I've said numerous times I can't play with inactives
I devote proper time to the game to solve and iso and reevaluate and get too toxic when other people don't do the same.
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NOC Low Power Mafia -- Mafia Win
- Thread starter Celever
- Start date
I devote proper time to the game to solve and iso and reevaluate and get too toxic when other people don't do the same.
des121 good job for this btw!!! Love the vibe reads
I understand the passion and veracity behind your post but it’s not really one that encourages me to sign up and play again if I’m going to be battered from someone just armcharing in graveyard.
We have shit games, (and a deep sorry ofc to everyone on my alignment, like I haven’t played town solo in about two years) and I’m certain something like this is incredibly unfun to watch from a distance or even to play with for some people who definitely just got iced out - lots of ways how I approached this game was wrong and it led to me being a very incorrect and, worse, very loud while doing so.
But you have kinder ways to help people get better without going “Town blew ass again and it’s heavily disappointing to me!”
Ggs guys regardless thanks for the game
Look I don't want "lol this noob town" to continue being a circus meme but it's been one since before you came to circus. I try to offer what advice I can to players of both alignments to improve their game next time. Maybe I am too blunt about it but it is pretty difficult to watch multiple PoE villagers have their attempts to save themselves completely disregarded and be accused of being mafia every time they suggest the people who are actually scum, are scum. Several of the votes felt like foregone conclusions when the days began. If people aren't willing to reevaluate, that's a big feelsbad for people who didn't get mech cleared early. I guess des was reevaluated but she was not the right one to reeval lol
Which is something I've done. I've clowned on people I scumread who were actually town and looked foolish for it. It's hard when you're in the game and don't know who to trust. But at a certain point when things aren't making sense you need to rewiden your perspective. The dead villagers deserve that effort imo.
Which is something I've done. I've clowned on people I scumread who were actually town and looked foolish for it. It's hard when you're in the game and don't know who to trust. But at a certain point when things aren't making sense you need to rewiden your perspective. The dead villagers deserve that effort imo.
nobody plays to lose. i obviously didn’t throw on purpose, or want this to happen, so dont hide behind “im too blunt lol xd” - you just sounded like a dick and it doesn’t make approaching and playing any easier if we have vultures like you in the graveyard with full setup knowledge ready to feast on people who are obviously going to be sheepish anyway when their conclusion was wrong.
Hi this was a really fun game!
Listen to quiet town literally des had perfect reads in late game, JALMONT and AG were also good examples of quiet town who frankly shouldn’t have been voted.
Ngl when I got to graveyard I was shook that NE was scum, but glad to see that at least one of my guy reads was right. Next game I WILL be obnoxiously pushing my reads!
Thanks for the great game Cel and Sunny
Listen to quiet town literally des had perfect reads in late game, JALMONT and AG were also good examples of quiet town who frankly shouldn’t have been voted.
Ngl when I got to graveyard I was shook that NE was scum, but glad to see that at least one of my guy reads was right. Next game I WILL be obnoxiously pushing my reads!
Thanks for the great game Cel and Sunny
Dawg I'm not out to feast on anyone
I see certain players continually be talked over and their reads ignored in multiple games on circus. It's not fair to those villagers they are struggling to find their voice and more confident players talk over them or don't really engage with their reads.
And its a mutual problem at times because when they are asked "why do you think X is scum" they often struggle to produce a traditonally-compelling case on it, so they get written off again due to the cobbled-together reasoning they provided. But if there is a bit of an attitude problem about just plain talking around certain other players and never trying to dig deeper into their reads, especially their variance from others' poes, thats not cool for those players who don't yet know how to pull sway. Similarly, those players need to work on developing their in-thread arguments so other villagers can find their logic.
It's alright to be in your feels about how the game went but don't mischaracterize my intent.
Thanks, this is a way better way of saying what you wanted to
I watched without spoilers. I know its easy to critique from outside the game. But I did play and this did sting like a loss to me.
Giving Nuxl dictatorial power over the thread was not the way to go. I'm exaggerating obviously, but people were openly calling for Nuxl to make the decisions at least the 2nd to last day, so its not a totally unreasonable assessment. Yes he was conftown. Like Yeti said, conftown doesn't always have correct reads. In fact I think it might be harder to get reads in that scenario because people will inherently interact with you differently. It was somewhat natural for Apricity to just be Nuxl's sidekick this game and it was extremely difficulty to read apricity IMO for that reason.
