Machoke (Analysis)

DarkSlay · Apr 16, 2010

STATUS: ANALYSIS COMPLETE! READY FOR UPLOADING!

CURRENT NOTES:

(4/15): The goal is to create an analysis for Machoke in UU play. The main pull initially is the Lead set, which has been extremely successful, and quite a few other competitive players have been taking advantage of it. However, there could be possible options for other sets that could be of use in the UU tier, which I will include now and later. For now, the Lead set is the major focus.

(4/18): Edited the analysis and changed some of the sentences around to fit certain threats. I am considering eliminating the Hariyama paragraph (or at least shortening it) due to its slight irrelevance to Machoke's purpose in general. I am also testing out a Sub + Three Attacks set, so if anyone wants to as well and post results, feel free.

(4/19): After successful testing, created a Substitute + Three Attacks moveset. I also eliminated the Hariyama paragraph in the Lead set, as it was mostly clutter.

(4/29): Re-edited the analysis again. It is almost ready to be considered finished. Looking for some last minute comments before I officially call this analysis complete. I will finalize this in a couple of days.

(5/5): Analysis is complete! All that's left is for it to be approved for uploading and/or a concise check. Thanks to everyone who have supported this C&C!

(5/31): Ran over the analysis one last time for any errors.Updated the analysis after the post-Raikou/Froslass changes. Updated the Substitute + Three Attacks set after testing out Toxic to cripple normal switch-ins. Provided new EV sets for the Substitute + Three Attacks and Choice Band set, Updated the Counters and Optional Changes section. Added some battle logs in the newest post to showcase LeadChoke and SubChoke.

(6/22): Removed all sets bar Lead, per QC. In the process of redoing Optional Changes section and retooling some descriptions.

(6/24): Analyisis updated! Includes the new "he/she" guideline changes. Includes the removal of the Substitute and Choice Band sets to Optional Changes. Includes revamp of the Optional Changes section, Overview, and Lead descriptions.

(6/30): Analysis has been GP checked twice, passing both inspections. Changes have been made accordingly. Analysis is ready for uploading!

STAMPS EARNED:

(Heysup)
(Eo)
(ToF)

(jc104)
(Dr. Reid)

[OVERVIEW]

Machoke may not be as strong as his OU counterpart Machamp, but his blend of a base 100 Attack stat and decent 80/70/60 defenses provide him with the tools he needs in order to succeed in the UU metagame. Machoke's ability, No Guard, along with DynamicPunch sets him apart from other Fighting-types in the UU metagame, and his unique movepool makes him an optimal choice as a lead.

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Payback / Rock Slide
move 3: Bullet Punch
move 4: Protect
item: Focus Sash / Lum Berry
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

Instead of focusing on setting up hazards, Machoke's purpose as a lead is to threaten the opposing lead with brute force and DynamicPunch's confusion rate. Machoke can take a huge chunk out of leads that set up entry hazards and limit the number of entry hazards they can set up, weakening them to a point where they can be finished off easily. DynamicPunch is the major pull to using Machoke as a lead, which not only hits any Pokemon who don’t resist it for major damage, but also guarantees confusion on slower leads like Omastar and Rhyperior, as well as incoming Pokemon intended to counter Machoke such as Scyther and Moltres. Confusion is what makes Machoke such a great anti-lead, either giving your opponent a 50% chance of getting up Stealth Rock or Spikes, or forcing your opponent to switch, thus preventing hazards from being set up. Confusion also prevents common switch-ins from a guaranteed attack on Machoke, giving him a chance to retaliate and KO, or switch to an appropriate counter at little cost.

The second option comes down to which popular lead your team wants to OHKO: Moltres or Alakazam. Payback hits Alakazam for an OHKO, while Rock Slide guarantees the OHKO on Moltres. Bullet Punch may seem trivial, but it's one of the most important moves on Machoke, helping him take out other Focus Sash leads like Alakazam and Ambipom, and often turning 3HKOs and 4HKOs into 2HKOs and 3HKOs. Protect rounds out the set, allowing Machoke to defeat the popular Fake Out users of UU, like Ambipom and Kangaskhan. It also doubles as a scouting method, effectively dealing with leads he cannot combat using his attacking moves, like Trick users.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

A choice needs to be made between Rock Slide and Payback. Rock Slide hits Moltres for a guaranteed OHKO, while also hitting the Bug- and Flying-types of UU, which include Scyther and Venemoth, for super effective damage. Note that Machoke must be at full health to deal with the majority of these switch-ins, so that Machoke can use his Focus Sash to survive the would-be OHKO. Payback, on the other hand, guarantees a win against Alakazam leads. Payback also hits non-bulky variants of Rotom and Mismagius for OHKOs, andhas a higher Base Power than Rock Slide, assuming that Machoke is the slowest Pokemon on the field. The choice also depends on your own team, and determining what opposing leads will give the team trouble in the long run.

It is possible to drop Protect altogether, placing Payback and Rock Slide on the same set, to deal with both Moltres and Alakazam leads. However, Ambipom can 2HKO Machoke with Fake Out + Return, forcing Machoke out and reducing his role in the match. Machoke also loses his ability to scout other leads and switch-ins, as well as his ability to scout Trick users.

Focus Sash is necessary to survive Psychic from Alakazam and Air Slash from Moltres without getting OHKOed. It's possible to run a Lum Berry to prevent any Ghost (bar Spiritomb) from burning Machoke with Will-O-Wisp, allowing you to KO most of them. However, without a Focus Sash, Machoke will lose to leads like Alakazam and Moltres automatically. A type-resist Berry is also acceptable, letting Machoke survive Psychic or Air Slash with slightly more HP than Focus Sash allows, but note that Focus Sash still beats both leads effectively and provides a cushion against powerful neutral attacks.

The EVs are designed to give Machoke as much attacking power as possible, while still outrunning certain leads and tanks to prevent Stealth Rock from being set up. With an Adamant nature and 252 Attack EVs, Machoke hits a respectable 328 Attack stat, more than enough to cause massive damage to opposing leads and switch-ins. 100 Speed EVs allow him to outrun the standard lead Hariyama by one point, as well as any Pokemon slower than Hariyama (including Rhyperior, Omastar, Regirock, Donphan, Chansey and Registeel). The remaining EVs are dumped into HP in order that Machoke can take weak neutral hits better.

Machoke will have immense problems against Spiritomb leads, against which he can do very little. Machoke also has trouble against Uxie and Mesprit leads because of their Speed, although Mesprit is 2HKOed with Payback. The only popular leads that will be able to set up Stealth Rock against Machoke are Uxie, Mesprit, Kabutops, and Donphan. Donphan is slower than Machoke, but has immense bulk to survive two or three DynamicPunches. The other three simply are faster than Machoke. For these reasons, pairing Machoke with a Spiritomb is often the best choice to deal with the leads Machoke cannot beat, successfully countering each Pokemon with his bulk and support-based moves. A Rapid Spinner like Donphan or Claydol ensures that Stealth Rock will not be on the field very long after these leads place them down. Chansey, Registeel, and Milotic also make fine partners to combat powerful special attackers like Moltres and Alakazam when Machoke lacks the appropriate move.

[TEAM OPTIONS]
Both offensive Pokemon and walls appreciate the prevention of entry hazards by Machoke. Pokemon like Absol, Alakazam, and other strong attackers can easily take advantage of there being no Stealth Rock and few Spikes on the field. Sweepers that are weak to Stealth Rock also greatly appreciate Machoke's knack for preventing it, especially those like Moltres and Scyther who are 4x weak to it. Defensively, Registeel and Chansey can come in and set up Stealth Rock practically for free because of the multitude of Psychic / Flying special attacks Machoke tends to draw in. Dugtrio is also a decent partner, being able to trap and kill weakened leads and Machoke switch-ins. Rapid Spin support is a nice option to pair with Machoke, as once Machoke damages an entry hazard Pokemon, a Rapid Spinner can switch in and successfully spin away any possible hazards without fear of them being set up again later in the match. Pokemon such as Claydol and Donphan are good choices for this role. Hitmontop shares the same weaknesses as Machoke, making it a more risky pick, but is a very effective rapid spinner.

[OPTIONAL CHANGES]
Machoke could utilize a Substitute set, which would allow him to be an effective mid-game attacker, much like SubChamp in OU. Using DynamicPunch's 100% confusion rate in conjunction with Substitute and coverage moves would enable Machoke to survive and combat opponents for multiple turns. He lacks the immediate power and bulk of SubPunchers like Hariyama, however. A Choice Band set is viable, being able to 2HKO most of the tier. However, aside from the 100% accurate DynamicPunch, he is greatly outclassed by Hariyama in this regard.

Earthquake could prove useful against any of the Poison-types in the tier, including Toxicroak and Muk. However, DynamicPunch already hits Steel types hard, which lessens Earthquake's potential. Ice Punch is a great coverage move, enabling Machoke to hit Pokemon like Venusaur, Nidoking, and Nidoqueen for big damage. For most sets, DynamicPunch is obviously the Fighting move of choice, but if one wishes for more power or if one is running a potential Guts set, Machoke does have access to Close Combat, Revenge, Superpower, and Cross Chop.

