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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??
- Thread starter Thorns
- Start date
Mana regen kind of sucks so it looks like champions with innate mana regen (stuff like Veigar), champions that don't need mana (Azir), or resourceless champions (Zed) are going to do well. Also, RIP spell vamp I have no idea what Riot's going to do to Vlad to compensate.
Taric can be oversexualized but Tracer can't have a butt victory pose.
Serious note - I am so glad what they did with Armor of the 5th Age Taric.
it depends. tank meta is prevalent rn, in that any champion can build full health items adn be ok (tank vayne jg that builds devourer / frozzen mallet / deadmans / more tank and destroys), or any champ can build iceborn gauntlet / sunfire cape / spirit visage and be a tier 1 top laner.
assassins aren't as good anymore bc of the meta being mobile carries / control mages, so in competitive league people see less leblancs / zeds / yasuos / talons / ahris than they used to in season 4, and instead control and support mages like lissandra / lulu are high priority picks.
imo adcs are the most diverse role, literally anything is viable if you're good enough. Lucian / ezreal are top picks but as an anecdote, i was recently in a tournament locally where i played adc for a team (we won!!) and i saw MF / Jinx / Lucian / Ezreal / Vayne / Tristana / Ashe / Sivir / Jhin / Ggraves sooo at least in competitive (at a lower elo level, not challenger level) a lot of stuff is viable.
on other news TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM
Did Immortals prepare at all for the playoffs? Terrible pick/ban in every game after having 3 weeks to watch quarterfinals and other regions (Korea/China) should have been more than enough for them to analyze the metagame and come up with solid teamcomps. TSM seemed more prepared, though they didn't have to try that hard considering IMT just gave them Haunterz best champion (Maokai) every time for free...
The thing that seems most outrageous to me is Immortals not picking Ekko AT ALL. I mean, Huni played it once in the split, when it was an obscure pick (hadn't received all the buffs yet), and now when it's the most contested toplane pick in the meta they don't bother at all? And pick shitty stuff like Lucian?
I just... can't understand. Guess that Immortals going 17-1 was more about the rest of teams in NA being bad that them being good or something.
Still, I think it's good for NA as a region and for IMT themselves that they lost today, because they weren't going to make it far in international tournaments with this approach to the meta, and the fact that no one in NA was able to abuse IMT flaws and one-sided playstyle until now was really concerning.
The thing that seems most outrageous to me is Immortals not picking Ekko AT ALL. I mean, Huni played it once in the split, when it was an obscure pick (hadn't received all the buffs yet), and now when it's the most contested toplane pick in the meta they don't bother at all? And pick shitty stuff like Lucian?
I just... can't understand. Guess that Immortals going 17-1 was more about the rest of teams in NA being bad that them being good or something.
Still, I think it's good for NA as a region and for IMT themselves that they lost today, because they weren't going to make it far in international tournaments with this approach to the meta, and the fact that no one in NA was able to abuse IMT flaws and one-sided playstyle until now was really concerning.
TreeSM bois.
Huni's lack of adaptability really crushed Immortals today. I watched parts of Game 2 and 3 and Huni just went full on tilt afterwards. I actually felt bad for Reignover in Game 1 because he tried so hard on the map control and the last teamfight he made a Grave mistake.
I mean not to say Pobelter and others' weren't doing much better or worse, but Huni really should have just busted Top Ekko and went to town or at least built more tanky with his adcs. He had Death's Dance, Maw, and Phantom Dancer I guess, but he kept going for Infinity Edge when, IMO, Sterak's or hell other lifesteal items might've been a better choice (double lifesteal at least kind of beats the Thornmail woes). No one building a Mortal Reminder in Game 1 was also ?_?
Huni's lack of adaptability really crushed Immortals today. I watched parts of Game 2 and 3 and Huni just went full on tilt afterwards. I actually felt bad for Reignover in Game 1 because he tried so hard on the map control and the last teamfight he made a Grave mistake.
I mean not to say Pobelter and others' weren't doing much better or worse, but Huni really should have just busted Top Ekko and went to town or at least built more tanky with his adcs. He had Death's Dance, Maw, and Phantom Dancer I guess, but he kept going for Infinity Edge when, IMO, Sterak's or hell other lifesteal items might've been a better choice (double lifesteal at least kind of beats the Thornmail woes). No one building a Mortal Reminder in Game 1 was also ?_?
