Pokémon Lucario

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

"My mega isnt banned in SSB4!"
Say hello to Lucario, a pokemon that was once outclassed by its mega. Seeing as the old thread was locked because it was full of Mega Lucario posts and a new one hasnt been posted yet, lets start a new thread.

Lucario was a very threatening sweeper ever since it was introduced gen 4. It was(and still is)used as a physical sweeper, which is a very potent sweeper. It isn't seeing as much use this gen because of new physical sweepers like Mega Pinsir and Mega Gyarados, but it is still a potent sweeper nonetheless. One of the main qualities that Lucario possesses as a sweeper is that it has a very different set of checks and counters from other main sweepers. This means it can be a great partner for sweepers like Pinsir and Gyarados because it has a completely different set of counters than those two, and it has the movepool to pick and choose what counters it. According to this months usage stats, it has suffered a drop to sub-2% usage. This implies that it has some major flaws, but its usage should still be above the OU cutoff because it is that good. It also has the uncanny ability to break stall with its sweeper set after a boost because its counters are that out-of-place. For counters, the closest you get to a fool-proof is quagsire, which is almost always 2HKOed by a close combat.(252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). So how is this thing not in OU after this months usage? Simply put, it is slow for a sweeper(i should probably use the term wallbreaker because thats what its stats reflect tbh), and it has 4MSS. Pick Ice Punch, get walled by Aegislash. Pick Earthquake, get walled by Landorus-T. Pick Iron Tail, you are walled by both. Its easy to see why it fell to below 2% usage, but dont let this fool you. It is capable of completely demolishing unprepared teams, both offensive and defensive.

Now for its set!

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- ExtremeSpeed
- Iron Tail / Ice Punch / Crunch / Earthquake

DISCUSS

 

[Tyrant laharl]

just want to say that one of the major counters to a lucario mega pinsir core would be zapdos I would assume, seeing as how zapdos countered mega Luc before his ban. Also, I had a lot of success pairing LO physical Luc with espeed alongside CB dragonite. I found a lot of times I could overpower HO teams just with espeed spam. And on top of that dragonite and lucario have excellent type synergy.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Could somebody tell me why Mega-Lucario was banned? Was it as broken as Mega-Kangashkan?

Not as broken as Mega Gengar or Mega Kangaskhan, hence why it was was suspected as opposed to quick-banned, but still considered unhealthy enough to warrant a ban due to Mega Lucario's unpredictability. It could run either a Physical or Special set and still clean house with either, forcing people to carry two checks to it. Also after a boost it could tear through pretty much any wall. Just for reference:

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 472-556 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 380-448 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But anyway, so not to derail the topic, about Vanilla Lucario. While the banning of it's Mega Stone is certainly a step back, it's still usable. It's got a rare x4 resistance to rock, and it just so happens some of the more powerful Pokemon are x4 weak to rock, such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir and Zard Y, so there's that. It's got Extremespeed which helps with base Lucario's somewhat lackluster speed a bit aswell. However it suffers from being frail, and while the Steel Type helps with that somewhat, 70/70/70 defenses aren't that great no matter how you slice it. So I'm not quite sure what to think of Base Lucario, it's got a interesting typing, a very wide movepool, but suffers from it's fraility and 4MSS.

 

[rachet67]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...n-extreme-speed-demon-read-post-1278.3498655/

This is the suspect dicussion thread for Lucarionite, Genesect, and Deoxys-S

To summarize a lot of it, Lucario could completely wreck teams once set up (or not). Because it could run both physical and special sets switching in the wrong counter could mean losing the game. Even the best physical walls in the game such as Skarmory were cleanly 2HKO'd by an unboosted Close Combat. There were only a few counters for both sets, and all of them became shaky at best with SR. It was extremely hard to even revenge kill as it had 112 base speed and a plethora of great priority moves to abuse.

Back onto the actual topic, the one positive base-form Lucario has now is the its counters aren't on literally every team anymore.

 

[Zardex]

I honestly love Lucario despite the loss of his mega. I can't see much more to mention that everyone else didn't mention about Vanilla Lucario but I wanna see how everyone else feels about sticky web support for Lucario; Do you think with sticky web would be enough to fix his speed problems and help him become more of a threat?

 

[aVocado]

There already exists a thread for Lucario I think..