In terms of support moves, Scary Face is a viable move, and gives Machoke a way to severely cripple switch-ins who generally out-speed Machoke. Scary Face also works well in conjunction with Spikes and Stealth Rock, enabling Machoke to play the role of a Phazer with the numerous switches Scary Face will cause. Encore is a useful move in conjunction with Substitute, locking Pokemon attempting to set up on Machoke into their boosting or status move. Toxic is a great choice to harm Machoke's normal counters, including Slowbro, Slowking, and non-Rest variants of Spiritomb. It is important to note that Toxic will never miss, thanks to No Guard. The only useful boosting move Machoke receives is Bulk Up, which can be used to some effect in conjunction with DynamicPunch. However, a Bulk Up set is mostly outclassed by Hitmontop and Hariyama due to their higher offensive and defensive stats.

[COUNTERS]
Spiritomb is most likely the greatest threat to Machoke, being immune to his STAB attack and taking neutral damage from all other attacks. In return, he can Will-O-Wisp Machoke, making him near useless, or start setting up with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Slowbro and Slowking are a close second, both resisting his STAB attack, while their ability naturally prevents confusion. They can then fire off STAB Psychics to quickly dispatch of Machoke. Weezing shares similar resistances with Slowbro while having immense physical bulk and access to Will-O-Wisp. Venusaur can come in on Machoke relatively safely, although he will not like the confusion caused by DynamicPunch nor a hit from Ice Punch. He can then put Machoke to sleep and set up or use Leech Seed.

Machoke suffers from incredibly low Speed. This can be taken advantage of by numerous offensive switch-ins, like Moltres and Alakazam. However, there are very few Pokemon that like switching into one of Machoke's DynamicPunches, so keep this in mind.

Garganator · Apr 16, 2010

Spiritomb only fears neutral Paybacks, and Slowbro fears ThunderPunch.

Little nitpick. Max/Max Def Bold Spiritomb takes from Payback... 17-20% (with Choice Band), as it's slower then Machoke. True, on switch it'll hit with 100 base power, however small base HP of Spiritomb and solid 80 of Machoke makes Pain Split usefull here and heal enough HP points to help Spiritomb wins this 1on1 (heal and WoW it). And I'm sure that max HP tomb can't be 2OHKOed even when hit on switch with CB Payback and again after this.

And about Slowbro - Max HP/Max Def Slowbro can't faint in two hits by CB ThunderPunch from... Machamp. So with Machoke it's even more obvious.

In other words those two are hard counters as Machoke can't threaten them. I think rewording this sentence would be a good idea ;).

DarkSlay · Apr 18, 2010

Garganator said:
Little nitpick. Max/Max Def Bold Spiritomb takes from Payback... 17-20% (with Choice Band), as it's slower then Machoke. True, on switch it'll hit with 100 base power, however small base HP of Spiritomb and solid 80 of Machoke makes Pain Split usefull here and heal enough HP points to help Spiritomb wins this 1on1 (heal and WoW it). And I'm sure that max HP tomb can't be 2OHKOed even when hit on switch with CB Payback and again after this.

And about Slowbro - Max HP/Max Def Slowbro can't faint in two hits by CB ThunderPunch from... Machamp. So with Machoke it's even more obvious.

In other words those two are hard counters as Machoke can't threaten them. I think rewording this sentence would be a good idea ;).

Duly noted. Yeah, the "fears" statement is a little bit exagerated. I'll go change that sentence. Thanks!

Komodo · Apr 18, 2010

DrkSlay said:
[Overview]
Machoke may not be as strong as its OU counterpart Machamp, but its blend of a base 100 Attack stat and decent 80/70/60 defenses provide it the tools it needs to succeed in the UU metagame. Machoke's ability, No Guard, along with DynamicPunch sets it leagues apart from other Fighting-types in the UU metagame, and its unique (albeit narrow) movepool makes it an optimal choice as a lead in the tier. For pure power from the get-go and from an outstanding anti set-up lead, Machoke is a force to be reckoned with.

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Rock Slide / Payback
move 3: Bullet Punch
move 4: Protect
item: Focus Sash
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe

[Set Comments]

Instead of focusing on setting up hazards, Machoke's purpose as a lead is to prevent the use of such hazards by its opponents, while taking out their lead at the same time. DynamicPunch is the major pull to use Machoke as a lead, which not only hits anything that doesn't resist it for major damage, but also guarantees confusion on slower leads like Omastar and Rhyperior. Confusion is what makes Machoke such a great anti set-up lead, either giving your opponent a 50% chance of getting up Stealth Rock or Spikes, or forcing your opponent to switch, thus preventing hazards from hitting the field. The second option comes down to which popular lead your team wants to OHKO more: Moltres or Alakazam. Both choices, however, hit the popular Froslass lead for large damage. Bullet Punch may seem trivial, but in actuality, it's one of the most important moves on Machoke, making it one of the best Froslass lead counters in the metagame. It also deals with other Focus Sash leads, and often turns 3HKOs and 4HKOs to pseudo-2HKOs and 3HKOs. Protect rounds out the set, making Machoke defeat the popular Fake Out users of UU: Ambipom, Persian, and Kangaskhan. It also doubles as a scouting method, effectively dealing with leads it cannot deal with its attacking moves, like Alakazam, Moltres, and TrickBand Spiritomb.

[Additional Comments]

A choice needs to be made between Rock Slide and Payback. Rock Slide, the Rock-based choice for the Stone Edge-less Machoke, deals with Moltres for a guaranteed OHKO, also hitting Bug- and Flying-types of UU for super effective damage, which include Scyther, Swellow, and Venemoth. Payback, on the other hand, guarantees a win against Alakazam leads. Payback also hits Rotom and Mismagius switch-ins for OHKOs, it also has a higher Base Power than Rock Slide, unless against a slower opponent, which is unlikely. The choice should also depends on your own team, and determining what opposing Leads will give the entire team trouble in the long run.

Focus Sash is necessary to survive a Psychic from Alakazam, and an Air Slash from Moltres without getting OHKOed, and OHKO back. However, It's possible to run a Lum Berry to prevent and OHKO any Ghost (bar Spiritomb) trying to burn you with Will-O-Wisp. A type-Resist Berry is also acceptable, letting Machoke survive Psychic or Air Slash with more HP than Focus Sash allows, but note that Focus Sash still beats both leads effectively.

As for other moveset options on a Lead Machoke, it is possible to drop Protect altogether, placing Payback and Rock Slide on the same set, to deal with both potential Moltres and Alakazam leads. However, Ambipom can 2HKO you with Fake Out + Return, and can use switches against Machoke to lessen Machoke's role in the match. Machoke also loses its ability to scout other leads and movesets of switch-ins.

Many will compare and contrast Lead Machoke with Lead Hariyama. However, while both have similar move sets, Machoke is superior in terms of preventing Stealth Rock from being set up. Machoke hits most of the slower Pokemon for 2HKOs, even defensive based Pokemon like Cloyster and Regirock, while the only OHKO Hariyama can score without Stealth Rock being set up is Omastar. Hariyama has no chance to prevent Stealth Rock from the other bulky leads, unlike Machoke. DynamicPunch is one of the more obvious reasons as well, providing a 100 Base Power STAB attack that causes guaranteed confusion as opposed to lowering Defense and Special Defense at the cost of a slightly stronger attack. While Hariyama has the potential to run a Rock move, it generally doesn't. It doesn't have access No Guard as an ability either, which guarantees a hit with the normally untrustworthy Rock Slide (or Stone Edge, for Hariyama's sake). Hariyama also cannot beat Alakazam or Moltres leads with Leftovers as its item.

The EV's are designed to give Machoke as much Attacking power as possible, while outrunning certain leads(maybe give an example) to prevent Stealth Rock being set up. With an Adamant nature and 252 Attack EVs, Machoke hits a respectable 328 Attack stat, more than enough to provide massive damage to opposing leads and switch-ins. 100 Speed EVs allow it to outrun all lead Hariyama by one point, as well as anything slower than Rhyperior (including Omastar, Regirock, Donphan, Rhyperior, and other slow leads). The remaining EVs are dumped into HP in order for Machoke to take weaker neutral hits better.

Machoke will have immense problems against Spiritomb leads, in which it can do very little. Machoke also has trouble against Uxie and Mesprit leads because of their Speed, although Mesprit is 2HKOed by Payback, and Uxie is 4HKOed by three Paybacks and a Bullet Punch. Uxie, Mesprit, Kabutops, and Donphan are the only leads in which Machoke cannot prevent Stealth Rock from being set. Donphan, however, is slower, but has immense Defensive bulk to survive two or three DynamicPunches. The other three simply out-speed Machoke. For these reasons, pairing Machoke with a Spiritomb is often the best choice to deal with the leads Machoke cannot beat, successfully countering each Pokemon with its bulk and support-based movepool. Chansey, Registeel and Milotic also make fine partners to combat powerful special attackers like Moltres and Alakazam, when Machoke lacks the appropriate move.