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The 3x Karma pick and 3x not-tank-top picks were so disrespectful by IMT. They assumed they'd body FreeSM by being 17-1 in the regular season and they saw no need to adapt. CLG came with several counterpicks and champions to shift between due to bans. IMT just stuck with it. I really do think the Karma was a wasted support pick. If IMT had someone like Leona or Thresh to be tankier and ENGAGE because lawdy those guys were lacking decent engage/cc they would've fared better. Or........... if Huni stopped trying to make squish tops happen. The Maokai was full potato sitting in the middle of IMT sapping damage for a hot minute meanwhile the 3x ADCs weren't killing him, so, that's not working, and there was nobody to peel. Just poor pick/ban phase by IMT.
FreeSM sux but after seeing how rigid and presumptuous IMT were in that series l0l @ their loss. CLG pls touch the net ;~;
FreeSM sux but after seeing how rigid and presumptuous IMT were in that series l0l @ their loss. CLG pls touch the net ;~;
Immortals didnt understand the meta, but not only that, they also only prepared 1 teamcomp and used it in every game (and every game of the split to be fair). They had no way to react against picks that countered their comp.
There were people talking yesterday about how the fact that neither Huni nor Adrian want to play tanks forces Reignover to play tanks himself, which made him have losing jungler matchups, and therefore lose the early pressure which was what made Immortals win during the split. The Rek'Sai ban was very clever for this reason.
I think that for the most part this is the coaching staff fault, because IMT's p/b was the worst I have seen of any team in NA/EU playoffs, but the fact that Adrian seems to lack a champion pool, and Huni's feast or famine playstyle are a huge problem as well.
There were people talking yesterday about how the fact that neither Huni nor Adrian want to play tanks forces Reignover to play tanks himself, which made him have losing jungler matchups, and therefore lose the early pressure which was what made Immortals win during the split. The Rek'Sai ban was very clever for this reason.
I think that for the most part this is the coaching staff fault, because IMT's p/b was the worst I have seen of any team in NA/EU playoffs, but the fact that Adrian seems to lack a champion pool, and Huni's feast or famine playstyle are a huge problem as well.
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While everyone's bashing on IMT's bad picks, I'd like to offer a different perspective.
I think it's a bit unfair to say that IMT didn't know that the tank meta was coming. The resources were everywhere and everything pointed to that direction, and it would be silly to think that so many casuals know this over IMT's analysts. Even though Pobelter said in the postgame interview that they misread the meta, I think it wasn't due to not knowing that the tank meta exists. Either way, Pobelter at least implied that IMT got the picks they wanted.
IMT decided to try their hand at countering this meta, employing a heavy fast push strategy with triple ADC + Karma support and relying on the trademark snowballing strength of the team during the regular season and trying to end the game before Hauntzer could scale up and be immortal (no pun intended). Because Huni refuses to play tanks (this in itself is a large issue, however), IMT decided it's probably best to find an alternative playstyle. Apparently the strategy had success in scrims (I mean, they weren't just going to bring it out on stage right?), and vs. a team that had issues coordinating in the regular season, they thought it would be a good idea to pick the strat. And it was working for a while too, until they got Fnatic Deathbushed and then tilted the rest of the series.
Of course, this isn't to discredit TSM, who performed exceptionally in this series and withstood the early pressure and turned it around.
I'm just glad that Darshan can adapt to the tank meta.
I think it's a bit unfair to say that IMT didn't know that the tank meta was coming. The resources were everywhere and everything pointed to that direction, and it would be silly to think that so many casuals know this over IMT's analysts. Even though Pobelter said in the postgame interview that they misread the meta, I think it wasn't due to not knowing that the tank meta exists. Either way, Pobelter at least implied that IMT got the picks they wanted.
IMT decided to try their hand at countering this meta, employing a heavy fast push strategy with triple ADC + Karma support and relying on the trademark snowballing strength of the team during the regular season and trying to end the game before Hauntzer could scale up and be immortal (no pun intended). Because Huni refuses to play tanks (this in itself is a large issue, however), IMT decided it's probably best to find an alternative playstyle. Apparently the strategy had success in scrims (I mean, they weren't just going to bring it out on stage right?), and vs. a team that had issues coordinating in the regular season, they thought it would be a good idea to pick the strat. And it was working for a while too, until they got Fnatic Deathbushed and then tilted the rest of the series.
Of course, this isn't to discredit TSM, who performed exceptionally in this series and withstood the early pressure and turned it around.
