs, and also has a higher Base Power than Rock Slide, assuming that Machoke is the slowest Pokemon on the field. The choice also depends on your own team, and determining what opposing leads will give the team trouble in the long run.</p>
<p>It is possible to drop Protect altogether, placing Payback and Rock Slide on the same set, to deal with both potential Moltres and Alakazam leads. However, Ambipom can 2HKO Machoke with Fake Out + Return, forcing Machoke out and reducing his role in the match ( I take it this is what you meant), and can use switches to lessen Machoke's role in the match. Machoke also loses his ability to scout other leads and switch-ins, as well as his ability to scout Trick and the rare Switcheroo users.</p>
<p>Focus Sash is necessary to survive Psychic from Alakazam and Air Slash from Moltres without getting OHKOed. It's possible to run a Lum Berry to prevent and KO any Ghost (bar Spiritomb) from burning (won’t stop them trying)Machoke with Will-O-Wisp, allowing you to KO most of them. However, without a Focus Sash, Machoke will lose to leads like Alakazam and Moltres automatically. A type-resist Berry is also acceptable, letting Machoke survive Psychic or Air Slash with slightly more HP than Focus Sash allows, but note that Focus Sash still beats both leads effectively and provides a cushion against powerful neutral attacks.</p>
<p>The EVs are designed to give Machoke as much attacking power as possible, while outrunning certain leads and tanks to prevent Stealth Rock from being set up. With an Adamant nature and 252 Attack EVs, Machoke hits a respectable 328 Attack stat, more than enough to cause massive damage to opposing leads and switch-ins. 100 Speed EVs allow him to outrun thestandard lead Hariyama by one point, as well as any Pokemon slower than Hariyama (including Rhyperior, Omastar, Regirock, Donphan, Chansey and Registeel). The remaining EVs are dumped into HP in order that Machoke can take weak neutral hits better.</p>
<p>Machoke will have immense problems against Spiritomb leads, against which he can do very little. Machoke also has trouble against Uxie and Mesprit leads because of their Speed, although Mesprit is 2HKOed and Uxie is 4HKOed by Payback. Uxie, Mesprit, Kabutops, and Donphan are the only popular leads from whom Machoke cannot prevent Stealth Rock from. Donphan, however, is slower than Machoke, but has immense bulk to survive two or three DynamicPunches. The other three simply are faster than Machoke. For these reasons, pairing Machoke with a Spiritomb is often the best choice to deal with the leads Machoke cannot beat, successfully countering each Pokemon with his bulk and support-based moves. A Rapid Spinner like Donphan or Claydol ensures that Stealth Rock will not be on the field very long after these leads place them down. Chansey, Registeel, and Milotic also make fine partners to combat powerful special attackers like Moltres and Alakazam when Machoke lacks the appropriate move.</p>
[TEAM OPTIONS] <p>As a lead, Both offensive Pokemon and walls appreciate the prevention of entry hazards by Machoke. Pokemon like Absol, Alakazam, and other strong attackers can easily take advantage of there being no Stealth Rock and fewSpikes on the field. Sweepers that are weak to Stealth Rock also greatly appreciate Machoke's knack for preventing it, especially those like Moltres and Scyther who are 4x weak to it. Defensively, Registeel and Chansey can come in and set up Stealth Rock practically for free because of the multitude of Psychic / Flying special attacks Machoke tends to draw in. Dugtrio is also a decent partner for the Lead set, being able to trap and kill weakened leads and Machoke switch-ins. Rapid Spin support is a nice option to pair with Lead Machoke, as once Machoke damages an entry hazard Pokemon, a Rapid Spinner can switch in and successfully spin away any possible hazards without fear of them being set up again later in the match. Pokemon such as Claydol and Donphan are good choices for this role. Hitmontop shares the same weaknesses as Machoke, making it a more risky pick, but is a very effective rapid spinner.</p>
[OPTIONAL CHANGES] <p>Machoke could utilize a Substitute set, which would allow him to be an effective mid-game attacker, much like SubChamp in OU. Using DynamicPunch's 100% confusion rate in conjunction with Substitute and coverage moves would enable Machoke to survive and combat opponents for multiple turns. He lacks the immediate power and bulk of SubPunchers like Hariyama, however. A Choice Band set is viable, being able to 2HKO most of the tier. Aside from the confusion, he is greatly outclassed by Hariyama in this regard, however.</p>
<p>Earthquake could prove useful against any of the Poison-types in the tier, including Toxicroak and Muk. However, DynamicPunch already hits Steel types hard, which lessens Earthquake's potential. Ice Punch is a great coverage move, enabling Machoke to hit Pokemon like Venusaur, Nidoking, and Nidoqueen for big damage. For most sets, DynamicPunch is obviously the Fighting move of choice, but if one wishes for more power or if one is running a potential Guts set, Machoke does have access to Close Combat, Revenge, Superpower, and Cross Chop.</p>
<p>In terms of support moves, Scary Face is a viable move, and gives Machoke a way to severely cripple switch-ins who generally out-speed Machoke. Scary Face also works well in conjunction with Spikes and Stealth Rock, enabling Machoke to play the role of a Phazer with the numerous switches Scary Face will cause. Encore is a useful move in conjunction with Substitute, locking Pokemon attempting to set up on Machoke into their boosting or status move. Toxic is a great choice to harm Machoke's normal counters, including Slowbro, Slowking, and non-Rest variants of Spiritomb. It is important to note that Toxic will never miss, thanks to No Guard. The only useful boosting move Machoke receives is Bulk Up, which can be used to some effect in conjunction with DynamicPunch. However, a Bulk Up set is mostly outclassed by Hitmontop and Hariyama due to their higher offensive and defensive stats.</p>
[COUNTERS] <p>Spiritomb is most likely the greatest threat to Machoke, being immune to his STAB attack and taking neutral damage from all other attacks. In return, he can Will-O-Wisp Machoke, making him near useless, or start setting up with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Slowbro and Slowking are a close second, both resisting his STAB attack, while their ability naturally prevents confusion. They can then fire off STAB Psychic to quickly dispatch of Machoke. Weezing shares similar resistances with Slowbro while having immense physical bulk and access to Will-O-Wisp. Venusaur can come in on Machoke relatively safely, although he will not like the confusion caused by DynamicPunch nor Ice Punch. He can then put Machoke to sleep and set up or use Leech Seed.</p>
<p>Machoke suffers from incredibly low Speed. This can be taken advantage of by numerous offensive switch-ins, like Moltres and Alakazam, and the like. However, there are very few Pokemon that like switching into one of Machoke's DynamicPunches or Machoke under a Substitute, so keep this in mind.</p>