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Payback
move 3: Rock Slide/Fire Punch
move 4: Ice Punch/ThunderPunch
item: Choice Band
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

[Set Comments]
At first glance, this set would seem like an inferior Choice Band Hariyama set. In some parts, it is. However, with No Guard and DynamicPunch, Machoke has the ability to hit opponents with a better Fighting attack, albeit with less power than Close Combat. With a Choice Band, Machoke's Attack hits 492, which is a very good stat to fire off STAB DynamicPunches from. Payback is to hit Ghost-types that may get in the way. Similarly to Hariyama, the last two moveslots can be filled with a combination of two of the four moves listed. They all have 75 Base Power, and hit similar threats. Rock Slide and Fire Punch nail the Bug-types that can switch in, like Scyther. Rock Slide hits Flying-types harder, while Fire Punch hits Toxicroak harder. Ice Punch hits opposing Ground-types for big damage, although DynamicPunch is generally the preferred move. ThunderPunch also hits Flying-types and bulky Waters for decent damage, including Slowbro.

[Additional Comments]
It is possible to run a Guts set with Close Combat as Machoke's STAB move, raising Machoke's Attack stat by a huge margin. However, this combination is better abused by Hariyama. Machoke is distinctly different from Hariyama at this role as a Choice Band user because of No Guard and DynamicPunch.

There is no better counter to this set than either Spiritomb or Slowbro, who both have high Defense and a key immunity or resistance to DynamicPunch and confusion. Spiritomb can only be slightly touched by Payback, and Slowbro is 3HKOed by ThunderPunch. Adding a Substitute Raikou or another Calm Mind user to the team could be greatly beneficial here, as they can easily set up on most Spiritomb and all Slowbro. Spiritomb itself is also a good partner for Choice Band Machoke, taking little or no damage from moves directed at Machoke, especially Psychic.

[Team Options]
As a Lead, both Offensive Pokemon and Walls appreciate the lack of Stealth Rock Machoke can cause. Pokemon like Raikou, Alakazam, and Moltres, and such can easily take advantage of no Stealth Rock and minimal Spikes out on the field. Defensively, Registeel and Chansey can come in and set up Rocks for practically free because of the multitude of Psychic / Flying special attacks Machoke tends to draw in. Dugtrio is also a decent choice as a partner for the Lead set, being able to trap and kill weakened leads and switch-ins Machoke causes. As a Choice Band user, someone that can take advantage of physical walls switching in work well. Raikou once again, Alakazam, and other powerful special attackers can set up on a lot of Pokemon that come in on Machoke. Ghosts in general can be taken care of by powerful Pursuit users, including Absol, Drapion, and Skuntank.

[Optional Changes]
Offensively, Earthquake on the Band set could prove useful against any of the Poison-types in the tier, including Toxicroak and Muk. For most sets, DynamicPunch is obviously the Fighting move of choice, but if one wishes for more power or if one is running a Guts set, Machoke does have access to Close Combat, Revenge, Superpower, and Cross Chop. The only useful boosting move Machoke receives is Bulk Up, which can be used to some efficiency in conjunction with DynamicPunch. However, this is mostly outclassed by Hitmontop and Hariyama in terms of power. Machoke does get access to No Guard Fire Blast, but there are few Pokemon hit hard by this move in the UU tier as compared to DynamicPunch, save Venusaur and other Grass-types. Toxic can be run on gimmick sets to surprise the physical walls that switch in, but has little use outside of this purpose.

[Counters]
Spiritomb is most likely Machoke's greatest threat, being immune to its STAB attack and taking neutral damage from all other attacks. In return, it can Will-O-Wisp Machoke, making it useless, or start setting up with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Slowbro is a close second, resisting its STAB attack, while its ability prevents confusion. It can then fire off STAB Psychic to quickly dispatch of Machoke. Venusaur can come in on Machoke relatively safely, although it will not like the Confusion. It can then put it to Sleep and set up or Leech Seed.

Outside of the Lead position, Machoke suffers from incredibly low Speed. This can be taken advantage of by numerous Offensive switch-ins, like Moltres, Raikou, and the like. However, very little like switching into one of Machoke's boosted moves, so keep this in mind.

Removals in red, changes in bold

You may want to mention Foresight to hit Ghost-types with DynamicPunch.

Stellar · Apr 18, 2010

I would remove the reference to Persian Fake Out in the lead set. It isn't common enough to warrant mention. While Rock Slide does hit Swellow and Scyther for super effective damage, you would have to predict the switch-in and be at 100% health for it to be of any use. For that reason, you should at least mention that your Focus Sash must be intact for Machoke to post a threat to Scyther, Swellow, or Moltres. Even in that case, Swellow will be taking the same amount of damage from DynamicPunch as it would from Rock Slide. DynamicPunch even has the added bonus of causing confusion. Scyther and Swellow can also just U-turn against Machoke, which breaks its Focus Sash and allows your opponent to switch into something more suited to countering Machoke. You should be focusing the comments more on Rock Slide's utility against foes that Machoke can stay in against instead of making more generalized statements.

Payback does not OHKO bulky Rotom variants who only take 55.9% - 66.4% from Payback. It can then burn you, survive the next Payback (28.3% - 33.6% when burned), and then stall you out with Rest.

Protect's utility against Trick choice item leads should also be mentioned. You can protect on the first turn if you believe that Uxie will try to trick a Choice Scarf onto you.

Your paragraph on why Machoke is superior to Hariyama is complete poppycock. Hariyama has 5 more base Speed than Machoke and 20 more base Attack. Any OHKOes that Machoke can achieve, Hariyama can also. If Hariyama chose to, it could also run a similar Speed investment allowing it to, at worst, tie with Machoke. The only way that Machoke can prevent Stealth Rock from being set-up is if it gets lucky with confusion. Even then, the only commonly used leads that are slower than Machoke that set up Stealth Rock are Regirock (who isn't even 2hkoed by DynamicPunch if it is carrying Leftovers, 45.1% - 53.3%), Rhyperior (see Regirock), Registeel (who is not OHKOed), and Omastar (who is not OHKOed). Pretty much, this entire paragraph makes no sense at all.

Fire Punch should most likely be removed. DynamicPunch 2hkoes Toxicroak anyway (51.6% - 60.7%). You need to change the generalized reasoning for the coverage moves to explain what Pokémon those attacks would actually be used for. ThunderPunch would be used to hit Slowking, Slowbro, and Qwilfish. Ice Punch would be used to hit Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Claydol, and Venusaur. All other Water-types and Ground-types are hit just as hard by STAB DynamicPunch. The reference to ThunderPunch's use against Flying-types is also pretty bunk. Ice Punch is going to be more useful and is generally better coverage-wise than ThunderPunch. ThunderPunch's use against Flying-types is limited to Moltres. The only other Flying-type that is somewhat commonly used that is neutral to Ice Punch is Articuno, which takes as much damage from DynamicPunch as it would from ThunderPunch.

I'm also going to disagree with the suggestion to include Foresight. On any set where you are using Foresight, you should probably just be using Payback instead of wasting two turns to hit with a less-powerful attack (Payback's 200 super effective Base Power compared to DynamicPunch's 150 with STAB). The only use it would have would be against Spiritomb. Even in that case, you would have to predict the switch-in for it to be effective. Otherwise, Spiritomb will just burn you on the turn that you use Foresight.

Fuzznip · Apr 18, 2010

I think you should mention Encore somewhere on this analysis, probably OC. I've actually used a Substitute/Encore/DynamicPunch/Ice Punch set to some good effect, so you can probably mention that in the OC. Or, you can test it out and maybe include it in the analysis (maybe just a Substitute + 3 Attacks set?).

DarkSlay · Apr 18, 2010

@ Komodo:

Thanks for the edits! I'll include them straight away.

@ Stellar:

More or less, Persian was just an example of a Fake Out lead that Protect works against, but usage is a valid point. As for Scyther, while I was playtesting Machoke, I ran into quite a number of Lead Scyther. I know this isn't close to a Top 10 lead (obviously), but paired with Focus Sash, Rock Slide works the same way as with Moltres to Scyther and Air Slash. Keep in mind the reccomended Focus Sash as a lead. Scyther cannot simply switch in and Air Slash you for the OHKO, even if you mispredict. Machoke would have to take damage of some sort. Swellow, though, is correct. I'll go change that. I actually had something about Bulky Rotom in my original draft, but I must have copied and pasted the pre-corrected statement. Good catch. I actually was hoping for some sort of feedback on the Choice Band set, so thanks. I'll go make some of those changes straight away. Thanks for your comments!

EDIT: I'll edit this post to reflect your new comments, to save space.

