It also feels like Giratina is helped by being more mechanically distinct between forms. It gets to have the sprite/model reflect dropping a generic "this has power" Ability in Pressure for Levitate. Meanwhile, short of a type change, there really wasn't much the PLA battle system could use to make Dialga and Palkia's origin formes different since it doesn't have Abilities and stat distribution is out of whack.
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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
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i am fine with origin dialga and palkia design wise but why are their mechanics so lame. no different ability, almost entirely irrelevant stat changes that don't give them a different role from the altered (tangent: do we call those first forms altered for dialga and palkia too?) forms... very underwhelming
Before I get into the Origin talk, a brief annoyance of mine: Why can Alolan Raichu still not be evolved in a post-Gen 7 game? I don't just want catches off raids, give me the ability to Evolve a shiny Pikachu I got in Go or while wandering around Paldea. This is particularly annoying because Exeggutor can be evolved in the Gen 9 Terrarium, but Pikachu and Koffing cannot despite being in the game as well (I dislike it with the Hisuian forms but that I guess has the cynical explanation of PLA being recent). This is particularly annoying in the Alolans' case since they can't be backported from Home-era games to evolve and then returned like the Legends Arceus mons.
Even compared to Giratina the forms are also just not changed the same: Giratina's Origin form is more aerodynamic and Levitate gives it the sense it's more efficient in the Distortion World, while I don't really know what Palkia and Dialga are supposed to insinuate about the dimension where they take those forms. Not to mention statwise, Giratina ostensibly changes roles from a Defensive to Offensive mon with the stat swaps, while Palkia and Dialga get some minor optimization but by all accounts are meant to work the same as they already did (Bulky/Fast Special attackers).
Something I think the presentation of the Origins needed was to just assume that form the second the "final" boss one showed up in that first cutscene, rather than their usual form and becoming Origin for some reason after attacking the player and its counterpart (or just have both in their Origin forms in general).
Even compared to Giratina the forms are also just not changed the same: Giratina's Origin form is more aerodynamic and Levitate gives it the sense it's more efficient in the Distortion World, while I don't really know what Palkia and Dialga are supposed to insinuate about the dimension where they take those forms. Not to mention statwise, Giratina ostensibly changes roles from a Defensive to Offensive mon with the stat swaps, while Palkia and Dialga get some minor optimization but by all accounts are meant to work the same as they already did (Bulky/Fast Special attackers).
Giratina took its form to handle Distortion World, the other 2 took their forms to be like their dad so I think differences in aesthetic are fine. Honestly feel like it makes more sense to be called "Origin" for the pair rather than Giratina who only took on that form after being banished to the Distortion World.
I think it's a shame that SV didn't try to experiment more the Roar of Time/Spacial Rend changes the Origins got. They were basic for LA (Roar got a power boost and accuracy drop, Rend got a power/accuracy drop but more crit and both got new animations) but seemed like a fun avenue to explore more in a proper game. Shadow Force also had changes (more power, took longer to go off, less accuracy) so sure Origin Giratina coudl get in on the fun to.
I think it's a shame that SV didn't try to experiment more the Roar of Time/Spacial Rend changes the Origins got. They were basic for LA (Roar got a power boost and accuracy drop, Rend got a power/accuracy drop but more crit and both got new animations) but seemed like a fun avenue to explore more in a proper game. Shadow Force also had changes (more power, took longer to go off, less accuracy) so sure Origin Giratina coudl get in on the fun to.
Yeah, this is how I feel about them too. Cool designs, but they’re disappointing in that they’re like only a notch above Resolute Keldeo in terms of doing anything new with the Pokémon.
Or, I should say, they are even more disappointing as of SV. At least in LA, the lack of any change in Ability didn’t make for a functional difference, and they did at least have different effects for their signature moves depending on what form they were in, as I mentioned above. But that’s gone now, so in SV they’re literally just a slight stat shift.