I know this is stating the obvious but the whole town needs to participate. A lot of townies did drop off at various points, Des was less proactive towards the end. I think Des did get voted because she stopped engaging live with people. But I think in her defense a lot of that was because of the town leader dynamic and Des was just acquiescing to The Plan in her own way. Moral of the story is don't have only one person set the tempo for the thread. Even if that person is town, its important to have people interact with the thread. This game carried a sense of inevitability where everyone basically was just following The Plan. I know apricity contributed to that, but also so did a lot of townies. I had a scumread on alice late game precisely because she was encouraging The Plan, even despite having some other opinions.
We need to stop focusing on pairing/unpairings in the early/mid game. Find the person most likely to be scum and vote that person. Its ok to do this in the late game because as the game closes, mafia is probably moving to more specific plans to close the game out. I think it was very reasonable to suspect in the late game that the last two mafia were not bussing each other. Because when you are at the end of the game and potentially one lynch away from winning, you just play for it. Lechen actually almost got there with Des by asserting that multiple people weren't paired with Des (which should have heavily implied its because Des is TOWN). In this case he was correct about Des not being paired with people but drew the wrong conclusion anyways. But before that last few days, there was still a lot of discussion about pairings within the PoE which was ultimately confusing.
The Chicken nameslip case was actually spot on and the sort of discovery that should be QL'd without any defense allowed.
Giving Nuxl dictatorial power over the thread was not the way to go. I'm exaggerating obviously, but people were openly calling for Nuxl to make the decisions at least the 2nd to last day, so its not a totally unreasonable assessment. Yes he was conftown. Like Yeti said, conftown doesn't always have correct reads. In fact I think it might be harder to get reads in that scenario because people will inherently interact with you differently. It was somewhat natural for Apricity to just be Nuxl's sidekick this game and it was extremely difficulty to read apricity IMO for that reason.
I know this is stating the obvious but the whole town needs to participate. A lot of townies did drop off at various points, Des was less proactive towards the end. I think Des did get voted because she stopped engaging live with people. But I think in her defense a lot of that was because of the town leader dynamic and Des was just acquiescing to The Plan in her own way. Moral of the story is don't have only one person set the tempo for the thread. Even if that person is town, its important to have people interact with the thread. This game carried a sense of inevitability where everyone basically was just following The Plan. I know apricity contributed to that, but also so did a lot of townies. I had a scumread on alice late game precisely because she was encouraging The Plan, even despite having some other opinions.
We need to stop focusing on pairing/unpairings in the early/mid game. Find the person most likely to be scum and vote that person. Its ok to do this in the late game because as the game closes, mafia is probably moving to more specific plans to close the game out. I think it was very reasonable to suspect in the late game that the last two mafia were not bussing each other. Because when you are at the end of the game and potentially one lynch away from winning, you just play for it. Lechen actually almost got there with Des by asserting that multiple people weren't paired with Des (which should have heavily implied its because Des is TOWN). In this case he was correct about Des not being paired with people but drew the wrong conclusion anyways. But before that last few days, there was still a lot of discussion about pairings within the PoE which was ultimately confusing.
The Chicken nameslip case was actually spot on and the sort of discovery that should be QL'd without any defense allowed.
All right, Eli’s been getting too much bullshit from the peanut gallery. Are you telling me something different would have happened outcome wise if you paid more attention to the reads of other players in town?
He put himself out there to try to win. This time he didn’t. Last time he did and next time he will. He had an off game and he still did better than everyone else. Relax.
Fwiw I don't think its fair to say that nuxl is a big reason for this loss.
The last time smogon town won in noc was February this year, and before that it took them 4-5 years to win. And eli didn't play half of those. So clearly its something else. Probably that people have a hard time reading associations/don't think about mechanical clears as often as they should, lets remember that noc is a much harder game at thinking about certainties than oc is.
The last time smogon town won in noc was February this year, and before that it took them 4-5 years to win. And eli didn't play half of those. So clearly its something else. Probably that people have a hard time reading associations/don't think about mechanical clears as often as they should, lets remember that noc is a much harder game at thinking about certainties than oc is.