The paragraph on Hariyama does seem a bit extraneous to the overall description, so I am thinking of cutting it shorter or simply cutting it out. However, I never said Hariyama was worse than Machoke overall. The only comparison statement was for preventing Stealth Rock from being set up. While the 50/50 chance of setting up Stealth Rock may seem like a gamble and unworthy to you, the fact that it is somewhat of a gamble does not take make its purpose any less. Confusion is confusion, and if it prevents slower leads from setting up (however unreliable it is), then it's a prime factor in my book. The paragraph was supposed to illustrate this advantage, not "Machoke is a better Pokemon than Hariyama." I felt it was important to address this point, as both run similar sets. Will Machoke score more OHKO's? No. Is it faster/stronger than Hariyama? No. However, because of the certain set Machoke runs, plus its access to DynamicPunch, Machoke can be considered superior in terms of preventing Stealth Rock from being placed by slower, Bulkier Pokemon. Not in terms of being the "better Pokemon overall." The Trick comment will be added.

I get the point on Toxicroak, so I will be removing Fire Punch unless someone brings up a Poke that needs it (although, it might be useful if one does not want Ice Punch for Venusaur, but little use after that). I'll place an emphasis on those two Punches as well.

@ Fuzznip:

I'll go ahead and add Encore to the OC for now. However, I'll take some time these next few days to test it and see if it works as an independent set. Thanks!

Stellar · Apr 18, 2010

Just letting you know that I am constantly updating my post to reflect issues I have. Most of the stuff you addressed was changed in my post. Keep checking back as I make progress.

DarkSlay · Apr 19, 2010

OP updated! It now includes a Substitute + Three Attacks analysis (which needs proofreading). I have also eliminated some clutter in the other two descriptions, making it more concise. Thanks!

Forbidden To Starve · Apr 19, 2010

DynamicPunch is the major pull to use Machoke as a lead

Should be "DynamicPunch is the major pull to using Machoke as a lead." Honestly.

Forbidden To Starve · Apr 19, 2010

Sorry for double-post.

Substitue is a perfect fit for Machoke

*Substitute. Yes, correcting typos is the lowest form of grammar correction.

It also doubles as a scouting method, effectively dealing with leads it cannot deal with its attacking moves, like Alakazam, Moltres, and Trick users.

Should be "It also doubles as a scouting method, effectively dealing with leads it cannot deal with using its attacking moves, like Alakazam, Moltres and Trick users.

Rock Slide deals with Moltres for a guaranteed OHKO , also hitting Bug- and Flying-types of UU for super effective damage

Your comma. "Rock Slide deals with Moltres for a guaranteed OHKO, also hitting Bug- and Flying-types of UU for super effective damage."

The EV's are designed to give Machoke as much Attacking power as possible

Shouldn't be an apostrophe, and 'Attacking' should not be capitalized. "The EVs are designed to give Machoke as much attacking power as possible."

The other three simply out-speed Machoke.

No hyphen, as per guidelines on this site. "The other three simply outspeed Machoke."

including Spiritomb's and Rotom's Will O' Wisp

The move is 'Will-O-Wisp'. "including Spiritomb's and Rotom's Will-O-Wisp"

hitting the Nido's and Venusaur for a good deal of damage as well as Flying-type Pokemon for Super Effective damage.

Super effective is neither hyphenated nor capitalized, and Nido is a plural, not a belonging. "hitting the Nidos and Venusaur for a good deal of damage as well as Flying-type Pokémon for super effective damage.

More later. I'll update this post. God, how I love grunt work. These changes aren't in your first post so I assume they haven't been made so correct me if I'm wrong.

DarkSlay · Apr 27, 2010

I've updated Starve's edits. I currently need proofreading done on the Substitute and Three Attacks set, and then some feedback on the analysis as a whole so we can consider this a candidate for an on-site addition.

Darkmalice · Apr 29, 2010

Instead of focusing on setting up hazards, Machoke's purpose as a lead is to prevent the use of such hazards by its opponents , while taking out their lead at the same time.

Seeing how confusion only stops slower leads 50% of the time (and that's only if Machoke can 2HKO them (Rhyperior, Regirock, and Donphan are not 2HKOed), Bulky Froslass survives Payback + Bullet Punch, and many entry hazard leads are faster than Machoke (Uxie, Cloyster, Mespirit, and more), this couldn't be further from the truth. It doesn't do a good job at stopping hazards, and there are better choices in terms of Pokemon who can (cough Electrode). Out of the top 10 leads, 4 set up entry hazards, and only Omastar has a 50% chance of setting up no hazards. At best, you might force Suicide Froslass and Cloyster out as well, though they do have the option of getting at least one layer of Spikes up guaranteed. This phrase should be redone.

Xia · Apr 29, 2010

In order for your set comments and additional comments to show up correctly, you have to capitalize all of the letters so they read [SET COMMENTS] and [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS].

Demoness · Apr 29, 2010

Protect rounds out the set, making Machoke defeat the popular Fake Out users of UU, like Ambipom and Kangaskhan. It also doubles as a scouting method, effectively dealing with leads it cannot deal with using its attacking moves, like Alakazam, Moltres, and Trick users.

It should " allowing Machoke to" in place of " making".

Instead of focusing on setting up hazards, Machoke's purpose as a lead is to prevent the use of such hazards by its opponents ,

The comma should be right next to opponents

Machoke can Encore Spiritomb into a boosting move or Will O' Wisp

It's Will-O-Wisp.

A choice needs to be made between Rock Slide and Payback. Rock Slide hits Moltres for a guaranteed OHKO, while also hitting Bug- and Flying-types of UU for super effective damage

It should be " while also hitting the Bug- and Flying-types of UU for super effective damage".

In some sense,
-----
The S shouldn't be bolded

Machoke does get access to Fire Blast, but there are few Pokemon hit hard by this move in the UU tier as compared to DynamicPunch, save Venusaur and other Grass-types.

What point would there be in running Fire Blast when neturel Psychical moves hit those grass types harder? Considering that Machoke will want to run either Adamant, Fire Blast would be usless. You shoul get rid of any mention of it.

I'll Edit any other things needed to be changed in this post if i find them

Snorlaxe · Apr 29, 2010

DrkSlay said:
[Overview]
Machoke may not be as strong as its OU counterpart Machamp, but its blend of a base 100 Attack stat and decent 80/70/60 defenses provide it with the tools it needs to succeed in the UU metagame. Machoke's ability, No Guard, along with DynamicPunch sets it apart from other Fighting-types in the UU metagame, and its unique (albeit narrow) movepool makes it an optimal choice as a lead.

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Rock Slide / Payback
move 3: Bullet Punch
move 4: Protect
item: Focus Sash / Lum Berry
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe

[Set Comments]

Instead of focusing on setting up hazards, Machoke's purpose as a lead is to prevent the use of such hazards by its opponents, while taking out their lead at the same time. DynamicPunch is the major pull to using Machoke as a lead, which not only hits any Pokemon who doesn't resist it for major damage, but also guarantees confusion on slower leads like Omastar and Rhyperior. Confusion is what makes Machoke such a great anti-lead, either giving your opponent a 50% chance of getting up Stealth Rock or Spikes, or forcing your opponent to switch, thus preventing hazards from being set up.

The second option comes down to which popular lead your team wants to OHKO: Moltres or Alakazam. Both choices, however, hit the popular Froslass lead for large damage. Bullet Punch may seem trivial, but it's one of the most important moves on Machoke, making it one of the best Froslass lead counters in the metagame. It also deals with other Focus Sash leads, and often turns 3HKOs and 4HKOs into 2HKOs and 3HKOs. Protect rounds out the set, making Machoke defeat the popular Fake Out users of UU, like Ambipom and Kangaskhan. It also doubles as a scouting method, effectively dealing with leads it cannot deal with using its attacking moves, like Alakazam, Moltres, and Trick users.

[Additional Comments]

A choice needs to be made between Rock Slide and Payback. Rock Slide hits Moltres for a guaranteed OHKO, while also hitting Bug- and Flying-types of UU for super effective damage, which includes Scyther, Swellow, and Venemoth. Note that Machoke must be at full health to deal with the majority of these switch-ins, so that Machoke can use its Focus Sash to survive a OHKO. Payback, on the other hand, guarantees a win against Alakazam leads. Payback also hits non-bulky variants of Rotom and Mismagius for OHKOs, and it also has a higher Base Power than Rock Slide. The choice also depends on your own team, and determining what opposing leads will give the team trouble in the long run.

Focus Sash is necessary to survive Psychic from Alakazam and Air Slash from Moltres without getting OHKOed. It's possible to run a Lum Berry to prevent and OHKO any Ghost (bar Spiritomb) trying to burn you with Will-O-Wisp. A type-resist Berry is also acceptable, letting Machoke survive Psychic or Air Slash with more HP than Focus Sash allows, but note that Focus Sash still beats both leads effectively.

As for other moveset options on Lead Machoke, it is possible to drop Protect altogether, placing Payback and Rock Slide on the same set, to deal with both potential Moltres and Alakazam leads. However, Ambipom can 2HKO you with Fake Out + Return, and can use switches to lessen Machoke's role in the match. Machoke also loses its ability to scout other leads and movesets of switch-ins, as well as its ability to scout Trick and the rare Switcheroo users.