(As for what the original forms are called, the internal data didn’t retroactively label them as “Altered Forme” or anything like that. Base Dialga and Palkia are still listed like most other formless Pokémon are, with no specific name given to the base form. The official sites and apps like HOME also never gave them a new form name.)
You can’t evolve Exeggcute into Alolan Exeggutor in the Terarium. Alolan Exeggutor can only be caught there, so there’s no special exception being made. I agree it is annoying, though. We really do need something like a “[Region] Stone” for cases like this.
I suspect that’s not really what they’re going for. I feel like the idea with Dialga and Palkia’s Origin Formes is more to tie in with the Diamond and Pearl Clans mistaking them for “Almighty Sinnoh.” Their vague resemblance to Arceus might have made the Clans think, “Oh, yeah, the stories we’ve heard do describe something like this, so this creature must be the Almighty Sinnoh.”
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everstone-like items that force a mon to evolve into (or hatch from a egg if held by the mother) a non-native regional form. so simple that i don't believe it's not been thought of yet
Well, my issue with that idea is that I think it feels pretty lopsided. As it stands, there are three regions that have evolution-only regional forms: Alola, Galar, and Hisui. Going down the list of treats…
- Alola: Big Malasada
- Galar: Doesn’t have a regional treat, because Curry occupied that role instead. They’d have to make a new item, like “Galarian Curry” or something
- Hisui: Probably wouldn’t use the Old Gateau since Hisui is, for all technical purposes, treated as a separate region, but I suppose you have the Jubilife Muffin, though it’s only been an item in Legends: Arceus, and frankly all of these items would need new artwork since SV didn’t include any of them, so it’s kind of like making a new item anyway…
I just feel like it’d be cleaner to make an Alola Stone, Galar Stone, and Hisui Stone specifically for this purpose (now you have a separate smaller set of items that are consistent with one another) and call it a day.
Some? You mean basically all, all the preexisting stones.
There would be 7 Hisui Stone evolutions compared to; Water Stone (6), Fire Stone (6), Thunder Stone (7), Leaf Stone (7), Moon Stone (6), Sun Stone (5), Shiny Stone (4), Dusk Stone (4), Dawn Stone (2), and Ice Stone (6).
Only Thunder and Leaf even match, and none exceed.
I counted 7, did you double up on Sliggoo & Goodra?
Regardless, the numbers are comically striking.
And a Galar Stone would be exactly as equal in power to the Dawn Stone...I've always been surprised the Dawn Stone never saw any further use. Guess they see the niche (gender-based split evolution of a line that already could evolve regardless of gender) as too iron clad for new Pokemon lines to bother with.
Sleep condition in games and paralysis in TCG
I came up with what I thought was a cool ability for an alternate Diagla form (basically a field effect that checks the turn counter twice at the end of each turn and removes the charge/recharge for moves like Roar of Time), so naturally I was disappointed by Pressure again lol.
(Couldn't come up with anything cool for Palkia other than field-wide No Guard.)
>Make a console with two screens
>put a Pokémon game on it
>innovate a UI where the current party and their health and status are on the bottom screen and the rest of the game is the top screen, in the very first Pokémon game on the console
>never give the option in another ds or 3ds game
but thank god we have Pokémon Amie
>put a Pokémon game on it
>innovate a UI where the current party and their health and status are on the bottom screen and the rest of the game is the top screen, in the very first Pokémon game on the console
>never give the option in another ds or 3ds game
but thank god we have Pokémon Amie
Speaking of the origin forms, I wanna vent about Origin form Dialga. I hate this thing, I think it looks awful, it looks like they took Dialga cool chest plate and have choke on it. And the coloring of all cobalt blue with a random gradient with its legs and tail tips make this thing just look ugly. I hate it, it’s bar non my least favourite design, which is a shame because Altered Dialga is one of my absolutely favourites.