You played great man. I’m really happy you played. You made this game really fun and I know you have everything you had
Average smogon postgame
i don't think anyone IS saying it
if any one villager is given as much sway as "i'm leaving it up to nuxl to pick" as eli was by other villagers, that was a choice the other villagers made, him being a PR and thus cleared notwithstanding. it's certainly unfortunate for village win con his reads were treated as golden above other villagers' in a game where he did not catch the realiti bussers but nobody is putting the loss mainly on him. there was a shared lack of expanding the poe and reeval as the misvotes piled up, alongside the misclearing due to bussing and utter refusal by most of the village to consider that by asking "why would NE bus realiti" as they place NE in their highest town pool (despite NE having posted about 5 posts total since that wall), they have answered their own question.
why WOULD scum do X?
because you're willing to give them a false clear for it. NOC is not won by having every member of your scumteam alive. it's won by reaching parity with the village. you can jettison all but one member of your team if the last one can win at f3. successfully distancing yourself such that the bus is difficult to catch is a skill in and of itself, and successfully bussing in a manner that isn't easy to point to is its own art as well (for example, the most common being always having your scumbuddy as the second scumread in your lowest poe pool, and moving a villager below them as your 'main target.' if that buddy finally does flip, you say "see i scumread them every day!" but you always pushed a villager to be voted before that teammate). i have lost a game misclearing the surviving wagon of a s/s day that nobody presumed was a s/s day and i am no longer willing to make such definitive pre-flip presumptions of the surviving wagon's townhood. until you see the flip, you never REALLY know what the other wagon's alignment was (barring mech).
treating players as essentially policy misvotes every game (because you don't trust them at lylo) is very problematic for community health. in turn, players who are repeatedly misvoted each game need to look at their own actions and see how they can help other villagers find them better. there is a disconnect on both sides where the same villagers are not being found by most of the rest of the town, and this is a throughline in multiple NOCs.
the hero shot on tommy (when following his suggestion of shooting the counterwagon of NE would completely evaporate misclearing NE all game and reveal that scum did bus realiti) is probably the biggest single take-back the village wishes it could have.
I wanted to shoutout realiti in particular this game for staying active in the scum chat and pointing out a few key insights without which we would not have won. He played his role really well and even late into the game people were pointing to his anti-spew and drawing the wrong conclusions from it.
NE, BD both played well. Great first game from thechickening, sorry about being spewed, hope you return
NE, BD both played well. Great first game from thechickening, sorry about being spewed, hope you return
This was a complete lie as I didn't know zuko before this game and accidentally spewed them as mafia, props to them for the save and surviving two day cycles
GGWP everyone
I do think Smogon town in general would benefit from moving away from playing so heavily around PoEs since one misscleared mafia can be disastrous. Obvious hyperbole, but finding one mafia is easier than finding 16 town. I think to play heavily for PoE you also have to rereading like, constantly and my impression is that most people don’t do that here (not just from this game, but even PMD2 maf which town won). Totally get why that isn’t appealing in a 200 page thread but maybe that’s a separate spamposting problem, I dunno.
Something I think went under-discussed was how Bluedoom was kind of just chill letting anything happen and post-flip this should’ve set off alarm bells that the PoE was a bit stinky. I think only Nuxl ever acknowledged how NE’s posts since the initial bus were not good, but if town is eating itself alive, not rocking the boat is a pretty good play. hal also steered the thread very well - I think him being a dominant voice made it tough for town to course correct and until the day before last I don’t think he even gave much info on a flip even if people did catch on.
I think this was a tough game though and idk if I would’ve done any better than the townies. Shoutouts to Jalmont for maintaining his 100% vig hitrate, not counting any vigs he may have missed when I wasn’t looking, those aren’t real.
Something I think went under-discussed was how Bluedoom was kind of just chill letting anything happen and post-flip this should’ve set off alarm bells that the PoE was a bit stinky. I think only Nuxl ever acknowledged how NE’s posts since the initial bus were not good, but if town is eating itself alive, not rocking the boat is a pretty good play. hal also steered the thread very well - I think him being a dominant voice made it tough for town to course correct and until the day before last I don’t think he even gave much info on a flip even if people did catch on.