The EVs are designed to give Machoke as much attacking power as possible, while outrunning certain leads and tanks to prevent Stealth Rock from being set up. With an Adamant nature and 252 Attack EVs, Machoke hits a respectable 328 Attack stat, more than enough to provide massive damage to opposing leads and switch-ins. 100 Speed EVs allow it to outrun all lead Hariyama by one point, as well as any Pokemon slower than Rhyperior (including Omastar, Regirock, Donphan, and Registeel). The remaining EVs are dumped into HP in order for Machoke to take weak neutral hits better.

Machoke will have immense problems against Spiritomb leads, against which it can do very little. Machoke also has trouble against Uxie and Mesprit leads because of their Speed, although Mesprit is 2HKOed by Payback, and Uxie is 4HKOed by three Paybacks and a Bullet Punch. Uxie, Mesprit, Kabutops, and Donphan are the only leads whom Machoke cannot prevent Stealth Rock from. Donphan, however, is slower than Machoke, but has immense bulk to survive two or three DynamicPunches. The other three simply outspeed Machoke. For these reasons, pairing Machoke with a Spiritomb is often the best choice to deal with the leads Machoke cannot beat, successfully countering each Pokemon with its bulk and support-based movepool. Chansey, Registeel and Milotic also make fine partners to combat powerful special attackers like Moltres and Alakazam when Machoke lacks the appropriate move.

[SET]
name: Substitue + Three Attacks
move 1: Substitute
move 2: DynamicPunch
move 3: Payback
move 4: Ice Punch / Encore
item: Leftovers
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

[Set Comments]
Taking a nod from its OU counterpart Machamp, SubChoke can be very effective in the UU tier. Substitue is a perfect fit for Machoke, being able to scout the plethora of switches Machoke causes as well as prevent status from opposing switch-ins, including Spiritomb and Rotom's Will-O-Wisp and Venusaur's Sleep Powder. DynamicPunch plus No Guard is a huge selling point for the set as well, pairing with Substitute to guarantee a huge hit on any Pokemon who does not resist it.

Payback is reserved for the Ghosts and Psychics who will switch in, like Rotom, Mismagius, and Claydol. Ice Punch is optimal as a third attack, hitting Nidoking, Nidoqueen, and Venusaur for a good deal of damage as well as Flying-type Pokemon for super effective damage. Encore is also a good choice, however, trapping slower Pokemon into a status move or preventing switch-ins from boosting on Machoke.

[Additional Comments]
Unlike other sets, if Machoke choses Encore, Spiritomb becomes much less of a threat to Machoke. Machoke can Encore Spiritomb into a boosting move or Will-O-Wisp with impunity under a Substitute. However, Machoke cannot touch Spiritomb with its other attacks, so keep this in mind.

Slowbro is a major threat to this set in particular, being slower than Machoke and nailing it with a STAB Psychic. It also resists Machoke's STAB and is immune to confusion. Without Ice Punch, Venusaur essentially walls the set, resisting DynamicPunch and hitting Machoke with Earthquake, Power Whip, or Sludge Bomb. Without Encore, stat boosting sweepers can set up on Machoke without much worry, including Spiritomb and Curse users like Registeel, Regirock, and Quagsire. Having a strong special sweeper, like Raikou, Froslass, or Mismagius will greatly help aid Machoke with these matters.

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Payback
move 3: Ice Punch
move 4: ThunderPunch / Rock Slide
item: Choice Band
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

[Set Comments]
At first glance, this set would seem like an inferior Choice Band Hariyama set. In some sense, it is. However, with No Guard and DynamicPunch, Machoke has the ability to hit opponents with a better Fighting attack, albeit with less power than Close Combat, with guaranteed confusion. With a Choice Band, Machoke's Attack hits 492, which allows it to fire off very powerful STAB DynamicPunches. Payback is to hit Ghost-types who may get in the way, as well as Psychic-types like Claydol. Ice Punch is to hit the Ground-types who resist Machoke's STAB move, like the Nidos and Venusaur. ThunderPunch pairs well with Ice Punch, hitting Slowbro, Slowking, and Qwilfish harder than any other attack. Both options give you a method of dealing with Flying-types. Rock Slide can be an alternative to either one of the Punches, as it hits Flying-types as well and hits Bug-type Pokemon like Venomoth and Scyther hard.

[Additional Comments]
It is possible to run a Guts set with Close Combat as Machoke's STAB move, raising Machoke's Attack stat by a huge margin. However, this combination is better abused by Hariyama. Machoke is distinctly different from Hariyama at this role as a Choice Band user because of No Guard and DynamicPunch. [uh this paragraph seems kinda out of place?]

There is no better counter to this set than either Spiritomb or Slowbro, as both have high Defense and a key immunity or resistance to DynamicPunch and confusion. Spiritomb can only be slightly touched by Payback, and Slowbro is 3HKOed by ThunderPunch. Adding a Substitute Raikou or another Calm Mind user to the team could be greatly beneficial here, as they can easily set up on most Spiritomb and all Slowbro. Spiritomb itself is also a good partner for Choice Band Machoke, taking little or no damage from moves directed at Machoke, especially Psychic.

[Team Options]
As a lead, both offensive Pokemon and walls appreciate the lack of Stealth Rock Machoke can cause. Pokemon like Raikou, Alakazam, and Moltres can easily take advantage of no Stealth Rock and minimal Spikes on the field. Defensively, Registeel and Chansey can come in and set up Stealth Rock for practically free because of the multitude of Psychic / Flying special attacks Machoke tends to draw in. Dugtrio is also a decent partner for the Lead set, being able to trap and kill weakened leads and switch-ins Machoke causes. As a Choice Band user, Pokemon who can take advantage of physical walls switching in work well. Raikou, Alakazam, and other powerful special attackers can set up on a lot of Pokemon who come in on Machoke. Ghosts in general can be taken care of by powerful Pursuit users, including Absol, Drapion, and Skuntank.

[Optional Changes]
Offensively, Earthquake on the Choice Band set could prove useful against any of the Poison-types in the tier, including Toxicroak and Muk. For most sets, DynamicPunch is obviously the Fighting move of choice, but if one wishes for more power or if one is running a Guts set, Machoke does have access to Close Combat, Revenge, Superpower, and Cross Chop. The only useful boosting move Machoke receives is Bulk Up, which can be used to some efficiency in conjunction with DynamicPunch. However, a Bulk Up set is mostly outclassed by Hitmontop and Hariyama due to their power and bulk. Machoke does get access to Fire Blast, but there are few Pokemon hit hard by this move in the UU tier as compared to DynamicPunch, save Venusaur and other Grass-types. Toxic can be run on gimmick sets to surprise physical walls who switch in, but has little use outside of this purpose.

[Counters]
Spiritomb is most likely Machoke's greatest threat, being immune to its STAB attack and taking neutral damage from all other attacks. In return, it can Will-O-Wisp Machoke, making it useless, or start setting up with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Slowbro is a close second, resisting its STAB attack, while its ability prevents confusion. It can then fire off STAB Psychic to quickly dispatch of Machoke. Venusaur can come in on Machoke relatively safely, although it will not like the confusion caused by DynamicPunch. It can then put it to sleep and set up or Leech Seed.

Outside of the Lead position, Machoke suffers from incredibly low Speed. This can be taken advantage of by numerous offensive switch-ins, like Moltres, Raikou, and the like. However, very little like switching into one of Machoke's boosted moves, so keep this in mind.

Looks cool. Something I think you could add in Optional Changes is Scary Face; I can see it having potential use if only for the ability to kill the switch-in's Speed. It could also be especially cool with Spikes and Stealth Rock support.

DarkSlay · Apr 29, 2010

@ Darkmalice:

Bulky Froslass is pretty uncommon as a lead compared to the Suicide Lead set, to be honest, but your point is valid. However, Payback does 2HKO (or at least 3HKO with Bullet Punch on rare occasions) Bulky variants. That means a maximum of two layers of Spikes are going up. No more. It's not great, but it's not the worst scenario either, especially considering what Froslass could potentially set up on. And in order to get up these two layers, they are inevitably sacrificing Bulky Froslass in the process, thus eliminating their spin blocker (unless it's a two Ghost team). And according to March statistics, only one out of the top 10 leads can set up SR successfully, while two can set up one layer of Spikes (albeit Suicide Froslass only sets up one, and Cloyster has a maximum of two). Out of the top 10 leads, Machoke has the potential to beat Froslass, Ambipom, Moltres (potentially), Electrode, Cloyster, Alakazam (potentially), Omastar, and Hariyama. It only loses to Uxie and Spiritomb. If we delve into the Top 15, two more can set up SR without much hassle. That's about it. So, out of the top 15 leads so far, three can set up SR without hassle (albeit Kabutops and Mesprit cannot do so without either being 2HKO'd in the process or without setting up SR), and two can set up a minimum amount of Spikes. That's not bad at all, to be honest. I think the wording is pretty spot-on. As far as other better leads, Electrode is a fast Taunt user. Is it going to be 2HKO'ing Leads in the process? No. They play different roles as leads. Machoke can prevent hazards while killing off leads. Electrode is a Rain Dance lead. It's hard to compare the two.

