Other Lower Tier Threats (ORAS Edition)

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Reserving for Starmie, will be writing up shortly

Post Internet crash, here it is.

starmie.gif

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure / Analytic
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt / Psyshock / Recover

Role: Offensive spinner, can also get some revenge kills

Remember when Starmie was OU? Despite its drop, Starmie can still make an impact in OU, especially after the banishment of Aegislash. No other user of Rapid Spin is as fast, and it has a solid 100 base special attack stat and a good movepool to back it up. Analytic takes advantage of the sheer number of switches Starmie forces by giving its attacks a hefty 30% power boost, while Natural Cure lets it handle getting statused, and works well if you choose to carry Recover, as LO recoil and other residual damage can wear Starmie down.

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Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 16 SpD / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Reflect Type
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

Role: Fast tank

While Starmie's bulk may not seem that great at 60 / 85 / 85, it does get reliable recovery, plus a move that, while it may look gimmicky, allows it to beat many of its normal checks: Reflect Type. In case you don't know, Reflect Type changes Starmie's type to match its opponent's. With it, it can handle the STAB attacks of things like Tyranitar and Bisharp, which normally beat it. Adding to that is Scald, which is used mainly for its burn chance.
 
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Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 SpD
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Mirror Coat
- Haze

One of the most effective mons in OU and highly underrated. Takes max 35% from standard Rotom's volt switch and the damage from mirror coat will do over half if not kill most things. It beats LO Latios 1v1 should they choose to attack because mirror coat will kill them and Latios can not 2hko with psyshock or 2 Draco Meteors (this obviously does not apply to crits). It beats calm mind Clefable if you play it right and non speed invested Mega Scizors. Basically you just scald until you burn and haze away any SD's. But the main reason this mon works is because people are so reluctant to lead with their scarfed Lando's (it's OU they're gonna have a scarfed Lando lol) that they give this thing a plus 2 and usually end up U-Turning into their Latios to take a +2 scald. The other option is to leave in your Lando, do 44% after lefties with an EQ, and die to a scald. Really a great mon and I hope anybody who tries it has as much success with it as I have.
 
pye said:
Small nitpick: is there really a reason why competitive is being used over marvel scale? I feel marvel scale provides much more overall utility over competitive as scald isnt rly used for damage as opposed to that crisp burn chance, while marvel scale helps milotic as a phyiscal wall in case it gets statused. Is there some sort of a legality issue with one of its moves?
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"But the main reason this mon works is because people are so reluctant to lead with their scarfed Lando's (it's OU they're gonna have a scarfed Lando lol) that they give this thing a plus 2 and usually end up U-Turning into their Latios to take a +2 scald. The other option is to leave in your Lando, do 44% after lefties with an EQ, and die to a scald"

That's why. A +2 that makes your wall a decent offensive threat vs. a little more bulk but 12% damage every turn. That's what I'm comparing when I use this set. And no there are no legality issues with this moveset and ability.
 
I guess it's main use is because lando-t is so so common in OU that getting the free +2 and nuking something on the switch with scald is pretty nice. Scald already takes care of most physical attackers anyways due to the burn chance, but idk.

getting ninjad for the win
 
swagilyph said:
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Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 SpD
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Mirror Coat
- Haze

One of the most effective mons in OU and highly underrated. Takes max 35% from standard Rotom's volt switch and the damage from mirror coat will do over half if not kill most things. It beats LO Latios 1v1 should they choose to attack because mirror coat will kill them and Latios can not 2hko with psyshock or 2 Draco Meteors (this obviously does not apply to crits). It beats calm mind Clefable if you play it right and non speed invested Mega Scizors. Basically you just scald until you burn and haze away any SD's. But the main reason this mon works is because people are so reluctant to lead with their scarfed Lando's (it's OU they're gonna have a scarfed Lando lol) that they give this thing a plus 2 and usually end up U-Turning into their Latios to take a +2 scald. The other option is to leave in your Lando, do 44% after lefties with an EQ, and die to a scald. Really a great mon and I hope anybody who tries it has as much success with it as I have.
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Bolded statement is a lie, as Milotic isn't even ranked on the Viability thread. I don't think we should allow anything here that isn't on there.
 
swagilyph said:
350.gif

Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 SpD
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Mirror Coat
- Haze

One of the most effective mons in OU and highly underrated. Takes max 35% from standard Rotom's volt switch and the damage from mirror coat will do over half if not kill most things. It beats LO Latios 1v1 should they choose to attack because mirror coat will kill them and Latios can not 2hko with psyshock or 2 Draco Meteors (this obviously does not apply to crits). It beats calm mind Clefable if you play it right and non speed invested Mega Scizors. Basically you just scald until you burn and haze away any SD's. But the main reason this mon works is because people are so reluctant to lead with their scarfed Lando's (it's OU they're gonna have a scarfed Lando lol) that they give this thing a plus 2 and usually end up U-Turning into their Latios to take a +2 scald. The other option is to leave in your Lando, do 44% after lefties with an EQ, and die to a scald. Really a great mon and I hope anybody who tries it has as much success with it as I have.
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Also beats Greninjas with no grass move. So there you go.
 