I think this was a tough game though and idk if I would’ve done any better than the townies. Shoutouts to Jalmont for maintaining his 100% vig hitrate, not counting any vigs he may have missed when I wasn’t looking, those aren’t real.
wait i made 1 good post the streak continuesokay I have put in less work in this thread than ive been meaning to,
first gonna try tracing ck wagon
DBD page 8-9 felt rough, I can't really disagree with anything they've said, because "performative" is subjective without deeper explanation, and "self-aware scum" is like... you could say that, yeah, but im not really convinced. everything else is either futher pressure on ck or filler
Skipper
post 1:https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/low-power-mafia-day-1.3754379/page-9#post-10327982
I think this is fine, was going bak and forth on if I really wanted answers on the af read, but for the most part, af has been promoting a lot of good discussion while dissuading "easy mafia pitfalls", so like, yeah, read's fine.
post 2:https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/low-power-mafia-day-1.3754379/page-9#post-10327989
I NEED explanation on the flandrs read because it feels like it's half onto something because I agree with the vibe but I think those are the wrong words to describe why its towny.
post 3:https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/low-power-mafia-day-1.3754379/page-10#post-10328013
this post sucks, it's literally wordy to be wordy. I include it here because i want it known to not talk like this
post 4:https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/low-power-mafia-day-1.3754379/page-18#post-10328535
didn't rub me the wrong way until the ck part, id have expected the read on ck to be walked back after someone said that ck played mafia on a diff site before this one, but maybe im thinking for people too much. Don't think this is good reasoning for a ck vote across the iso tbh.
Lechen
(theres other posts that can be analyzed and i invite other people to do so because I personally dont want to analyze shorter posts mired in thread context. that being said I felt like even including the 2-3 posts that id say fit that description they've been relatively uninvolved)
I really likke this post, because I don't disagree with it either. I probably should read the actual games being referenced to see if either are making arguments on toothpicks, but both tone and reasoning p good!
des
I will make this read d2 because i think going in depth would require reading the full thread.
I'm instead going to make a hypothesis on why they voted ck, based off this post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/low-power-mafia-day-1.3754379/post-10328273please correct me if you have other reasonsd of voting ck, but it feels like they personally have all three people here at lower nulls-ish, it's just that the thread has been putting emphasis on ck.
ck themselves (no they didnt self vote but its probably best to be included here instead of a diff wallpost)
Honestly i dont see a lot wrong with what theyve posted, while I don't necessarily disagree with the people above's interpretations of ck, when I look at it without that lens, it feels generically fine, and honestly one of the townier people based on the progress theyve been making feeling consistent and unforced. tldr, don't really agree with him being the top wagon.
Good game everyone and really well played mafia.
Sorry des I should have trusted my original read on you more, I didn't understand well your thoughts at the end even though you were completely right. Nuxl I think I did you wrong with my vote on des and kind of leaving it to you most of the time, AP post was right in that sense. You played well!
I was considering it after last game and that's why I originally didn't sign up for this one but this is likely my last NOC in a long time. While overall I had fun times in these games personally the time invested/fun and fun/frustration ratios are not the best for me, I'd rather spend my free time doing something else. This is not something bad about the players or hosts, I think they are cool people and games are well-thought, it just doesn't seem to be my kind of game. Honestly I don't want to put lower effort when I'm already struggling now, it's not fair for other players. Good luck and have fun in future games!
Sorry des I should have trusted my original read on you more, I didn't understand well your thoughts at the end even though you were completely right. Nuxl I think I did you wrong with my vote on des and kind of leaving it to you most of the time, AP post was right in that sense. You played well!
I was considering it after last game and that's why I originally didn't sign up for this one but this is likely my last NOC in a long time. While overall I had fun times in these games personally the time invested/fun and fun/frustration ratios are not the best for me, I'd rather spend my free time doing something else. This is not something bad about the players or hosts, I think they are cool people and games are well-thought, it just doesn't seem to be my kind of game. Honestly I don't want to put lower effort when I'm already struggling now, it's not fair for other players. Good luck and have fun in future games!
Mfw the postgame arguments are more fun to watch than the game itself 
Now that it's over, I need to air something out. I subbed out because I rolled scum. At the time I told myself I was just losing motivation to post because IRL was getting busy; that was and is true, but it's rarely gotten in the way of these games before, and in reality I just did not want to play scum again. This was an unacceptable decision and it forced Celever to contaminate his game with a swap, which I wouldn't wish on anyone. I will not be signing up for future NOCs until I'm prepared for any alignment.
At least hal had fun
Now that it's over, I need to air something out. I subbed out because I rolled scum. At the time I told myself I was just losing motivation to post because IRL was getting busy; that was and is true, but it's rarely gotten in the way of these games before, and in reality I just did not want to play scum again. This was an unacceptable decision and it forced Celever to contaminate his game with a swap, which I wouldn't wish on anyone. I will not be signing up for future NOCs until I'm prepared for any alignment.
At least hal had fun