Thanks for the comments, nonetheless! I might include something about Bulky Froslass, unless I feel it's a little bit cluttering.

@ Xia:

Not a problem. That will be fixed. Thanks!

@ Berserker:

Thanks! Your edits will be made.

@ Snorlaxe:

This really helped! Thanks a bunch, bud. I'll edit the OP ASAP.

Darkmalice · Apr 30, 2010

I'm not questioning the match-ups that Machoke has against the leads (they're fairly good actually). Rather, Machoke technically can't stop most leads from setting up entry hazards, but they lose a big chunk of their health if they do, with most bar Uxie taking a lot of damage in the process and risking DynamicPunch confusion the next turn (bar Mespirit and Bulky Froslass if you have Payback).

Could we then rephrase the sentence to something along the lines of this:
Instead of focusing on setting up hazards, Machoke's purpose as a lead is to threaten the opposing the lead with brute force and DynamicPunch's confusion rate. Machoke can take a huge chunk out of leads that set up entry hazards and limit the number of entry hazards they can set up, weakening them to the put where they can be finished off easily.

I would recommend a Rapid Spinner in Team Options, as with entry hazard set uppers weakened and hopefully eliminated quickly, once you Spin away their hazards, they won't be able to set them up again. You could then go on to say that you can pair the two with Moltres and Scyther, who really appreciate Stealth Rock being removed from the field. However, this last sentence isn't necessary, and it might make the analysis too long.

On a further note, I would have Payback as the main option over Rock Slide for the aforementioned leads and Uxie as well. Rock Slide will only be useful against Moltres leads, and even then, it's not a guaranteed answer thanks to Air Slash's flinch rate or U-turn and scout for a switch. A lot of the Pokemon you would use Rock Slide you would have to hit on the switch-in, and Rock Slide doesn't do much damage to most Pokemon that aren't weak to it, especially compared to DynamicPunch and Payback (and a x2 Rock Slide deals equal damage to DynamicPunch). Payback would be better for scouting for switch-ins, as your opponent is more likely to bring in a Pokemon immune to DynamicPunch than one who isn't and risks a 50% chance of failing to hit Machoke.

DarkSlay · May 1, 2010

@ Darkmalice:

Ah, I see your point now. Your suggested correction is perfect! I don't mind that at all being a change. I'll replace that sentence ASAP. Thanks!

Rapid Spinners for team options is a good idea. That section is somewhat lacking in terms of possibilities anyway. I'll add a section in for Donphan and Claydol and such. Thanks!

Actually, to be honest, I very much prefer Payback over Rock Slide. That's my own personal choice. However, most of the people whom I have shown this set to (before and after C&C) swear by Rock Slide. I didn't want to place priority on either move as a result (I wanted people to see Payback/Rock Slide having equal priority as Rock Slide/Payback) and I wanted the description to highlight this 50/50 choice, but in terms of what I feel is better suited for Machoke, it's Payback. I just don't want any more Rock Slide supporters hounding over me in the process of switching Payback to the first spot. XD I'll make that change.

Thanks a ton! I appreciate all of your help with this C&C.

breh · May 8, 2010

Sorry if this is unrelated, but wouldn't this be better as a lead in NU? Hitmontop does this better in UU, IMO (with higher defensive stats barring HP, a higher BP stab move (the lack of confusion is unfortunate, though), rapid spin, foresight, and multiple priority moves, some of which hit harder with technician).

Otherwise, froslass and raikou have been recently voted BL. Thus, you should probably remove references to them.

Oh and it should be noted that if you go up against a moltres lead, you've got a 30% chance for your machoke to die in vain.

DarkSlay · May 12, 2010

Breludicolo said:
Sorry if this is unrelated, but wouldn't this be better as a lead in NU? Hitmontop does this better in UU, IMO (with higher defensive stats barring HP, a higher BP stab move (the lack of confusion is unfortunate, though), rapid spin, foresight, and multiple priority moves, some of which hit harder with technician).

Well, not exactly. While it would make a fine lead for NU play, there really isn't an official NU metagame currently. All analysis pages should involve either the Uber, OU, or UU Tiers in regards to opponents and such (obviously Machoke's only going to be in the UU metagame and nothing higher), although I have included some NU Pokes in the analysis as well. If you can think of a few NU Pokes that are prominent threats against Machoke (note that I mean "wall" and not "give it kind of a hard time" threats) I'll happily include a few more. Hitmontop lacks No Guard and DynamicPunch, which is one of the primary reasons to use LeadChoke. While you've pointed out that they're both Fighting types and have the same STAB, you also pointed out the differences between the two, which is why a LeadTop set would play leagues differently than a LeadChoke. Similar STAB and identical typing doesn't mean both leads will accomplish the same role, after all. In this sense, Machoke is not outclassed by Hitmontop.

Otherwise, froslass and raikou have been recently voted BL. Thus, you should probably remove references to them.

Yeah, I'm off to do that. The loss of Froslass is actually a little bit disheartening (LeadChoke was specifically designed to beat it)but LeadChoke still manages to beat a lot of other leads anyway. Raikou merely takes out a team possibility to pair with Machoke, so that shouldn't be a huge deal. Thanks for the heads up!

Oh and it should be noted that if you go up against a moltres lead, you've got a 30% chance for your machoke to die in vain.

I've discussed this in the RMT that I introduced LeadChoke in: "flinch hax" is unintentional and extremely rare, and therefore Moltres shouldn't be "hard to handle" because of this small chance, nor should it be included in the analysis. However, if a lot of people feel like this is important enough to put in, I'll place it in

Thanks for the help!

DarkSlay · May 31, 2010

Analysis is updated after the post-Raikou/Froslass shift! I've also changed a few things about the Band and Sub set.

I'm going to be posting some battle logs that exhibit Machoke's usefulness, just to clarify some of my points (and to hopefully garner some support to use it):

LeadChoke:

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Testnut sent out Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
inky13112 sent out Cloyster (lvl 100 Cloyster ?).
Cloyster used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's super effective!
Cloyster lost 72% of its health.
Cloyster became confused!
---
Cloyster is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Cloyster lost 9% of its health.
Machoke used Payback.
Cloyster lost 20% of its health.
inky13112's Cloyster fainted.
---
inky13112 switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Milotic used Hydro Pump.
Machoke lost 100% of its health.
Machoke hung on using its Focus Sash!
Milotic lost 10% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Milotic lost 64% of its health.
Milotic became confused!
---
Milotic is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Milotic lost 7% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Milotic lost 20% of its health.
inky13112's Milotic fainted.
---
inky13112 switched in Porygon2 (lvl 100 Porygon2).
Porygon2 traced Machoke's No Guard!
Porygon2 used Thunderbolt.
Machoke lost 0% of its health.
Testnut's Machoke fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Skuntank (lvl 100 Skuntank ?).
Skuntank was hurt by Spikes!
Skuntank lost 12% of its health.
Skuntank used Taunt.
Porygon2 fell for the taunt!
Porygon2 used Thunder Wave.
Porygon2 can't use Thunder Wave after the taunt!
Skuntank's leftovers restored its health a little!
Skuntank restored 6% of its health.
---
Skuntank used Explosion.
Porygon2 lost 100% of its health.
inky13112's Porygon2 fainted.
Testnut's Skuntank fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Donphan (lvl 100 Donphan ?).
inky13112 switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Donphan was hurt by Spikes!
Donphan lost 12% of its health.
Venusaur used Energy Ball.
It's super effective!
Donphan lost 88% of its health.
Testnut's Donphan fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Houndoom was hurt by Spikes!
Houndoom lost 12% of its health.
Houndoom used Nasty Plot.
Houndoom's special attack was sharply raised.
Venusaur used Sleep Powder.
Houndoom fell asleep!
---
Houndoom is fast asleep!
Venusaur used Leech Seed.
Houndoom was seeded!
Houndoom's health was sapped by leech seed!
Houndoom lost 12% of its health.
Venusaur regained health!
---
inky13112 switched in Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
Houndoom woke up!
Houndoom used Fire Blast.
Mismagius lost 100% of its health.
inky13112's Mismagius fainted.
Houndoom lost 10% of its health.
---
inky13112 switched in Feraligatr (lvl 100 Feraligatr ?).
Houndoom used Dark Pulse.
Feraligatr lost 100% of its health.
inky13112's Feraligatr fainted.
Houndoom lost 10% of its health.
---
inky13112 switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Houndoom used Fire Blast.
It's super effective!
Venusaur lost 100% of its health.
inky13112's Venusaur fainted.
Testnut wins!
Testnut: gg
inky13112 has left the room.