I'm just glad that Darshan can adapt to the tank meta.
Yes, I am aware of that and that's why I put the emphasis in ''having only 1 teamcomp''. Despite the fact that, for better or worse, the current meta is pretty much defined by what is played in Korea, and the western teams are all basically following what is used there, I accept the fact that it is possible to innovate in some instances. For example, we saw CLG play Rageblade Tristana on Saturday, and EU teams trying Kassadin as a Lissandra counterpick. But it wasn't their only plan, and as soon as the teams saw that their unconventional pick didnt perform as well in stage as in scrims, they played something else.
So in that regard, I would have been ok with Immortals trying to play their 'anti-meta' comp, as long as they had a backup plan in case it didnt work as well as planned. On the first game, despite the 'Deatbush' thing and all that, Immortals had the least early game and jungle control in the entire split. That's why I blame the coaching team, because they had no backup plan for Rek'sai getting banned and Reignover having to suffer an unfavourable jungle matchup. Immortals should have looked at teams like ROX and G2, which have also been playing a snowball/skirmish style in their regions, but with much more flexibility in their picks.
For example, this happened to Cloud9 as well. They had a good gameplan prepared that involved using Twisted Fate and to a lesser extend Gangplank to create cross-map plays and advantages. It worked well one game, then Twisted Fate got banned the rest of the series, they had no backup plan and got destroyed.
Edit: Montecristo's analysis was quite accurate:
Edit2: Monte's in my head help :( https://twitter.com/MonteCristo/status/719557150305968129
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Gangplank + Gragas was a fine backup plan imo if we are to assume that IMT didn't want to do a tank top/carry jungle style given their comfort zone and success. It's not like both champs are bad or anything (nevermind the part where reignover is stuck on tank junglers because of Huni's inability to play tanks). The Urgot...okay I guess - it helps a bit with the extra frontline.
Game 2's failure for IMT mostly came from horrible execution. Huni just seemed really disjointed from the rest of the team in that game and fed. Pobelter's early roam didn't mean anything as Bjergsen was able to catch back up in a negative matchup and then successfully snowball while Pobelter couldn't. Bjergsen and Sven achieved critical mass and just did whatever they wanted.
Not sure what to think of the Game 3 prep though. They did get the Reksai they wanted and Graves top is still fairly strong, but in P&B seemed like they forgot that Maokai ran all over them in Game 1, and drafted a comp similar to Game 1 without first banning it.
Game 2's failure for IMT mostly came from horrible execution. Huni just seemed really disjointed from the rest of the team in that game and fed. Pobelter's early roam didn't mean anything as Bjergsen was able to catch back up in a negative matchup and then successfully snowball while Pobelter couldn't. Bjergsen and Sven achieved critical mass and just did whatever they wanted.
Not sure what to think of the Game 3 prep though. They did get the Reksai they wanted and Graves top is still fairly strong, but in P&B seemed like they forgot that Maokai ran all over them in Game 1, and drafted a comp similar to Game 1 without first banning it.
Honestly for Game 1 Reignover was controlling the jungle a lot better than Svenkerson despite lacking Rek'sai and having to use Gragas instead. But it was really shocking how the complete opposite happened by Game 3 when Rek'sai was actually obtained. They had absolutely no control of objectives and just were slowly killing themselves off.
I think in Game 1 their triple adc comp also could've worked if Lulu was banned. Even though Maokai was the #1 problem IMO Lulu and Braum really didn't help either since Braum passive offers stuns to help Maokai lockdown and the Shield just blocking really critical skillshots (Lucian R, Gragas R). Lulu's shielding and Wild Growth just make Maokai a goddamn monster on top of the Maokai kit. Just the chain throw in Game 1 (and I put a lot of it underestimating Hauntzer's Maokai) snowballed into Huni doing really bad things and then everyone doing bad things.
I agree Adrian's x3 Karma picks didn't help. Someone told me he used to play a lot of Leona too, though talking as a heavy user of Leona Kalista is a dick to a lot of Leona's kit because her engage and ultimate aren't fans of Kalista's constant attack move passive. Doublelift was also super keen on getting Quicksilver Sash rather quickly those games too. Especially Game 3 when Pobelter was on Lissandra. The Karma pick in Games 1 and 3 were fine (especially in Game 1).
Hopefully come later down the road Huni will be a bit more adaptable to the team and Adrian actually shows his "biggest champ pool in Supports" than just fucking Soraka / Janna / Karma.