But anyway, Lucario is still a really strong sweeper, and for some good reasons. It's one of the few Pokemon that can afford to run an Adamant nature, and therefore making it really strong. It has access to a ridiculously good STAB in Close Combat, Bullet Punch, and just the coverage moves it needs in Ice Punch, Crunch, and to an extent Thunder Punch/Stone Edge. And of course, it has ExtremeSpeed, which is the selling point of SD Lucario really. At +2 it can really hurt a lot of Pokemon and thanks to its typing it can find many set-up opportunities. It's also one of the few sweepers that can't be revenge-killed by Talonflame thanks to ExtremeSpeed.

I don't have much experience with it in XY, but I used it briefly after the mega was banned, and I used it extensively in previous generations.

Lucario @ Life Orb
ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Punch / Crunch / Bullet Punch

It doesn't really need Sticky Web because what's faster is better hit by ExtremeSpeed, and what's slower by Close Combat, and Ice Punch is for Landorus-T and Gliscor who otherwise wall this set.

 

[dkkc19]

Not as broken as Mega Gengar or Mega Kangaskhan, hence why it was was suspected as opposed to quick-banned, but still considered unhealthy enough to warrant a ban due to Mega Lucario's unpredictability. It could run either a Physical or Special set and still clean house with either, forcing people to carry two checks to it. Also after a boost it could tear through pretty much any wall. Just for reference:

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 472-556 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 380-448 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And it gets really fast after after mega Evolving. Yeah, I got into the bad end of Mega Lucario. I battled a friend of mine and I had 5 Pokemons left, while he had 2, one of them Lucario. For some idiotic reason I allowed him to set up, and after the Nasty Plot he proceeded to wipe out my whole team.


Anyway, back on topic, is Justified the best ability for Lucario? I have bunch of Steadfest and Inner Focus Lucarios/Riolus on my Pokemon X, not sure if they are worth training and using/

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

And it gets really fast after after mega Evolving. Yeah, I got into the bad end of Mega Lucario. I battled a friend of mine and I had 5 Pokemons left, while he had 2, one of them Lucario. For some idiotic reason I allowed him to set up, and after the Nasty Plot he proceeded to wipe out my whole team.


Anyway, back on topic, is Justified the best ability for Lucario? I have bunch of Steadfest and Inner Focus Lucarios/Riolus on my Pokemon X, not sure if they are worth training and using/

I recommend justified because dark is new dragon, but steadfast is niche in that it can alleviate the speed problem via hax. Wouldnt rely on it thp

 

[dkkc19]

I recommend justified because dark is new dragon, but steadfast is niche in that it can alleviate the speed problem via hax. Wouldnt rely on it thp

Tbh, if I wanted a Lucario for Showdown I'd go with the Steadfest or Inner Focus because of Paraflinch Togekiss. But I don't remember seeing many paraflinch Togecunts on the Wifi.

Justified seems awesome especially if you have a Ghost/Psychic Pokemon to lure in Dark attacks.

 

[Stoo]

lucarios main niche in ou is countering bisharp, but i think some of the hype around deosharp has died down now and its become less useful. ive used it in HO teams before but its main problem is that its just too slow, and easily revenge killed. +2 extremespeed will only get you so far and fails to ohko some pretty important threats. even common stuff like thundurus-i, which is frail as all hell, takes it pretty well:

+2 252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 208-245 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

not the best odds, and without SR you're taking a focus blast/superpower to the face.

 

[Scepticallistic]

even common stuff like thundurus-i, which is frail as all hell, takes it pretty well:

+2 252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 208-245 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

not the best odds, and without SR you're taking a focus blast/superpower to the face.

Add in a Life Orb, and the damage to Thundurus-T becomes 90 - 106%.

 

[zyzzyva]

What item would that set have? Adamant LO Lucario OHKO's Thundurus with ESpeed over 90% of the time and Jolly LO OHKO's 37.5% of the time. Both easily guaranteed with SR.

That said, speed is still an issue, and its frailty isn't helped out by weaknesses to the common ground, fighting, and fire. Still, its SD LO set is certainly viable, and nothing offensive wants to take a +2 ESpeed, while not a whole lot of defensive mons care for a +2 CC. In that way it can fulfill roles as a late game cleaner, a sweeper, or a wallbreaker even.