But what really bugs me is how infuriatingly simple it would be to make the design go from absolutely terrible to actually pretty good, and it’s with a simple texture change. That is, bring back the coolest part of Dialgas design, the metal pieces and make them look like it’s actually metal, instead of freakishly shaped flesh.
And god damn it, it looks amazing now, Palkia I can begrudgingly say I was ok with after a year of stewing and having an actually good texture work, but if Origin Dialga had this as it’s texturing I would actually like it from minute 1.
Props to Twitter user @JadedArtistGal for doing this, because god damn it’s perfect and I hate how it’s not official.
Shame it’s so bad though competitively, there’s honestly no saving that outside of a brand new really good ability, like something that removes recharging/charging turns.
Or a great idea I saw, have it prevent timers from starting or ticking down, keeping Screens or weather up permanently until it leaves or prevent weather or screens from even setting while it’s in the field. They also have Palkia-o an amazing shadow tag+No guard type of ability for the entire field while it’s there, though to balance that out in any way you’d need it to not affect OHKO moves.
But what really bugs me is how infuriatingly simple it would be to make the design go from absolutely terrible to actually pretty good, and it’s with a simple texture change. That is, bring back the coolest part of Dialgas design, the metal pieces and make them look like it’s actually metal, instead of freakishly shaped flesh.
Props to Twitter user @JadedArtistGal for doing this, because god damn it’s perfect and I hate how it’s not official.
Shame it’s so bad though competitively, there’s honestly no saving that outside of a brand new really good ability, like something that removes recharging/charging turns.
Or a great idea I saw, have it prevent timers from starting or ticking down, keeping Screens or weather up permanently until it leaves or prevent weather or screens from even setting while it’s in the field. They also have Palkia-o an amazing shadow tag+No guard type of ability for the entire field while it’s there, though to balance that out in any way you’d need it to not affect OHKO moves.
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Why would Origin Dialga and Palkia have brand new abilities? Origin Giratina just got Levitate. They'd probably just get like Filter and Speed Boost or something like that if they'd done anything.
Don't forget, this would also apply to, say, getting a Kantonian Mr. Mime in Galar (if this functionality existed). The concept is to make these forms more accessible without adding even more items.
Fair point about curry/Hisui, though.
but levitate is a good ability! it doesn't need to be new and signature, it just needs to be good and give them a different role. those two examples actually work (speed boost is too good actually...)
True, that is an edge case that would have to be considered. But given that it would only ever occur in games set in the Galar region — which I’m going to roughly estimate as being something we probably won’t see terribly often — it might be justifiable to just… not bother with it, in those instances. It’s not ideal, but Pokémon certainly isn’t a stranger to making dismissive exceptions to get around technical inconveniences (Shedinja, Spinda, USUM Totems, basically everything about the relationship between HOME and BDSP).
(Though funny enough, this actually was possible in a roundabout way in Sword & Shield, thanks to another infamous set of legacy items: Incenses. Or at least, the mechanics behind them. While any Mime Jr. that evolves in Galar will become a Galarian Mr. Mime, breeding a Kantonian Mr. Mime that’s holding an Everstone produces an egg containing Kantonian Mr. Mime, since the Everstone retains the parent’s form, and the Mr. Mime would need to be holding an Odd Incense in order for that egg to contain a Mime Jr. — that wouldn’t work nowadays, since SV retired the Incense mechanic, but still, it was a funny little quirk at the time.)
They add new items every generation anyway. If they’re adding items that are pretty much guaranteed to get long-term use, I don’t see the problem.
Incidentally, the regional treats are an illustrative example of poor consideration when it comes to adding items. They were added one by one over the generations entirely for the purposes of flavor, with no particular thought given to any future functionality or consistency. As a result, they ended up retconning the Rage Candy Bar into one of them, then retroactively added one for Kanto (Pewter Crunchies) in LGPE, added a unique treat for Hisui even though the Old Gateau is craftable in Legends: Arceus, and then just retired them altogether in SV, because at the end of the day they were still just nine different ways of saying “Full Heal.”