Machoke successfully takes out the Cloyster lead while only allowing one layer of Spikes to be set. It then utilizes its Focus Sash and Confusion to eliminate an Offensive (or Tank) Milotic, showcasing it effectiveness once it has accomplished its job. It also opened up a sweep for my Houndoom.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Testnut sent out Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
jugarap sent out Pinsir (lvl 100 Pinsir ?).
Pinsir used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Pinsir lost 30% of its health.
Pinsir became confused!
---
jugarap switched in Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
Machoke used Payback.
It's super effective!
Mismagius lost 100% of its health.
jugarap's Mismagius fainted.
---
jugarap switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
jugarap switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 36% of its health.
Venusaur became confused!
---
Venusaur is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Venusaur lost 13% of its health.
Machoke used Payback.
Venusaur lost 42% of its health.
---
Machoke used Bullet Punch.
Venusaur lost 9% of its health.
jugarap's Venusaur fainted.
---
jugarap switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Milotic used Hydro Pump.
Machoke lost 100% of its health.
Machoke hung on using its Focus Sash!
Milotic lost 10% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Milotic lost 49% of its health.
Milotic became confused!
---
Milotic is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Milotic lost 5% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Milotic lost 36% of its health.
jugarap's Milotic fainted.
---
jugarap switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Houndoom used Fire Blast.
Machoke lost 0% of its health.
Testnut's Machoke fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Pointed stones dug into Milotic.
Milotic lost 12% of its health.
jugarap switched in Aggron (lvl 100 Aggron ?).
Milotic used Surf.
It's super effective!
Aggron lost 100% of its health.
jugarap's Aggron fainted.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
jugarap switched in Pinsir (lvl 100 Pinsir ?).
Pinsir used Earthquake.
Milotic lost 25% of its health.
Milotic used Surf.
Pinsir lost 51% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Pinsir used Stone Edge.
Milotic lost 26% of its health.
Milotic used Recover.
Milotic restored 50% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 2% of its health.
---
Pinsir used Stone Edge.
Milotic lost 28% of its health.
Milotic used Surf.
Pinsir lost 18% of its health.
jugarap's Pinsir fainted.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
jugarap switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Houndoom used Hidden Power.
Milotic lost 19% of its health.
Milotic used Surf.
It's super effective!
Houndoom lost 92% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Houndoom used Hidden Power.
A critical hit!
Milotic lost 36% of its health.
Milotic used Surf.
It's super effective!
Houndoom lost 8% of its health.
jugarap's Houndoom fainted.
Testnut wins!
Testnut: gg
jugarap has left the room.

Even though Pinsir resisted DynamicPunch, the confusion forced the opponent to switch, which I successfully predicted to be a Ghost. The opponent pulled a double switch to Venusaur, and Confusion plus Priority enabled me to KO it. Machoke then, like in the previous match, utilized its Focus Sash and Confusion to beat Milotic. This paved the way for Milotic to finish off the match, since its counters were removed.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Testnut sent out Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
O-RLYavatar sent out Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
O-RLYavatar switched in Weezing (lvl 100 Weezing ?).
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Weezing lost 15% of its health.
Weezing became confused!
Weezing's leftovers restored its health a little!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Weezing is confused!
Weezing used Will-o-wisp.
Houndoom's Flash Fire raised its fire power!
Weezing's leftovers restored its health a little!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
Houndoom used Nasty Plot.
Houndoom's special attack was sharply raised.
Weezing is confused!
Weezing used Thunderbolt.
Houndoom lost 26% of its health.
Weezing's leftovers restored its health a little!
Weezing restored 3% of its health.
---
Houndoom used Fire Blast.
Weezing lost 100% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Weezing fainted.
Houndoom lost 10% of its health.
---
O-RLYavatar switched in Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
Testnut switched in Scyther (lvl 100 Scyther ?).
Sceptile used Focus Blast.
It's not very effective...
Scyther lost 18% of its health.
---
O-RLYavatar switched in Altaria (lvl 100 Altaria ?).
Scyther used Swords Dance.
Scyther's attack was sharply raised.
---
Scyther used Aerial Ace.
Altaria lost 100% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Altaria fainted.
Scyther lost 10% of its health.
---
O-RLYavatar switched in Claydol (lvl 100 Claydol).
Scyther used Aerial Ace.
Claydol lost 90% of its health.
Scyther lost 10% of its health.
Claydol used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Claydol's leftovers restored its health a little!
Claydol restored 6% of its health.
---
Scyther used Aerial Ace.
Claydol lost 16% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Claydol fainted.
Scyther lost 10% of its health.
---
O-RLYavatar switched in Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
Scyther used Quick Attack.
Sceptile lost 81% of its health.
Scyther lost 10% of its health.
Sceptile used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Scyther lost 42% of its health.
Testnut's Scyther fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Donphan (lvl 100 Donphan ?).
Pointed stones dug into Donphan.
Donphan lost 6% of its health.
Sceptile used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Donphan lost 94% of its health.
Testnut's Donphan fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Pointed stones dug into Milotic.
Milotic lost 12% of its health.
O-RLYavatar switched in Lanturn (lvl 100 Lanturn ?).
Milotic used Toxic.
Lanturn was badly poisoned!
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
Lanturn is hurt by poison!
Lanturn lost 6% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Skuntank (lvl 100 Skuntank ?).
Pointed stones dug into Skuntank.
Skuntank lost 12% of its health.
Lanturn used Thunderbolt.
Skuntank lost 47% of its health.
Skuntank's leftovers restored its health a little!
Skuntank restored 6% of its health.
Lanturn's leftovers restored its health a little!
Lanturn restored 6% of its health.
Lanturn is hurt by poison!
Lanturn lost 12% of its health.
---
Skuntank used Explosion.
Lanturn lost 88% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Lanturn fainted.
Testnut's Skuntank fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
O-RLYavatar switched in Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
Pointed stones dug into Machoke.
Machoke lost 6% of its health.
Machoke used Bullet Punch.
Sceptile lost 19% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Sceptile fainted.
---
O-RLYavatar switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
Absol used Sucker Punch.
It's not very effective...
Machoke lost 37% of its health.
Absol lost 10% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's super effective!
Absol lost 90% of its health.
O-RLYavatar's Absol fainted.
Testnut wins!
Testnut: gg
O-RLYavatar has left the room.

While initially unsuccessful in its endeavor as a lead, this match showcases LeadChoke's usefulness throughout the entire match, revenging Sceptile and finishing off Absol to win the match.

SubChoke:

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Testnut sent out Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Jungle18 sent out Scyther (lvl 100 Scyther ?).
Scyther used U-turn.
It's not very effective...
Qwilfish lost 42% of its health.
Jungle18 switched in Steelix (lvl 100 Steelix ?).
Qwilfish used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Steelix lost 34% of its health.
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Steelix used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Steelix used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Qwilfish lost 58% of its health.
Testnut's Qwilfish fainted.
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
Pointed stones dug into Machoke.
Machoke lost 6% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Steelix used Toxic.
But it failed!
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's super effective!
Steelix lost 52% of its health.
Steelix became confused!
Steelix is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Steelix lost 5% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
Steelix's leftovers restored its health a little!
Steelix restored 6% of its health.
---
Jungle18 switched in Scyther (lvl 100 Scyther ?).
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Scyther lost 17% of its health.
Scyther became confused!
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Scyther is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Scyther lost 30% of its health.
Machoke used Toxic.
Scyther was badly poisoned!
Scyther is hurt by poison!
Scyther lost 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Scyther is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Scyther lost 25% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
But it failed!
Scyther is hurt by poison!
Scyther lost 12% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Scyther is confused!
Scyther used Aerial Ace.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Scyther is hurt by poison!
Scyther lost 11% of its health.
Jungle18's Scyther fainted.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Jungle18 switched in Leafeon (lvl 100 Leafeon ?).
Leafeon was hurt by Spikes!
Leafeon lost 19% of its health.
Leafeon used Leaf Blade.
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Leafeon lost 42% of its health.
Leafeon became confused!
Leafeon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Leafeon restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Jungle18 switched in Feraligatr (lvl 100 Feraligatr ?).
Feraligatr was hurt by Spikes!
Feraligatr lost 19% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Feraligatr's leftovers restored its health a little!
Feraligatr restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Feraligatr used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Feraligatr lost 49% of its health.
Feraligatr became confused!
Feraligatr's leftovers restored its health a little!
Feraligatr restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Feraligatr is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Feraligatr lost 15% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Feraligatr's leftovers restored its health a little!
Feraligatr restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Feraligatr is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Feraligatr lost 14% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
A critical hit!
Feraligatr lost 22% of its health.
Jungle18's Feraligatr fainted.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Jungle18 switched in Hitmontop (lvl 100 Hitmontop ?).
Hitmontop was hurt by Spikes!
Hitmontop lost 19% of its health.
Hitmontop used Sucker Punch.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Hitmontop lost 59% of its health.
Hitmontop became confused!
Hitmontop's leftovers restored its health a little!
Hitmontop restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Hitmontop is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Hitmontop lost 13% of its health.
Machoke used Toxic.
Hitmontop was badly poisoned!
Hitmontop's leftovers restored its health a little!
Hitmontop restored 6% of its health.
Hitmontop is hurt by poison!
Hitmontop lost 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Jungle18: gg
Jungle18 has left the room.
Testnut wins!
Testnut: gg