 

[aVocado]

lucarios main niche in ou is countering bisharp, but i think some of the hype around deosharp has died down now and its become less useful. ive used it in HO teams before but its main problem is that its just too slow, and easily revenge killed. +2 extremespeed will only get you so far and fails to ohko some pretty important threats. even common stuff like thundurus-i, which is frail as all hell, takes it pretty well:

+2 252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 208-245 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

not the best odds, and without SR you're taking a focus blast/superpower to the face.

Uhh SD Luke is LO Adamant, you forgot those two elements.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 296-350 (98.6 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

When you calc, calc it right. As a matter of fact, here's how well it does against other common sweepers:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-315 (88 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 242-285 (80.3 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 242-285 (75.6 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 231-273 (64.5 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-285 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and vs. common walls:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 347-409 (81.8 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 282-333 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 320-376 (76.1 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's pretty damn impressive if you ask me. Lucario has always been one hell of a scary sweeper if set-up. That being said it still does have flaws, with the prevalence of Fairies now it's kind of forced to run bullet punch, and that's a bit too weak. It's bulk is also pretty bad but that's kind of taken care of by having a fantastic offensive/defensive typing. And, the biggest problem for Luke is the fact that it can never cover all Pokemon. If it uses Bullet Punch, it misses out on OHKOing two of its counters -Gliscor and Lando-T-, and if it uses Ice Punch then it's walled by fairies.

 

[skies]

Uhh SD Luke is LO Adamant, you forgot those two elements.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 296-350 (98.6 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

When you calc, calc it right. As a matter of fact, here's how well it does against other common sweepers:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-315 (88 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 242-285 (80.3 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 242-285 (75.6 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 231-273 (64.5 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-285 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and vs. common walls:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 347-409 (81.8 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 282-333 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 320-376 (76.1 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's pretty damn impressive if you ask me. Lucario has always been one hell of a scary sweeper if set-up. That being said it still does have flaws, with the prevalence of Fairies now it's kind of forced to run bullet punch, and that's a bit too weak. It's bulk is also pretty bad but that's kind of taken care of by having a fantastic offensive/defensive typing. And, the biggest problem for Luke is the fact that it can never cover all Pokemon. If it uses Bullet Punch, it misses out on OHKOing two of its counters -Gliscor and Lando-T-, and if it uses Ice Punch then it's walled by fairies.

+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 247-291 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Close Combat is just that strong u.u
+2 252 Atk Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 304-358 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 225-266 (57.3 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Specially Defensive Clefable is also killed off, however Unaware is not.
+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It doesn't really need Focus Punch imo.

 

[aVocado]

No one uses 252/0 Def Sylveon lol

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's still damn impressive though, I underestimated Luke..

However, in return, counting CC's defense drop:

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 274-324 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Yeah, that's a lot.

And after checking.. Luke doesn't even need BP to bypass Sylveon:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Stoo]

well, my bad. in my experience i felt like i was missing out on alot of important KOs with that extremespeed, that obv wasnt one of them :c

 

[rachet67]

+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 247-291 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Close Combat is just that strong u.u
+2 252 Atk Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 304-358 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 225-266 (57.3 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Specially Defensive Clefable is also killed off, however Unaware is not.
+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It doesn't really need Focus Punch imo.

Wait, but how is Lucario seting up a swords dance and using Close Combat on the switch in on the same turn? All of these pokemon should be switching in the turn Lucario uses Swords dance, so they won't get 2HKO'd.

 

[skies]

Wait, but how is Lucario seting up a swords dance and using Close Combat on the switch in on the same turn? All of these pokemon should be switching in the turn Lucario uses Swords dance, so they won't get 2HKO'd.

But all of these are 2HKO'ed by Bullet Punch so it doesn't make a difference.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

imo i would use iron tail over bullet punch because iron tail is what gives it the uncanny ability to fuck stall up

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

imo i would use iron tail over bullet punch because iron tail is what gives it the uncanny ability to fuck stall up

That 75% accuracy completely sells me.

It has power, but bullet punch is generally the better option.