What we have there is cautionary tale about how to slowly create a problem for yourself in the future. On the other hand, regional evolutions are a problem right now, and they require a solution that can be relied upon for the foreseeable future. Adding a few items designed to solve that problem before the issue bloats is simply being proactive.
Sir if GameFreaks had ever been actually proactive in the way they design their games to avoid bloat, not only we'd never have had the Dexit shitshow (because full portability would have never happened in first place), but 99% of the problems the games have by now wouldn't exist.
You can hope for a lot of improvements from them, but long term thinking and futureproofing are two I would not put my money on.
yeah, i don't think more usable items is a problem. if there is a mechanical need, create them. we could probably do with a lot less crafting materials and ingredients, though...
Not entirely, mostly because of Meowth, and of course there's nothing stopping them from adding another regional form of a Pokémon that already has one again. And the concept in general looks to the future for if/when they add more regionals.
(Posted too early, oops)
I definitely thought about the regional treats being an example of item bloat, and giving them this potential use would fix for that, to an extent (it's still 9 different Full Heals, but they're cute from a flavor perspective, IMO). Of course my suggestion doesn't address regional forms that encompass entire lines, which... is definitely a problem. One could give the Pokémon to breed the appropriate treat to hold, but that's unusual functionality for a set of items that have up to this point not had that.
Ironically, this could be a place where incenses may actually be useful again. Not the same ones, mind you, but multiple representing particular regions. And I'm not necessarily against the addition of "stones" to evolve regional Pokémon (inasmuch as the items aren't all actually stones, but we're using that term to mean "consumable item that makes a Pokémon evolve when used"), but I am against adding items just to evolve one Pokémon with no other functionality. As you noted, these hypothetical items would evolve multiple species, making them more justifiable than recent items like Applin's apples, Duraludon's alloy, Black Augurite, and the Peat Block (there's no real distinction between use-to-evolve items and hold-item-and-trade-to-evolve items as far as this goes).
I guess I'm mentally pushing back against the idea because I have problems with how regionals are executed and find it mildly annoying how people focus on them. This issue with them being a pain to breed in foreign regions could be rectified by regional forms having their own distinct dex number (as I think they should be, even if doing so messes with how they're considered regional forms in the first place). The regional evolution problem, on the other hand, reminds me of the ol' Moss/Icy Rocks and magnetic field locations up until Gen 8.
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The existence of the PP Max in later games. I am lousy with articulating my thoughts so it may be awkward for me as I try to explain why. It's existence is borderline redundant these days as PP Ups have been getting easier and easier to acquire in large numbers and feels like its the only reason the weaker version hasn't been upgraded to use multiple at once like Rare Candies were. For most content these days, the PP resource management wouldn't be something that comes to mind outside of higher end raids and your its outright refreshed after a fight when doing gauntlets like Wyndon Tournaments in SwSh and Academy Ace Tournament in S/V as well as after every fight in Blueberry Clubroom, but its a different matter if you're preparing a mon for competitive environments. I could say more but my brain is turning into mush and I already feel lousy knowing I have to make three times as many button inputs just to validate the existence of an item that is rarely obtainable depending on the game.
This could have been twice as long, but I didn't want to waste anyone's time with a wall of text. Tldr: PP Maxes are less useful as PP Ups become easier to get and the only reason it exists nowadays is saving button presses. This probably doubles as a silly unpopular take too, but I wanted to say it since I rarely speak out on personal thoughts with this game's design choices.
This could have been twice as long, but I didn't want to waste anyone's time with a wall of text. Tldr: PP Maxes are less useful as PP Ups become easier to get and the only reason it exists nowadays is saving button presses. This probably doubles as a silly unpopular take too, but I wanted to say it since I rarely speak out on personal thoughts with this game's design choices.