While this isn't a complete battle, as the opponent left early, SubChoke was successfully able to KO and cripple a good portion of the opponents team simply because of the Substitute on Steelix. While it didn't outright OHKO things, it had enough power to place huge dents in each Pokemon, and thanks to Confusion, added a few extra turns to spread around Toxic. It also showcases its ability to Toxic Stall opponents.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Testnut sent out Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
StarvinMarvin sent out Shedinja (lvl 100 Shedinja).
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Shedinja used Will-o-wisp.
Qwilfish was burned!
Qwilfish was hurt by its burn!
Qwilfish lost 12% of its health.
---
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Shedinja used Swords Dance.
Shedinja's attack was sharply raised.
Qwilfish was hurt by its burn!
Qwilfish lost 12% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Shedinja's attack!
Shedinja used Swords Dance.
Shedinja's attack was sharply raised.
---
Shedinja used Shadow Claw.
Arcanine lost 65% of its health.
Arcanine used Roar.
StarvinMarvin switched in Arcanine (lvl 100 Arcanine ?).
Arcanine's Intimidate cut Arcanine's attack!
Arcanine was hurt by Spikes!
Arcanine lost 19% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
---
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Arcanine lost 20% of its health.
Arcanine used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Arcanine lost 44% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
---
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Arcanine lost 20% of its health.
Arcanine used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Arcanine lost 49% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
---
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Arcanine lost 13% of its health.
Testnut's Arcanine fainted.
Arcanine's leftovers restored its health a little!
Arcanine restored 6% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Arcanine used Extremespeed.
Qwilfish lost 37% of its health.
Qwilfish used Aqua Jet.
It's super effective!
Arcanine lost 13% of its health.
StarvinMarvin's Arcanine fainted.
Qwilfish was hurt by its burn!
Qwilfish lost 12% of its health.
---
StarvinMarvin switched in Altaria (lvl 100 Altaria ?).
Qwilfish used Explosion.
Altaria lost 88% of its health.
Testnut's Qwilfish fainted.
Altaria used Earthquake.
But there was no target!
---
Testnut switched in Registeel (lvl 100 Registeel).
Altaria used Roost.
Altaria restored 50% of its health.
Registeel used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
---
Altaria used Dragon Dance.
Altaria's attack was raised.
Altaria's speed was raised.
Registeel used Explosion.
Altaria lost 62% of its health.
StarvinMarvin's Altaria fainted.
Testnut's Registeel fainted.
---
Testnut switched in Sceptile (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
StarvinMarvin switched in Shedinja (lvl 100 Shedinja).
Shedinja was hurt by Spikes!
Shedinja lost 100% of its health.
StarvinMarvin's Shedinja fainted.
Pointed stones dug into Shedinja.
StarvinMarvin switched in Porygon2 (lvl 100 Porygon2).
Porygon2's Download raised its stats!
Porygon2's attack was raised.
Porygon2 was hurt by Spikes!
Porygon2 lost 19% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Porygon2.
Porygon2 lost 12% of its health.
Testnut switched in Altaria (lvl 100 Altaria ?).
Porygon2 used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Altaria lost 100% of its health.
Testnut's Altaria fainted.
Porygon2 lost 10% of its health.
---
Testnut switched in Machoke (lvl 100 Machoke ?).
StarvinMarvin switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Mesprit used Psychic.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Mesprit lost 18% of its health.
Mesprit became confused!
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Mesprit is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Mesprit lost 7% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Mesprit is confused!
Mesprit used Psychic.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Payback.
It's super effective!
Mesprit lost 52% of its health.
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Mesprit is confused!
Mesprit used Rest.
Mesprit fell asleep!
Mesprit restored 66% of its health.
Machoke used Payback.
It's super effective!
Mesprit lost 53% of its health.
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
StarvinMarvin switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Milotic was hurt by Spikes!
Milotic lost 19% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Milotic.
Milotic lost 12% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Milotic used Surf.
The substitute took damage for Machoke!
Machoke's substitute faded!
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
Milotic lost 42% of its health.
Milotic became confused!
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Milotic is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Milotic lost 5% of its health.
Machoke used Substitute.
Machoke lost 25% of its health.
Machoke made a substitute!
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Milotic is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Milotic lost 6% of its health.
Machoke used Toxic.
Milotic was badly poisoned!
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
Milotic is hurt by poison!
Milotic lost 6% of its health.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
Milotic is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Milotic lost 3% of its health.
Machoke used Dynamicpunch.
A critical hit!
Milotic lost 31% of its health.
StarvinMarvin's Milotic fainted.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
StarvinMarvin switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
Mesprit is fast asleep!
Machoke used Payback.
It's super effective!
Mesprit lost 40% of its health.
StarvinMarvin's Mesprit fainted.
Machoke's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machoke restored 6% of its health.
---
StarvinMarvin has left the room.
Testnut wins!

Like its OU counterpart, Machoke relies on his confusion this match to successfully beat out a Mesprit with Rest and a Milotic. Like the other match, the opponent leaves early.

Garganator · Jun 2, 2010

Little nitpicks.

[SET]
name: Substitute + Three Attacks
move 1: Substitute
move 2: DynamicPunch
move 3: Payback
move 4: Ice Punch / Encore / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Taking a nod from its OU counterpart Machamp, SubChoke can be very effective in the UU tier. Substitute is a perfect fit for Machoke, being able to scout the plethora of switches Machoke causes as well as prevent status from opposing switch-ins, including Spiritomb and Rotom's Will-O-Wisp and Venusaur's Sleep Powder. DynamicPunch plus No Guard is a huge selling point for the set as well, pairing with Substitute to guarantee a huge hit on any Pokemon who does not resist it.

EDIT:

I didn't tested it out, but I think that Bulk Up Machoke would be nice to test. Something to those lines.

~ Substitute
~ DynamicPunch
~ PayBack
~ Bulk Up

Simple as hell - sub on switch, bulk up or confuse with DynamicPunch and build Bulk Ups. It would play in a bit different way then standard SubChoke, so I think adding new set would be nice. EVs probably the same as those from standard SubChoke.

DarkSlay · Jun 2, 2010

Garganator said:
Little nitpicks.

Thanks! My "T" button must have been out of commission that night. XD I'll make the changes ASAP.

EDIT:

I didn't test it out, but I think that Bulk Up Machoke would be nice to test. Something to those lines.

~ Substitute
~ DynamicPunch
~ PayBack
~ Bulk Up

Simple as hell - sub on switch, bulk up or confuse with DynamicPunch and build Bulk Ups. It would play in a bit different way then standard SubChoke, so I think adding new set would be nice. EVs probably the same as those from standard SubChoke.

I actually have tested out Bulk Up Machoke. It did well enough. The only problem, however, is that it is severely outclassed by Hitmontop and Hariyama (especially). Hitmontop may not have as much Attack as Machoke (95 to 100), but it has stupendous Defense and Special Defense (50/95/110 compared to 75/70/60, with HP being the only weak positive for Machoke) AND it has access to STAB priority combined with Technician, as well as priority to take out Ghosts. So, essentially, it's much faster than anything Machoke can't hit thanks to priority moves. Hariyama has a monstrous HP stat, making it have a makeshift bulk Machoke simply cannot touch, and almost the same Defenses (60/60 compared to Machoke's 70/60), plus 35 more Base Attack, and is also slightly faster. It also doubles as a status absorber. The confusion from DynamicPunch does sound appealing at first, but by using Bulk Up instead of, say, Ice Punch or Toxic, you are seriously limiting the ability to counter common checks, like Spiritomb (who can set up on this set), Slowbro, Slowking, and Venusaur. At +1, Machoke rarely 2HKO's Venusaur with DynamicPunch after SR damage. The original Sub set at least offers a way to deal with each, depending on the move

If you test out the set and provide some battle logs that showcase why to use Machoke over these two, then I will consider adding it. Until then, it's remaining as a mention in the Optional Choice section. It is a very interesting concept, however.

Thanks!

Eo Ut Mortus · Jun 19, 2010

Machoke is inevitably going to be compared to Hariyama, and from what I'm looking at, the only thing that Machoke has over it is the 100% accuracy DynamicPunch. I'm uncertain whether or not that's worth it. I'm going to move this to Quality Control for the moment and see what everyone else's opinion is on the matter.

Machoke (Analysis)

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*

Huff

of the Distant Past

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*

of the Distant Past

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*

Level 3

On porpoise

2 kawaii 4 u

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*

Level 3

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*

強いだね

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*

Elodin Smells

Guess who's back? Na na na! breakdances

Guess who's back? Na na na! breakdances

Guess who's back? Na na na! breakdances

Guess who's back? Na na na! breakdances

Guess who's back? Na na na! breakdances

Guess who's back? Na na na! breakdances

Guess who's back? Na na na! breakdances

Guess who's back? Na na na! breakdances

Guess who's back? Na na na! breakdances

Guess who's back? Na na na! breakdances