[Youtube]
I think in Game 1 their triple adc comp also could've worked if Lulu was banned. Even though Maokai was the #1 problem IMO Lulu and Braum really didn't help either since Braum passive offers stuns to help Maokai lockdown and the Shield just blocking really critical skillshots (Lucian R, Gragas R). Lulu's shielding and Wild Growth just make Maokai a goddamn monster on top of the Maokai kit. Just the chain throw in Game 1 (and I put a lot of it underestimating Hauntzer's Maokai) snowballed into Huni doing really bad things and then everyone doing bad things.
I agree Adrian's x3 Karma picks didn't help. Someone told me he used to play a lot of Leona too, though talking as a heavy user of Leona Kalista is a dick to a lot of Leona's kit because her engage and ultimate aren't fans of Kalista's constant attack move passive. Doublelift was also super keen on getting Quicksilver Sash rather quickly those games too. Especially Game 3 when Pobelter was on Lissandra. The Karma pick in Games 1 and 3 were fine (especially in Game 1).
Hopefully come later down the road Huni will be a bit more adaptable to the team and Adrian actually shows his "biggest champ pool in Supports" than just fucking Soraka / Janna / Karma.
[Youtube]
Hey, back again for the CSL ro16 playoffs! Watch here!
Fun fact: User SilentVerse used to play for the opposing team beforegetting kicked having irl things to do or something
Fun fact: User SilentVerse used to play for the opposing team before
YOU ARE SUCH A KAWAII BOY ^.^
0k mister. tihs is yamface trademark. find ur own spamy emoji >:o
Leona is not a viable pick in competitive play because of various reasons (completely useless if behind, easy to counterpick, lacks peeling etc). Leona is also reliant on having a good lane matchup to snowball, and the fact that we are in a laneswap meta doesn't help.
As for ''it's fine to have Reignover play tanks''. We have seen for the last month that the meta has shifted towards carry junglers, and throughout the major regions the teams that weren't able to adapt have been losing more than winning. It's a fact that the top jungle picks are Nidalee, Graves and Kindred, due to superior clear speed, siege and pushing ability, and better early dueling and skirmishing. This, coupled with the fact that tank toplaners are sturdier than tank junglers (due to superior income) and their higher TP flanks impact, make Immortals set up an inefficient one.
Of course, it also came down to execution and IMT made mistakes there too, but it's not like TSM didn't make their fair share of mistakes either.
Though the post doesn't really show it (and this is due to not really illustrating it), what I should have said is "if he's played Leona there are likely tank supports he could have played as well."
I can't remember the bans on all of those games now, but Alistar or Braum (I do know YellowStar has Braum at one point) as examples would have helped.
I'll eat the words on this one, only because the one outlier I would have pointed out (Gragas) has also been on a losing streak in the Semis / 3rd Place run for Spring Split. The Teleport Flanks I admit are huge, and Huni finally playing a tank and letting Reignover play carry jungler showed they probably could have had a different outcome last week if they just adjusted to the meta as demonstrated by their Liquid sweep.
I was also very quick to point out TSM making sloppy mistakes - especially in game 1 where IMT actually had a standing chance to win just because they were executing a good split push game early on. They were rotating well and Reignover was doing well with Gragas in some of the skirmishes. But in teamfights Maokai eventually just outscaled and become a huge menace. TSM made some mistakes in Game 2, but by Game 3 most of TSMs mistakes were (almost) irrelevant by that point just because IMT was doing much worse in the mistake department.
I mean honestly if Immortals just played the meta instead of making a mockery of it I actually think they could have swept TSM under the rug again, or at least made it a much closer game. I wouldn't have even been mad if they opened with their Game 1 comp and lost so long as they swapped to a more meta comp after that.
*Looks forlornly at r/DoubleliftsTrophyCase*
don't see NA placing higher than any other team at MSI except for the international team. G2 will probably be right above them, or maybe above China if they pull something hot out. Flash Wolves will be right under Korea (Probably the Tigers), who are my #1 going into this.
tldr
1. korea
2. taiwan
3. china/eu
4. china/eu
5. na
6. iwci
tldr
1. korea
2. taiwan
3. china/eu
4. china/eu
5. na
6. iwci
Hauntzer's engage seemed really poor in that last teamfight game 5, the rest of the team was right outside dragon pit and he jumps in past the river bush and tries to 1v5 in mid lane until the team showed up... His ult was actually great but it didn't look like TSM properly capitalized on it.