 

[dr00]

imo i would use iron tail over bullet punch because iron tail is what gives it the uncanny ability to fuck stall up

just because they're both steel moves, doesn't mean they're really comparable (ie: compete for a moveslot)

the question should be bullet punch or extremespeed, since lucario's 'low' (relatively) speed is patched up with priority.
everyone used extremespeed the last two gens because steel is a relatively useless attacking type, and last gen extremespeed got a lot more viable with the increased priority

now, with fairies, there's a legitimate argument for bullet punch over extremespeed (but no clear winner, so it's all up to personal preference now)


you haven't made one, but i don't see how there could ever be any compelling reason that iron tail is useful unless it's on a gravity team, someone with hone claws, or something the patch up the accuracy (and not having access to a much more useful boosting move, such as swords dance which lucario has).
if you're relying on the defense drop, then 'have fun dying when bullet punch doesnt ko' doesn't make any sense (not that it did anyway), because this means you're relying on an effect that requires more than one turn for it to actually have an effect.
not to mention that as often as you'll get a defense drop, iron tail will do absolutely nothing at all almost as often.
on top of that, you have to make a compelling case for iron tail over some other coverage move or, as you have it, give up access to priority.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

just because they're both steel moves, doesn't mean they're really comparable (ie: compete for a moveslot)

the question should be bullet punch or extremespeed, since lucario's 'low' (relatively) speed is patched up with priority.
everyone used extremespeed the last two gens because steel is a relatively useless attacking type, and last gen extremespeed got a lot more viable with the increased priority

now, with fairies, there's a legitimate argument for bullet punch over extremespeed (but no clear winner, so it's all up to personal preference now)


you haven't made one, but i don't see how there could ever be any compelling reason that iron tail is useful unless it's on a gravity team, someone with hone claws, or something the patch up the accuracy (and not having access to a much more useful boosting move, such as swords dance which lucario has).
if you're relying on the defense drop, then 'have fun dying when bullet punch doesnt ko' doesn't make any sense (not that it did anyway), because this means you're relying on an effect that requires more than one turn for it to actually have an effect.
not to mention that as often as you'll get a defense drop, iron tail will do absolutely nothing at all almost as often.
on top of that, you have to make a compelling case for iron tail over some other coverage move or, as you have it, give up access to priority.

Let me calc mega venusaur
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 259-305 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if luc has iron tail, mega venu cant switch in, and the OP stated quaggy is far from reliable as a counter, so stall therefore has no counter
also, you want espeed over bullet punch because of the extra priority and higher base power(bullet punch is only 60 after STAB)

 

[dr00]

Let me calc mega venusaur
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 259-305 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if luc has iron tail, mega venu cant switch in, and the OP stated quaggy is far from reliable as a counter, so stall therefore has no counter

you get better results (taking accuracy into account) with earthquake though which is ostensibly a much better coverage move overall

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 173-204 (47.5 - 56%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

 

[zyzzyva]

But if your goal is breaking stall, Iron Tail always OHKO's Unaware Clefable: 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 538-634 (136.5 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While Earthquake (which does more than CC or ESpeed would): 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 179-212 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Which is manageable, especially with SR or some other prior form of damage, but Iron Tail does the job a heckuva lot better. All the same, the accuracy of Iron Tail is really unattractive, so I'm not sure if it's ultimately worth it. Guess it depends on how willing you are to risk such low accuracy, and how willing you are to sac Ice Punch, which means you lose to Gliscor and Lando.

 

[RotomPoison]

Bullet Punch > Extreme Speed simply because you can now hit Pokemon like Gengar who assume they are immune to your priority and STAB move. I suppose you could say hitting Fairies is nice, but the utility of turning checks (let's be honest, no one brings Talonflame into Lucario unless it is absolutely sure it has a safe switch and wouldn't die to ESpeed (Rocks in this case making boosting pointless, should they be up.)

Another key point I think people need to realize is: ExtremeSpeed is weak. STAB CC outdamages it even when resisted. Priority on Lucario is used to beat things that would be able to revenge kill it otherwise if they are weakened enough. If ESpeed can not beat something at +2 (and yes many things are faster then Lucario so its very important) what good is it? Even though it has lower power, Bullet Punch is better barring Talonflame, but that is easily taken care of by either SR + CC or simply teammates.

Lucario has dropped in viability because Pokemon like Azumarill, while they can not directly OHKO with their priority, can take a hit and then kill it off. Ice Punch Lucario still loses to Landorus-T with the right EVs. Crunch still loses to most bulkier Ghosts (especially if they come in after a kill) as they carry Will-O-Wisp.

tl;dr: BP > ESpeed cause it's weak anyway and should be used for utility and Licario is worse because it's weak and new Pokemon wall it.

re: Iron Tail: no, it has some use, but leave the few relevant Fairies to teammates and try using your best coverage and utility to beat what you can.

as for the guy above me: you can't count SR because Clefable has Magic Guard gg Luke.