Adamant Zoroark said:
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 224 Def Milotic: 160-188 (40.7 - 47.8%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Nope.
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Beats. 1v1. Not switches into. Dont try to combat a statement with which you decide the scenario. It can take any hit from it and continue to recover. The point is its viable and everybodies flipping their fucking shit about it.
 
swagilyph said:
Beats. 1v1. Not switches into. Dont try to combat a statement with which you decide the scenario. It can take any hit from it and continue to recover. The point is its viable and everybodies flipping their fucking shit about it.
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Saying it beats it implies it's a counter, which it's not. Its a shaky check at best.
 
Karxrida said:
Bolded statement is a lie, as Milotic isn't even ranked on the Viability thread. I don't think we should allow anything here that isn't on there.
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Being on the Viability Ranking Thread is a requirement now? I've faced this mon in OU before and I can confirm, at least on my own experience, that it is a very solid mon.

It counters the vast majority of greninjas, beats many CM sweepers, has reliable recovery, excellent spdef paired up with a decent spatk stat. It's a bulky water type that's not set up fodder.

"It's not in the viability ranking thread" is kind of a weak (somewhat close minded) excuse to immediately disregard a post like this.
 
If you're going to use Milotic, use an offensive Competitive set, and even then that loses to some of the most common Defoggers (see: Latis.) I mean, if you get the Competitive boost, it's not extremely awful, it just struggles to find a niche, especially when Latios and Latias, two of the most common Defoggers, beat it, and it's not that useful if you don't get in on a Defog.
 
RandomSpanishGuy said:
Being on the Viability Ranking Thread is a requirement now? I've faced this mon in OU before and I can confirm, at least on my own experience, that it is a very solid mon.

It counters the vast majority of greninjas, beats many CM sweepers, has reliable recovery, excellent spdef paired up with a decent spatk stat. It's a bulky water type that's not set up fodder.

"It's not in the viability ranking thread" is kind of a weak (somewhat close minded) excuse to immediately disregard a post like this.
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If you really think it's viable, go bug alexwolf about it. This thread (as I understand it) is meant to represent viable threats in the metagame, and iirc previous versions nixed anything that wasn't on the Viability thread.
 
Karxrida said:
Bolded statement is a lie, as Milotic isn't even ranked on the Viability thread. I don't think we should allow anything here that isn't on there.
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Despite not being OU Pokemon, many threats can thrive in the OU metagame. These Pokemon can fill valuable niches that no OU Pokemon can, and can also catch players who don't prepare for them off guard. The goal of this thread is to discuss the impact that lower tier Pokemon can have in the OU environment. What unique role do they fill, and what makes them so effective in OU? This thread is meant to help uncover hidden gems from some of the lower tiers, and help broaden the constraints that many players put on themselves when building teams. This thread can also be used to maybe inspire you to use something that isn't standard.
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This thread isn't meant to discuss already known viable stuff, its to uncover certain lower tier things that can have an impact on the OU metagame. Just because a certain mon isn't in the viability thread doesn't mean it's unviable.
 
Adamant Zoroark said:
If you're going to use Milotic, use an offensive Competitive set, and even then that loses to some of the most common Defoggers (see: Latis.) I mean, if you get the Competitive boost, it's not extremely awful, it just struggles to find a niche, especially when Latios and Latias, two of the most common Defoggers, beat it, and it's not that useful if you don't get in on a Defog.
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Defog Latios and Latias do not beat it 1v1 that was the whole point of the damn post.
 
Recreant said:
A Pokemon that is completely outclassed by another in the same role should not be discussed. Same goes for Pokemon whose role is not valuable, or ones who are too weak to be competitive in the OU tier. After it has been discussed, any Pokemon that people decide fills a valuable role in the tier will be edited into the OP.​
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Stop this argument now.

Milotic is directly outclassed by a whole bunch of Pokémon in OU. Keldeo is a prime example who has Calm Mind and dual STABs. It also has a way to boost its special defensive with Calm Mind as well. Manaphy also works. That's if you really want to use the Competitve set, which is outclassed by many more bulky Water types. The Marvel Scale, bulky set is far better. If you want to abuse Defog, use Bisharp. No matter how cool Competitive is, other than that single niche, Milotic has little use in OU and I will not be adding it. This is a rare exception, but Milotic has never been to solid in my eyes.

