Latias

[AccidentalGreed]

Bumping to challenge the use of Latias.

So lately, I'm having doubts with using any kind of defensive CM Latias at all. Generally, I don't really like how Latias is being passed around as if it were the greatest "glue sweeper" in existence. There's just so many threats in the OU metagame prepared to face any kind of Latias. Using the standard/defensive CM set means Latias just isn't threatening enough without a few boosts, which isn't good considering even at +2, Latias's offense isn't solid enough to KO some offensive Pokemon. As for Latias's fourth slot, I'm going to lay it all out:

Using Hidden Power Fire? Look out for status (especially Toxic from Toed) and rain Ferrothorn headed your way. It doesn't even scratch steel-types in the rain.

Using Refresh? Cool, you presumably beat Blissey and other stall-based Pokemon. Good luck actually trying to sponge all those U-turns, Body Slams, and Crunches aimed at you.

Surf? Like this actually helps against Tyranitar.

Reflect? Not only are you vulnerable to status (and faster Pokemon if Latias is running the standard 24 EVs), but there's only so much physical hits you can take in the long run.

Substitute? I concur, Substitute is only used for early-game scouting, but eventually others get smart and break the substitute to maintain momentum. What will you do when Scizor, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Blissey, etc. catch on?

So yeah, I get that Latias is a good Pokemon in its own right, but right now, it just seems like the throwaway poster child for fast defensive sweeping. It may be because I've only used Latias during the pre-Deoxys-S/Excadrill period, but quite frankly, I'm not patient enough to use it when there's so many things that have a way around it.

I'd much rather use something that doesn't require so much specific support, so feel free to defend Latias and prove me wrong (because I actually want to use it).

 

[alphatron]

Quite frankly, I find the offensive CM Rain set with thunder, surf, and dragon pulse to be its best set.

But ignoring that, have you tried reflect type? Latias is never breaking specially bulky jirachi, but reflect type gets around most of latias' problems. Tyranitar's crunches are shrugged off by your dark typing. Scizor's bullet punches and u-turns are shrugged off by your steel typing (and you can't get poisoned if you keep this typing either!). Mamoswine won't get anywhere with those nuetral base 40 power ice shards and-

Who am I kidding? You most likely have tried reflect type and it comes with its downsides. No more STAB on dragon pulse, and in some cases, having the typing you gained backfire on you. I find that it works best with magnezone support.

 

[Pocket]

Yea, AccidentalGreed, that's my problem with Latias, too. She is fast with great bulk, and she can sweep teams that under-prepares for her. However, she has so many mons that can outright stop Latias in its path. Without HP Fire, Scizor would be a bitch. Without Substitute, status from special walls are more troublesome (although it's still a losing war against the likes of Chansey and Jirachi). All variants are also stopped cold by Tyranitar. There's nothing redeeming about the tank set.

If you want to use this "defensive" CM Latias, the best thing to do is to pair it with something that can easily exploit the obvious TTar / Chansey / Jirachi switch-in. Say a Dugtrio or CB Terrakion. If Latias is not packing HP Fire, Scizor must be dealt with as well.

I think Roar Latias may provide more utility than HP Fire / Substitute / etc. It provides an essential phazing support, and with SR + Spikes, she can indirectly rack up damage on its walls without depending on CM-boosted Dragon Pulse that are hard to set-up against a prepared team. This Latias is more of a team supporter than a lone sweeper. If you want to try the classic CM Latias, this may be the way to go, although it would require some prediction to work.

There of course other use of Latias. twash's physically defensive Latias is actually bulky enough to set up on certain physical threats, rather than a fast Latias with some respectable bulk and little firepower. If anything, she at least is a team supporter by passing Reflect off. The fact that she can stay in on Scizor's U-turn is pretty darn impressive (still need to look out for SD variants).

There's also RaikouLover's LO Latias tank that possesses the initial firepower to not surrender the offensive momentum, while still maintaining usable bulk that can be Recovered.

Both of these Latias variants sacrifice Speed for more meaningful bulk or power, but that's what it may mean to use Latias :/

 

[shrang]

Bumping to challenge the use of Latias.

So lately, I'm having doubts with using any kind of defensive CM Latias at all. Generally, I don't really like how Latias is being passed around as if it were the greatest "glue sweeper" in existence. There's just so many threats in the OU metagame prepared to face any kind of Latias. Using the standard/defensive CM set means Latias just isn't threatening enough without a few boosts, which isn't good considering even at +2, Latias's offense isn't solid enough to KO some offensive Pokemon. As for Latias's fourth slot, I'm going to lay it all out:

Using Hidden Power Fire? Look out for status (especially Toxic from Toed) and rain Ferrothorn headed your way. It doesn't even scratch steel-types in the rain.

Using Refresh? Cool, you presumably beat Blissey and other stall-based Pokemon. Good luck actually trying to sponge all those U-turns, Body Slams, and Crunches aimed at you.

Surf? Like this actually helps against Tyranitar.

Reflect? Not only are you vulnerable to status (and faster Pokemon if Latias is running the standard 24 EVs), but there's only so much physical hits you can take in the long run.

Substitute? I concur, Substitute is only used for early-game scouting, but eventually others get smart and break the substitute to maintain momentum. What will you do when Scizor, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Blissey, etc. catch on?

So yeah, I get that Latias is a good Pokemon in its own right, but right now, it just seems like the throwaway poster child for fast defensive sweeping. It may be because I've only used Latias during the pre-Deoxys-S/Excadrill period, but quite frankly, I'm not patient enough to use it when there's so many things that have a way around it.

I'd much rather use something that doesn't require so much specific support, so feel free to defend Latias and prove me wrong (because I actually want to use it).

You're missing the point of using Latias. She is not supposed to be something that you just pull out and expect to sweep. I say this to people hating on Virizion all the time. These Pokemon are not immediate sweepers, but defensive Pokemon first and foremost. However, they have the added bonus of being able to sweep when given the opportunity. Basically, it's the same thing as Swords Dance Scizor. You can never pull out Scizor and expect to sweep immediately. However, Scizor has its great typing and respectable bulk and this allows it to sweep into Dragon attacks repeatedly. Same thing with Latias. She can switch into rain teams repeatedly as a defender. Imagine Latias to be like a midfielder who is better at defending than attacking, but can score goals when she gets the chance.