A note for other people: The Pokémon does not have to be on the viability rankings. It just has to be viable.
 
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Reserving (mega) Lopunny and Cobalion (will get its own post on Friday)

Where do you find sprites?
Mega-Lopunny.png


Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Return
- Fake Out / Ice Punch
- Healing Wish / Ice Punch

Role: Physical attacker, Revenge killer, Support

Lopunny git a whole lot more viable after its mega was released. Combining its amazing Fighting+Normal STAB with scrappy, gives it unresisted coverage. sitting an excellent 135 speed-tier, this pokemon proves to be a problem for most offensive teams in the current meta. HJK and Return make for an incredibly powerful STAB combination which can easily OHKO/2HKO most offensive pokemon (see calcs below). Ice punch lets you hit Gliscor harder aswell as giving you a big chance at OHKOing scarf Lando if SR is up. Fake out can give you a ''free'' mega evolution and break sashes on common lead mons like terrakion and garchomp. It also helps you rack up chip damage and revengekill certain mons at low health. Finally Healing wish can grant a parter a second life and prevent the use of defog/rapid spin.

calcs (also how do you name hide-folders?
-1 252 Atk Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 248-296 (77.7 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 90-106 (30.3 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 97-115 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 154-183 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 880-1036 (323.5 - 380.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 180-213 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 238-282 (83.2 - 98.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 157-186 (52.8 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Return
- Substitute
- Baton Pass / Encore / power-up punch / Ice punch

Roles: Physical attacker, wallbreaker, Support, revenge killer

Does the same things that the fake out set does bar fake out. It also allows for Lopunny to SubPass, a strategy very few think about, but it can save your mon from a revenge killer or give set up sweeper a free boost. Sub encore lets you deal with Stall easier, and sets up in te face of common hazards setters. Sub PuP lets you wallbreak A lot easier, as a +1 HJK can 2HKO phys def Skarmory and bulky M-scizor.+1 Return 2HKOs both M-sableye and non-Megabro.

moar calcs
+1 252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 160-189 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 186-220 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 223-264 (65 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
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Recreant said:
Stop this argument now.

Milotic is directly outclassed by a whole bunch of Pokémon in OU. Keldeo is a prime example who has Calm Mind and dual STABs. It also has a way to boost its special defensive with Calm Mind as well. That's if you really want to use the Competitve set, which is outclassed by many more bulky Water types. The Marvel Scale, bulky set is far better. If you want to abuse Defog, use Bisharp. No matter how cool Competitive is, other than that single niche, Milotic has little use in OU and I will not be adding it. This is a rare exception, but Milotic has never been to solid in my eyes.

A note for other people: The Pokémon does not have to be on the viability rankings. It just has to be viable.
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So you're comparing Milotic and Keldeo? Two mons that do two completely different things but happen to be the same type. Ok. clearly I don't understand what this thread was for.
 
swagilyph said:
So you're comparing Milotic and Keldeo? Two mons that do two completely different things but happen to be the same type. Ok. clearly I don't understand what this thread was for.
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You're using the offensive Competitive set, which is bad to begin with. I might have considered the bulky Marvel Scale set, but even that's iffy. Keldeo is a much better special sweeper than Milotic could ever dream.
We need to just stop arguing here. If you want to complain more, do it via PM or somewhere else, this thread is getting cluttered.

swagilyph said:
The post was not meant to be a sweeper that's what you're confusing. Just because you don't like competitive compared to marvel scale doesnt take away from the viability of the set I posted. The fact that you compare Keldeo and Milotic as if they're the same mon makes you look like an idiot. "offensive Competitive set" it has full hp/def/spdef evs ffs.
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Ok, I'm not even going to bother answering this in another post, since you're blind to the post I just made.
You're being extremely rude about this, so I'm not going to talk. Milotic will not be added to the OP.
 
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Recreant said:
You're using the offensive Competitive set, which is bad to begin with. I might have considered the bulky Marvel Scale set, but even that's iffy. Keldeo is a much better special sweeper than Milotic could ever dream.
We need to just stop arguing here. If you want to complain more, do it via PM or somewhere else, this thread is getting cluttered.
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The post was not meant to be a sweeper that's what you're confusing. Just because you don't like competitive compared to marvel scale doesnt take away from the viability of the set I posted. The fact that you compare Keldeo and Milotic as if they're the same mon makes you look like an idiot. "offensive Competitive set" it has full hp/def/spdef evs ffs.
 
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